From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 1 02:49:21 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 12:49:21 +1000 Subject: Meeting Message-ID: <1125542961.21443.272.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Same time as usual, #fedora-mktg on freenode THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 1, 15:00 UTC THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 1, 11:00 Eastern US THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 1, 08:00 Western US FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 2, 01:00 Melbourne (UTC+10) There's also growing concern to make this meeting happen weekly, and it will be discussed (and I'm thinking passed too) this week. After which, I'll cease sending out these little meeting reminders -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 1 03:08:33 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 13:08:33 +1000 Subject: Schedule Message-ID: <1125544113.21443.277.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> We have schedule! http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Schedule Its not polished, and there's more to add there. I welcome someone else to help edit it -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Sep 1 03:16:26 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 11:16:26 +0800 Subject: Schedule In-Reply-To: <1125544113.21443.277.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1125544113.21443.277.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1125544587.16409.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi All, The part of the fedora mentors is the Mark on there me? Regards Marc On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 13:08 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > We have schedule! > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Schedule > > Its not polished, and there's more to add there. I welcome someone else > to help edit it From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 1 07:17:11 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:17:11 +1000 Subject: Schedule In-Reply-To: <1125544587.16409.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1125544113.21443.277.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1125544587.16409.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1125559031.3208.11.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 11:16 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > The part of the fedora mentors is the Mark on there me? Yes. You are Mr. Mentor. Do you have a wiki account? Please change accordingly ;) -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Sep 1 07:39:27 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 15:39:27 +0800 Subject: Schedule In-Reply-To: <1125544113.21443.277.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1125544113.21443.277.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1125560367.20038.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> I just changed it slightly from a 'k' to a 'c' Thanks, Marc On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 13:08 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > We have schedule! > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Schedule > > Its not polished, and there's more to add there. I welcome someone else > to help edit it From lxmaier at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 08:20:54 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:20:54 +0200 Subject: Schedule In-Reply-To: <1125560367.20038.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1125544113.21443.277.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1125560367.20038.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <7f617d2705090101201109ed73@mail.gmail.com> Colin, In your schedule it says: "Fix the hole, and finalise the schedule" Please explain--because if you refer to the FUDCon schedule--it has already been finalized. And I do not quite get what "hole" you are referring to :) Cheers, a On 9/1/05, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > I just changed it slightly from a 'k' to a 'c' > > Thanks, > > Marc > On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 13:08 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > We have schedule! > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Schedule > > > > Its not polished, and there's more to add there. I welcome someone else > > to help edit it > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From lxmaier at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 12:07:16 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:07:16 +0200 Subject: FUDCon press release went on wire Message-ID: <7f617d27050901050733306d0@mail.gmail.com> Visit http://www.europe.redhat.com/news/article/491.html to see it live. It also appears in the "News" box on all European Red Hat home pages, such as on: http://europe.redhat.com Congrats everybody, this is another milestone for Fedora! Cheers, a -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 1 14:59:43 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 07:59:43 -0700 Subject: Meeting In-Reply-To: <1125542961.21443.272.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1125542961.21443.272.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1125586783.16212.4.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 12:49 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > There's also growing concern to make this meeting happen weekly, and it > will be discussed (and I'm thinking passed too) this week. After which, > I'll cease sending out these little meeting reminders Sending out meeting minders is important. Without, attendance will drop-off, IME. Couple with an agenda is a good thing. This lets us know what to be prepared to discuss, spurs additional agenda items -before- the meeting, and helps keep us focused. Just my $0.02. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 1 14:51:20 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 00:51:20 +1000 Subject: [Re: Fedora Foundation around the world] In-Reply-To: <1125365229.6466.36.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1125305999.6422.71.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <556f970a050829080423a9d92b@mail.gmail.com> <1125365229.6466.36.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1125586281.3208.95.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Tue, 2005-08-30 at 11:27 +1000, David Barzilay wrote: > That's exactly the point I am trying to make. I was asked for input on > the idea of Community Marketing Contacts being enough for global input. We want a CMC to be of a global nature. I.e. we expect a CMC in /every/ country. Be it RH or not. 2, having a lead and a co-lead will help > Well, how many fluent languages are represented within the current > selected group? What's the possible global coverage by these people? This current group is expected to grow > Whoever the spokespeople are, how do you intend to overcome the language > barriers to keep them well informed? I am presuming that a CMC will be bilingual at least - she will be able to speak English (converse with us) as well as her own community. And if her community is large and wants to converse in their own language, they can get their own mailing list (we have support for this already) > > The important thing is that we are in sync with RH on what the core > > message is, and how to speak about RHs involvement. If we trust the > > message, we can trust the messenger. > > You probably can. But, do you intend to spread the message only in > English? No. But baby steps, we will start with whats most common. After that, translations are dependent on CMCs or their leverages with translators > Who would you trust to adapt the message into different languages, and > make sure it is in sync with RH? We have to localise. And we'd have to hope that its in sync with what we say. How are we going to QA it? Well, this is where we let OSS take its stand, and its called "RH letting go of some control" Some malicious CMC can do something bad, but why volunteer for a job that you want to sabotage? Its like a malicious Fedora Extras contributor we're worried about... all possible, but realistically, let's be a bit more trusting > Thanks for listening! Thanks for sharing! Can we count you as a CMC in your region? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 1 15:01:01 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 01:01:01 +1000 Subject: Meeting In-Reply-To: <1125586783.16212.4.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1125542961.21443.272.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1125586783.16212.4.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1125586861.3208.98.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-09-01 at 07:59 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > > There's also growing concern to make this meeting happen weekly, and it > > will be discussed (and I'm thinking passed too) this week. After which, > > I'll cease sending out these little meeting reminders > > Sending out meeting minders is important. Without, attendance will > drop-off, IME. OK, since this isn't quite a small knit community and something larger than FESCO, yes, weekly reminders are a good idea > Couple with an agenda is a good thing. This lets us know what to be > prepared to discuss, spurs additional agenda items -before- the meeting, > and helps keep us focused. quaid: the schedule should prove to be an agenda of items. and we should go thru them one by one, replan, and add more items to schedule * bytee follows gregdek's amazing FESCO style if folk have issues they wanna bring up, posting before meeting is the way it happens (yes, lazy, 1am copy/paste job) -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 1 16:13:23 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 02:13:23 +1000 Subject: Meeting Minutes - 02/09/2005 Message-ID: <1125591203.3208.160.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Present: Behdad Marc Wiriadisastra (StrikeForce) Patrick Barnes (nman64) Karsten Wade Alex Maier Greg Colin Rahul Sundaram Robert 'bob' Jensen Agenda: * Mentors - Patrick has been contacted, so there's some mild success. Marc will contact everyone by next meeting, and report progress. Do we need a mailing list where all mentor traffic is cc'ed to or does that sequester mentor traffic? Help in public might be intimidating, so 1:1 email might be better. Mentors will provide a list of required reading Action: So, fedora-mentors-list at redhat.com for mentors and mentees to go to if confused. private 1:1 chats can happen, with a summary (faq styled, onus on mentee), to go to fedora-mentors-list. Greg sent for list creation immediately, kudos. Lead: Marc Wiriadisastra Co-Lead: Patrick Barnes * FUDCon schedule is finalised. Rahul will send to other news sites, and create the list of standard sites to send PR to. Why are registrations important?: a) predict number of people who show up b) collect email addresses for future reference * CMC's and trusting translations: We make: 1. Clear positioning statements 2. Empowerment of individuals to be wrong. 3. A strong culture of KNOWING the good word of Fedora. ACTION: Colin to incpororate the "code of good behaviour" into the CMC stub document. ACTION: Greg to request a fedora-cmc-list, private list for CMC's, similar setup to fedora-maintainers ACTION: Add: frequently made mistakes, what to say/what not to say, responses to FAQs, avoid BIG MISTAKES Some BIG MISTAKES (gdk): 1. Directing people to copyright/patent infringing code. 2. Not using the Red Hat name in vain. 3. "don't go sending people to legally infringing content in our name". Be aware of Trademark guidelines and ForbiddenItems (on Wiki). Make sure we STRESS on the BIG MISTAKES Idea: we can request that beginning CMCs CC one of the marketing mentors when they do their evangelizing Karsten asks if CMCs can send people to forbidden stuff in their own name. Marc, Patrick, Alex, says no. Greg mentions that we should wait for the FF to be established. A stray mention of FORBIDDENITEMS right now could expose RH to a shitload of litigation. Let CMCs know the landscape now, and that it will change soon * Swag, skipped again * Logo: Frist draft from a Real Designer(TM) available soon. We can't place a vote on logos, as establishing a brand is something that professionals spend a lot of money to do. Folks will have input, and if a huge majority of folk *hate* the logo, it will be killed * fedoralinks.org has links; does it need further fedora-ification? Poking hrishi/dfong might be useful. Bob mentions 278 votes collected, majority for this site design * Fedora Marketing Kit: different purposes, different kits, but similar message. Define: 0. Those not on Linux 1. Novice end users 2. Developer/sysadmin types 3. Potential individual contributors - no single path/defined way of doing "cool stuff" for FC. HelpWanted page helps? 4. Potential business contributors * Meeting is now weekly, not bi-weekly. See you all next week -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Sep 1 18:19:44 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:19:44 -0400 Subject: Meeting Minutes - 02/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1125591203.3208.160.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1125591203.3208.160.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <556f970a050901111941a59988@mail.gmail.com> On 9/1/05, Colin Charles wrote: > * Logo: Frist draft from a Real Designer(TM) available soon. We can't > place a vote on logos, as establishing a brand is something that > professionals spend a lot of money to do. Folks will have input, and if > a huge majority of folk *hate* the logo, it will be killed That sounds exactly like a vote to me. Does this actually mean we won't be shown (m)any variants unless the first attempts are quashed? --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 1 19:08:42 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 15:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meeting Minutes - 02/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <556f970a050901111941a59988@mail.gmail.com> References: <1125591203.3208.160.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <556f970a050901111941a59988@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > On 9/1/05, Colin Charles wrote: > > > * Logo: First draft from a Real Designer(TM) available soon. We can't > > place a vote on logos, as establishing a brand is something that > > professionals spend a lot of money to do. Folks will have input, and > > if a huge majority of folk *hate* the logo, it will be killed > > That sounds exactly like a vote to me. Does this actually mean we won't be > shown (m)any variants unless the first attempts are quashed? It means we'll start with a professionally designed logo concept and start the discussions from there. And when I say "professionally designed," I mean "designed by someone who has been following the list for weeks, has seen the discussions and the other logo ideas, has mapped out the messages that we're trying to communicate with the Fedora brand, and has come up with some pretty good stuff, and is working on a bit of polish yet." >From there, the discussion begins. Improvements/changes will be considered. If it's universally hated, we'll go back do the drawing board. And bearing in mind that Fedora is a meritocracy as well as a democracy, the voice of the Real Designer (tm) will carry more weight as we seek to build a consensus. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 1 23:12:15 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:12:15 -0700 Subject: [Re: Fedora Foundation around the world] In-Reply-To: <1125586281.3208.95.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1125305999.6422.71.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <556f970a050829080423a9d92b@mail.gmail.com> <1125365229.6466.36.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <1125586281.3208.95.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1125616335.16212.44.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-09-02 at 00:51 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > No. But baby steps, we will start with whats most common. After that, > translations are dependent on CMCs or their leverages with translators There seems to be _a_lot_ of passion for open source within the translation community. CMC work is a fantastic way for translators to get more involved in helping and growing the community. As we all can attest to, the community is much more than the bits in CVS. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From barzilay at redhat.com Thu Sep 1 23:48:54 2005 From: barzilay at redhat.com (David Barzilay) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 09:48:54 +1000 Subject: [Re: Fedora Foundation around the world] In-Reply-To: <1125586281.3208.95.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1125305999.6422.71.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <556f970a050829080423a9d92b@mail.gmail.com> <1125365229.6466.36.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <1125586281.3208.95.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1125618535.4443.19.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> Hi All! A few comments below... On Fri, 2005-09-02 at 00:51 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > On Tue, 2005-08-30 at 11:27 +1000, David Barzilay wrote: > > > That's exactly the point I am trying to make. I was asked for input on > > the idea of Community Marketing Contacts being enough for global input. > > We want a CMC to be of a global nature. I.e. we expect a CMC in /every/ > country. Be it RH or not. 2, having a lead and a co-lead will help > > > Well, how many fluent languages are represented within the current > > selected group? What's the possible global coverage by these people? > > This current group is expected to grow Great! I thought so ;) > > > Whoever the spokespeople are, how do you intend to overcome the language > > barriers to keep them well informed? > > I am presuming that a CMC will be bilingual at least - she will be able > to speak English (converse with us) as well as her own community. And if > her community is large and wants to converse in their own language, they > can get their own mailing list (we have support for this already) Yep! FWIW, we already have several existing mailing lists for translation purposes (see http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/translations/) > > > The important thing is that we are in sync with RH on what the core > > > message is, and how to speak about RHs involvement. If we trust the > > > message, we can trust the messenger. > > > > You probably can. But, do you intend to spread the message only in > > English? > > No. But baby steps, we will start with whats most common. After that, > translations are dependent on CMCs or their leverages with translators What if the CMCs were one or two translators within their already established communities? As I said before, I'm up for it, and guess some other members of my team might also be interested.. > > > Who would you trust to adapt the message into different languages, and > > make sure it is in sync with RH? > > We have to localise. And we'd have to hope that its in sync with what we > say. How are we going to QA it? Well, this is where we let OSS take its > stand, and its called "RH letting go of some control" > > Some malicious CMC can do something bad, but why volunteer for a job > that you want to sabotage? Its like a malicious Fedora Extras > contributor we're worried about... all possible, but realistically, > let's be a bit more trusting Totally agree. I am just suggesting to face Fedora's worldwide marketing challenges on a more professional basis. I trust many of the contributors, but realistically I cannot always *count on* them... > > > Thanks for listening! > > Thanks for sharing! Can we count you as a CMC in your region? Thumbs up! -- David Barzilay Brazilian Portuguese Technical Translator Red Hat Asia-Pacific From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Sep 2 03:42:47 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:42:47 +0800 Subject: Meeting Minutes - 02/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1125591203.3208.160.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1125591203.3208.160.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1125632567.2813.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> > Agenda: > > * Mentors - Patrick has been contacted, so there's some mild success. > Marc will contact everyone by next meeting, and report progress. Do we > need a mailing list where all mentor traffic is cc'ed to or does that > sequester mentor traffic? Help in public might be intimidating, so 1:1 > email might be better. Mentors will provide a list of required reading > > Action: So, fedora-mentors-list at redhat.com for mentors and mentees to go > to if confused. private 1:1 chats can happen, with a summary (faq > styled, onus on mentee), to go to fedora-mentors-list. Greg sent for > list creation immediately, kudos. > > Lead: Marc Wiriadisastra > Co-Lead: Patrick Barnes I'm in the process of drafting the email since I want to get my points concisely across to the relevant people and so that we can get at least a start on the process. Thanks Greg for getting that request process so soon. Regards Marc From byte at aeon.com.my Fri Sep 2 03:39:51 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:39:51 +1000 Subject: UK Linux & Open Source Award Message-ID: <1125632392.3208.228.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Being presented at LWE, at the same time FUDCon is running, visit: http://www.linuxawards.co.uk/component/option,com_philaform/Itemid,35/form_id,1/ Thats the voting page, so we might consider Fedora to be voted.... It'd be nice if we "won" something while FUDCon was happening Thoughts? Or submit your votes! -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br Tue Sep 6 04:58:12 2005 From: rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br (rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 00:58:12 -0400 Subject: BRASIL - FEDORA CORE Message-ID: <20050906005812.6x686esxd3scckkk@www.sagraluzzatto.com.br> Ser? que ? possivel conseguir junto a Red hat apoio financeiro para divulga??o do Fedora Core aqui no Brasil? Estou pensando em participar de alguins eventos e fazer material de divulga??o do Fedora (cds, panfletos, camisas). Tenho o meu grupo de estudos aqui na faculdade e agora como ja me formei, queria me dedicar mais aos projetos de software livre. Seria interessante conseguir cds do fedora e distribuir para as turmas dos primeiros periodos da faculdade. Seria muito interessante isso... daria uma grande divugla??o. ASS: Rodrigo Padula Brasil - www.gunix.com.br From nman64 at n-man.com Tue Sep 6 07:19:52 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 02:19:52 -0500 Subject: BRASIL - FEDORA CORE In-Reply-To: <20050906005812.6x686esxd3scckkk@www.sagraluzzatto.com.br> References: <20050906005812.6x686esxd3scckkk@www.sagraluzzatto.com.br> Message-ID: <431D4318.3030503@n-man.com> rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br wrote: >Ser? que ? possivel conseguir junto a Red hat apoio financeiro para divulga??o >do Fedora Core aqui no Brasil? > > First, the language of this list is English. It's not that we don't support the international community, but it is a common language for the small number of contributors we have. We are, of course, interested in spreading Fedora all over the world, however, the financial backing for marketing is limited. You may be able to get limited sponsorship for something like a FUDCon. Funding for other marketing materials simply isn't there yet. Fedora Marketing is in its early stages, so it may be a while before we can do that sort of marketing. >Estou pensando em participar de alguins eventos e fazer material de divulga??o >do Fedora (cds, panfletos, camisas). > > We are planning on producing marketing kits and finding marketing contacts around the world. If you are interested, that's great. You should watch this list and perhaps stop in and listen to our weekly meetings. We don't have a solid process for translation, yet, and we haven't yet produced any CD labels, pamplets, or shirts. We will welcome your assistance in marketing, but we're still just getting started. As long as you follow the Trademark Guidlines posted at fedora.redhat.com, you are welcome to produce marketing materials of your own in the meantime. >Tenho o meu grupo de estudos aqui na faculdade e agora como ja me formei, >queria me dedicar mais aos projetos de software livre. > > We're glad you've chosen Fedora as a venue to participate in the open source community. Please check out the pages at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ including the HelpWanted page for more information about how you can participate in the various Fedora subprojects. >Seria interessante conseguir cds do fedora e distribuir para as turmas dos >primeiros periodos da faculdade. > >Seria muito interessante isso... daria uma grande divugla??o. > > > You are welcome to create your own CDs or order them from an online vendor in order to distribute them. Unfortunately, we cannot provide any funding for that effort. Handing out CD-Rs with Fedora at your college would be great. Work is also being done on a LiveCD project. If you'd like to give that a try, it would be a great way to introduce others to Fedora. They can just pop 1 CD in and boot Fedora to try it out. Check out http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD for more information. >ASS: Rodrigo Padula >Brasil - www.gunix.com.br > > > Welcome to the Fedora community. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From barzilay at redhat.com Wed Sep 7 00:39:51 2005 From: barzilay at redhat.com (David Barzilay) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 10:39:51 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: =?iso-8859-7?q?Novell=A2s?= open source effort looks more aggressive than Fedora] Message-ID: <1126053591.4672.0.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> FYI Best, -- David Barzilay Brazilian Portuguese Technical Translator Red Hat Asia-Pacific -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Arman Assa Subject: Novell?s open source effort looks more aggressive than Fedora Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 10:08:16 -0400 Size: 3952 URL: From barzilay at redhat.com Wed Sep 7 03:51:10 2005 From: barzilay at redhat.com (David Barzilay) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 13:51:10 +1000 Subject: Red Hat Establishes Fedora Mirror Site in China Message-ID: <1126065070.4672.18.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> http://www.apac.redhat.com/news/article/346.html Best, -- David Barzilay Brazilian Portuguese Technical Translator Red Hat Asia-Pacific From rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br Wed Sep 7 05:48:22 2005 From: rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br (Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 02:48:22 -0300 Subject: Fedora LUGs Message-ID: <431E7F26.2090405@sagraluzzatto.com.br> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Name: GUNIX LINUX URL: http://www.gunix.com.br Language: PT-BR Contact Name: Rodrigo Padula Contact Email: rodrigopadula at gmail.com Location: BRAZIL(Juiz de Fora - MG) Phone: 032-88186988 Affiliation:Affiliation Bug Triage Volunteer : Yes - -- +================================================+ RODRIGO PADULA DE OLIVEIRA (o- BACHAREL EM SISTEMAS DE INFORMA??O //\ FACULDADE METODISTA GRANBERY - FMG V_/_ PostgreSQL - PHP - Linux +================================================+ Membro Fundador do Gunix Linux http://www.gunix.com.br -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDHn8m8arYxsJpZ0URAnFHAKC3vzd7RzSqgwKEDThbDfM9m0c27QCfcl4k PBKJ2+GJ54h8oTwkBoJC2bA= =JaJK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Sep 7 05:51:47 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 08:51:47 +0300 Subject: Red Hat Establishes Fedora Mirror Site in China In-Reply-To: <1126065070.4672.18.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1126065070.4672.18.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <431E7FF3.8070701@nicubunu.ro> David Barzilay wrote: > http://www.apac.redhat.com/news/article/346.html Is there any reason why http://www.fedoraproject.org.cn/ look like the old and ugly http://www.fedoraproject.org/, instead of the current layout? -- nicu my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From gdk at redhat.com Wed Sep 7 13:18:01 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 09:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora LUGs In-Reply-To: <431E7F26.2090405@sagraluzzatto.com.br> References: <431E7F26.2090405@sagraluzzatto.com.br> Message-ID: Is this a LUG to be added to the wiki? --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Name: GUNIX LINUX > URL: http://www.gunix.com.br > Language: PT-BR > Contact Name: Rodrigo Padula > Contact Email: rodrigopadula at gmail.com > Location: BRAZIL(Juiz de Fora - MG) > Phone: 032-88186988 > Affiliation:Affiliation > Bug Triage Volunteer : Yes > > - -- > +================================================+ > RODRIGO PADULA DE OLIVEIRA > (o- BACHAREL EM SISTEMAS DE INFORMA??O > //\ FACULDADE METODISTA GRANBERY - FMG > V_/_ > PostgreSQL - PHP - Linux > +================================================+ > > Membro Fundador do Gunix Linux > http://www.gunix.com.br > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFDHn8m8arYxsJpZ0URAnFHAKC3vzd7RzSqgwKEDThbDfM9m0c27QCfcl4k > PBKJ2+GJ54h8oTwkBoJC2bA= > =JaJK > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br Wed Sep 7 14:04:34 2005 From: rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br (Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 11:04:34 -0300 Subject: Fedora LUGs In-Reply-To: References: <431E7F26.2090405@sagraluzzatto.com.br> Message-ID: <431EF372.7000004@sagraluzzatto.com.br> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Yes!!! Please add this LUG!!! Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Is this a LUG to be added to the wiki? > > --g > > _____________________ ____________________________________________ > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > On Wed, 7 Sep 2005, Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira wrote: > > > Name: GUNIX LINUX > URL: http://www.gunix.com.br > Language: PT-BR > Contact Name: Rodrigo Padula > Contact Email: rodrigopadula at gmail.com > Location: BRAZIL(Juiz de Fora - MG) > Phone: 032-88186988 > Affiliation:Affiliation > Bug Triage Volunteer : Yes > - -- Fedora-marketing-list mailing list Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list - -- +================================================+ RODRIGO PADULA DE OLIVEIRA (o- BACHAREL EM SISTEMAS DE INFORMA??O //\ FACULDADE METODISTA GRANBERY - FMG V_/_ PostgreSQL - PHP - Linux +================================================+ Membro Fundador do Gunix Linux http://www.gunix.com.br -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDHvNy8arYxsJpZ0URAmQLAJ9/PfbkWLSbLjSIvO7TyY9po6zqRQCgot6N PJxbpIXpjuJmgzyK64ub3X8= =NNKP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Sep 7 15:04:29 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 20:34:29 +0530 Subject: FUDCon London 2005 news Message-ID: <431F017D.1020701@redhat.com> Hi http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/09/03/1716218&from=rss http://linuxtoday.com/developer/2005090600926NWRHEV http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/42599/ regards Rahul From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 8 02:24:15 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:24:15 +1000 Subject: Red Hat Establishes Fedora Mirror Site in China In-Reply-To: <431E7FF3.8070701@nicubunu.ro> References: <1126065070.4672.18.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <431E7FF3.8070701@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <1126146255.3931.350.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 08:51 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > David Barzilay wrote: > > http://www.apac.redhat.com/news/article/346.html > > Is there any reason why http://www.fedoraproject.org.cn/ look like > the > old and ugly http://www.fedoraproject.org/, instead of the current > layout? >From what I can see, it just links back to the fp.o site. Now, I have a few questions: 1. was RH ever going to ask/consult/tell us about fedoraproject.org.cn /before/ its inception? I find this lack of communication not positive 2. Is the content there going to be localised? Last I checked, RH Beijing was hiring ~80 staff (earlier this year), so how important is RHEL/Fedora there? 3. Competition from Sun Wah Linux and Red Flag linux (I think they're now a fedora/chinese spinoff) is rife. Thoughts? Regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Sep 8 06:39:43 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:09:43 +0530 Subject: Red Hat Establishes Fedora Mirror Site in China In-Reply-To: <1126146255.3931.350.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126065070.4672.18.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <431E7FF3.8070701@nicubunu.ro> <1126146255.3931.350.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <431FDCAF.2020601@redhat.com> Hi > >Now, I have a few questions: > >1. was RH ever going to ask/consult/tell us about >fedoraproject.org.cn /before/ its inception? > >I find this lack of communication not positive > > Agreed. >2. Is the content there going to be localised? Last I checked, RH >Beijing was hiring ~80 staff (earlier this year), so how important is >RHEL/Fedora there? > > >3. Competition from Sun Wah Linux and Red Flag linux (I think they're >now a fedora/chinese spinoff) is rife. Thoughts? > > Not many ideas but I will share some information. Miracle Corporation (Japan) , Red Flag (China) and Haansoft (Korea) have formed http://asianux.com. Its a Red Hat Enterprise Linux spinoff with a heavily themed Anaconda and a general Windows like look and feel. These along with Turbolinux seem to be popular in this region. SCIM input method ( in rawhide) with a strong native language support should put Fedora on par Download http://www.asianux.com/download.php Some articles and screenshots http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20050929#1 http://distroreviews.com/index.php?view=140 http://lwn.net/Articles/149978/ http://shots.osdir.com/slideshows/slideshow.php?release=428&slide=22 regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 8 07:04:32 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 00:04:32 -0700 Subject: Red Hat Establishes Fedora Mirror Site in China In-Reply-To: <1126146255.3931.350.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126065070.4672.18.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <431E7FF3.8070701@nicubunu.ro> <1126146255.3931.350.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1126163072.6907.232.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 12:24 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > 2. Is the content there going to be localised? Last I checked, RH > Beijing was hiring ~80 staff (earlier this year), so how important is > RHEL/Fedora there? They could start by having the press release localized into English. It reads as if it was in Chinese first and had an incomplete translation to English. :) http://www.apac.redhat.com/news/article/346.html - Karsten, who gets snarky when people don't get stuff QA'd by the editors -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From lxmaier at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 10:52:43 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:52:43 +0400 Subject: FUDCon London 2005 news In-Reply-To: <431F017D.1020701@redhat.com> References: <431F017D.1020701@redhat.com> Message-ID: <7f617d270509080352183084a9@mail.gmail.com> Thank you Rahul! Guys, if you see more FUDCon coverage, please forward to the list! Cheers, a On 9/7/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/09/03/1716218&from=rss > http://linuxtoday.com/developer/2005090600926NWRHEV > http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/42599/ > > regards > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From lxmaier at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 11:21:06 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:21:06 +0200 Subject: The big What-Why-How Message-ID: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> Hello gang, >From the discussion a few weeks earlier it became evident that the landing page of FP.org (and possibly F.R.c) needs to be re-worked to answer three questions: What is Fedora? Why use Fedora? How to get Fedora? Stuart Ellis, Paul Frields, and I have discussed these questions and here are the results. What is Fedora? --------------- What do we want to achieve? To put it in as few words as possible, we want world domination for Fedora and Open Source software. If we want more people all over the world to adopt Fedora, we need to focus on the distro and not on the project when answering this question. Mozilla project has very wisely decided to let Firefox take the front page, because the overwhelming majority of the page visits come from the folks who want to download and install Firefox. Of course, we also want more people to contribute to the project, so a link "Want to contribute?" shall be placed prominently on the page for all those who came to help out. The page to which this link will lead can elaborate on the project specs and objectives. Why use Fedora? --------------- While discussing the "Why?", we agreed that the overall desktop experience is far better this side of the fence for people who just want to use the computer. So our objective is to make this argument strongly in order to convince the people who don't want to spend time fixing stuff that should just run to try out Fedora--and we might become more popular than we dare to dream now :) Most folks are tied to Windows by only very few applications, and a comparative overview like this will help them see that they will not have to miss their apps if they switched to Fedora. OO.o <--> MS Office Evince <--> Acrobat Inkscape <--> CorelDRAW, Freehand, Illustrator xchat2 <--> mIRC GIMP <--> Photoshop, Fireworks Scribus <--> PageMaker Archive Manager <--> WinZip GnuCash <--> Quicken Then we could also have four boxes with four main selling points for Fedora: 1. Better Desktop Experience - One-pass Install: from blank machine to fully working desktop in under an hour - office suite, PDF reader etc. all part of the standard install. - No Hassling: No product activation or nagware, no upgrade costs or other hidden fees. - Peace of Mind: no AV or anti-spyware required, one update command to keep your entire system safe (proprietary OSes have multiple updaters for different apps - major pain). - Unobtrusive Desktop: all the features you need, without getting in your way. - Fully Productive: *unrestricted* Office Suite that requires no add-ons with built-in PDF output, fully-functioning database support included, XML as standard. 2. Better Admin Experience: - Instant secure remote access: SSH installed by default, just tick the box to open the port. - Elegant config tools that work: designed to help the admin rather than override him. - One-touch software installation: Install extra software with just a single command, and no additional setup. - Advanced Configurations without hassle: Powerful installer. - Easy and reliable automated deployment: Anaconda beats everything else. - As many systems as you need: Xen VMs (current version doesn't work well on laptop hardware, so cannot be sold too aggressively). - Easy remote user support: No-hassle desktop sharing. - Fewer phone calls !: Usable and reliable desktop means less problems. 3. Better Developer Experience: - Just Right: Cutting-edge but not bleeding edge software. - Unequivocal Java support: Free Java stuff (GCJ, Eclipse). - Full AMP ready to go. - Python-friendly: Fedora tools written in Python, and Python bindings for system-level stuff. - Interact directly with the leading Open Source developers of Red Hat and the Fedora community. 4. Better Linux Dirstribution: - Fedora v. Ubuntu: every desktop app we ship, apart from Evince. Doesn't have SELinux or Xen built-in, nor a firewall by default (strategy is to have no active network services by default). - Standard PC OEM preload: Windows XP Home SP2 with IE and Media Player, MS Works and MS Word bundle, probably some form of DVD play-back, CD writing, Acrobat Reader, AV, a JRE and various crap utilities few people use. - Enthusiast/IT Pro build: Windows XP Pro SP2 with IE and Media Player, MS Office Pro, possibly Firefox, a graphics package, Nero CD writing software, DVD play-back, some Zip utility, an FTP client, AV, anti-spyware, Acrobat Reader, a JRE. - Mac: OS X 10.4 with Safari Web browser plus iTunes and nagware version of QuickTime, iLife suite, Apple Works office suite, Apple DVD Player, Zip utility and limited CD writing in the OS, Preview PDF Reader, Apple-ized JRE, BSD userland. Usually, if a regular home user like your Mom switches from MS to Linux, they do it because someone they know (let's call him Johnny) has recommended Linux to them. If we want Fedora to spread, we need to reach this guy Johnny who will then make his Mom and Pop finally ditch M$. We can effectively promote the idea of using Fedora as the main OS to Johnny by pointing out features that make it less hassle for him to maintain other people's boxes as well. Obviously, though, there is also a contingent of people who have run Linux distributions before, and just want a download link. A side link stating "Linux user looking to download? Click here" should work. When we come to media and hardware support, we should make a lot of positive statements, especially in the media area--say something along the lines of "We support a number of open media standards and fedora has media player XYZ in a standard installation. Convert your CDs to playable media formats such as OGG and WAV all you want with provided Sound Juicer application!" How to get Fedora ----------------- We decided that the existing page is way too technical (and thus scary) to the newbie users. This means that all stuff technical should be removed from the download page, and moved to the specialized download help pages for those who want to read it. Here are a few examples of what we mean: Links like that: http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/4/i386/iso/ http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/4/x86_64/iso/ http://download.fedora.redhat.com/pub/fedora/linux/core/4/ppc/iso/ Could be made human-readable like this: "Fedora for Intel i386 -- if you are not sure what chip your system has, this is your best bet" -- [pilfered from Ubuntu download page http://ubuntu.hands.com/releases/hoary/] "Fedora for x64 architecture" "Fedora for Power PC -- e.g. for your Mac" We can safely assume that the majority of PC users out there have no idea there are several processor architectures and which one their machine has. But we can also assume that they all will be able to locate an "Intel inside" sticker on their computer. Here's one more. Instructions like this can scare away the people who do not know whether they actually know what they are doing: 1. Understand What You Are Doing 2. Make Room on Your System 3. Download the Files You Need 4. Write Files to Media 5. Boot From the CD-ROM or Boot Diskette to Run the Installation Program 6. Check for Updates 7. Get Help If You Need It We could either move them to the installation help page (to be created) or rewrite them along these lines: 1. Back up your data 2. Read Installation Help 3. Download the files and write them to media (e.g. burn them on CDs) 4. Boot from your CD-ROM or Boot Diskette to begin installation and follow instruction on screen And finally, look at this: For x86-compatible (32-bit): FC4-i386-DVD.iso (sha1sum: 2f151a7329846da685c2a72fcb40eba3e8a355a0) For x86_64 (64-bit AMD64, EM64T): FC4-x86_64-DVD.iso (sha1sum: 2f166c7cff4e7334744d48e642b3287693d982ed) For PowerPC (32-bit and 64-bit Macintosh, 64-bit pSeries): FC4-ppc-DVD.iso (sha1sum: 7bb39bb530ad0954f8faea585ebea23f40d5a010) This stuff should most definitely live on a dedicated page. I know folks who looked at our download page, panicked, and called me for help. I am kidding you not. The download links must be placed as far at the top of the page as possible for the benefit of experienced users, too, who know what they are doing and just want to grab the ISOs and go. Another example worth following: on the landing page for getfirefox.com and on the upper right most prominently placed they have a link to a package that fits your OS and architecture. Underneath it there was a text link saying "Other Systems and Languages." Now we have so many smart folks in the project, and we trust at least one of them will be able to write a script which would give people a link to the download page for their architecture. Once the person has followed the link, they will get to a page that gives them a selection of all possible download options for the ISOs they want: - download from Fedora site (slower, might take hours during peak download times) - download from mirror in Europe - download from mirror in Australia - yadda yadda yadda Once they are on the right page from which the packages they need are linked, there will be less confusion, event if we list five or more alternatives and explain the benefits of using an alternative site. We should also encourage more people to use BitTorrent and to help out by hosting. We might consider building a separate page for this information to live on, in order not to clutter the download page. We also suggest to create a printer-friendly "cheat sheet" that people could download along with the ISOs - we could have the same content on a secondary Web page as well. It will contain basic installation instructions and some general troubleshooting too, so that if something goes awfully wrong during the install, they can look up most crucial things. ----------------- So that's basically it. The floor is open for discussion. If I distorted the content in any way--Paul and Stuart will correct me. Thanks a a -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Sep 8 12:02:14 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 17:32:14 +0530 Subject: FUDCon London 2005 news In-Reply-To: <7f617d270509080352183084a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <431F017D.1020701@redhat.com> <7f617d270509080352183084a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43202846.9070100@redhat.com> Alex Maier wrote: >Thank you Rahul! > >Guys, if you see more FUDCon coverage, please forward to the list! > >Cheers, >a > These were news bits I submitted to the sites. I will send in a detailed list of sites one could send such announcements to later on regards Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 12:54:06 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 08:54:06 -0400 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> On 9/8/05, Alex Maier wrote: > What do we want to achieve? To put it in as few words as possible, we > want world domination for Fedora and Open Source software. Must we attempt to dominate? Can't we just all get along in a nice big open source ecosystem of different interoperable solutions? > > - Fedora v. Ubuntu: I would strongly discourage making direct comparative statements between fedora and other popular fast release schedule distros. You run a very very real risk of spreading misinformation about the other distros that we as a community have less overall experience with and we end up looking bad in the process. You make a biased mis-representative comparison and people's BS detectors go off. You make an obvious sin of omission or fabrication and people are going to call you out on it..publicly. Avoid direct comparisons at all costs....especially with the other quickly moving distro projects, its a changing landscale and you run the very real risk of being bitten by a lack of experience and out of date information with what you are comparing against as the other distro evolves in parallel to Fedora. You want to make a comparison to slow release cycle variants..I'm okay with that. But I don't think you want to get into the business of trying to revise information based on a shallow understanding of ubuntu every 6 months. I don't want to see anything approaching the grotesque release review hatchet jobs I see floating around in the techpress sitting on any project controlled communication channels. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 8 13:43:51 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Red Hat Establishes Fedora Mirror Site in China In-Reply-To: <1126146255.3931.350.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126065070.4672.18.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <431E7FF3.8070701@nicubunu.ro> <1126146255.3931.350.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Sep 2005, Colin Charles wrote: > On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 08:51 +0300, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > David Barzilay wrote: > > > http://www.apac.redhat.com/news/article/346.html > > > > Is there any reason why http://www.fedoraproject.org.cn/ look like the > > old and ugly http://www.fedoraproject.org/, instead of the current > > layout? > > >From what I can see, it just links back to the fp.o site. > > Now, I have a few questions: > > 1. was RH ever going to ask/consult/tell us about > fedoraproject.org.cn /before/ its inception? > > I find this lack of communication not positive. I've said this before and I'll say it again: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. The fact is that the Chinese organization runs, as near as I can tell, completely autonomously. They wanted to have a local mirror, so they created one. It's not the prettiest thing in the world, to be sure, but it does the job -- by (a) putting up a local mirror, and (b) linking back to the authoritative content at fp.o with *every other link*. > 2. Is the content there going to be localised? Last I checked, RH > Beijing was hiring ~80 staff (earlier this year), so how important is > RHEL/Fedora there? We're trying to get in touch with the Chinese folks to understand what their plans are. > 3. Competition from Sun Wah Linux and Red Flag linux (I think they're > now a fedora/chinese spinoff) is rife. Thoughts? My first thought is that we need a Chinese CMC. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 8 13:52:21 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:52:21 +1000 Subject: Red Hat Establishes Fedora Mirror Site in China In-Reply-To: References: <1126065070.4672.18.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <431E7FF3.8070701@nicubunu.ro> <1126146255.3931.350.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1126187541.3931.410.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 09:43 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > I find this lack of communication not positive. > > I've said this before and I'll say it again: > > Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. Heh. Yeah, on a another list ;-) Sorry! Tired brain and headaches getting the better of me > We're trying to get in touch with the Chinese folks to understand what > their plans are. Cool > > 3. Competition from Sun Wah Linux and Red Flag linux (I think they're > > now a fedora/chinese spinoff) is rife. Thoughts? > > My first thought is that we need a Chinese CMC. Speaking of which, while offline (Internet costs $15 for about an hr here at a cafe!), I came up with: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/CommunityMarketingContacts Flame on :) -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 8 13:55:21 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:55:21 +1000 Subject: Meeting... Message-ID: <1126187721.3931.416.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Same time as usual, #fedora-mktg on freenode THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 8, 15:00 UTC THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 8, 11:00 Eastern US THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 8, 08:00 Western US FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 9, 01:00 Melbourne (UTC+10) Agenda is on the schedule page (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Schedule) -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 8 13:59:36 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 23:59:36 +1000 Subject: Regrets Message-ID: <1126187976.3931.420.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> I regret that I may not make today's meeting, due to weakening health (think headache, bones aching, etc... caused by recent hobby) In lieu, Greg or Rahul will run/chair it. I understand that Jack (co-Lead) is also recovering from being sick, so send him your well wishes -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From caillon at redhat.com Thu Sep 8 14:39:18 2005 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 10:39:18 -0400 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43204D16.5010003@redhat.com> On 09/08/2005 07:21 AM, Alex Maier wrote: >Another example worth following: on the landing page for >getfirefox.com and on the upper >right most prominently placed they have a link to a package that fits >your OS and architecture. Underneath it there was a text link saying >"Other Systems and Languages." > >Now we have so many smart folks in the project, and we trust at least >one of them will be able to write a script which would give people a >link to the download page for their architecture. > > Why not first simply talk to OSDL, the guys at OSU who wrote the stuff the Mozilla Foundation is using? I've got a contact I can tap into or provide in lower band. Not sure if anything will come of it, but it surely can't hurt to ask. From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Thu Sep 8 15:14:28 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 08:14:28 -0700 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126192468.12125.25.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 13:21 +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > Hello gang, > > >From the discussion a few weeks earlier it became evident that the > landing page of FP.org (and possibly F.R.c) needs to be re-worked to > answer three questions: > > What is Fedora? > Why use Fedora? > How to get Fedora? > > Stuart Ellis, Paul Frields, and I have discussed these questions and > here are the results. > > What is Fedora? > --------------- > > What do we want to achieve? To put it in as few words as possible, we > want world domination for Fedora and Open Source software. If we want > more people all over the world to adopt Fedora, we need to focus on > the distro and not on the project when answering this question. [snip] > While discussing the "Why?", we agreed that the overall desktop > experience is far better this side of the fence for people who just > want to use the computer. So our objective is to make this argument > strongly in order to convince the people who don't want to spend time > fixing stuff that should just run to try out Fedora--and we might > become more popular than we dare to dream now :) > From reading through this I am afraid of seeing Fedora oversold. Here's an ongoing thread at fedora-devel to illustrate: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2005-September/msg00120.html We are currently _not_ the ideal distro for Mom and Pop desktop users. (Whether we're the best even if we're not ideal, I do not know. I have too little experience with other distros to say for sure.) Our development model isn't "fix what's broken" but "upgrade what's broken". This fixes problems but introduces new bugs somewhere else. Moreover, instead of downloading small fixes to repair problems, users have to download a whole new release in order to get the upgrade to their specific problems. If we are targetting Mom and Pop I think our development model will have to adjust. > Most folks are tied to Windows by only very few applications, and a > comparative overview like this will help them see that they will not > have to miss their apps if they switched to Fedora. > > OO.o <--> MS Office > Evince <--> Acrobat > Inkscape <--> CorelDRAW, Freehand, Illustrator > xchat2 <--> mIRC > GIMP <--> Photoshop, Fireworks > Scribus <--> PageMaker > Archive Manager <--> WinZip > GnuCash <--> Quicken > [snip] > Usually, if a regular home user like your Mom switches from MS to > Linux, they do it because someone they know (let's call him Johnny) > has recommended Linux to them. If we want Fedora to spread, we need to > reach this guy Johnny who will then make his Mom and Pop finally ditch > M$. > As a "Johnny", I realized that this list is often incomplete. It is often possible to analyze initial needs and convince Mom and Pop to convert based on this. But they soon decide they want to use a new Windows-only application which may not have an analog in free software (or must be a specific program to match with work requirements.) [snip] > When we come to media and hardware support, we should make a lot of > positive statements, especially in the media area--say something along > the lines of "We support a number of open media standards and fedora > has media player XYZ in a standard installation. Convert your CDs to > playable media formats such as OGG and WAV all you want with provided > Sound Juicer application!" > If our target is Mom and Pop or Johnny, then we should say we support OGG out of the box. Proprietary codecs are available from third parties. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Thu Sep 8 17:26:39 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:26:39 -0500 Subject: Meeting Minutes - 2005-09-08 Message-ID: <4320744F.80000@n-man.com> Present: Christopher Aillon (caillon) Greg DeKoenigsberg (gregdek) Rahul Sundaram (mether) Patrick Barnes (nman64) Karsten Wade (quaid) Bob Jensen (StillBob) Notes: * Mentors - Marc has sent out emails, only Rahul has replied so far. fedora-mentors-list created. Greg waiting for address from Marc to hand over admin. * SOP for Publicizing Events - Rahul to send report to list. Doc to be a list of links and addresses for reporting to start. More to come later. * Fedora CMCs - Greg has created a list and will hand admin to Colin. We need to recruit CMCs. Any thoughts there? well probably can get a list of users in the fedora list who proactively help other users and invite them to participate Good idea. So. Time to push bytee into leading very active recruitment for CMCs. :) We should get in touch with Fedora-based distros and ask them to collaborate. ACTION: Rahul to comb distrowatch and contact non-commercial Fedora-based distros. Commercial distros to come later. * Logo - Still waiting. * Fedora Marketing Kits - Not ready to build yet, but follow discussion on thread from Alex. * Legacy in Anaconda - Not going to be enabled. Legacy section in release notes? * Vendor List - Add to discussion next week. how about getting a list of people who are doing different things with fedora such as? selling fedora cds, customising it "supporting" it in one way or other Just so long as someone *owns* this kind of list and *maintains* it. This kind of info doesn't update itself, and quickly gets stale. * f.r.c - Needs cleanup, removal of stale material. ACTION: Bob to start fixing up f.r.c and create mockup for fp.org. fp.org to be prettied up and made primary site. Need to get some sort of access from Seth Vidal for maintenance. See you all next week! -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From stuart at elsn.org Thu Sep 8 18:43:44 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:43:44 +0100 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 08:54 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/8/05, Alex Maier wrote: > > What do we want to achieve? To put it in as few words as possible, we > > want world domination for Fedora and Open Source software. > Must we attempt to dominate? I guess that I was actually the dissenting opinion...I don't think that I'd say dominate, either. It didn't directly come up in discussion, but my personal take is that Fedora is currently aimed at more specialized needs, and that actually makes us less suited to being a "mainstream" system, if that is an aim. > Can't we just all get along in a nice big > open source ecosystem of different interoperable solutions? I do think that it important to differentiate between solutions, although I'd shy away from using terms like "competition". Most of the Fedora software list is now the same as a number of other distributions, so that makes explaining what is unique about Fedora is harder. > > - Fedora v. Ubuntu: > > I would strongly discourage making direct comparative statements > between fedora and other popular fast release schedule distros. I actually wrote that content in a different context, as a working analysis to show where we differ from other well-known desktops. Actually, partly to illustrate my personal view that modern desktop OSes superficially offer many of the same capabilities, so we probably *can't* promote Fedora solely on the basis of being a better desktop than another well-made distribution, and are probably also on to a loser if we list the ways in which Linux is like Windows without going further. IMO, the areas where Fedora differs significantly and interestingly from other distributions are really admin and developer features like anaconda, Xen and SELinux, and release philosophy. SELinux and our release philosophy are actually probably good examples of why Fedora isn't currently an OS for world domination - implementing SELinux is the right thing to do, but it currently complicates running the system. > I don't want to see anything approaching the > grotesque release review hatchet jobs I see floating around in the > techpress sitting on any project controlled communication channels. Definitely. Some Linux journalism and advocacy is pretty poor, to the point of being counterproductive. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tcallawa at redhat.com Thu Sep 8 19:11:04 2005 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 14:11:04 -0500 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1126206664.7419.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 19:43 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > I actually wrote that content in a different context, as a working > analysis to show where we differ from other well-known desktops. I'd almost rather see us do a: Here are LOTS of reasons why Fedora is cool/useful/fun. We should focus on the specific things that we know we have and that we know other popular distros do not, but there is no need to target them by name. Honestly, all that does is give Gentoo and Ubuntu credibility, because it looks like they're the leaders, and we're playing catchup. ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 19:14:54 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:14:54 -0400 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> On 9/8/05, Stuart Ellis wrote: > I do think that it important to differentiate between solutions, If you want to do it with an eye at being informative and honest..thats one thing. If are doing such comparision to gain promotional leverage for this project..be very wary of bias. I honestly don't think you can make an informed differentiation document without direct input from the counterparts in the projects being part of that discussion without reeking of bias. I've consumed so much Fedora flavored Kool-aid there is no way anyone could expect me to give a fair and balanced assessment of the differences without actively getting input from someone comparable swimming in Ubuntu sauce. > although I'd shy away from using terms like "competition". Most of the > Fedora software list is now the same as a number of other distributions, > so that makes explaining what is unique about Fedora is harder. Go to the hardware store... go to the hammer section...pick 4 comparably priced hammers....figure out how to "market" the uniqueness of each one.... patent that business practise...???...profit. > SELinux and our release philosophy are actually probably good examples > of why Fedora isn't currently an OS for world domination - implementing > SELinux is the right thing to do, but it currently complicates running > the system. There it is... there's the crux of the matter. Fedora: The right thing to do. Not the easy thing... not the quick thing...the right thing. The right thing for future of the existing community, as well as the future of open source computing in a broader context. Short term release schedules with long term focus. Doesn't that sum what everyone is trying to express in terms of a development philosophy and focus actually is? Not what we'd like it to be. All the efforts to shoehorn a definition of the Fedora experience that tries to detail what Fedora is "now" feels so very badly out of place when the development is clearly focused on getting things right long term. The payoff simply isnt istant gratification. Its not about the best desktop or whatever "now" its about progress toward the ideal. jef"Fedora: Contradictions made manifest"spaleta From stuart at elsn.org Thu Sep 8 20:29:21 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:29:21 +0100 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <1126206664.7419.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126206664.7419.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1126211361.2934.118.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 14:11 -0500, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 19:43 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > I actually wrote that content in a different context, as a working > > analysis to show where we differ from other well-known desktops. > > I'd almost rather see us do a: > > Here are LOTS of reasons why Fedora is cool/useful/fun. Agreed. Again, I wrote it up to support an argument that desktops superficially look a lot alike, e.g. a common Windows setup and a standard Fedora desktop have equivalent software for a lot of things. I don't personally advocate putting on it a public Website - my point was really to *challenge* the usual practice of laundry lists of applications with no context. The difference between Linux/Windows is perhaps more in the overall experience... watching inexperienced computer users on Windows - the usability of many desktop applications actually sucks unless you are a power user and understand the conventions, and the lack of malware takes a lot of the hassle out. IMO, these things are hugely important, but of course are not actually unique to Fedora. > We should focus on the specific things that we know we have and that we > know other popular distros do not Yes, although the unique technologies are harder to summarize and demonstrate, because they aren't desktop-orientated in the usual sense. I think that one common theme is that Fedora/RHEL are uniquely good at deployment - you can get a well-behaved desktop or server very quickly, with remote admin features built-in, and can also deploy systems in large numbers. Why would someone in the market for an operating system to install care about deployment or support features, though, or even usability ? One answer might be that they are installing systems for others to use. Of course the release cycle goes against that... -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Thu Sep 8 21:06:24 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 22:06:24 +0100 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126213584.2934.151.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 15:14 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/8/05, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > I do think that it important to differentiate between solutions, > > If you want to do it with an eye at being informative and > honest..thats one thing. If are doing such comparision to gain > promotional leverage for this project..be very wary of bias. Bear in mind that this is not a draft as much as a summary of various ideas and thoughts thrown around for people to use as a start point for discussion. There isn't a formal marketing strategy yet, so writing about Fedora requires figuring out a bunch of things. One of those is, "how is Fedora different from any other Linux distribution ?". Somebody reading the Website is going to mentally ask that question, and look for an answer. > There it is... there's the crux of the matter. > Fedora: The right thing to do. > Not the easy thing... not the quick thing...the right thing. The right > thing for future of the existing community, as well as the future of > open source computing in a broader context. > Short term release schedules with long term focus. That sums up how I feel, personally. A lot of people, though, are very interested in the idea of a well-made, no-fee desktop. Should Fedora be trying to address that need directly ? (That's not a rhetorical question, I genuinely don't know). > All the efforts to shoehorn a definition of the Fedora experience > that tries to detail what Fedora is "now" feels so very badly out of > place when the development is clearly focused on getting things right > long term. The payoff simply isnt istant gratification. Its not about > the best desktop or whatever "now" its about progress toward the > ideal. Hmm. So perhaps the solution is to focus less on the features themselves, more on what the purpose is, and how users can help with the development. Concrete examples are probably important, though. I know that it was only after I began using Linux and follow on-line discussions that I started to even think these kinds of big thoughts. Stuff like "Open Source means that you can download whatever software you need, without restrictions" sounds a bit dumb and simplistic, but perhaps that's the level to start at. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 8 21:11:12 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Jef is so right here, it makes me weep. Fedora is the right thing to do. Why Fedora? Because it's got the best out-of-box security model available in a free distro. Execshield. Buffer validation. SELinux. It's an OS that doesn't become a spambot in 15 minutes. Why Fedora? Because it's all open, and it'll stay that way. Open protocols for music and video. Ogg is open *and* it's better, so we're gonna use it. We put our money where our mouth is. Why Fedora? Because it works. It's a great desktop and it's a great server. It's got everything that any Linux user needs. Why Fedora? Because it's built using the right model. It's cutting-edge without sacrificing usefulness. Not only is it a great desktop and a great server, it's also a great R&D platform for the Linux community as a whole. And the cutting-edge today becomes the supported RHEL stability of tomorrow. Why Fedora? Because it's secure, because it's open, because it works, and because it's innovative. Why Fedora? Because it's the *right thing to do*. Hell yeah. --g On Thu, 8 Sep 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > SELinux and our release philosophy are actually probably good examples > > of why Fedora isn't currently an OS for world domination - implementing > > SELinux is the right thing to do, but it currently complicates running > > the system. > > There it is... there's the crux of the matter. > Fedora: The right thing to do. > Not the easy thing... not the quick thing...the right thing. The right > thing for future of the existing community, as well as the future of > open source computing in a broader context. > Short term release schedules with long term focus. > > Doesn't that sum what everyone is trying to express in terms of a > development philosophy and focus actually is? Not what we'd like it to > be. All the efforts to shoehorn a definition of the Fedora experience > that tries to detail what Fedora is "now" feels so very badly out of > place when the development is clearly focused on getting things right > long term. The payoff simply isnt istant gratification. Its not about > the best desktop or whatever "now" its about progress toward the > ideal. > > jef"Fedora: Contradictions made manifest"spaleta _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From tcallawa at redhat.com Thu Sep 8 16:23:40 2005 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 11:23:40 -0500 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126196621.3016.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 17:11 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Jef is so right here, it makes me weep. > > Fedora is the right thing to do. Fedora: Make yo momma proud. ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 8 21:47:50 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:47:50 -0400 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <1126213584.2934.151.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> <1126213584.2934.151.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910509081447539adcc0@mail.gmail.com> On 9/8/05, Stuart Ellis wrote: > One of those is, "how is Fedora different from any other Linux > distribution ?". Somebody reading the Website is going to mentally ask > that question, and look for an answer. my question about similar hammers still apply. If everything in the space is 90%+ similiar can you really answer that question in a general way with technical specifics.. or does it just come down to more qualitative things..more personal decisions. Things like estetics, and the power of the brandname in the marketplace. We keep trying to pick apart the technical specifics that make these projects different and to take those technical specifics and making them compelling to a general audience. Maybe the technical mumbo-jumbo simply isn't compelling to most people. How about we make a general statement what we hope the experience is like and promise to do our best to have each release get closer to what we thing the ideal experience is. > That sums up how I feel, personally. A lot of people, though, are very > interested in the idea of a well-made, no-fee desktop. How do i put this.... Some people need to be violently divorced of the idea that this project is going to magically produce the ideal desktop experience for every computer user on the planet with every release. The development focus of this project is not singularly aimed at the desktop.. so short term gains that seem to benefit some desktop users immediately will be passed over to reach more balanced long term goals. -jef From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 8 22:01:55 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 18:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Attention, Fedora CMCs! Message-ID: And everyone else, actually. If you have time, please check out Colin's work at: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/CommunityMarketingContacts I think this is an excellent document for "what it means to be a CMC." If you think a CMC's duties need more definition, please feel free to edit the wiki. If you think that this captures the CMC's duties well, then we need to start recruiting CMCs and getting them onto the CMC list. Send them Colin's way and he'll take care of them. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From mattfrye at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 00:19:29 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:19:29 -0400 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <604aa7910509081447539adcc0@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> <1126213584.2934.151.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081447539adcc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05090817194f02f6b5@mail.gmail.com> > How do i put this.... > Some people need to be violently divorced of the idea that this > project is going to magically produce the ideal desktop experience for > every computer user on the planet with every release. For once I agree with Jef[f]. Fedora is not for Ubuntu people. I love using Fedora and I hated Ubuntu because decisions were made for me. For this reason, the elements the "right thing to do" argument fit our target audience. But we need to sell those points a little more succinctly: Why...the best out-of-box security model available. Why...because it's all open. While I have mixed feelings about pushing "open" as a benefit to end users, Bob Young is making that case on the other side of the room right now, so I'll just go with the flow on this one. MPF From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 00:43:27 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 20:43:27 -0400 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <7f1eacdd05090817194f02f6b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> <1126213584.2934.151.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081447539adcc0@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05090817194f02f6b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050908174329933967@mail.gmail.com> On 9/8/05, Matt Frye wrote: > While I have mixed feelings about pushing "open" as a benefit to end > users, Understanding the long term benefits of "open" is the hard one and yet the most important one for everybody's long term interests. As long as people are concentrating on the next 3 minutes of their mass-marketted, throw-away, disposable materialistic consumer experience they call a life.. it will continue to be difficult for them to understand the benefits of "open" in any meaningful context. -jef"sahana.sf.net"spaleta From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Sep 9 02:44:49 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 10:44:49 +0800 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <1126206664.7419.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126206664.7419.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1126233889.2288.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Yeah I'm back well sortof I'm on half days to clear up some work that hasn't been done :( Apologies for not showing up at the meeting being ill sucks the big one. On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 14:11 -0500, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 19:43 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > > I actually wrote that content in a different context, as a working > > analysis to show where we differ from other well-known desktops. > > I'd almost rather see us do a: > > Here are LOTS of reasons why Fedora is cool/useful/fun. > > We should focus on the specific things that we know we have and that we > know other popular distros do not, but there is no need to target them > by name. > > Honestly, all that does is give Gentoo and Ubuntu credibility, because > it looks like they're the leaders, and we're playing catchup. Yeah it does look like. Giving examples is great making sure the creation of those cool/useful/fun uses needs to be explained as well. Which brings me to the point of how is istanbul going? I've been chasing it for creating some little desktop movies. I mean wouldn't it be great to create a mini-movie howto of for example how to install a new graphics card and look we created this compressed video using oss software? My $0.02 Regards Marc From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 02:59:55 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 22:59:55 -0400 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <1126233889.2288.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126206664.7419.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126233889.2288.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910509081959e3491fd@mail.gmail.com> On 9/8/05, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Yeah it does look like. Giving examples is great making sure the > creation of those cool/useful/fun uses needs to be explained as well. > Which brings me to the point of how is istanbul going? I've been > chasing it for creating some little desktop movies. istanbul is available in Fedora Extras development right now. It requires a a plugin in gstreamer-plugins for the video source thats not available in the gst-plugins in fc4. Keep the framerate low and your desktopsize small and things work okay. Adding an audio track is a big of a bear.... http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ScreenCasting -jef From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Sep 9 03:31:44 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 11:31:44 +0800 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <604aa791050908174329933967@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> <1126213584.2934.151.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081447539adcc0@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05090817194f02f6b5@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908174329933967@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126236704.2288.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 20:43 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/8/05, Matt Frye wrote: > > While I have mixed feelings about pushing "open" as a benefit to end > > users, > > Understanding the long term benefits of "open" is the hard one and yet > the most important one for everybody's long term interests. As long > as people are concentrating on the next 3 minutes of their > mass-marketted, throw-away, disposable materialistic consumer > experience they call a life.. it will continue to be difficult for > them to understand the benefits of "open" in any meaningful context. Is there a way to explain the meaning of being "open" for example show people how to play cd's using ogg for example. Not sure about legality though. Explaining that xvid is an open source initiative for compressions blah blah. Explaining the security. SELinux is used by such and such making it more secure. So we have like a summary with a link to lower down the document explaining what it means to be secure. Obviously keeping the KISS principle. My reason for joining the Fedora team was purely because I liked the latest things on my desktop. However I can still see problems since I run multiple distro's for certain reasons. I run ubuntu and fedora at the same time so I see the difference. For a new user ubuntu works because the majority of the time it seems to work out of the box. For the mature user Fedora performs better because of the tinkering and the messing around that can be done more so and the latest software that is not needed but wanted. The only big hurdle for the 'semi' experienced user is the RPM compared to deb as well as the difference related to that. One difference that I noticed for example which isn't a bug report but a comment. RHEL sound works on my laptop, ubuntu sound works on my desktop FC4 sound doesn't work? Things like that now I have sound working fine now because I've known what to fix but new users shake their head and go thats just to hard. So we need to specify who are we targeting. If we are targeting new users to linux then we need to make sure that every amount of information that they would need they have access to. If we are targeting more experienced users they would need the information in a different way. Developers well they need development information. I suppose it boils down to who is our target market in specifics. Demographics, pschographics, locations and purely from a marketing point of view we have to answer those questions first then we can create the information to help those users. Regards Marc P.S. You can tell I've been doing my marketing study for my company lately.d From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 9 04:26:39 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 00:26:39 -0400 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <1126236704.2288.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> <1126213584.2934.151.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081447539adcc0@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05090817194f02f6b5@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908174329933967@mail.gmail.com> <1126236704.2288.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa7910509082126e46da21@mail.gmail.com> On 9/8/05, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > One difference that I noticed for example which isn't a bug report but a > comment. RHEL sound works on my laptop, ubuntu sound works on my > desktop FC4 sound doesn't work? bugs are bugs are bugs are bugs... did you happen to file a bug about your specific hardware during the test phase leading up to fc4 release? Or did you run into this after release. You make it sound like there was a delibrate effort to make sound not work for you. Perhaps its just a bug.. a hardware specific bug... that didn't get reported during testing. Go watch the upstream alsa list or the kernel lists..and watch how often hardware specific bugs about specific peices of hardware pop up. Is there room for improvement for how to organize manpower and hardware coverage during test releases leading to a release...yes.. of course. I will point out howver that Ubuntu is not immune to sound problems either appearently..... http://linux.iuplog.com/default.asp?item=94639 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=27583 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=47048 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=21211 Dear god no! a desktop oriented distro that has sound problems! That ubuntu project has clearly failed their target mission! They are doomed! I see some rather familiar fc4 sound problems in those ubuntu hardware problem forums. As I expected really.. since most of the problems even in FC4 appear to be issues with bad default settings for cards in upstream Alsa. And well.. isnt it better for everyone to work these problems out as part of upstream alsa so everybody downstream gets the fix? bugs are bugs are bugs are bugs Please take your personal experience with a grain of salt and try not to extrapolate that out too far into the rest of the community. I don't want to confuse you with an OSnews reviewer. I think you should avoid making arguments that use the phrase "majority of the time" when making any cross-comparative statement... because I'm pretty sure noone in this list including you has any sense of what "majority of the time" experiences really are for any distro across the vast arrary of real-world hardware... noone has hard data on that. bugs are bugs are bugs are bugs. -jef"step right up.. pay 5 dollars to ride my time machine and find tomorrow's bugs so you can fix them today..thus ensuring the implosion of the universe"spaleta From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Sep 9 04:49:10 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 12:49:10 +0800 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <604aa7910509082126e46da21@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> <1126213584.2934.151.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081447539adcc0@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05090817194f02f6b5@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908174329933967@mail.gmail.com> <1126236704.2288.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509082126e46da21@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126241350.2288.27.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-09-09 at 00:26 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/8/05, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > One difference that I noticed for example which isn't a bug report but a > > comment. RHEL sound works on my laptop, ubuntu sound works on my > > desktop FC4 sound doesn't work? > > bugs are bugs are bugs are bugs... did you happen to file a bug about > your specific hardware during the test phase leading up to fc4 > release? Or did you run into this after release. You make it sound > like there was a delibrate effort to make sound not work for you. > Perhaps its just a bug.. a hardware specific bug... that didn't get > reported during testing. Go watch the upstream alsa list or the kernel > lists..and watch how often hardware specific bugs about specific > peices of hardware pop up. Is there room for improvement for how to > organize manpower and hardware coverage during test releases leading > to a release...yes.. of course. > No only just happened this week. Brand new FC4 install. > I will point out howver that Ubuntu is not immune to sound problems > either appearently..... > http://linux.iuplog.com/default.asp?item=94639 > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=27583 > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=47048 > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=21211 > > Dear god no! a desktop oriented distro that has sound problems! That > ubuntu project has clearly failed their target mission! They are > doomed! > > That wasn't what I was getting at what I was getting at is that they make it simple thats what my message was. I understand bugs happen and occur constantly its part of life. What I'm saying is the install itself and what is bundled in is targeted towards the new and inexperienced user thats all. I'm not saying bugs don't exist. > > I see some rather familiar fc4 sound problems in those ubuntu hardware > problem forums. > As I expected really.. since most of the problems even in FC4 appear > to be issues with bad default settings for cards in upstream Alsa. And > well.. isnt it better for everyone to work these problems out as part > of upstream alsa so everybody downstream gets the fix? > > bugs are bugs are bugs are bugs I know that and it wasn't a criticism it was a comparison in my experience and its just that my experience. I have a lot of friends how I have asked for them to try linux and always recommend Fedora to them and they seem to have the same issues as I did. I'm not being critical of Fedora in the sense that I don't like it I use it. I'm just relaying what my friends have situations with. > > Please take your personal experience with a grain of salt and try not > to extrapolate that out too far into the rest of the community. I > don't want to confuse you with an OSnews reviewer. I think you should > avoid making arguments that use the phrase "majority of the time" when > making any cross-comparative statement... because I'm pretty sure > noone in this list including you has any sense of what "majority of > the time" experiences really are for any distro across the vast arrary > of real-world hardware... noone has hard data on that. > > bugs are bugs are bugs are bugs. Again I agree with you bugs are bugs. If I'm that far off the mark which I prefer to think I'm not that bad in judging experiences. Our local LUG in WA used to recommend Fedora then they have moved to Mandrake then now they have switched to Ubuntu. I disagree personally but that means nothing. I have numerous other examples one simple one is look at distro watch. I'm not going to go any further because I just re-read it and that was one point of the overall message that was in no relation to what I was trying to get across. So forget it I can't be bothered going over this. I was making a point relating to marketing and somehow its been turned towards my personal installation and how its a bug. From luya at jpopmail.com Fri Sep 9 06:43:05 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 22:43:05 -0800 Subject: Discussions on expanding the Fedora user base Message-ID: <20050909064305.1B0D1CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> > I don't want to confuse you with an OSnews reviewer. Hehe, I was one of the rarem OSnews reviewere of Fedora Core 4 Test 2. =) -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.jp.popstarmail.org From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Sep 10 12:05:14 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 17:35:14 +0530 Subject: Standard Operating Procedure for Publicising Fedora Events Message-ID: <4322CBFA.6010100@redhat.com> Hi Here is a list of links to submit news blurbs or articles as promised by me earlier. We could probably expand this a bit more and provide specific guidelines Linux Weekly News (LWN) http://lwn.net/op/FAQ.lwn#contact News and stories: lwn at lwn.net PR: pr at lwn.net letters: letters at lwn.net http://distrowatch.com/ - distro at distrowatch.com http://osnews.com/submit.php(news, original reviews) http://linuxtoday.com/contribute.php3 (accepts PR and news) http://lxer.com/module/newswire/stories/ (accepts PR and news) http://www.newsforge.com/submit.pl (accepts PR, original stories and reviews) http://slashdot.org/ - Register and submit (news and original book reviews) What needs to be covered? Important new developments, projects and releases - Follow development, test, Java development, live cd and other mailing lists and publicise news worthy stuff. If in doubt, submit. Events - This list Press Releases - This list Distribution reviews - Print, online - Potentially all news sites. How do we cover print magazines? Books reviews - How about these?. Andy? regards Rahul From byte at aeon.com.my Sat Sep 10 13:37:37 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:37:37 +1000 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... Message-ID: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> I'd like to discuss: FedoraMyths - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraMyths How can we use this further, and get it somewhat Red Hat blessed if we need to FedoraUsers - http://fedorausers.org/ This is a site that hasn't actually been born yet, but I'd like the relevant parties to show up to discuss how we can have a site that makes sense to one of our largest target markets: USERS Does anyone have contact information for who's behind fedorausers.org ? Whois doesn't tell me too much Triaging guidelines - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/TriagingGuidelines How can we market to triagers? How can we make it _absolutely easy_ for triagers to get on the bandwagon? If I didn't know Bugzilla, how'd I use it kind of improvements, all user targetted Fedora LiveCD - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Kadischi We have a LiveCD in the making. LiveCDs as we all know are incredibly useful as a marketing tool (and a rescue tool, a demo tool, etc.). Let's find some use cases, maybe more developers to join, and lets give this a spin if there's techincal prowess among us. I think a lot of inspiration with regards to marketing livecd's can be honed from http://live.gnome.org/GnomeLiveCd Get people on the CMC lists Greg has created this, I have access to it, so its time to get off my butt and get cracking All this in addition to our current schedule. Just thought I'd put this up here, so we all have some time to prepare. Yes, hefty plate for that one hour, I don't expect it all to be done then, but hey, I'm giving it a shot =) -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Sep 11 05:03:12 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 00:03:12 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sat, 2005-09-10 at 23:37 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > I'd like to discuss: > FedoraMyths - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraMyths You need to _expand_, _technically_ on these points. Especially the filesystem comments. Don't be general, be specific. E.g., ReiserFS does not support SELinux, ACLs and other extents well, let alone NFS and other core functionality/compatibility issues are a "show-stopper" for shipping in Fedora releases. JFS suffers from much of the same compatibility. As far as XFS, be complementary given the fact that it _does_ have a lot of support -- equaling Ext3 in many areas -- but at this time, most people only consider the official SGI kernel releases to be of "production quality" and not the stock kernel implementation. Those are very sound facts. If someone would like me to write the section, I can do so very _point-by-point_ in the focus of what Fedora (like Red Hat before) must have in a filesystem. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From caillon at redhat.com Sun Sep 11 05:27:50 2005 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 01:27:50 -0400 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <4323C056.6030506@redhat.com> On 09/10/2005 09:37 AM, Colin Charles wrote: >I'd like to discuss: > >FedoraMyths - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraMyths >How can we use this further, and get it somewhat Red Hat blessed if we >need to > Drive-by feedback: I see a whole bunch of negative items in bold, and then the word FACT in bold right underneath it. Someone quickly skimming will get the wrong idea. Highlight the positive as a contra to the negative. Don't highlight the negative assuming people will read the rebuttal. From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Sun Sep 11 05:45:57 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 22:45:57 -0700 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1126417557.2409.13.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 00:03 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Sat, 2005-09-10 at 23:37 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > I'd like to discuss: > > FedoraMyths - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraMyths > > You need to _expand_, _technically_ on these points. Especially the > filesystem comments. Don't be general, be specific. > > E.g., ReiserFS does not support SELinux, ACLs ... Might also be worth mentioning namesys/Hans Reiser are not working on adding support (Although some people at SuSE are.) Last post I saw from the SuSE people was: http://lkml.org/lkml/2004/12/7/142 which is in our kernel. I understand there's been more issues (which may have been fixed in 2.6.13) reported since. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Sep 11 06:03:51 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 01:03:51 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >On Sat, 2005-09-10 at 23:37 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > >>I'd like to discuss: >>FedoraMyths - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraMyths >> >> > >You need to _expand_, _technically_ on these points. Especially the >filesystem comments. Don't be general, be specific. > >E.g., ReiserFS does not support SELinux, ACLs and other extents well, >let alone NFS and other core functionality/compatibility issues are a >"show-stopper" for shipping in Fedora releases. JFS suffers from much >of the same compatibility. > >As far as XFS, be complementary given the fact that it _does_ have a lot >of support -- equaling Ext3 in many areas -- but at this time, most >people only consider the official SGI kernel releases to be of >"production quality" and not the stock kernel implementation. > >Those are very sound facts. If someone would like me to write the >section, I can do so very _point-by-point_ in the focus of what Fedora >(like Red Hat before) must have in a filesystem. > > > > I don't know if that is really within the scope of this document. We could very easily write entire pages on some of the points (and indeed we have) and trying to cram it all on this one page would result in a massive document that goes far beyond what we really want to present here. On some of the points that require more elaboration, we can redirect the users to more information, or write sub-pages of the FedoraMyths page to hold the more in-depth information. Please keep in mind that many people will only be interested in one or two of the points, and many novice users will be looking at this document. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Sep 11 06:07:10 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 01:07:10 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <4323C056.6030506@redhat.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <4323C056.6030506@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4323C98E.4020108@n-man.com> Christopher Aillon wrote: > On 09/10/2005 09:37 AM, Colin Charles wrote: > >> I'd like to discuss: >> >> FedoraMyths - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraMyths >> How can we use this further, and get it somewhat Red Hat blessed if we >> need to >> > Drive-by feedback: > I see a whole bunch of negative items in bold, and then the word FACT > in bold right underneath it. Someone quickly skimming will get the > wrong idea. Highlight the positive as a contra to the negative. > Don't highlight the negative assuming people will read the rebuttal. > The current appearance of the document is largely dictated by the perspective and the form of the wiki. The 'myths' are the focus of the document. Dispelling them with the facts is its purpose. It is not meant to be read by drive-by reviewers. People who view the page are looking for reasons. That said, I will try to go back and improve the contrast to better highlight the facts. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Sep 11 09:54:45 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 04:54:45 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 01:03 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > I don't know if that is really within the scope of this document. We > could very easily write entire pages on some of the points (and indeed > we have) and trying to cram it all on this one page would result in a > massive document that goes far beyond what we really want to present > here. On some of the points that require more elaboration, we can > redirect the users to more information, or write sub-pages of the > FedoraMyths page to hold the more in-depth information. Please keep in > mind that many people will only be interested in one or two of the > points, and many novice users will be looking at this document. Okay, I can thin my comments it out into 3-4 statements total. But I think the current form is technically misleading. Instead on focusing on saying what is and isn't experimental, why not say that Red Hat requires certain functions to work on a filesystem, JFS and ReiserFS do not, and while XFS does, it's support is still experimental and not as well tested. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Sep 11 10:01:31 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 05:01:31 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 04:54 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Okay, I can thin my comments it out into 3-4 statements total. > But I think the current form is technically misleading. Instead on > focusing on saying what is and isn't experimental, why not say that Red > Hat requires certain functions to work on a filesystem, JFS and ReiserFS > do not, and while XFS does, it's support is still experimental and not > as well tested. Dang, I'm half-asleep. Do-over ... Say something like ... Fedora Core, more than most other Linux distributions, requires the filesystem have extensive kernel/application support. Ext2/Ext3 have a long history on all Linux distributions, so kernel and application support is commonly implemented. This includes kernel NFS services, quotas and Extended Attributes (EAs) for things such as Access Control Lists (ACLs) and Mandatory Access Controls (MACs) like SELinux. ReiserFS is not working on supporting many of these features, which is a show-stopper, and has a long history if compatibility issues with traditional services Fedora Core has been used for. JFS is still missing many of these components, and suffers from the same compatibility history as ReiserFS. While XFS does have extensive support, and SGI has produced releases of XFS for prior Red Hat kernels, Fedora Core has not tested XFS extensive, and there are many known issues with XFS in the Linux kernel (outside of SGI's control). -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Sep 11 10:04:47 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 05:04:47 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 05:01 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > Dang, I'm half-asleep. Do-over ... > Say something like ... > > Fedora Core, more than most other Linux distributions, requires the > filesystem have extensive kernel/application support. Ext2/Ext3 have a > long history on all Linux distributions, so kernel and application > support is commonly implemented. This includes kernel NFS services, > quotas and Extended Attributes (EAs) for things such as Access Control > Lists (ACLs) and Mandatory Access Controls (MACs) like SELinux. > > ReiserFS is not working on supporting many of these features, which is a > show-stopper, and has a long history if compatibility issues with > traditional services Fedora Core has been used for. JFS is still > missing many of these components, and suffers from the same > compatibility history as ReiserFS. While XFS does have extensive > support, and SGI has produced releases of XFS for prior Red Hat kernels, > Fedora Core has not tested XFS extensive, and there are many known > issues with XFS in the Linux kernel (outside of SGI's control). Actually, I just re-read that and it's too subjective and, worse yet, makes statements on behalf of other entities (which we obviously can't do). I'll come up with a better set of statements after I get some sleep, as well as after I find a few, solid mailing list links. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From stuart at elsn.org Sun Sep 11 15:12:14 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 16:12:14 +0100 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 05:04 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 05:01 -0500, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > > Dang, I'm half-asleep. Do-over ... > > Say something like ... > > > > Fedora Core, more than most other Linux distributions, requires the > > filesystem have extensive kernel/application support. Ext2/Ext3 have a > > long history on all Linux distributions, so kernel and application > > support is commonly implemented. This includes kernel NFS services, > > quotas and Extended Attributes (EAs) for things such as Access Control > > Lists (ACLs) and Mandatory Access Controls (MACs) like SELinux. > > > > ReiserFS is not working on supporting many of these features, which is a > > show-stopper, and has a long history if compatibility issues with > > traditional services Fedora Core has been used for. JFS is still > > missing many of these components, and suffers from the same > > compatibility history as ReiserFS. While XFS does have extensive > > support, and SGI has produced releases of XFS for prior Red Hat kernels, > > Fedora Core has not tested XFS extensive, and there are many known > > issues with XFS in the Linux kernel (outside of SGI's control). > > Actually, I just re-read that and it's too subjective and, worse yet, > makes statements on behalf of other entities (which we obviously can't > do). As has already been said, it may not need much detail. The important points are probably that ReiserFS doesn't yet support key features x, y and z, and XFS isn't suited or reliable for standard setups. I tagged that myth on after an IRC discussion about unreasonable user requests - people semi-regularly claim that Fedora should support/default to ReiserFS (as SUSE does, I think) because it's supposedly faster or cleverer or whatever, and that XFS is l33t, so it should be a standard installation option. -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From caillon at redhat.com Sun Sep 11 15:31:01 2005 From: caillon at redhat.com (Christopher Aillon) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 11:31:01 -0400 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <4323C98E.4020108@n-man.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <4323C056.6030506@redhat.com> <4323C98E.4020108@n-man.com> Message-ID: <43244DB5.1000404@redhat.com> On 09/11/2005 02:07 AM, Patrick Barnes wrote: >The current appearance of the document is largely dictated by the >perspective and the form of the wiki. The 'myths' are the focus of the >document. Dispelling them with the facts is its purpose. It is not >meant to be read by drive-by reviewers. People who view the page are >looking for reasons. That said, I will try to go back and improve the >contrast to better highlight the facts. > The point is that your document is capable of being read drive-by, thanks to the nature of the internet (and e.g. Google). The people who are susceptible to myth and most need to read that document are also the most likely to be confused with the wrong message if they happen to come across it the same way I did. Disregarding that, there is still something even AFTER i read the document through that makes the human (at least this one) focus on the bullet points. Those being negative really hurts. Let's focus on the positive. Perhaps something like: * Q: Is Fedora Core unstable and unreliable? * A: No. In fact, many businesses rely on Fedora Core for day-to-day operation and, in some cases, critical infrastructure. The misconception that Fedora is unstable is driven by two things: Basically, give the reader the bottom line information up front, and then if they want to read the full response, they can. This helps ensure the information we provide will be construed in a manner desirable to us. From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Sep 11 18:01:31 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 13:01:31 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 16:12 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > As has already been said, it may not need much detail. The important > points are probably that ReiserFS doesn't yet support key features x, y > and z, Correct, that _needs_ to be in there. The problem with so many ReiserFS advocates is that they've _never_ used it for a production NFS server, or never used EAs. And there are recovery issues with the off-line tools being "out-of-sync" with changes in the filesystem (something that doesn't happen with Ext3 or XFS which have remained unchanged structurally for 10+ years). > and XFS isn't suited or reliable for standard setups. XFS is _very_reliable_, but _only_ in the official SGI releases. I've found that XFS in the stock kernel is _not_, and most 3rd party rebuilds are incomplete and buggy. I wish Red Hat would support XFS. It has all the interface/ compatibility, features of Ext3, plus a number more that enterprises need. But until Red Hat takes the time to build and test a "complete" XFS -- I can't trust the stock kernel builds or 3rd parties. > I tagged that myth on after an IRC discussion about unreasonable user > requests - people semi-regularly claim that Fedora should > support/default to ReiserFS (as SUSE does, I think) because it's > supposedly faster or cleverer or whatever, ReiserFS is innovative. And it utterly _breaks_ standard kernel interfaces and compatibility as a result. Even SuSE developers have told me _not_ to use it for my needs, because their hacks for many things (from NFS to EAs) are suspect. > and that XFS is l33t, so it should be a standard installation option. Actually, Red Hat needs to realize that Ext3 has scalability issues (I don't like it above 100GB and I do _not_ trust it above 1TB), and _lacks_ a lot of user-space features of XFS like xfsdump, xfs_fsr, etc..., let alone EAs and other meta-data is stored directly in the inode (which xfsdump then retains). I still have quite a number of Red Hat Linux 7.3 systems in heavy, heavy production with SGI's official XFS 1.2.x release, and one major Red Hat Linux 9 system with SGI's official XFS 1.3.1 release. But that's the key issue, they are the _only_ official SGI releases for any distro. I've tried to integrate SGI's kernel builds from CVS into Red Hat distros to little avail. And as I mentioned, the stock kernel releases are incomplete -- especially the 2.4 backport that is now in the stock 2.4 kernel. I would _never_ run it, and the stock 2.6 kernel continues to be suspect. Which means until Red Hat pro-actively develops and tests XFS in newer kernel 2.6 Fedora Core releases, I can't trust XFS either. WHICH MEANS (AND I HOPE RED HAT IS LISTENING ;-), when I need a large, scalable, high-performance NFS/LAN file server for my Fortune 100 clients -- I deploy Solaris/Opteron now. Ext3 is _not_ cut it, and it _never_ will. I have to agree 100% with Schwartz's comments -- Red Hat is _ignoring_ a significant segment of the enterprise LAN server market. I still long for the day of the Ext3 + XFS combination Red Hat distribution. Ext3 is better for system and smaller data volumes, XFS is better for larger (especially large file) volumes. But that died once SGI stopped releasing official releases -- the last being 1.3.1 for Red Hat Linux 9. It's not about "l33t" -- there are serious enterprise features missing in Ext3. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Sep 11 20:53:26 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 15:53:26 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <43249946.6080608@n-man.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 16:12 +0100, Stuart Ellis wrote: > > >>As has already been said, it may not need much detail. The important >>points are probably that ReiserFS doesn't yet support key features x, y >>and z, >> >> > >Correct, that _needs_ to be in there. The problem with so many ReiserFS >advocates is that they've _never_ used it for a production NFS server, >or never used EAs. And there are recovery issues with the off-line >tools being "out-of-sync" with changes in the filesystem (something that >doesn't happen with Ext3 or XFS which have remained unchanged >structurally for 10+ years). > > > >>and XFS isn't suited or reliable for standard setups. >> >> > >XFS is _very_reliable_, but _only_ in the official SGI releases. I've >found that XFS in the stock kernel is _not_, and most 3rd party rebuilds >are incomplete and buggy. > >I wish Red Hat would support XFS. It has all the interface/ >compatibility, features of Ext3, plus a number more that enterprises >need. But until Red Hat takes the time to build and test a "complete" >XFS -- I can't trust the stock kernel builds or 3rd parties. > > > >>I tagged that myth on after an IRC discussion about unreasonable user >>requests - people semi-regularly claim that Fedora should >>support/default to ReiserFS (as SUSE does, I think) because it's >>supposedly faster or cleverer or whatever, >> >> > >ReiserFS is innovative. And it utterly _breaks_ standard kernel >interfaces and compatibility as a result. Even SuSE developers have >told me _not_ to use it for my needs, because their hacks for many >things (from NFS to EAs) are suspect. > > > >>and that XFS is l33t, so it should be a standard installation option. >> >> > >Actually, Red Hat needs to realize that Ext3 has scalability issues (I >don't like it above 100GB and I do _not_ trust it above 1TB), and >_lacks_ a lot of user-space features of XFS like xfsdump, xfs_fsr, >etc..., let alone EAs and other meta-data is stored directly in the >inode (which xfsdump then retains). > >I still have quite a number of Red Hat Linux 7.3 systems in heavy, heavy >production with SGI's official XFS 1.2.x release, and one major Red Hat >Linux 9 system with SGI's official XFS 1.3.1 release. But that's the >key issue, they are the _only_ official SGI releases for any distro. > >I've tried to integrate SGI's kernel builds from CVS into Red Hat >distros to little avail. And as I mentioned, the stock kernel releases >are incomplete -- especially the 2.4 backport that is now in the stock >2.4 kernel. I would _never_ run it, and the stock 2.6 kernel continues >to be suspect. > >Which means until Red Hat pro-actively develops and tests XFS in newer >kernel 2.6 Fedora Core releases, I can't trust XFS either. > >WHICH MEANS (AND I HOPE RED HAT IS LISTENING ;-), when I need a large, >scalable, high-performance NFS/LAN file server for my Fortune 100 >clients -- I deploy Solaris/Opteron now. Ext3 is _not_ cut it, and it >_never_ will. I have to agree 100% with Schwartz's comments -- Red Hat >is _ignoring_ a significant segment of the enterprise LAN server market. > >I still long for the day of the Ext3 + XFS combination Red Hat >distribution. Ext3 is better for system and smaller data volumes, XFS >is better for larger (especially large file) volumes. But that died >once SGI stopped releasing official releases -- the last being 1.3.1 for >Red Hat Linux 9. > >It's not about "l33t" -- there are serious enterprise features missing >in Ext3. > > > > Suggestion: Why don't you go ahead and write a wiki page about the assorted filesystems, their strengths and weaknesses, and why some aren't currently in Fedora. You could create the page at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ/FileSystems and let me know when it is ready for review. Once we have a good version in place, we can write in just a small statement on the FedoraMyths page and direct the curious to the new page. If you would like to follow the progress of filesystem support and keep that page a living document, that would be great. We'll also create a link to the new page directly off of the FAQ. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Sun Sep 11 22:43:51 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 04:13:51 +0530 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> >> >>WHICH MEANS (AND I HOPE RED HAT IS LISTENING ;-), when I need a large, >>scalable, high-performance NFS/LAN file server for my Fortune 100 >>clients -- I deploy Solaris/Opteron now. >> > Ext3 is _not_ cut it, and it >_never_ will. I have to agree 100% with Schwartz's comments -- Red Hat >is _ignoring_ a significant segment of the enterprise LAN server market. >\\\\\ > > Never is a long time. Ext3 is under active development and will continue to get more enhancements . If you want to send in customer feedback using the appropriate support channels would be a better idea. If you do believe that the page can highlight things in a better way that is invasive, make a alternative wiki page as a draft and point that to this list for dicussions regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Sep 11 23:38:50 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 18:38:50 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <43249946.6080608@n-man.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <43249946.6080608@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1126481930.4573.313.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 15:53 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Suggestion: Why don't you go ahead and write a wiki page about the > assorted filesystems, their strengths and weaknesses, and why some > aren't currently in Fedora. You could create the page at > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ/FileSystems and let me know when it is > ready for review. Once we have a good version in place, we can write in > just a small statement on the FedoraMyths page and direct the curious to > the new page. If you would like to follow the progress of filesystem > support and keep that page a living document, that would be great. > We'll also create a link to the new page directly off of the FAQ. Actually, I've written a _lot_ on XFS since I produced some RPMs back in early 2001 (just months prior to the official SGI XFS 1.0 release). I have a larger, technical discussion on Ext3 and XFS is in my blog here which covers a _lot_ of recent status: http://thebs413.blogspot.com/2005/08/filesystem-fundamentals-and-practices.html I could probably dig up my posts from 2000, 2001, 2002 on-ward on my usage of different filesystems. One legacy one from June 2001 is here: http://www.geocities.com/thebs413/ITEC_JFS_2001Jun13.pdf In a nutshell, I adopted Ext3 in 2000 after SuSE told me that ReiserFS would not be a feasible filesystem for kernel NFS. I have a few colleagues with SuSE that are "frank" on the continuing issues with ReiserFS for such applications. As far as JFS, the problem was that it was ported from OS/2, and _not_ the AIX implementation. So the Linux JFS port was basically *0* ready for an UNIX-like platform, and the resulting "re-write" occurred. It had more to do with IBM honoring their Non-Compete clause with SCO in their Monterey agreement. This was prior to IBM breaking and violating the agreement (which SCO sued over years later), so they were honoring it at the time the Linux JFS fork came about. Since then, I've been deploying XFS. Once the SGI XFS 1.2 release hit, I put it into serious production. But the lack of good integration in the kernel, even 2.6 (although much better than 2.4) has left me _not_ trusting anything except official SGI XFS kernels. And I've had trouble integrating anything but the old 1.2.x for RHL7.3 and 1.3.1 for RHL9 releases. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Sun Sep 11 23:59:01 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 18:59:01 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 04:13 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Never is a long time. Ext3 is under active development and will continue > to get more enhancements . Let me be the _first_ to thank Red Hat and Tweedie for the Ext3 filesystem. I trust it implicitly. It started saving my bacon in early 2000, and I have trusted it ever since. It was a much needed, evolutionary filesystem from _trusted_ Ext2 which has not changed since the mid-'90s. There's nothing like knowing you can always do a full Ext2 fsck -- that's something I trust. *BUT* I have 2 standing rules on my Ext3 deployments: 1. No Ext3 filesystem is ever larger than 1TB. I try to keep them 100GB or smaller. I still use Ext3 for system volumes, and I would _never_ use another filesystem for /, /tmp, /var and several other filesystems. 2. Avoid using Extended Attributes (EAs) on Ext3 for data filesystems, except for SELinux. This is more of a backup consideration than anything else. There is no "reliable" way to backup/restore EAs from Ext3. Sorry, although I personally like Jorg's work, star is not what I consider "enterprise quality." Again, Ext3 will _continue_ to be a _good_ filesystem for Red Hat and its integrators like myself. But I can_not_ entrust it as a solution for multi-TB filesystems. Unfortunately, there's not much I can in Linux, and that's the problem -- one Red Hat should help solve. XFS is a no-brainer. XFS' structure was designed for 64-bit, with extents, with delayed writes, with EAs and other meta-data in the inodes, with a _full_suite_ of user-space tools from xfsdump to xfs_fsr (defragmentor) to the off- line xfs_repair tool. KEY POINT: This structure has _not_ changed since 1995. Everything has been built around that structure since 1995. There are no new "hacks" to "extend" the filesystem's design. It was not left "incomplete." And XFS was a _direct_port_ from Irix to Linux, bringing a _lot_ of capability to the kernel itself. That included POSIX EA support from day 1, _official_ quota support even _before_ Ext3, excellent kernel NFS support in the SGI XFS releases for kernel 2.4 (although this is no longer the case) and many other details. That is what I trusted from 2001-2004 -- especially the XFS 1.2 release for Red Hat Linux 7.3 and 1.3.1 release for Red Hat Linux 9. Unfortunately, there is _no_ other XFS release I can trust. It's not the filesystem itself, it's the _lack_ of consideration on several levels. XFS and SGI could really, really, _really_ use Red Hat's assistance on developing XFS as a "standard" filesystem for 2.6 kernel distributions. It's not that XFS is "experimental," it's just the changes that have occurred in the kernel since the filesystem first came over, and was extremely mission critical. Including Red Hat changes like 4KiB stacks -- which I _do_ believe is a good idea. In fact, I have been extremely complementary and supportive of Red Hat's decision making versus SuSE, Debian and other distributions. 9 times out of 10, Red Hat makes the best choice time and time again. Ext3 was one of them. But Ext3 cannot continue to be extended and still leverage its trusted structure that was _not_ designed for the scale and features that enterprises now need. The problem is that everytime I bring this up, people treat me like I'm some ReiserFS enthusiast who has never run large-scale NFS/SMB servers, or a JFS advocate who doesn't know it's history on Linux. I _do_ use Ext3 and I will _continue_ to deploy Ext3 for many filesystems. But Ext3 is not "cutting it" for some large data filesystems, and it will never offer what XFS has -- and more importantly -- has had since the mid-'90s. ReiserFS and JFS are basically "no way" on Red Hat, with Red Hat's services focus, and I explain this to people regularly. Even SuSE developers admit what ReiserFS cannot support, and most understand why Red Hat does not support it. But XFS quite different in its compatibility, and it is only because of kernel changes and lack of distro support why issues are now occurring. > If you want to send in customer feedback using the appropriate support > channels would be a better idea. If you do believe that the page can > highlight things in a better way that is invasive, make a alternative > wiki page as a draft and point that to this list for dicussions I will. Until then, I invite people to read my blog. I'm an Ext3 system integrator. The problem is that the lack of XFS as a complement to Ext3 is causing me to deploy Solaris/Opteron instead of Linux/Opteron for LAN servers now. Again, I'm not so pundit with little experience deploying mission critical LAN file servers claiming superior performance out of ReiserFS, or JFS advocate who is oblivious to the origins of Linux's JFS which has caused it's support issues. I really don't prefer Sun. But because of Red Hat's stance, I've gone from moving from Solaris to Linux only to be moving back towards Solaris for some services. Linux is great for web servers, database servers (using "raw" volumes for Oracle, or smaller MySQL/PostgresSQL filesystems), grid computing and other areas. But for large file servers, the lack of a turnkey Linux distro with XFS (since the older SGI releases), has pushed me back to UNIX, and Solaris is where it's at for LAN fileservers -- especially on Opteron. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From nman64 at n-man.com Mon Sep 12 00:26:19 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:26:19 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4324CB2B.6000506@n-man.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 04:13 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Never is a long time. Ext3 is under active development and will continue >>to get more enhancements . >> >> > >Let me be the _first_ to thank Red Hat and Tweedie for the Ext3 >filesystem. I trust it implicitly. It started saving my bacon in early >2000, and I have trusted it ever since. It was a much needed, >evolutionary filesystem from _trusted_ Ext2 which has not changed since >the mid-'90s. There's nothing like knowing you can always do a full >Ext2 fsck -- that's something I trust. > >*BUT* I have 2 standing rules on my Ext3 deployments: > >1. No Ext3 filesystem is ever larger than 1TB. I try to keep them >100GB or smaller. I still use Ext3 for system volumes, and I would >_never_ use another filesystem for /, /tmp, /var and several other >filesystems. > >2. Avoid using Extended Attributes (EAs) on Ext3 for data filesystems, >except for SELinux. This is more of a backup consideration than >anything else. There is no "reliable" way to backup/restore EAs from >Ext3. Sorry, although I personally like Jorg's work, star is not what I >consider "enterprise quality." > >Again, Ext3 will _continue_ to be a _good_ filesystem for Red Hat and >its integrators like myself. But I can_not_ entrust it as a solution >for multi-TB filesystems. Unfortunately, there's not much I can in >Linux, and that's the problem -- one Red Hat should help solve. > >XFS is a no-brainer. > >XFS' structure was designed for 64-bit, with extents, with delayed >writes, with EAs and other meta-data in the inodes, with a _full_suite_ >of user-space tools from xfsdump to xfs_fsr (defragmentor) to the off- >line xfs_repair tool. > >KEY POINT: This structure has _not_ changed since 1995. > >Everything has been built around that structure since 1995. There are >no new "hacks" to "extend" the filesystem's design. It was not left >"incomplete." And XFS was a _direct_port_ from Irix to Linux, bringing >a _lot_ of capability to the kernel itself. > >That included POSIX EA support from day 1, _official_ quota support even >_before_ Ext3, excellent kernel NFS support in the SGI XFS releases for >kernel 2.4 (although this is no longer the case) and many other details. >That is what I trusted from 2001-2004 -- especially the XFS 1.2 release >for Red Hat Linux 7.3 and 1.3.1 release for Red Hat Linux 9. > >Unfortunately, there is _no_ other XFS release I can trust. It's not >the filesystem itself, it's the _lack_ of consideration on several >levels. XFS and SGI could really, really, _really_ use Red Hat's >assistance on developing XFS as a "standard" filesystem for 2.6 kernel >distributions. It's not that XFS is "experimental," it's just the >changes that have occurred in the kernel since the filesystem first came >over, and was extremely mission critical. > >Including Red Hat changes like 4KiB stacks -- which I _do_ believe is a >good idea. In fact, I have been extremely complementary and supportive >of Red Hat's decision making versus SuSE, Debian and other >distributions. 9 times out of 10, Red Hat makes the best choice time >and time again. Ext3 was one of them. But Ext3 cannot continue to be >extended and still leverage its trusted structure that was _not_ >designed for the scale and features that enterprises now need. > >The problem is that everytime I bring this up, people treat me like I'm >some ReiserFS enthusiast who has never run large-scale NFS/SMB servers, >or a JFS advocate who doesn't know it's history on Linux. I _do_ use >Ext3 and I will _continue_ to deploy Ext3 for many filesystems. But >Ext3 is not "cutting it" for some large data filesystems, and it will >never offer what XFS has -- and more importantly -- has had since the >mid-'90s. > >ReiserFS and JFS are basically "no way" on Red Hat, with Red Hat's >services focus, and I explain this to people regularly. Even SuSE >developers admit what ReiserFS cannot support, and most understand why >Red Hat does not support it. But XFS quite different in its >compatibility, and it is only because of kernel changes and lack of >distro support why issues are now occurring. > > > >>If you want to send in customer feedback using the appropriate support >>channels would be a better idea. If you do believe that the page can >>highlight things in a better way that is invasive, make a alternative >>wiki page as a draft and point that to this list for dicussions >> >> > >I will. Until then, I invite people to read my blog. > >I'm an Ext3 system integrator. The problem is that the lack of XFS as a >complement to Ext3 is causing me to deploy Solaris/Opteron instead of >Linux/Opteron for LAN servers now. Again, I'm not so pundit with little >experience deploying mission critical LAN file servers claiming superior >performance out of ReiserFS, or JFS advocate who is oblivious to the >origins of Linux's JFS which has caused it's support issues. > >I really don't prefer Sun. But because of Red Hat's stance, I've gone >from moving from Solaris to Linux only to be moving back towards Solaris >for some services. Linux is great for web servers, database servers >(using "raw" volumes for Oracle, or smaller MySQL/PostgresSQL >filesystems), grid computing and other areas. But for large file >servers, the lack of a turnkey Linux distro with XFS (since the older >SGI releases), has pushed me back to UNIX, and Solaris is where it's at >for LAN fileservers -- especially on Opteron. > > > > 1. You're ranting. 2. You're doing it in the wrong place. 3. If you turn your passions into action, rather than ranting, you might be pleasantly surprised by the results. Your opinions regarding the assorted filesystems really are irrelevant to this list, as are the technical details behind those reasons. It is not that nobody cares, but nobody here is prepared to do anything about it. You should offer assistance to the developers of XFS on Linux. If upstream support for XFS improves, Red Hat and/or the Fedora Foundation will be more inclined to support it. As Rahul and I have suggested, you are welcome to create an *objective* wiki page, describing the reasons behind the inclusion/exclusion of different filesystem types. Anything else is off-topic on this list, and is likely to be met only with hostility or frustration. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 00:36:15 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 06:06:15 +0530 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 04:13 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Never is a long time. Ext3 is under active development and will continue >>to get more enhancements . >> >> > >Let me be the _first_ to thank Red Hat and Tweedie for the Ext3 >filesystem. I trust it implicitly. It started saving my bacon in early >2000, and I have trusted it ever since. It was a much needed, >evolutionary filesystem from _trusted_ Ext2 which has not changed since >the mid-'90s. There's nothing like knowing you can always do a full >Ext2 fsck -- that's something I trust. > >*BUT* I have 2 standing rules on my Ext3 deployments: > >1. No Ext3 filesystem is ever larger than 1TB. I try to keep them >100GB or smaller. I still use Ext3 for system volumes, and I would >_never_ use another filesystem for /, /tmp, /var and several other >filesystems. > > While I dont really want to take this further on this list, let me point to you the RHEL 4 U1 release notes. "The ext2 and ext3 filesystems have an internal limit of 8 TB. Devices up to this limit have been tested in Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 Update 1." >2. Avoid using Extended Attributes (EAs) on Ext3 for data filesystems, >except for SELinux. This is more of a backup consideration than >anything else. There is no "reliable" way to backup/restore EAs from >Ext3. Sorry, although I personally like Jorg's work, star is not what I >consider "enterprise quality." > > This is not a filesystem limitation regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Sep 12 00:57:34 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 19:57:34 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 06:06 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > While I dont really want to take this further on this list, let me point > to you the RHEL 4 U1 release notes. > "The ext2 and ext3 filesystems have an internal limit of 8 TB. Devices > up to this limit have been tested in Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 Update 1." And I understand it has even been raised to 17.6TB (16TiB) now. That's _not_ what I'm talking about. > This is not a filesystem limitation But lack of a good set of safe, trusted user-space utilities for the filesystem are. Red Hat offers a non-filesystem utility, star. That's not good for enterprises. And the more Red Hat tries to distract people from that, the more they are denying what they cannot offer. That's _exactly_ the self-defeating marketing I'm talking about. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 00:56:52 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 06:26:52 +0530 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4324D254.6080505@redhat.com> Hi >And I understand it has even been raised to 17.6TB (16TiB) now. >That's _not_ what I'm talking about. > > Your personal choices are not a list concern >>This is not a filesystem limitation >> >> > >That's _exactly_ the self-defeating marketing I'm talking about. > > We are not talking about RHEL marketing here regards Rahul From byte at aeon.com.my Mon Sep 12 01:54:57 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:54:57 +1000 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <43249946.6080608@n-man.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <43249946.6080608@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1126490097.29187.221.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 15:53 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Suggestion: Why don't you go ahead and write a wiki page about the > assorted filesystems, their strengths and weaknesses, and why some > aren't currently in Fedora. You could create the page at > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ/FileSystems and let me know when it > is > ready for review. Once we have a good version in place, we can write > in > just a small statement on the FedoraMyths page and direct the curious > to > the new page. If you would like to follow the progress of filesystem > support and keep that page a living document, that would be great. > We'll also create a link to the new page directly off of the FAQ. Yes Bryan, if you think the filesystem issue is /that/ important, that users of Fedora must know it all, then please by all means, create a sub-page on the wiki for this. We'll be happy to review it, and I'm sure we can get more technical heads from fedora-devel-list interested In the meantime, telling the marketing list about filesystem limitations does not help us in our cause in any way. If you're unhappy about the XFS file support, maybe you want to escalate working on it, cleaning it up, and submitting patches in Bugzilla (and about now you're going to point to eon old bugs open asking for xfs to be updated...) or better still, the upstream kernel Best regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Sep 12 03:15:58 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:15:58 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <4324D254.6080505@redhat.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324D254.6080505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1126494959.4573.343.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 06:26 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Your personal choices are not a list concern That's fine. Of course, what you call my "personal choices" is just one of the _many_ voices. If Fedora and Red Hat want to ignore these voices, then they make their own issues. Again, I'm not some garden variety punk who thinks Fedora should have this, Fedora should have that. I'm telling you not only what people who believe in Fedora Core, like Red Hat Linux before it, are feeling, but what others are picking up on. > We are not talking about RHEL marketing here It's all the same. What doesn't go into Fedora Core rarely makes it into Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Frankly, the tunnel vision I see regularly is what bothers me most. But the thing I always remember, which is the reason I love Red Hat, is the developers. Red Hat is a GPL company first and foremost, and until that changes, tunnel vision -- let alone the larger issue of marketing -- really doesn't matter to me. But I'm still forced to deploy Sun when I'd rather deploy Fedora/Red Hat. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 03:21:19 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 08:51:19 +0530 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126494959.4573.343.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324D254.6080505@redhat.com> <1126494959.4573.343.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4324F42F.8000006@redhat.com> Hi > > >>We are not talking about RHEL marketing here >> >> > >It's all the same. What doesn't go into Fedora Core rarely makes it >into Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Frankly, the tunnel vision I see >regularly is what bothers me most. > Its not tunnel vision. RHEL features and bugfixes are driven by the customer requests and support calls in a very real sense and not rants in a mailing list especially not ones in Fedora marketing list. If you want Red Hat to listen in relationship to RHEL, try http://redhat.com/support. For Fedora, here is how you contribute. Note that the amount of oppurtunities is much more than RHEL * File bug reports * File feature requests with good rationale. I would like to have more than 8 TB filesystems for such and such scenarios might be better than "I want XFS" * Write code and send in patches * Write documentation * Translate UI and docs * Package in Fedora Extras * Art work, themes and sound themes * Advocate * Last but not the least, use it There might be a few I have missed regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Sep 12 03:27:28 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:27:28 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126490097.29187.221.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <43249946.6080608@n-man.com> <1126490097.29187.221.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1126495648.4573.356.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 11:54 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > Yes Bryan, if you think the filesystem issue is /that/ important, that > users of Fedora must know it all, then please by all means, create a > sub-page on the wiki for this. We'll be happy to review it, and I'm sure > we can get more technical heads from fedora-devel-list interested And I said I _would_ do this over the next few days. I'm working 7 days a week right now, and will get you it ASAP. It will be polished and professional in tone, focus as well as legal-base. > In the meantime, telling the marketing list about filesystem limitations > does not help us in our cause in any way. I was just pointing out the fact that Fedora/Red Hat has continually hurt itself on the filesystems point because it does _not_ directly address why ReiserFS and JFS are not included, plays games in general it does _not_ have to -- but even worse -- goes one step further, acting like all of us long-time integrators and Ext3 proponents don't exist when we say "it's time to get serious about XFS." > If you're unhappy about the XFS file support, No. That's not it at all! Do _not_ belittle my statements as such because you are belittling a _lot_ of consultants at Fortune 100 companies when you say such. What I'm unhappy about the "marketing" aspects of why XFS is _not_ supported. I would much rather Fedora/Red Hat say, "we can't afford the personnel to develop and support a 2nd filesystem." That would be direct, fair and understanding. But the comments that Ext3 does everything XFS does, Ext3 does not have limitations that XFS solves, refer to it as "experimental" and other comments insult the intelligence of those of us who actually deploy Fedora/Red Hat solutions. That's the problem. Again, if Red Hat says it does not want to support a 2nd filesystem, that's one thing. But 99% of the comments I see on XFS, and why Fedora/Red Hat is not looking at it for the future, are full of FUD. Sadly enough, it's in Fedora/Red Hat's own, best interest. Even Sun has basically all but said it. > maybe you want to escalate working on it, cleaning it > up, and submitting patches in Bugzilla (and about now you're going to > point to eon old bugs open asking for xfs to be updated...) or better > still, the upstream kernel You're kidding me, right? Do you _know_ the effort that would be involved?! There is already a company, SGI, and their OSS team that is _more_than_willing_ to work with Red Hat and the Fedora developers. But at this point, from what I've seen, it's been a 1-way street. That's the problem. My point has been, and will continue to be, that Red Hat, including those who work on Fedora Core as their paid job functions, needs to put people on integration and support of XFS for its _own_ future. It's not "XFS v. Ext3" -- it's "XFS to complement Ext3." 99% of the comments I see are "versus" comments. Hence the continued problem, hence the actual reversal _away_ from Fedora Core and Red Hat Enterprise Linux for some applications. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 03:30:31 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 09:00:31 +0530 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126495648.4573.356.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <43249946.6080608@n-man.com> <1126490097.29187.221.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126495648.4573.356.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4324F657.6090904@redhat.com> What I'm unhappy about the "marketing" aspects of why XFS is _not_ >supported. I would much rather Fedora/Red Hat say, "we can't afford the >personnel to develop and support a 2nd filesystem." That would be >direct, fair and understanding. > > The official answer for RHEL is here: http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_80_5737.shtm >But the comments that Ext3 does everything XFS does, Ext3 does not have >limitations that XFS solves, refer to it as "experimental" and other >comments insult the intelligence of those of us who actually deploy >Fedora/Red Hat solutions. > >That's the problem. Again, if Red Hat says it does not want to support >a 2nd filesystem, that's one thing. But 99% of the comments I see on >XFS, and why Fedora/Red Hat is not looking at it for the future, are >full of FUD. > Again, You should be specific about what you consider FUD in the Fedora Myths page. Avoid long rants. If anyone is willing to step up and maintain XFS or any other filesystem for that matter in Fedora, it can be send to the fedora development list. regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Sep 12 03:45:28 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:45:28 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <4324F42F.8000006@redhat.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324D254.6080505@redhat.com> <1126494959.4573.343.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324F42F.8000006@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1126496728.4573.375.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 08:51 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Its not tunnel vision. >From the answers I've seen, it is -- it damn is. > RHEL features and bugfixes are driven by the customer requests and > support calls in a very real sense Because Red Hat is getting web servers and Oracle servers (raw slices) and grid computing sales. Red Hat is now _losing_ multi-TB file server sales because they can_not_ deliver on it with just Ext3 -- especially given its lack of user-space filesystem support. Sun is eating that up. I guess Red Hat has decided it is not worth doing? Or is it because the Fedora developments, including those by its own developers who obliviously think "Ext3 doesn't do anything XFS does." That's marketing -- however you slice it -- and a major issue. > and not rants in a mailing list This isn't a "rant." This is me, a system integrator at Fortune 100 companies over the last 4 years, telling you not only what I have experienced, but what others have experienced. We cannot offer Fedora Core and Red Hat Enterprise Linux solutions -- and it starts with Fedora developments. The fact that you're taking it as a "rant" instead of -- "hmmm, maybe there is a 4-year 'suggestion' this guy is trying to make" -- goes to the heart of the matter. I'm not the only "ranting lunatic" out there having to "move back" to Solaris for solutions. > especially not ones in Fedora marketing list. I honestly don't know where else to turn. And when I read the rather "say nothing" portion that just feeds the ReiserFS and JFS proponents their "Red Hat is unfairly biased towards Ext3" non-sense, I have to agree with them from the XFS mis-conceptions presented. > If you want Red Hat to listen in relationship to RHEL, try > http://redhat.com/support. Been there -- a good 4 years. > For Fedora, here is how you contribute. Note that the amount of > oppurtunities is much more than RHEL Yes, I know. > * File bug reports > * File feature requests with good rationale. I would like to have more > than 8 TB filesystems for such and such scenarios might be better than > "I want XFS" You didn't hear a word I said. That is so sad. > * Write code and send in patches I'll get farther with SGI than I will Red Hat. I'm asking -- at the Fedora level -- to try to get Red Hat involved. I've been trying various avenues for 4 years now to no avail. And it's only getting more pertinent as Solaris is now on Opteron. > * Write documentation Way, way -- WAY AHEAD -- of you there. > * Translate UI and docs > * Package in Fedora Extras I'm actually looking to submit several Fedora Extras packages. > * Art work, themes and sound themes > * Advocate I'm well known as a "Red Hat apologist" (even though I hate the title). So I find it humorous that you would suggest that to me. ;-> > * Last but not the least, use it Considering I've been integrating Fedora Core in companies as large as one major Fortune 20 company in just the last 2 years, and several other Fortune 100 companies as well -- again, WAY AHEAD OF YOU THERE. > There might be a few I have missed Again, I'm not some "I want filesystem X" puke. But I know you'll feel free to take my comments as such. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 03:43:52 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 09:13:52 +0530 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126494959.4573.343.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324D254.6080505@redhat.com> <1126494959.4573.343.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4324F978.3010003@redhat.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 06:26 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Your personal choices are not a list concern >> >> > >That's fine. Of course, what you call my "personal choices" is just one >of the _many_ voices. If Fedora and Red Hat want to ignore these >voices, then they make their own issues. > >Again, I'm not some garden variety punk who thinks Fedora should have >this, Fedora should have that. I'm telling you not only what people who >believe in Fedora Core, like Red Hat Linux before it, are feeling, but >what others are picking up on. > > You have mentioned the 1 TB limit on how you would setup your systems. However since this isnt a technical limitation of the filesystem it doesnt make a case for other filesystems. It merely states your opinion on what you consider the limit which is entirely subjective.. regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 03:50:04 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 09:20:04 +0530 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126496728.4573.375.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324D254.6080505@redhat.com> <1126494959.4573.343.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324F42F.8000006@redhat.com> <1126496728.4573.375.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4324FAEC.9000505@redhat.com> Hi >I honestly don't know where else to turn. And when I read the rather >"say nothing" portion that just feeds the ReiserFS and JFS proponents >their "Red Hat is unfairly biased towards Ext3" non-sense, I have to >agree with them from the XFS mis-conceptions presented. > > If you are willing to take up the initiative to get other filesystem supported then send in a mail to fedora-devel with your detailed proposal. Red Hat is certainly biased towards ext3 since Red Hat has the necessary expertise to support it and enhance it as required as opposed to other filesystems. The only difference in relationship with Fedora is that the community can participate and take over maintenance other filesystems and things that Red Hat isnt able to allocate resources towards. I dont see Fedora myths page talking about feature comparisons for precisely this reason regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Sep 12 03:55:45 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:55:45 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <4324F657.6090904@redhat.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <43249946.6080608@n-man.com> <1126490097.29187.221.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126495648.4573.356.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324F657.6090904@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1126497345.4573.384.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 09:00 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > The official answer for RHEL is here: > http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_80_5737.shtm And while it is applicable to ReiserFS and JFS, it has _not_ been applicable to XFS. There have been numerous points during the 2.4 kernel where XFS was _better_ than Ext3 in support areas Red Hat sorely needed -- from quotas to ACLs to (and still today) filesystem backup (especially on-line). This answer is oblivious to reality on XFS. I've read the same comments again and again -- others have done the same -- and everytime it's FUD. People making the comments are actually unfamiliar with all the issues solved by XFS. Again, that viewpoint _is_ applicable to ReiserFS and JFS. As a proponent of Ext3 myself, I _do_ advocate why Red Hat does not support ReiserFS and JFS. But that advocacy _falls_flat_ when it comes to XFS. Anyone who knows the history of XFS' development and release on Linux knows this. It's a _total_joke_ in the XFS group when Fedora/Red Hat come back and say "oh, there's nothing XFS does that Ext3 doesn't do" and there are all these "exceptions" they end up agreeing to -- such as the lack of so many "standard" on-line user-space tools in traditional UNIX filesystems that XFS has (since day 1 on Linux), the varying EA support and history of quota support, the removal on relying on the LVM2/DM stack to solve so many things (such as the lack of on-line user-space tools) which introduce more race conditions, etc... That's what I'm talking about -- key enterprise features that are _expected_ in a multi-TB UNIX filesystem. Which forces us to send our clients to Solaris, instead of Fedora Core or Red Hat Enterprise Linux. > Again, You should be specific about what you consider FUD in the Fedora > Myths page. Avoid long rants. I've got plenty of specifics, and I've tried to address them here, as well as in posts before. But apparently you don't want to read what you consider a "long rant." That's just sad, because it is _not_ a "long rant." > If anyone is willing to step up and maintain XFS or any other filesystem > for that matter in Fedora, it can be send to the fedora development > list. Try SGI and the XFS team. Unfortunately, it takes some level of "formal engagement" from Red Hat/Fedora kernel developers too. That hasn't happened from what I've seen over 4 years and, sadly enough, it's in Red Hat's own, best interest. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From gdk at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 03:49:05 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126496728.4573.375.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324D254.6080505@redhat.com> <1126494959.4573.343.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324F42F.8000006@redhat.com> <1126496728.4573.375.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: Boys, boys. You're both pretty. :) Bryan, I get your point. Lemme talk to some smart folks and see what the general feeling is around XFS "inside the walls." I'm kinda curious myself now. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Sun, 11 Sep 2005, Bryan J. Smith wrote: > On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 08:51 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Its not tunnel vision. > > >From the answers I've seen, it is -- it damn is. > > > RHEL features and bugfixes are driven by the customer requests and > > support calls in a very real sense > > Because Red Hat is getting web servers and Oracle servers (raw slices) > and grid computing sales. Red Hat is now _losing_ multi-TB file server > sales because they can_not_ deliver on it with just Ext3 -- especially > given its lack of user-space filesystem support. > > Sun is eating that up. I guess Red Hat has decided it is not worth > doing? Or is it because the Fedora developments, including those by its > own developers who obliviously think "Ext3 doesn't do anything XFS > does." > > That's marketing -- however you slice it -- and a major issue. > > > and not rants in a mailing list > > This isn't a "rant." This is me, a system integrator at Fortune 100 > companies over the last 4 years, telling you not only what I have > experienced, but what others have experienced. We cannot offer Fedora > Core and Red Hat Enterprise Linux solutions -- and it starts with Fedora > developments. > > The fact that you're taking it as a "rant" instead of -- "hmmm, maybe > there is a 4-year 'suggestion' this guy is trying to make" -- goes to > the heart of the matter. I'm not the only "ranting lunatic" out there > having to "move back" to Solaris for solutions. > > > especially not ones in Fedora marketing list. > > I honestly don't know where else to turn. And when I read the rather > "say nothing" portion that just feeds the ReiserFS and JFS proponents > their "Red Hat is unfairly biased towards Ext3" non-sense, I have to > agree with them from the XFS mis-conceptions presented. > > > If you want Red Hat to listen in relationship to RHEL, try > > http://redhat.com/support. > > Been there -- a good 4 years. > > > For Fedora, here is how you contribute. Note that the amount of > > oppurtunities is much more than RHEL > > Yes, I know. > > > * File bug reports > > * File feature requests with good rationale. I would like to have more > > than 8 TB filesystems for such and such scenarios might be better than > > "I want XFS" > > You didn't hear a word I said. That is so sad. > > > * Write code and send in patches > > I'll get farther with SGI than I will Red Hat. I'm asking -- at the > Fedora level -- to try to get Red Hat involved. I've been trying > various avenues for 4 years now to no avail. > > And it's only getting more pertinent as Solaris is now on Opteron. > > > * Write documentation > > Way, way -- WAY AHEAD -- of you there. > > > * Translate UI and docs > > * Package in Fedora Extras > > I'm actually looking to submit several Fedora Extras packages. > > > * Art work, themes and sound themes > > * Advocate > > I'm well known as a "Red Hat apologist" (even though I hate the title). > So I find it humorous that you would suggest that to me. ;-> > > > * Last but not the least, use it > > Considering I've been integrating Fedora Core in companies as large as > one major Fortune 20 company in just the last 2 years, and several other > Fortune 100 companies as well -- again, WAY AHEAD OF YOU THERE. > > > There might be a few I have missed > > Again, I'm not some "I want filesystem X" puke. > But I know you'll feel free to take my comments as such. > > > -- > Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if > you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 03:57:17 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 09:27:17 +0530 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126497345.4573.384.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <43249946.6080608@n-man.com> <1126490097.29187.221.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126495648.4573.356.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324F657.6090904@redhat.com> <1126497345.4573.384.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <4324FC9D.1020702@redhat.com> Bryan J. Smith wrote: >On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 09:00 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>The official answer for RHEL is here: >>http://kbase.redhat.com/faq/FAQ_80_5737.shtm >> >> > >And while it is applicable to ReiserFS and JFS, it has _not_ been >applicable to XFS. There have been numerous points during the 2.4 >kernel where XFS was _better_ than Ext3 in support areas Red Hat sorely >needed -- from quotas to ACLs to (and still today) filesystem backup >(especially on-line). > That FAQ doesnt talk about specific features and hence applies to all filesystems regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Sep 12 04:04:52 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:04:52 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <4324FAEC.9000505@redhat.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324D254.6080505@redhat.com> <1126494959.4573.343.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324F42F.8000006@redhat.com> <1126496728.4573.375.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324FAEC.9000505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1126497892.4573.393.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 09:20 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > If you are willing to take up the initiative to get other filesystem > supported then send in a mail to fedora-devel with your detailed > proposal. I'll discuss this over on the XFS list. I need to get a better feel on what they believe would be required involvement on the Fedora end. But I know it's going to bring up some old history and/or bad tastes. > Red Hat is certainly biased towards ext3 since Red Hat has the > necessary expertise to support it and enhance it as required as opposed > to other filesystems. And I'm telling you until Red Hat puts forth the interest to see XFS as "the complement" to Ext3 it really needs, then it matters really little. Which is why I've been trying to see Red Hat get serious about its future by putting forth the effort to integrate XFS formally. Especially when there were 2-4 years ago, as there are even some still now, various things that XFS supports that Ext3 does not. And no, I'm not talking about "speed" or other "performance" non-sense. I'm talking about enterprise features -- like on-line user-space tools, etc... > The only difference in relationship with Fedora is > that the community can participate and take over maintenance other > filesystems and things that Red Hat isnt able to allocate resources > towards. Then _that's_ what needs to be said -- that Red Hat isn't able to allocate resources towards a 2nd filesystem. I'd more than accept that. But anyone who knows anything about the histories of both Ext3 and XFS on Linux -- especially those of us who have deployed both over the years -- do _not_ accept the oblivious "XFS doesn't do anything Ext3 can" non- sense. It's an argument that _is_ valid against ReiserFS and JFS for Fedora/Red Hat's focus that also gets, quite inaccurately, applied against XFS. > I dont see Fedora myths page talking about feature comparisons > for precisely this reason It's not about "features." It's about things like lack of EA support which makes it impossible for ReiserFS and JFS to support SELinux, various history of kernel NFS, quote and other "standard" kernel interface/support issues with ReiserFS and JFS, etc... Things that are _core_ to Fedora Core/Red Hat releases that are "show stoppers." But things that are _not_ true in the case of XFS. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Sep 12 04:08:54 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:08:54 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <4324FC9D.1020702@redhat.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <43249946.6080608@n-man.com> <1126490097.29187.221.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126495648.4573.356.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324F657.6090904@redhat.com> <1126497345.4573.384.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324FC9D.1020702@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1126498134.4573.398.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 09:27 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > That FAQ doesnt talk about specific features and hence applies to all > filesystems Again, that's the blanket problem. And it's not about "features." So from the Fedora Myths page, it's about the reality that Fedora Core ships as a platform that does X, Y and Z. Because ReiserFS and JFS don't support X, Y and/or Z, they are not options -- and likely never will be until they do. The lack of such support is the "show stopper" for inclusion. But then that's a problem for FS, because it _does_ do X, Y and Z -- EA ACL/SELinux, Quotas, NFS, etc... So there is another reason why it's not included by default. E.g., XFS has known issues with 4KiB stacks, and some NFS support issues have been introduced in kernel 2.6 (that didn't exist with SGI's kernel 2.4 implementations). I can be very, very technically accurate, but not "over-assuming" at the same time -- especially from the legal aspect of claiming things that might be disputable. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 04:18:27 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 09:48:27 +0530 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126498134.4573.398.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <43249946.6080608@n-man.com> <1126490097.29187.221.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126495648.4573.356.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324F657.6090904@redhat.com> <1126497345.4573.384.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324FC9D.1020702@redhat.com> <1126498134.4573.398.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <43250193.7020306@redhat.com> Hi >doOn Mon, 2005-09-12 at 09:27 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>That FAQ doesnt talk about specific features and hence applies to all >>filesystems >> >> > >Again, that's the blanket problem. >And it's not about "features." > > Its also about resources. Fedora myths page can simply say this " Red Hat does not have the resources require to support other filesystems besides ext3 though it is provided as a option during the installation with specific parameters. If the community has sufficient interest in other filesystems to maintain it, send in a proposal to the Fedora development list with the details." I would recommend not talking about specific features unless someone is willing to keep it updated regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 04:27:22 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 09:57:22 +0530 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: <1126497892.4573.393.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324D254.6080505@redhat.com> <1126494959.4573.343.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324F42F.8000006@redhat.com> <1126496728.4573.375.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324FAEC.9000505@redhat.com> <1126497892.4573.393.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <432503AA.20906@redhat.com> Hi >Then _that's_ what needs to be said -- that Red Hat isn't able to >allocate resources towards a 2nd filesystem. I'd more than accept that. > > As far as I know no formal statements that ext3 supports all features that other filesystems do have been made by Red Hat. What has been repeatedly pointed out is the question of resources vs gain and requests in specific features that customers want based on their scenarios. If you do send in such a list to Red Hat support or partners , due consideration will given to those. For Fedora, get a detailed realistic plan to the fedora development list. Rest of the discussion doesnt really matter regards Rahul From b.j.smith at ieee.org Mon Sep 12 04:50:47 2005 From: b.j.smith at ieee.org (Bryan J. Smith) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 23:50:47 -0500 Subject: For this weeks meeting agenda... In-Reply-To: References: <1126359457.29187.7.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126414992.4573.31.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4323C8C7.5050305@n-man.com> <1126432485.4573.105.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126432891.4573.113.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126433087.4573.115.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <1126451534.2903.140.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126461691.4573.218.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324B327.2070505@redhat.com> <1126483141.4573.335.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324CD7F.7060004@redhat.com> <1126486654.4573.339.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324D254.6080505@redhat.com> <1126494959.4573.343.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> <4324F42F.8000006@redhat.com> <1126496728.4573.375.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> Message-ID: <1126500647.4573.409.camel@bert64.oviedo.smithconcepts.com> On Sun, 2005-09-11 at 23:49 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Bryan, I get your point. Thanx. Remember, I'm an "outsider." I do a lot of marketing of Fedora Core, and I've always stuck right by Red Hat's decisions because of all the trademark mess (no good deed goes unpunished, and that's exactly what Red Hat's goodwill has always been taken as by so many companies). > Lemme talk to some smart folks and see what the general feeling is > around XFS "inside the walls." I'm sure the big issue is the adoption of 4KiB stacks, something I agree very much with Red Hat on, but I know SGI has had issues. > I'm kinda curious myself now. Again, I'll put together something for the wiki by Tuesday, possibly tomorrow night. I just started with a new company this week -- and we're deep into hurricane deployments of our technology for communications. -- Bryan J. Smith b.j.smith at ieee.org http://thebs413.blogspot.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The best things in life are NOT free - which is why life is easiest if you save all the bills until you can share them with the perfect woman From gdk at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 18:06:09 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: November's Red Hat Magazine: All About Fedora Message-ID: Talking with Tammy Fox, the editor of Red Hat Magazine, and she's going to be focusing entirely on Fedora for the November issue. Consider this a call-to-arms. :) Let's brainstorm some stories. A few ideas to start: * FUDCon London 2005 overview * Fedora CMCs (assuming we've got the program in place) * HOWTO build your own Fedora Live CD I'm sure there's plenty more ideas out there. Let's hear 'em. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sopwith at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 18:20:17 2005 From: sopwith at redhat.com (Elliot Lee) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 14:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: November's Red Hat Magazine: All About Fedora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > * HOWTO build your own Fedora Live CD My vague impression of the whole Fedora Live CD thing was that we were aiming to distribute a single Fedora-provided LiveCD .iso that would work for a vast majority of people, making the process of building a livecd uninteresting for the Red Hat Magazine audience... Have I assumed differently from others? Best, -- Elliot Pioneers get the Arrows. Settlers get the Land. From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 19:44:47 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 01:14:47 +0530 Subject: November's Red Hat Magazine: All About Fedora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4325DAAF.5060604@redhat.com> Elliot Lee wrote: >On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > >>* HOWTO build your own Fedora Live CD >> >> > >My vague impression of the whole Fedora Live CD thing was that we were >aiming to distribute a single Fedora-provided LiveCD .iso that would work >for a vast majority of people, making the process of building a livecd >uninteresting for the Redhat Hat Magazine audience... Have I assumed >differently from others? > The tools allows users to mix and match packages and create their own CD's. While we can create a official CD, we should be encouraging others to experiement and create their own live CD that explore alternative GUI's and other niche targets regards Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Mon Sep 12 19:57:55 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:57:55 -0400 Subject: November's Red Hat Magazine: All About Fedora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910509121257169e9171@mail.gmail.com> On 9/12/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > Talking with Tammy Fox, the editor of Red Hat Magazine, and she's going to > be focusing entirely on Fedora for the November issue. > > Consider this a call-to-arms. :) Let's brainstorm some stories. A few > ideas to start: > > * FUDCon London 2005 overview > * Fedora CMCs (assuming we've got the program in place) > * HOWTO build your own Fedora Live CD > > I'm sure there's plenty more ideas out there. Let's hear 'em. you need a graph...something versus time...hmm Extras packages versus time? Extras contributors versus time? d(package(r)s)/dt versus time -jef"I wonder what a contour map of contributor pressure over the surface of the planet would look like.. where contributor pressure is defined as the surface density of contributors weighted by rate of contributor activity"spaleta From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 20:32:13 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 02:02:13 +0530 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! Message-ID: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> Hi http://www.nascencetech.com/newvillageboy/2005/09/05/full-review-fedora-core-4/ If anyone is willing to pick this up and respond to the comments, go ahead. Not much to tackle here regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 21:00:07 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 02:30:07 +0530 Subject: Distrowatch this week and Fedora Message-ID: <4325EC57.5060305@redhat.com> Hi http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20050912 * Comparisons on bootup time with Fedora * Linux+ Magazine has reviewed Fedora and included FC and FE in that CD. * The article mentions that the magazine on the whole has a bias towards Fedora. Someone in Europe might want to get their hands on this one A new Live CD based on Fedora called Network Security toolkit has been mentioned in the article.This is precisely the kind of needs that Fedora's Live CD tool could serve regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Mon Sep 12 22:32:20 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 15:32:20 -0700 Subject: November's Red Hat Magazine: All About Fedora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1126564340.2969.32.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 14:06 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Talking with Tammy Fox, the editor of Red Hat Magazine, and she's going to > be focusing entirely on Fedora for the November issue. > > Consider this a call-to-arms. :) Let's brainstorm some stories. A few > ideas to start: > > * FUDCon London 2005 overview > * Fedora CMCs (assuming we've got the program in place) > * HOWTO build your own Fedora Live CD > > I'm sure there's plenty more ideas out there. Let's hear 'em. Any interest in an article about how we've modularized release notes writing? "Release Notes Beats: Old Journalism for the New World" Something like that ... Also, a "book review" of the Fedora Installation Guide might nice. How about, "Contributing to Fedora, It's More Than Coding" that highlights bug triage, documentation, packaging, Legacy support, etc. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 02:22:19 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:22:19 -0400 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> On 9/12/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > http://www.nascencetech.com/newvillageboy/2005/09/05/full-review-fedora-core-4/ > > If anyone is willing to pick this up and respond to the comments, go > ahead. Not much to tackle here here's my email to the author I just read your review and I'd like to take a moment to give you some background and updates on some of the negative points you bring up about your fc4 experience. Its a pretty well reasoned review overall, and I appreciate the effort you made to identify your personal experience with KDE and potential personal bias right upfront. "This being my first experience with Fedora Core, I was surprised and annoyed to find that the only native Linux filesystems available for selection were ext2 and ext3. My main Linux machines are running Gentoo and Kubuntu and all of them are either using ReiserFS or XFS. The main reason for giving up ext3 is performance, or rather the lack of it. A more detailed analysis of this can be found here." Making a choice as to which filesystems to support is a complicated decision. Performance in different circumstances is one thing to consider, but its also important to look at maintainability as well as integration of the filesystem with other aspects of the system. How well is the filesystem supported in the mainline kernel? How well does the filesystem support other key aspects of the operating system? I'm not going to try to debate benchmarks with you, instead I'll point out that the default filesystem in Fedora needs to be able to work reliably with other features such as selinux. The alternative filesystems you mention each have their own strengths, but fail to meet the integration and reliability needs of Fedora Core as a whole. As you can see from the unofficial fedora faq, people can get access to these filesystems but they aren't presented to users by default. I hope you appreciate the logic in that. For the unsuspecting user who doesn't know anything about filesystem differences, it makes the most sense to streamline the install process with the filesystem that has the confidence of the distribution developers who will be responding to problems. For more experienced users who can support themselves or who can work with upstream if a problem arises, we can definitely do a better job of documenting how you get access to those additional choices. The process for how the release notes are written has undergone a transition and will be under more direct control from active community writers. Some of the fedorafaq.org material about how to enable this alternative filesystems could very well make it into the release notes for fc5 in the new process: http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/ReleaseNotes/Beats You'll notice there is a "filesystems" beat listed and a slot open. You wouldn't happen to know someone interesting in patrolling that beat would you? "As mentioned above, FC4 lacks certain applications and libraries that do not come under any bona fide Open Source Initiative-approved licenses. A number of these are pervasive enough that they have become essential parts of any desktop system: 1. Java support 2. Macromedia Flash support in Firefox 3. MP3 support 4. Producer 3D support for NVidia and ATI cards" This is a much tougher issue because of Red Hat's managerial role, the project has to respect the opinion of Red Hat's legal counsel and avoid opening up legal liability for Red Hat. I assure you, no one is particularly thrilled with not being able to direct users to 3rd party's who provide the applications. Okay well, I'm sure there are certain developers who would love it if addon hardware drivers would stop being used completely because the amount of system instability and bugreports that result...but we all know thats not going to stop happening. Yes, Fedora Core and Fedora Extras are dedicated to providing 100% open source functionality but the project also realizes that there are gaps in the technology we are able to provide. The project is trying to walk the line as best it can, and there have been on-going conversations to better define exactly what that line is. One of the results of discussion is the FC4 release note errata which provides a link to fedorafaq.org for users to find answers to commonly asked questions. http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/errata/ I expect a similar pointer to an unofficial faq to be provided in the fc5 notes unless of course the legal landscape changes in the meantime. "One MAJOR grouse I have is the inclusion of the up2date icon that appears automatically after installation. It maintains that I have no updates necessary, which I found suspicious as FC4 had been released for almost 3 months. Further checking on the Unofficial Fedora FAQ website revealed that up2date still works but "it no longer uses the Red Hat Network (RHN). However, with Fedora, it's better to use yum to get updates, instead of up2date." Now, that sounds like a good reason as any to dump up2date and just create a GUI front-end for the command line tool yum instead. Issuing "yum update" for the first time revealed a whopping 131 packages to be updated, including some rather critical ones for Firefox, for example. In this respect, the up2date status notification that "no updates (are) available" sounds almost malicious." Sadly, there is a bug in up2date/rhn-applet that is misparsing the configuration files. The ability to use the same metadata and configuration files as yum was added before fc4 but there was an unexpected problem found after fc4 branched from development. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=161071 I have not personally seen a written communication saying that up2date/rhn-applet are going to be removed in fc5, but I do believe people are working on a replacement gui. If I had a better sense as to where development on the new codebase stood I'd give you a reference to it. There has also been an effort to better document how to use yum in the near term. http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/yum/index.html I hope these answers have helped. With your permission I'd like to repost this conversation to the fedora-marketing list to make sure that the marketing team has a chance to correct any factual mistakes and to make sure I have not mis-interpreted the project's position on any of these issues. -jef From barzilay at redhat.com Tue Sep 13 07:24:22 2005 From: barzilay at redhat.com (David Barzilay) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:24:22 +1000 Subject: November's Red Hat Magazine: All About Fedora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1126596262.5834.51.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> Hi All, I still insist on a more professional approach, which means I suggest for us to come up with a Communication Plan for Fedora, that could be divided in a few sub-projects: . Surveys (or blogs thorough analysis, distrowatch comparisons, etc) on Fedora usage to find out what are the features perceived as benefits by users (not by developers) - the reasons why they opt for Fedora, instead of another free OS distro - and also the ones perceived as issues . Next, focus on communicating these benefits consistently across all available media (including RHMag, fedoraproject.org, localised websites, blogs, etc) on a timely manner e.g.: RHMag can cover two or three benefits of Fedora each month. Then, other media can approach the same benefits to enforce and support the message... BTW, I believe such a process should be an ongoing activity to make sure we walk along with the users community needs. But, if we insist working on an ad-hoc basis, here are a few suggestions for this issue: . Promote 32-bit applications support . Communicate FF news . Communicate Fedora Chinese Mirror (maybe call for other mirrors where we lack'em worlwide?) . Bring users testimonials on Fedora (it usually works very well for new users adoption) . Promote Fedora's worldwide reach, and languages localization . Include Fedora trustworthy URLs Thanks for listening! Best, -- David Barzilay On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 14:06 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Talking with Tammy Fox, the editor of Red Hat Magazine, and she's going to > be focusing entirely on Fedora for the November issue. > > Consider this a call-to-arms. :) Let's brainstorm some stories. A few > ideas to start: > > * FUDCon London 2005 overview > * Fedora CMCs (assuming we've got the program in place) > * HOWTO build your own Fedora Live CD > > I'm sure there's plenty more ideas out there. Let's hear 'em. > > --g > > _____________________ ____________________________________________ > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From luya at jpopmail.com Tue Sep 13 16:35:39 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 08:35:39 -0800 Subject: Distrowatch this week and Fedora (Rahul Sundaram) Message-ID: <20050913163539.2CD1723D09@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> I will check out if that issue magazine is available to my area. One of my favorite bookstore went bankrupt but they used to offer a great deal. Luya > Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 02:30:07 +0530 > From: Rahul Sundaram > Subject: Distrowatch this week and Fedora > To: Discussions on expanding the Fedora user base > > Message-ID: <4325EC57.5060305 at redhat.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > Hi > > http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20050912 > > * Comparisons on bootup time with Fedora > * Linux+ Magazine has reviewed Fedora and included FC and FE in that CD. > * The article mentions that the magazine on the whole has a bias towards > Fedora. Someone in Europe might want to get their hands on this one > > A new Live CD based on Fedora called Network Security toolkit has been > mentioned in the article.This is precisely the kind of needs that > Fedora's Live CD tool could serve > > regards > Rahul > -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.jp.popstarmail.org From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Sep 13 16:37:58 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 22:07:58 +0530 Subject: Distrowatch this week and Fedora (Rahul Sundaram) In-Reply-To: <20050913163539.2CD1723D09@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050913163539.2CD1723D09@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <43270066.1060803@redhat.com> Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: >I will check out if that issue magazine is available to my >area. One of my favorite bookstore went bankrupt but they >used to offer a great deal. > >Luya > Ok. Thanks. let us know how it goes regards Rahul From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Tue Sep 13 19:33:11 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 15:33:11 -0400 Subject: November's Red Hat Magazine: All About Fedora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <556f970a05091312335bb9226c@mail.gmail.com> On 9/12/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > I'm sure there's plenty more ideas out there. Let's hear 'em. * use it to launch new logo/rebranding * use it to position fedora (with or without matrix of similar/popular distros * launch the LiveCD with it, and make the how-to about how that was done v. doing your own * spotlight on future RHEL features to watch/hack on now * Fedora on the XBox (or insert hot gadget hack here) * profile company commercializing fedora in some way * profile organization(s) and use(s) of fedora * show the community and site org (map or flow chart style design) * how/where to contribute (packages into extras, patches/bug fixes, etc) * hit list of things/people fedora needs * spotlight on a couple of key developers/contributions * recruit * recruit * recruit --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 00:39:20 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 17:39:20 -0700 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 22:22 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/12/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > Hi > > > > http://www.nascencetech.com/newvillageboy/2005/09/05/full-review-fedora-core-4/ > > > > If anyone is willing to pick this up and respond to the comments, go > > ahead. Not much to tackle here > > here's my email to the author +1 to Jeff for your excellent knowledge of available documentation and for recruiting for relnotes beat writers. That's the stuff! - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Sep 15 00:44:49 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:44:49 +0800 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <4328C401.5070806@smlintl.com.au> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Mon, 2005-09-12 at 22:22 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > >>On 9/12/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: >> >>>Hi >>> >>>http://www.nascencetech.com/newvillageboy/2005/09/05/full-review-fedora-core-4/ >>> >>>If anyone is willing to pick this up and respond to the comments, go >>>ahead. Not much to tackle here >> >>here's my email to the author > > > +1 to Jeff for your excellent knowledge of available documentation and > for recruiting for relnotes beat writers. That's the stuff! > +1 from me as well very well written. Marc From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 00:59:18 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:59:18 -0400 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910509141759190acc27@mail.gmail.com> On 9/14/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > +1 to Jeff for your excellent knowledge of available documentation and > for recruiting for relnotes beat writers. That's the stuff! Other than my..shall we say..defensive..use of the call for beat writers as a subtle variant of "put up or shut up" is anyone else actually pounding the streets for people.. pressing the flesh? bashing heads? blackmailing? making grandiose and misleading promises? The beat writer stuff seems to be pretty reasonable sized chunks of responsibility. Where exactly do we hang the virtual "help wanted" sign to get as many eyeballs as possible looking over that last as possible? How much does a Google text ad go for? Cuz man.. how many fedora meatheads are like me.. and are using gmail for all this list traffic... can we actually find a way to get project help wanted adverts into their gmail interface? -jef From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Sep 15 01:36:50 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:36:50 +0800 Subject: Pakistan and possible potential for fedora Message-ID: <4328D032.5060400@smlintl.com.au> I was googling yesterday relating to some information about ISP's and what type of OS's they were running when I came across an article on zdnet. http://www.zdnetindia.com/news/features/stories/763,59271.html/ Now on top of that there was a university lecturer saying how OSS is making huge inroads into Pakistan. Now being in the marketing group is there a way where we can capitalise on this and provide maybe some information and or howto's or some further information to grow Fedora there? I'm not sure how to go about this but I know personally the fact that the government is getting involved is very different to just the community getting involved. Any ideas since to me I see it as an opportunity compared to for instance my country of origin which is in a sad and useless state when it comes to OSS and the government. :( e.g. The leader of the opposition in my state doesn't know what linux is. Regards, Marc From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Sep 15 01:41:39 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:41:39 +0800 Subject: Pakistan and possible potential for fedora In-Reply-To: <4328D032.5060400@smlintl.com.au> References: <4328D032.5060400@smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <4328D153.9020707@smlintl.com.au> I know about the age of the article it was still relevant when I read the university professors article which was current. Regards, Marc From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Sep 15 01:45:35 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:45:35 +0800 Subject: Pakistan and possible potential for fedora In-Reply-To: <4328D153.9020707@smlintl.com.au> References: <4328D032.5060400@smlintl.com.au> <4328D153.9020707@smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <4328D23F.4000205@smlintl.com.au> A bit more info. I more interested in the comments below where there is a link there to someone who caters for linux in Pakistan. http://ko.offroadpakistan.com/pakistan/2003_10/best_open_source_or_free_software.html I'm not sure whether this is RHEL or a Fedora type thing since its government related. http://www.iinix.com/ Thats the supplier to the Pakistan Government. Regards, Marc From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 15 01:51:39 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:51:39 +1000 Subject: CMCs Message-ID: <1126749099.3758.332.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> By now a bunch of you have been spammed with the request to be subscribed to a new/private list for Community Marketing Contacts. If you haven't, please do send me a nice little email about you wanting to be a CMC Remember, there's a meeting today, and I expect all/most-of-all of you CMCs to be present Kind regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 15 01:52:37 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:52:37 +1000 Subject: Meeting reminder Message-ID: <1126749157.3758.334.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Same time as usual, #fedora-mktg on irc.freenode.net THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 15, 15:00 UTC THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 15, 11:00 Eastern US THURSDAY SEPTEMBER 15, 08:00 Western US FRIDAY SEPTEMBER 16, 01:00 Melbourne (UTC+10) Agenda is on the schedule page (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/Schedule) as well as per my email/discussion that spawned since then -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 15 02:00:07 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:00:07 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: The name of Breezy+1] Message-ID: <1126749607.3758.341.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Ok, first off, let me congratulate Ubuntu on almost getting Breezy Badger out Next, I want you to pay close attention to the support - 3 years on the desktop, 5 years on the server. This is by the /community/ or even that Ubuntu Foundation thing which got pumped with a recent lot of cash Fedora is known to support to about Test1/2 of the next release, and Legacy then takes over until 3 fedora releases after. That gives roughly 2-2.5 years of updates/support, right, if we stuck to a hard on 6-month schedule? >From a marketing standpoint, what are your thoughts? Kind regards -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Mark Shuttleworth Subject: The name of Breezy+1 Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:05:01 +0100 Size: 3772 URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 04:41:27 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:11:27 +0530 Subject: FUDCon London 2005 : LWN Message-ID: <4328FB77.4040505@redhat.com> Hi http://lwn.net/Articles/150830/ regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 05:33:02 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 22:33:02 -0700 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <604aa7910509141759190acc27@mail.gmail.com> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910509141759190acc27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126762382.27149.46.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-09-14 at 20:59 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/14/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > > +1 to Jeff for your excellent knowledge of available documentation and > > for recruiting for relnotes beat writers. That's the stuff! > > Other than my..shall we say..defensive..use of the call for beat > writers as a subtle variant of "put up or shut up" is anyone else > actually pounding the streets for people.. pressing the flesh? bashing > heads? blackmailing? making grandiose and misleading promises? I'm working on blackmail and head-bashing from within Red Hat. Also, working on a few infrastructure details before making YAGeneral call for release notes and beat writers. Sub-project leaders need to be accountable and responsible for getting the content into the designated locations (see below). They can delegate the responsibility to someone in their project to be the beat writer. The FDP is taking this content, editing it, converting it into single- source XML, working with translation, packaging it into fedora-release, and posting it on the Web. > The beat writer stuff seems to be pretty reasonable sized chunks of > responsibility. Where exactly do we hang the virtual "help wanted" > sign to get as many eyeballs as possible looking over that last as > possible? I'm just about to make an announcement about this. That we need more than just some notes dropped into bugzilla, but actual ownership from the projects. We're going to open up content submissions to include the Wiki, with a more open editing rule (have to create an account but don't require EditGroup access.) Hopefully we'll see more raw chunks of content made available. We'd see input from testers who might not otherwise mess with the Wiki. > How much does a Google text ad go for? Cuz man.. how many fedora > meatheads are like me.. and are using gmail for all this list > traffic... can we actually find a way to get project help wanted > adverts into their gmail interface? Now that's a good idea. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Thu Sep 15 05:45:33 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:45:33 +0300 Subject: [Fwd: The name of Breezy+1] In-Reply-To: <1126749607.3758.341.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126749607.3758.341.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <43290A7D.1000602@nicubunu.ro> Colin Charles wrote: > Next, I want you to pay close attention to the support - 3 years on the > desktop, 5 years on the server. This is by the /community/ or even that > Ubuntu Foundation thing which got pumped with a recent lot of cash > > Fedora is known to support to about Test1/2 of the next release, and > Legacy then takes over until 3 fedora releases after. That gives roughly > 2-2.5 years of updates/support, right, if we stuck to a hard on 6-month > schedule? > >>From a marketing standpoint, what are your thoughts? Will they drop the 6 months release cycle after this release? Will keep the cycles but promote more the "stable" version? Will promote the following releases letting 6.04 into shadow? Or put in other way, will Ubuntu remain "the GNOME distro"? (hard to see these days an article about GNOME where Ubuntu is not mentioned) > From: > Mark Shuttleworth > > It's 6.04 that will be up against Windows Vista, so let's make it a > zinger and give folks a real choice. What version of Fedora will be up against Windows Vista? Or we will not have such a thing? (I guess it will be in the FC6 timeframe) -- nicu my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From nman64 at n-man.com Thu Sep 15 05:56:45 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 00:56:45 -0500 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <1126762382.27149.46.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910509141759190acc27@mail.gmail.com> <1126762382.27149.46.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <43290D1D.5040105@n-man.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: sortdown.gif Type: image/gif Size: 58 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From luya at jpopmail.com Thu Sep 15 07:38:51 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 23:38:51 -0800 Subject: Fedora-marketing-list Digest, Vol 15, Issue 13 Message-ID: <20050915073851.8A494203FE@ws5-1.us4.outblaze.com> > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:45:33 +0300 > From: Nicu Buculei > Subject: Re: [Fwd: The name of Breezy+1] > To: Discussions on expanding the Fedora user base > > Message-ID: <43290A7D.1000602 at nicubunu.ro> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > From: > > Mark Shuttleworth > > > > It's 6.04 that will be up against Windows Vista, so let's make it a > > zinger and give folks a real choice. > > What version of Fedora will be up against Windows Vista? Or we will not > have such a thing? (I guess it will be in the FC6 timeframe) > IMO, Windows Vista is all about special effects than a better demonstration of a well-coded system. There is a lot of discussion about lower performance of OpenGL inside Windows Vista. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/cgi_directory/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000001 One has to wonder what specification Vista will use to full render effects such as transparent windows and Avalon (very similar to Project Looking Glass aond Metisse). One Fedora will get the modular X.org, it will be interesting to see how it will be possible to generate interesting effect by only using OpenGL from software rendering. -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.jp.popstarmail.org From luya at jpopmail.com Thu Sep 15 09:50:44 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 01:50:44 -0800 Subject: [Fwd: The name of Breezy+1] Message-ID: <20050915095044.B4983CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> > Message: 15 > Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:45:33 +0300 > From: Nicu Buculei > Subject: Re: [Fwd: The name of Breezy+1] > To: Discussions on expanding the Fedora user base > > Message-ID: <43290A7D.1000602 at nicubunu.ro> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > From: > > Mark Shuttleworth > > > > It's 6.04 that will be up against Windows Vista, so let's make it a > > zinger and give folks a real choice. > > What version of Fedora will be up against Windows Vista? Or we will not > have such a thing? (I guess it will be in the FC6 timeframe) > IMO, Windows Vista is all about special effects than a better demonstration of a well-coded system. There is a lot of discussion about lower performance of OpenGL inside Windows Vista. http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boards/cgi_directory/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000001 One has to wonder what specification Vista will use to full render effects such as transparent windows and Avalon (very similar to Project Looking Glass aond Metisse). Once Fedora will get the modular X.org, it will be interesting to see how it will be possible to generate interesting effect by only using OpenGL from software rendering. -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.jp.popstarmail.org From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 14:04:57 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:04:57 -0400 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <43290D1D.5040105@n-man.com> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910509141759190acc27@mail.gmail.com> <1126762382.27149.46.camel@erato.phig.org> <43290D1D.5040105@n-man.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910509150704321a9a43@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Looks to be out of reach. day in and day out... yes... out of reach. But if we get our ducks in a row and we try to have a "call to arms" advertisement plan synced up with test1 of a release cycle for even a single day it might be worth the resource outlay...especially..if we can turn test release reviewers into our unsuspecting PR minions. So among all the complaints or fanboy activity in those reviews..they sneak in a useful blurb about the call to arms for tasks for that release cycle. So i don't have to personally follow up and double-dog-dare people to chip in. Can be have a blinding supernova of "help wanted" advertising on test1 release day? My first question is can we actually get our ducks in a row in time for test1 so that if we make a general call to arms for help for specific identified tasks? Basically making sure the process for each identified task is ready to grind them up and actually use them right away. It's not just the release note beat writer task that I'm thinking about here... though it serves as a good test case example. There are a number of interesting tasks that could use with a fresh infusion of blood every release cycle..with the expectation that you'll encounter a high turnover rate inside the taskteam simply because accomplishing the task has sucked all the life out of the unsuspecting participants and left them dry husks which over time will form a reef-like foundation on top of which a vibrant ecosystem of teeming Fedora project activity is supported. -jef From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 15 15:01:11 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 01:01:11 +1000 Subject: Meeting Minutes - 2005-09-08 In-Reply-To: <4320744F.80000@n-man.com> References: <4320744F.80000@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1126796471.3758.410.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 12:26 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Present: > > Christopher Aillon (caillon) > Greg DeKoenigsberg (gregdek) > Rahul Sundaram (mether) > Patrick Barnes (nman64) > Karsten Wade (quaid) > Bob Jensen (StillBob) With a minor change: Regrets: Colin Charles -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From stuart at elsn.org Thu Sep 15 15:25:02 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 16:25:02 +0100 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <604aa7910509150704321a9a43@mail.gmail.com> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910509141759190acc27@mail.gmail.com> <1126762382.27149.46.camel@erato.phig.org> <43290D1D.5040105@n-man.com> <604aa7910509150704321a9a43@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126797902.2882.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 10:04 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/15/05, Patrick Barnes wrote: > > Looks to be out of reach. > > day in and day out... yes... out of reach. > But if we get our ducks in a row and we try to have a "call to arms" > advertisement plan synced up with test1 of a release cycle for even a > single day it might be worth the resource outlay...especially..if we > can turn test release reviewers into our unsuspecting PR minions. So > among all the complaints or fanboy activity in those reviews..they > sneak in a useful blurb about the call to arms for tasks for that > release cycle. So i don't have to personally follow up and > double-dog-dare people to chip in. Can be have a blinding supernova of > "help wanted" advertising on test1 release day? > > My first question is can we actually get our ducks in a row in time > for test1 so that if we make a general call to arms for help for > specific identified tasks? Basically making sure the process for each > identified task is ready to grind them up and actually use them right > away. It's not just the release note beat writer task that I'm > thinking about here... though it serves as a good test case example. > There are a number of interesting tasks that could use with a fresh > infusion of blood every release cycle.. Fedora automatically gets press when the test releases go out, and will also get some when the Foundation is announced, so if there is a good set of pages on participating the URL could be promoted on the press releases. Other channels I could think of, which could be used at pretty much any time: - fedora-list - fedora-announce - FedoraNews Also possible, but time-sensitive: - Red Hat Magazine - print Linux magazines (I'm sure that at least one I've seen has a "Help Wanted" section for Open Source projects) - the release notes themselves (there was a help wanted sign on the FC4t1 notes) -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 15 16:01:17 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 02:01:17 +1000 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 Message-ID: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Present: Patrick Barnes (nman64) Rahul Sundaram (mether) Karsten Wade (quaid) Jon Fautley ([sasquatch]) Colin Charles (byte) Greg DeKoenigsberg (gregdek) Marc (StrikeForce) Tejas Dinkar (tejas) Bob Jensen Notes: * Mentors - There's a mailing list, art project with Diana is there, but the rest aren't responding. Rahul has responded. Note that there is NO duplication of information by creating new guides - its just revising existing materials. Marc to resend out more information bits about the list to developers, and there have been a small number of newbies that have signed up. Wiki page needs updating, people need to get on lists. * FUDCon Promotion - numbers (registrants) 50 at the moment (pending Alex), there has been publicity, sent to the list. Look at list archives for this - lwn, lxer, linuxtoday, newsforge. 2 staff volunteers also * SOP - http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/SpreadingNews has been integrated. It needs to be built on further, with possibly other inspiration as well. Rahul is done with it (thanks for the great job), others now need to contribute * CMC - list is setup, its private, there are people on it. Keep in mind focusing on our strengths and promoting that. This week is week of promotion * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can be fixed later (like Legacy or something) Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? * Fedora-derivatives: Rahul will post to list over the weekend, and Tejas has found a bunch of "dead" distros. Rahul is going to download everything he can get his hands on. c.f. Blag on LiveCd list for starters * Fedora Marketing Kit - saved for next week. Rahul did: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraOverview, with the idea to expand it to a list. It clearly needs more content, to link of to other pages. Patrick has been trying a new redesign, at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PatrickBarnes/Prototypes/FrontPage and the idea is to move the wiki to the frontpage eventually. Patrick will work with the designers for this (incl. Bob Jensen) * Legacy pages have been cleaned up at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legacy by Rahul, after talking to Jesse and folk on #fedora-devel. Rahul probably volunteering to own the content, infrastructure to fedoralegacy * Do we want a wiki as the main/front page? -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 16:06:16 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:06:16 -0400 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <1126797902.2882.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910509141759190acc27@mail.gmail.com> <1126762382.27149.46.camel@erato.phig.org> <43290D1D.5040105@n-man.com> <604aa7910509150704321a9a43@mail.gmail.com> <1126797902.2882.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa79105091509061f19fe81@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Stuart Ellis wrote: > - Red Hat Magazine > - print Linux magazines (I'm sure that at least one I've seen has a > "Help Wanted" section for Open Source projects) speaking of print magazines... other than the classifieds...how much does an actual ad cost? > - the release notes themselves (there was a help wanted sign on the > FC4t1 notes) Until the release notes include slick artwork.. or some sort of mind-numbing mesmerizing animation..its going to continue to be an under-read resource for first glance enticement... no matter how chockfull of useful information it actually is. Its useful documentation and thus I assume most people simply will not get around to reading it unless they actually run into a problem and need to refer to it. But yes of course, the help wanted call goes there to. Actually i would expect a more verbose description to be in the release notes which can be refered to from the more hit-and-run advertising efforts. -jef From tcallawa at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 16:16:34 2005 From: tcallawa at redhat.com (Tom 'spot' Callaway) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:16:34 -0500 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 02:01 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. > Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus > is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can > be fixed later (like Legacy or something) > > Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? I think the f is far too subtle. The shirt design in particular will confuse people. It needs to come with the name wherever possible. ~spot -- Tom "spot" Callaway: Red Hat Senior Sales Engineer || GPG ID: 93054260 Fedora Extras Steering Committee Member (RPM Standards and Practices) Aurora Linux Project Leader: http://auroralinux.org Lemurs, llamas, and sparcs, oh my! From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 16:18:48 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 21:48:48 +0530 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43299EE8.6000902@redhat.com> Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: >On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 02:01 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: >Co > > >> * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. >>Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus >>is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can >>be fixed later (like Legacy or something) >> >>Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? >> >> > >I think the f is far too subtle. The shirt design in particular will >confuse people. It needs to come with the name wherever possible. > >~spot > > Tie it up infinitely with the slogan "Infinite Freedom" would fix that? ;-) regards Rahul From stevelist at silverorange.com Thu Sep 15 16:22:57 2005 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:22:57 -0300 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <43299FE1.6010908@silverorange.com> Colin Charles wrote: > * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. > Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus > is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can > be fixed later (like Legacy or something) > > Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? This logo work is really well done. We should thank Matt Munoz and go with it! Cheers, Steven Garrity From ed at eh3.com Thu Sep 15 16:39:16 2005 From: ed at eh3.com (Ed Hill) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 12:39:16 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <43299FE1.6010908@silverorange.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <43299FE1.6010908@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1126802357.31679.202.camel@ernie> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 13:22 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > Colin Charles wrote: > > * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. > > Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus > > is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can > > be fixed later (like Legacy or something) > > > > Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? > > This logo work is really well done. We should thank Matt Munoz and go > with it! +1 ! And IMHO the shirt (and everything else) should say "Fedora" somewhere and in large print. The symbol is OK but the "Fedora" name needs to come with it basically everywhere since its new and people just won't understand the symbol by itself. Ed -- Edward H. Hill III, PhD office: MIT Dept. of EAPS; Rm 54-1424; 77 Massachusetts Ave. Cambridge, MA 02139-4307 emails: eh3 at mit.edu ed at eh3.com URLs: http://web.mit.edu/eh3/ http://eh3.com/ phone: 617-253-0098 fax: 617-253-4464 From mmunoz at capstrat.com Thu Sep 15 17:12:51 2005 From: mmunoz at capstrat.com (Matt Munoz) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:12:51 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126802357.31679.202.camel@ernie> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <43299FE1.6010908@silverorange.com> <1126802357.31679.202.camel@ernie> Message-ID: Perhaps at first we need to show both the wordmark and the symbol together, but down the road, I think the symbol can stand on its own two feet. Similar to the way the Shadowman symbol is used (without the Red Hat wordmark). Matt ...... Matthew Mu?oz | Capstrat | 919-882-1975 On Sep 15, 2005, at 12:39 PM, Ed Hill wrote: > On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 13:22 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > >> Colin Charles wrote: >> >>> * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/ >>> fedora/. >>> Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general >>> consensus >>> is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. >>> Color can >>> be fixed later (like Legacy or something) >>> >>> Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? >>> >> >> This logo work is really well done. We should thank Matt Munoz and go >> with it! >> > > +1 ! > > And IMHO the shirt (and everything else) should say "Fedora" somewhere > and in large print. The symbol is OK but the "Fedora" name needs to > come with it basically everywhere since its new and people just won't > understand the symbol by itself. > > Ed > > -- > Edward H. Hill III, PhD > office: MIT Dept. of EAPS; Rm 54-1424; 77 Massachusetts Ave. > Cambridge, MA 02139-4307 > emails: eh3 at mit.edu ed at eh3.com > URLs: http://web.mit.edu/eh3/ http://eh3.com/ > phone: 617-253-0098 > fax: 617-253-4464 > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 17:17:21 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:17:21 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > I think the f is far too subtle. The shirt design in particular will > confuse people. It needs to come with the name wherever possible. Would outlining the f make it "pop" out for you more? Or are we talking about playing with the color palette so there is more contrast? Yes, using the logo with the name everywhere you can will be key.. in the near term is going to be vital. Until you actually get immense quantifiable brand recognition the logo can't be used by itself.. it needs to be used to add punch to the name. Let's face it..we aren't Nike. You can get away with using just the logo on the corner of the desktop menu... but on any PR tools, the name needs to be used with the logo. -jef"To whom do i send the KK dougnuts in appreciation?"spaleta From mmunoz at capstrat.com Thu Sep 15 17:23:21 2005 From: mmunoz at capstrat.com (Matt Munoz) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:23:21 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> On Sep 15, 2005, at 1:17 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/15/05, Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > >> I think the f is far too subtle. The shirt design in particular will >> confuse people. It needs to come with the name wherever possible. >> > > Would outlining the f make it "pop" out for you more? Or are we > talking about playing with the color palette so there is more > contrast? > > Yes, using the logo with the name everywhere you can will be key.. in > the near term is going to be vital. Until you actually get immense > quantifiable brand recognition the logo can't be used by itself.. it > needs to be used to add punch to the name. Let's face it..we aren't > Nike. You can get away with using just the logo on the corner of the > desktop menu... but on any PR tools, the name needs to be used with > the logo. > > -jef"To whom do i send the KK dougnuts in appreciation?"spaleta > > I think we're talking about subtle color tweaks to up the contrast. Matt"i like sprinkles on my donuts"Mu?oz ...... Matthew Mu?oz | Capstrat | 919-882-1975 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paulds at bu.edu Thu Sep 15 17:24:39 2005 From: paulds at bu.edu (Paul Stauffer) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:24:39 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050915172439.GJ27471@prozac.horde.com> > > I think the f is far too subtle. The shirt design in particular will > > confuse people. It needs to come with the name wherever possible. This was my initial reaction as well. > Would outlining the f make it "pop" out for you more? Or are we Hm, yes, that might make the difference... > Yes, using the logo with the name everywhere you can will be key.. in the > near term is going to be vital. Until you actually get immense > quantifiable brand recognition the logo can't be used by itself.. it needs +1 BTW, I think the trademark as a whole (symbol + wordmark) looks excellent. And I like the look of the wordmark itself a lot; I think it really succeeds in conveying the intended feeling. -- Paul Stauffer Manager of Research Computing Computer Science Department Boston University From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 17:33:07 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:33:07 -0700 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <604aa79105091509061f19fe81@mail.gmail.com> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910509141759190acc27@mail.gmail.com> <1126762382.27149.46.camel@erato.phig.org> <43290D1D.5040105@n-man.com> <604aa7910509150704321a9a43@mail.gmail.com> <1126797902.2882.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091509061f19fe81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126805587.27149.53.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 12:06 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Until the release notes include slick artwork.. or some sort of > mind-numbing mesmerizing animation..its going to continue to be an > under-read resource for first glance enticement... no matter how > chockfull of useful information it actually is. We need to decide what goes above the fold for the release notes. Is it worth hacking on the XSL to get the ToC moved down a bit? We could then have really important stuff at the top: * A recruiting item * Pointer about ForbiddenItems * what else? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stuart at elsn.org Thu Sep 15 17:33:14 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:33:14 +0100 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <43299EE8.6000902@redhat.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43299EE8.6000902@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1126805594.2882.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 21:48 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: > > >On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 02:01 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > >Co > > > > > >> * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. > >>Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus > >>is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can > >>be fixed later (like Legacy or something) > >> > >>Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? > >> > >> > > > >I think the f is far too subtle. The shirt design in particular will > >confuse people. It needs to come with the name wherever possible. > > > >~spot > > > > > Tie it up infinitely with the slogan "Infinite Freedom" would fix that? ;-) I dare you to use that slogan in front of an OpenBSD developer :) More seriously, I think that making "free" or "open" the key word has potential issues, because although they are important they aren't distinctive attributes of Fedora - other groups have claims on them, and attach differing meanings. Arguably they have become buzzwords, outside of the communities involved. Three different well-known systems (one is not Linux-based): "a free operating system for your computer" "a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from open source software" "free, secure, and highly portable open source operating system" The idea of "doing the right thing" has come up recently, and perhaps that might be another start point - it encompasses licensing, technical aspects and community. http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2005-September/msg00045.html -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 17:33:26 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:33:26 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <20050915172439.GJ27471@prozac.horde.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <20050915172439.GJ27471@prozac.horde.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105091510333aa11cec@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Paul Stauffer wrote: > BTW, I think the trademark as a whole (symbol + wordmark) looks excellent. > And I like the look of the wordmark itself a lot; I think it really succeeds > in conveying the intended feeling. I really like http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_10.jpg as a model for the story were are trying to tell people when we talk about fedora. No technical mobojumbo... its emotive and its about as minimal a description as you can get. I'd actually like to reuse a variation of that symbol "equation" with the final trademark on the righthand side as an ad banner. -jef"And together they combine into Voltron..err Fedora!"spaleta From stuart at elsn.org Thu Sep 15 17:41:15 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 18:41:15 +0100 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <1126805587.27149.53.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910509141759190acc27@mail.gmail.com> <1126762382.27149.46.camel@erato.phig.org> <43290D1D.5040105@n-man.com> <604aa7910509150704321a9a43@mail.gmail.com> <1126797902.2882.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091509061f19fe81@mail.gmail.com> <1126805587.27149.53.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1126806075.2882.57.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 10:33 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 12:06 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > > Until the release notes include slick artwork.. or some sort of > > mind-numbing mesmerizing animation..its going to continue to be an > > under-read resource for first glance enticement... no matter how > > chockfull of useful information it actually is. > > We need to decide what goes above the fold for the release notes. Is it > worth hacking on the XSL to get the ToC moved down a bit? We could then > have really important stuff at the top: > > * A recruiting item > * Pointer about ForbiddenItems > * what else? What's New/Experimental/particularly requiring testing ? -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 17:41:42 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 23:11:42 +0530 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126805594.2882.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43299EE8.6000902@redhat.com> <1126805594.2882.55.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4329B256.9010805@redhat.com> Stuart Ellis wrote: >On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 21:48 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Tom 'spot' Callaway wrote: >> >> >> >>>On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 02:01 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: >>>Co >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>* Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. >>>>Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus >>>>is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can >>>>be fixed later (like Legacy or something) >>>> >>>>Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>I think the f is far too subtle. The shirt design in particular will >>>confuse people. It needs to come with the name wherever possible. >>> >>>~spot >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Tie it up infinitely with the slogan "Infinite Freedom" would fix that? ;-) >> >> > >I dare you to use that slogan in front of an OpenBSD developer :) > >More seriously, I think that making "free" or "open" the key word has >potential issues, because although they are important they aren't >distinctive attributes of Fedora - other groups have claims on them, and >attach differing meanings. Arguably they have become buzzwords, outside >of the communities involved. > >Three different well-known systems (one is not Linux-based): > >"a free operating system for your computer" > >"a complete, general purpose operating system exclusively from open >source software" > >"free, secure, and highly portable open source operating system" > >The idea of "doing the right thing" has come up recently, and perhaps >that might be another start point - it encompasses licensing, technical >aspects and community. > >http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2005-September/msg00045.html > Yes. I used that as a slogan in the overview page and it has now been copied over to the front page too http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraOverview http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ regards Rahul From tfox at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 17:50:56 2005 From: tfox at redhat.com (Tammy Fox) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:50:56 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <604aa79105091510333aa11cec@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <20050915172439.GJ27471@prozac.horde.com> <604aa79105091510333aa11cec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126806657.5826.51.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 13:33 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/15/05, Paul Stauffer wrote: > > BTW, I think the trademark as a whole (symbol + wordmark) looks excellent. > > And I like the look of the wordmark itself a lot; I think it really succeeds > > in conveying the intended feeling. > > I really like http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_10.jpg > as a model for the story were are trying to tell people when we talk > about fedora. > No technical mobojumbo... its emotive and its about as minimal a > description as you can get. > I'd actually like to reuse a variation of that symbol "equation" with > the final trademark on the righthand side as an ad banner. > Agreed. I love the simplicity of this explanation. It would also look good on a t-shirt. ;-) > -jef"And together they combine into Voltron..err Fedora!"spaleta > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From pjones at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 17:59:39 2005 From: pjones at redhat.com (Peter Jones) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:59:39 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 02:01 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. > Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus > is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can > be fixed later (like Legacy or something) > > Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? Somebody suggested I should comment on the list, so here goes ;) On the whole, I like the "infinite freedom" concept, and I like the f-infinity teardrop logo. It also makes a great icon. I don't like the 'f' in the wordmark; it seems that it should be more similar to the logo. I also don't like the 'a'; it doesn't really resemble the logo (as the intent is noted to be), and the wide circular style makes the wordmark feel asymetric. But that's just nit-picking. The real feedback I have is regarding the logo placement with respect to the text. There's a big field of heavy, dark color in the logo, and placing it caddy-corner to the right the text creates a lot of negative space around it. The combination of the two draws the eye away from the text very, very strongly. This is obviously why the subproject logos all have the text on the right side rather than the left, but it's still very, very strongly weighted to the top and right. Also, it kindof looks like a cartoon thought-balloon with that placement. -- Peter From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 17:56:07 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:56:07 -0400 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <1126805587.27149.53.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910509141759190acc27@mail.gmail.com> <1126762382.27149.46.camel@erato.phig.org> <43290D1D.5040105@n-man.com> <604aa7910509150704321a9a43@mail.gmail.com> <1126797902.2882.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091509061f19fe81@mail.gmail.com> <1126805587.27149.53.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <604aa79105091510561a443c82@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > We need to decide what goes above the fold for the release notes. Is it > worth hacking on the XSL to get the ToC moved down a bit? We could then > have really important stuff at the top: Maybe you missed my point. I do not subscribe to the theory that "the really important" stuff is garunteed to pull people in on a first glance. If its meant to be a reference document.. then ToC comes first. If its meant to be a grab your attention document...then you'll add the appropriate eye-catching cleverness to sucker punch the audience into reading the ToC as required. Perhaps the National Inquirer approach.. "Elvis's alien love-child wants YOU to help with Fedora!" -jef From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 18:02:13 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Peter Jones wrote: > Also, it kindof looks like a cartoon thought-balloon with that > placement. Yes, it does. That was exactly the point, aiui. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From mmunoz at capstrat.com Thu Sep 15 18:10:36 2005 From: mmunoz at capstrat.com (Matt Munoz) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:10:36 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sep 15, 2005, at 1:59 PM, Peter Jones wrote: > On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 02:01 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > >> * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/ >> fedora/. >> Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general >> consensus >> is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. >> Color can >> be fixed later (like Legacy or something) >> >> Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? >> > > Somebody suggested I should comment on the list, so here goes ;) > > On the whole, I like the "infinite freedom" concept, and I like the > f-infinity teardrop logo. It also makes a great icon. > > I don't like the 'f' in the wordmark; it seems that it should be more > similar to the logo. I also don't like the 'a'; it doesn't really > resemble the logo (as the intent is noted to be), and the wide > circular > style makes the wordmark feel asymetric. But that's just nit-picking. > > The real feedback I have is regarding the logo placement with > respect to > the text. There's a big field of heavy, dark color in the logo, and > placing it caddy-corner to the right the text creates a lot of > negative > space around it. The combination of the two draws the eye away > from the > text very, very strongly. > I see what you're saying, but I look at it differently. I think of the dark shape as a visual device to pull your eye through reading the word fedora. > This is obviously why the subproject logos all have the text on the > right side rather than the left, but it's still very, very strongly > weighted to the top and right. > > Also, it kindof looks like a cartoon thought-balloon with that > placement. Thought-balloon, voice bubble, that's what we were going for. > > -- > Peter > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > ...... Matthew Mu?oz | Capstrat | 919-882-1975 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pjones at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 18:18:36 2005 From: pjones at redhat.com (Peter Jones) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:18:36 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1126808317.9560.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 14:02 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Peter Jones wrote: > > > Also, it kindof looks like a cartoon thought-balloon with that > > placement. > > Yes, it does. That was exactly the point, aiui. :) Well, it's obviously the reasoning behind the shape, and that's great. At the same time, "f" and "cockeyed infinity" are both very weird things for the word "fedora" to be saying. I like the shape, and I like where it comes from, but it's really odd to actually _use_ it that way. -- Peter From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 18:16:09 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:16:09 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <604aa79105091511162f4aee07@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Peter Jones wrote: > > > Also, it kindof looks like a cartoon thought-balloon with that > > placement. > > Yes, it does. That was exactly the point, aiui. :) careful... thought balloons.. and speech balloons are actually distinct. I thought the point was to be indicative of voice or speech...not "inner monologue" It would feel more distinctly like a speech balloon to me if there was a hint of the more tradition speech balloon curving tail at the lower left corner instead of the hard right angle. http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_09.jpg As I stare at that shape on its own.. i keep thinking ive seen that shape used in another context....in software somewhere... but i can't put my finger on it. -jef From stuart at elsn.org Thu Sep 15 18:22:48 2005 From: stuart at elsn.org (Stuart Ellis) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 19:22:48 +0100 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1126808568.2882.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 13:59 -0400, Peter Jones wrote: > On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 02:01 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > > > * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. > > Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus > > is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can > > be fixed later (like Legacy or something) > > > > Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? > > Somebody suggested I should comment on the list, so here goes ;) > > On the whole, I like the "infinite freedom" concept, and I like the > f-infinity teardrop logo. It also makes a great icon. I like the icon, but I'm not convinced that the icon or the concept quite fit. I associate Fedora more with innovation, forethought, design and care, rather than vastness (in the amount of software, or flexibility), or specifically with "freedom". There is already a "Universal Operating System" (with a nice swirl logo and a well-known emphasis on Freedom), and ultimate flexibility would perhaps be a Gentoo motto. Again, the icon is good, but it doesn't really say "Fedora" to me at all... -- Stuart Ellis stuart at elsn.org Fedora Documentation Project: http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ GPG key ID: 7098ABEA GPG key fingerprint: 68B0 E291 FB19 C845 E60E 9569 292E E365 7098 ABEA -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Thu Sep 15 18:37:51 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 11:37:51 -0700 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <1126809471.2815.87.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 02:01 +1000, Colin Charles wrote: > * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. > Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus > is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can > be fixed later (like Legacy or something) Yeah, I'd like the Legacy color to match the green we use at http://www.fedoralegacy.org -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 18:48:44 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:48:44 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050915114827afac0@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Matt Munoz wrote: > I think we're talking about subtle color tweaks to up the contrast. Did you spin up any black and white or greyscale versions of the logo+wordmark? Just to see how it looks when forced through a photocopier.. or how its going to look when people need to come up with a high contrast logo? -jef From mmunoz at capstrat.com Thu Sep 15 18:56:53 2005 From: mmunoz at capstrat.com (Matt Munoz) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:56:53 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <604aa791050915114827afac0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> <604aa791050915114827afac0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 15, 2005, at 2:48 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/15/05, Matt Munoz wrote: > >> I think we're talking about subtle color tweaks to up the contrast. >> > > Did you spin up any black and white or greyscale versions of the > logo+wordmark? Just to see how it looks when forced through a > photocopier.. or how its going to look when people need to come up > with a high contrast logo? > > -jef > ??? Yes, I do have one http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_10b.jpg I also worked it into the presentation. m ...... Matthew Mu?oz | Capstrat | 919-882-1975 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Thu Sep 15 20:58:05 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 13:58:05 -0700 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <604aa79105091511162f4aee07@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091511162f4aee07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126817885.22265.37.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 14:16 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/15/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > On Thu, 15 Sep 2005, Peter Jones wrote: > > > > > Also, it kindof looks like a cartoon thought-balloon with that > > > placement. > > > > Yes, it does. That was exactly the point, aiui. :) > > careful... thought balloons.. and speech balloons are actually > distinct. I thought the point was to be indicative of voice or > speech...not "inner monologue" > > It would feel more distinctly like a speech balloon to me if there was > a hint of the more tradition speech balloon curving tail at the lower > left corner instead of the hard right angle. > http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_09.jpg > ..or if it was stretched a little more horizontally. > As I stare at that shape on its own.. i keep thinking ive seen that > shape used in another context....in software somewhere... but i can't > put my finger on it. Real has a blue speech bubble logo. We aren't treading too close to that, are we? I think there's also some logo with an orange speech bubble that is even closer in shape but I can't quite put my finger one that one either.... -Toshio P.S. This logo looks nice and could look even nicer with outlining and other tweaks but I don't think of Fedora when I see it or hear the slogan. P.P.S. The look of the logo reminds me of one of those twisty puzzle toys made of linked colored plastic elbows... Kinda like this: http://www.veghead.com/reptiles/tanglesnake.jpg -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From pjones at redhat.com Thu Sep 15 21:19:23 2005 From: pjones at redhat.com (Peter Jones) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 17:19:23 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126817885.22265.37.camel@localhost> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091511162f4aee07@mail.gmail.com> <1126817885.22265.37.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <1126819163.9560.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 13:58 -0700, Toshio Kuratomi wrote: > I think there's also some logo with an orange speech bubble that is even > closer in shape but I can't quite put my finger one that one either.... The "live bookmark" logo in firefox's status bar has a somewhat similar feel because of its curved lines, and it's likely you see it every day, but rarely look at it. > P.S. This logo looks nice and could look even nicer with outlining and > other tweaks but I don't think of Fedora when I see it or hear the > slogan. A good slogan should work the other way -- it should be something we aspire to, and having it as a slogan helps us maintain focus. I'm not sure "infinite freedom" works toward that, but my impression is that we should be thinking more about the logo and wordmark in this discussion. As for the icon, that *becomes* something you think of Fedora upon seeing. It won't start that way, no matter how good or bad it is. -- Peter From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Sep 15 21:34:48 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 17:34:48 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> <604aa791050915114827afac0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050915143454b2899d@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Matt Munoz wrote: > Yes, I do have one > http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_10b.jpg > > I also worked it into the presentation. Sorry I missed the original link.. I will say the contrast in the greyscale makes the f stand out more than the current colorized version with the light blue secondary color. The color you have for the legacy variation mockups seems to provide the best contrast among the different colors in http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_14.jpg to me. Unfortunately legacy is also the only variation that has an established history with regard to color so if you keep that color you'll need to use it for another subproject. Can you spin up a logo using the shade of green from fedoralegacy.org colorscheme? -jef"but since i dont exactly have a color calibrated monitor, take this with a truck load of salt"spaleta From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Thu Sep 15 22:48:29 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 15:48:29 -0700 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126819163.9560.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126807180.9560.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091511162f4aee07@mail.gmail.com> <1126817885.22265.37.camel@localhost> <1126819163.9560.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1126824509.22265.51.camel@localhost> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 17:19 -0400, Peter Jones wrote: > > P.S. This logo looks nice and could look even nicer with outlining and > > other tweaks but I don't think of Fedora when I see it or hear the > > slogan. > > A good slogan should work the other way -- it should be something we > aspire to, and having it as a slogan helps us maintain focus. I'm not > sure "infinite freedom" works toward that, but my impression is that we > should be thinking more about the logo and wordmark in this discussion. > True -- but does the infinity sign have any meaning to Fedora without that slogan? OTOH, you sould argue that few logos represent something about the product their marketing. The analysis of how the logo came to be may have thrown me into the wrong mode of thinking. FWIW, I experimented with the logo a bit to see what some minor tweaking might yield: 1) I stretched the speech bubble so it looked more like a speech bubble. 2) I turned the infinity sign more so it looked more like an infinity; hopefully without compromising the "f". 3) In order to make the "f" stand out more, I experimented with outlines and size. In the attached rendition, the "f" has been shrunk a few pixels all around and more space inserted between the bar of the "f" and the infinity sign's cross bar. I'm not a graphic designer but perhaps some of this is a good idea? -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: fedoraLogo.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12460 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Sep 16 00:14:02 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 08:14:02 +0800 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <43299FE1.6010908@silverorange.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <43299FE1.6010908@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <432A0E4A.3090707@smlintl.com.au> Steven Garrity wrote: > Colin Charles wrote: > >> * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. >> Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus >> is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can >> be fixed later (like Legacy or something) >> >> Is the 'f' too subtle? Do we need a name? > > > This logo work is really well done. We should thank Matt Munoz and go > with it! > +1 for that idea. Although I do agree that combining the logo and the words are brilliant. :) Damn good work. Regards, Marc From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 02:43:05 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:43:05 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <556f970a0509151943130cec61@mail.gmail.com> > * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. > Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus > is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can > be fixed later (like Legacy or something) This is so good, it made me go all squooshy inside. That may have been the spicy chicken talking, but the logo is still good. --jeremy From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Sep 16 06:02:04 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 09:02:04 +0300 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> Colin Charles wrote: > > * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. > Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus > is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. Color can > be fixed later (like Legacy or something) Is, by any chance, the font used for the wordmark a free one? So we can freely make our derivative materials (think wallpapers, CD covers etc.) If not (and I suspect this to be the case), what is the name of the font used, so we can get it in our own ways? -- nicu my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br Fri Sep 16 06:07:08 2005 From: rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br (Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:07:08 -0300 Subject: FEDORA IN BRAZIL In-Reply-To: <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <432A610C.4030805@sagraluzzatto.com.br> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hello! For bigger spreading and interaction of Brazilian Fedora Core users, I suggest the creation of a list of users of the Pt-br Language. I can moderate it in case that they do not have somebody for this task. I work in the translation project english/portuguese-br - -- +================================================+ RODRIGO PADULA DE OLIVEIRA (o- BACHAREL EM SISTEMAS DE INFORMA??O //\ FACULDADE METODISTA GRANBERY - FMG V_/_ PostgreSQL - PHP - Linux +================================================+ Membro Fundador do Gunix Linux http://www.gunix.com.br -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDKmEM8arYxsJpZ0URAobkAKDVZWB5CYX5Aru6i1hHvviqcX1r3QCcDv0/ v+QUGetZ9S3XacTpQ8ob/sE= =0x32 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mmunoz at capstrat.com Fri Sep 16 14:44:01 2005 From: mmunoz at capstrat.com (Matt Munoz) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:44:01 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> On Sep 16, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote: > Colin Charles wrote: > >> * Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/ >> fedora/. >> Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general >> consensus >> is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. >> Color can >> be fixed later (like Legacy or something) >> > > Is, by any chance, the font used for the wordmark a free one? So we > can freely make our derivative materials (think wallpapers, CD > covers etc.) > If not (and I suspect this to be the case), what is the name of the > font used, so we can get it in our own ways? > ??? You're right, the font used for the wordmark is not a free one. Until the logo is approved, I'd rather not go into details about the font... ??? > -- > nicu > my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats > Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > ...... Matthew Mu?oz | Capstrat | 919-882-1975 From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Fri Sep 16 17:35:53 2005 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:35:53 +0000 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> Message-ID: <9fb23eef05091610356b14f7c1@mail.gmail.com> I thought of something that may make the f more obvious. Rather than an outline, I though an 'inline' might look a bit better. Anyway, here is my modification: http://www.geocities.com/tejas_dinkar/FedoraLogo.png It is a quick job with kpaint, so it is a bit boxish inside. It needs to be redone. Also, if we write In 'f' inite Freedom, replacing the f again with the logo, it may help people understand the meaning of the symbol Just my $0.02 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmunoz at capstrat.com Fri Sep 16 18:40:37 2005 From: mmunoz at capstrat.com (Matt Munoz) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:40:37 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <604aa791050915143454b2899d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> <604aa791050915114827afac0@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050915143454b2899d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <03B1FBB3-6661-4401-B6DA-D9899B9FEDEE@capstrat.com> On Sep 15, 2005, at 5:34 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/15/05, Matt Munoz wrote: > >> Yes, I do have one >> http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_10b.jpg >> >> I also worked it into the presentation. >> > > Sorry I missed the original link.. I will say the contrast in the > greyscale makes the f stand out more than the current colorized > version with the light blue secondary color. > The color you have for > the legacy variation mockups seems to provide the best contrast among > the different colors in > http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_14.jpg to me. > Unfortunately legacy is also the only variation that has an > established history with regard to color so if you keep that color > you'll need to use it for another subproject. Can you spin up a logo > using the shade of green from fedoralegacy.org colorscheme? > ??? I've added the mark with the proper green to the presentation under "Additions" (at the bottom). Here's the direct link: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_20.jpg > -jef"but since i dont exactly have a color calibrated monitor, take > this with a truck load of salt"spaleta > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 16 19:12:01 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:12:01 -0700 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> Message-ID: <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 10:44 -0400, Matt Munoz wrote: > On Sep 16, 2005, at 2:02 AM, Nicu Buculei wrote: > > > > Is, by any chance, the font used for the wordmark a free one? So we > > can freely make our derivative materials (think wallpapers, CD > > covers etc.) > > If not (and I suspect this to be the case), what is the name of the > > font used, so we can get it in our own ways? > > > ??? > You're right, the font used for the wordmark is not a free one. Until > the logo is approved, I'd rather not go into details about the font... I know the world of free/open source fonts is not that big, but is there anything we can do about this? It seems anathema to me to have our logo about infinite freedom be made with a non-free font. Can we pay someone to create a new font and free it? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jkeating at j2solutions.net Fri Sep 16 19:54:11 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:54:11 -0700 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <03B1FBB3-6661-4401-B6DA-D9899B9FEDEE@capstrat.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> <604aa791050915114827afac0@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050915143454b2899d@mail.gmail.com> <03B1FBB3-6661-4401-B6DA-D9899B9FEDEE@capstrat.com> Message-ID: <1126900451.2815.109.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 14:40 -0400, Matt Munoz wrote: > I've added the mark with the proper green to the presentation under > "Additions" (at the bottom). Here's the direct link: > http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_20.jpg Looks good. ON top, why is Fedora capitalized but not Legacy, especially when below fedora isn't capitalized? Is there a formula as to when [Ff]edora will be capitalized, and also the subproject attached name? -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From jkeating at j2solutions.net Fri Sep 16 19:55:01 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 12:55:01 -0700 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 12:12 -0700, Karsten Wade wrote: > It seems anathema to me to have our logo about infinite freedom be made > with a non-free font. > Yeah, using a non-free font seems like a no-go for me. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From stevelist at silverorange.com Fri Sep 16 20:03:19 2005 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:03:19 -0300 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > Yeah, using a non-free font seems like a no-go for me. While a free font would obviously be ideal, there just aren't many good ones (yet?). Once the logo is created, and you've got a vector version of the logo/wordmark (with the font converted to shapes), you can have a completely free SVG logo with no royalties due or limitations from the originating font. That seems fine to me. Steven Garrity From mmunoz at capstrat.com Fri Sep 16 20:17:01 2005 From: mmunoz at capstrat.com (Matt Munoz) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:17:01 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126900451.2815.109.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> <604aa791050915114827afac0@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050915143454b2899d@mail.gmail.com> <03B1FBB3-6661-4401-B6DA-D9899B9FEDEE@capstrat.com> <1126900451.2815.109.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: On Sep 16, 2005, at 3:54 PM, Jesse Keating wrote: > On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 14:40 -0400, Matt Munoz wrote: > >> I've added the mark with the proper green to the presentation under >> "Additions" (at the bottom). Here's the direct link: >> http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_20.jpg >> > > Looks good. ON top, why is Fedora capitalized but not Legacy, > especially when below fedora isn't capitalized? Is there a formula as > to when [Ff]edora will be capitalized, and also the subproject > attached > name? > ??? That was a mistake on my part, I've capitalized Legacy on top and threw a new jpg up there. > -- > Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) > Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) > GPG Public Key > (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) > > Was I helpful? Let others know: > http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > ??? Matthew Mu?oz | Capstrat | 919-882-1975 From jkeating at j2solutions.net Fri Sep 16 20:27:18 2005 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 13:27:18 -0700 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 17:03 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > Once the logo is created, and you've got a vector version of the > logo/wordmark (with the font converted to shapes), you can have a > completely free SVG logo with no royalties due or limitations from the > originating font. > > That seems fine to me. > And how does one recreate it using FOSS? Or better yet, using only what comes with Fedora? Self serving is a good thing here. -- Jesse Keating RHCE (http://geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (http://www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (http://geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) Was I helpful? Let others know: http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating From stevelist at silverorange.com Fri Sep 16 20:46:33 2005 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 17:46:33 -0300 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> Message-ID: <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> Jesse Keating wrote: > And how does one recreate it using FOSS? Or better yet, using only what > comes with Fedora? Self serving is a good thing here. I'm not totally in disagreement here - free is better. However, why do you need to recreate it? You can't recreate a photograph. That said, you can do everything else in the stack (Inkscape/Gimp, etc.) with foss. If it really is a sticking point (which I don't think it should be), the symbol can still stand on it's own with another font. Steven Garrity From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 16 21:53:01 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 14:53:01 -0700 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <1126907581.6258.55.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 17:03 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > Jesse Keating wrote: > > Yeah, using a non-free font seems like a no-go for me. > > While a free font would obviously be ideal, there just aren't many good > ones (yet?). Right, and there won't be unless people make them. Seems like Fedora Font Project might be a good idea. :) I'm sure there are good font designers interested in freeing some fonts. > Once the logo is created, and you've got a vector version of the > logo/wordmark (with the font converted to shapes), you can have a > completely free SVG logo with no royalties due or limitations from the > originating font. This is interesting. There is a very gray line when you deal with freedom and content. Does the presentation layer count? Only if you include it, some say. Legally you may be correct, IANAL, yet you speak with authority as if from experience. But I think there is a principal at stake and I wonder if it applies. At what point do non-free resources leak over into the free side? For example, using a non-free OS to produce FLOSS content is deemed a non-leak. With a font, there is a visual reminder of the non-freeness. I think it leaks over enough that I want us to consider applying resources to provide an acceptable free alternative that we can use instead. Sorry, Matt. Welcome to debates about freedom. ;-) - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 16 22:00:42 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:00:42 -0700 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126806657.5826.51.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <20050915172439.GJ27471@prozac.horde.com> <604aa79105091510333aa11cec@mail.gmail.com> <1126806657.5826.51.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1126908043.6258.60.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 13:50 -0400, Tammy Fox wrote: > On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 13:33 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On 9/15/05, Paul Stauffer wrote: > > > BTW, I think the trademark as a whole (symbol + wordmark) looks excellent. > > > And I like the look of the wordmark itself a lot; I think it really succeeds > > > in conveying the intended feeling. > > > > I really like http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_10.jpg > > as a model for the story were are trying to tell people when we talk > > about fedora. > > No technical mobojumbo... its emotive and its about as minimal a > > description as you can get. > > I'd actually like to reuse a variation of that symbol "equation" with > > the final trademark on the righthand side as an ad banner. > > > > Agreed. I love the simplicity of this explanation. It would also look > good on a t-shirt. ;-) Can we demo such a banner via Red Hat Magazine? We'll obviously need a good page to land on when people click-through. Such a banner run via RH Mag needs to be the end-result of a campaign that we put together here. http://fedoraproject.org/infiniteFreedom/ ? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 16 22:07:12 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:07:12 -0700 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <604aa791050915143454b2899d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> <604aa791050915114827afac0@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050915143454b2899d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126908432.6258.65.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 17:34 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > if you keep that color > you'll need to use it for another subproject. The Documentation Project might like to take that color, seeing as we are otherwise unrepresented, and it's kind of pretty. However, we might want to pause and see what emotions are attached to those colors and see that the colors fit. Or is that too touchy-feely for email? http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_14.jpg I like the red of "core4" for Core. Having "project" and "foundation" the same color makes sense, they are nearly synonymous. Extras will need a new color, or it will clash with Legacy green. The magenta might do best for Extras, as it's a "variation" on the red. Sort-of within the same visual palette. What other colors do we have? What happens when we "run out" of colors? Should we have some scheme for picking colors within palettes? - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 16 22:20:19 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 15:20:19 -0700 Subject: Fedora Core 4 review: Educated new village boy! In-Reply-To: <604aa79105091510561a443c82@mail.gmail.com> References: <4325E5CD.3030709@redhat.com> <604aa7910509121922258ad9b4@mail.gmail.com> <1126744760.27149.10.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa7910509141759190acc27@mail.gmail.com> <1126762382.27149.46.camel@erato.phig.org> <43290D1D.5040105@n-man.com> <604aa7910509150704321a9a43@mail.gmail.com> <1126797902.2882.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091509061f19fe81@mail.gmail.com> <1126805587.27149.53.camel@erato.phig.org> <604aa79105091510561a443c82@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1126909219.6258.72.camel@erato.phig.org> On Thu, 2005-09-15 at 13:56 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/15/05, Karsten Wade wrote: > > We need to decide what goes above the fold for the release notes. Is it > > worth hacking on the XSL to get the ToC moved down a bit? We could then > > have really important stuff at the top: > > Maybe you missed my point. I do not subscribe to the theory that "the > really important" stuff is garunteed to pull people in on a first > glance. If its meant to be a reference document.. then ToC comes > first. If its meant to be a grab your attention document...then > you'll add the appropriate eye-catching cleverness to sucker punch the > audience into reading the ToC as required. Perhaps the National > Inquirer approach.. "Elvis's alien love-child wants YOU to help with > Fedora!" At this point, not having the first thing they see be the legal boilerplate is a major victory. I understand where you are coming from, and sure, we can't get everyone's attention without a TV commercial. But a nice list of bullets that address very common problems or introduce cool stuff, that's just plainly much better than what we've had. Something like this at the top of the page: http://fedora.redhat.com/docs/release-notes/fc4/errata/#sn-splash It needs to be reworked to bring a list of items to the top. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 16 23:21:23 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:21:23 -0700 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <1126233889.2288.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126206664.7419.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1126233889.2288.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1126912883.6258.75.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-09-09 at 10:44 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > I mean wouldn't it be great to create a mini-movie howto of for example > how to install a new graphics card and look we created this compressed > video using oss software? The Documentation Project is 100% behind this idea. We just don't have the volunteers doing it ... yet. Anyone who wants to do these, we'll provide the framework for distributing the content. Oh, yeah. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From kwade at redhat.com Fri Sep 16 23:34:19 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 16:34:19 -0700 Subject: The big What-Why-How In-Reply-To: <1126236704.2288.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <7f617d270509080421d606672@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908055449302dfe@mail.gmail.com> <1126205024.2934.52.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081214f8732d3@mail.gmail.com> <1126213584.2934.151.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa7910509081447539adcc0@mail.gmail.com> <7f1eacdd05090817194f02f6b5@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050908174329933967@mail.gmail.com> <1126236704.2288.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1126913660.6258.82.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-09-09 at 11:31 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > So we need to specify who are we > targeting. If we are targeting new users to linux then we need to make > sure that every amount of information that they would need they have > access to. If we are targeting more experienced users they would need > the information in a different way. Developers well they need > development information. > > I suppose it boils down to who is our target market in specifics. > Demographics, pschographics, locations and purely from a marketing point > of view we have to answer those questions first then we can create the > information to help those users. This is a two-way street. We honestly have never 'targeted' new-to- Linux and the Linux-curious, but they found us. In the absence of support, they formed their own support. Now we come along and consider if we are going to support those areas. Is this a community distro or not? Are end-users of any flavor part of the community? We now have the job of marketing to all of these levels: * Newbies * Power newbies * Linux experienced * Developers That's just the way it is. Look what happened to us in the FDP when we mandated soup-to-nuts toolchains? People who didn't want to use those tools started using other tools. It's our job to embrace that direction and help make it part of the overall experience. So, the same things come to the developers. Some developers, somewhere, have to be interested in a smoother end-user experience and need to solve these problems. Perhaps the make-your-own-Fedora-based-distro (MYOFBD?) tools are a good way to go. Then, for example, LTSP can design their own Fedora distro that they are willing to define updates for so their end-users are not overwhelmed. Better example -- grow an Ubunto-like project from *within* Fedora. Let those who think they know what such a distro would look like, build and support it. They can base it on Core and filter the updates to some sane subset that Mom, Pop, and Johnny can all love. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 00:01:52 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2005 20:01:52 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <03B1FBB3-6661-4401-B6DA-D9899B9FEDEE@capstrat.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126800994.6762.42.camel@localhost.localdomain> <604aa79105091510175a7d19a0@mail.gmail.com> <7A4D2DBA-24EC-46FC-BA7E-C5896E98545B@capstrat.com> <604aa791050915114827afac0@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050915143454b2899d@mail.gmail.com> <03B1FBB3-6661-4401-B6DA-D9899B9FEDEE@capstrat.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105091617017af404a4@mail.gmail.com> On 9/16/05, Matt Munoz wrote: > I've added the mark with the proper green to the presentation under > "Additions" (at the bottom). Here's the direct link: > http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/fedoraLogo_20.jpg Oh yeah.. that makes for a good contrast. The "inline" modification that Tejas Dinkar mocked up might be worth looking at as well to enhance contrast across any secondary color. -jef From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Sat Sep 17 02:07:07 2005 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 02:07:07 +0000 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <9fb23eef05091619071f89601@mail.gmail.com> On 9/15/05, Colin Charles wrote: > > * Fedora-derivatives: Rahul will post to list over the weekend, and > Tejas has found a bunch of "dead" distros. Rahul is going to download > everything he can get his hands on. c.f. Blag on LiveCd list for > starters > Not just that, the plot thickens. Distro Watch groups RedHat based Distros and Fedora Based Distros together. This leads to two things: 1) Someone should contact distro watch, and tell them to stop grouping it together 2) Many of the Distros there are RedHat based, and are not related to Fedora at all. And the websites of some distros do not mention if they are based on RH or FC, such as : http://www.asianux.com/ Do I include such Distros in the compilation? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Sep 17 06:05:37 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 11:35:37 +0530 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <9fb23eef05091619071f89601@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <9fb23eef05091619071f89601@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <432BB231.2030904@redhat.com> Tejas Dinkar wrote: > On 9/15/05, *Colin Charles* > wrote: > > * Fedora-derivatives: Rahul will post to list over the weekend, and > Tejas has found a bunch of "dead" distros. Rahul is going to download > everything he can get his hands on. c.f. Blag on LiveCd list for > starters > > > Not just that, the plot thickens. > > Distro Watch groups RedHat based Distros and Fedora Based Distros > together. This leads to two things: > > 1) Someone should contact distro watch, and tell them to stop grouping > it together > 2) Many of the Distros there are RedHat based, and are not related to > Fedora at all. Considering that RHEL itself is based on Fedora, grouping them together is just fine IMO. Getting a list of the distributions in the second category would be helpful. Collect all the information in the wiki and we will launch it off from there regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Sep 17 06:56:26 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 12:26:26 +0530 Subject: Why Linux needs a mentor program Message-ID: <432BBE1A.5050106@redhat.com> Hi It was interesting to read your article on http://business.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/09/13/1816200&tid=35. It was particularly relevant to me since Fedora very recently started a mentoring program[1] to get users and developers to participate and get involved in Fedora is a better way. While its not a entirely new idea or effort its good to see we set ourselves in the right direction. The amount of involvement required to take it to Linux on the whole is enormous. I believe we already do that in a modular fashion in the form of various help sites like http://linuxquestions.org for users or http://kernelnewbies.org for developers. A central place to list and combine all these efforts might work better rather doing it from scratch regards Rahul http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors From nman64 at n-man.com Sat Sep 17 07:33:31 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 02:33:31 -0500 Subject: Why Linux needs a mentor program In-Reply-To: <432BBE1A.5050106@redhat.com> References: <432BBE1A.5050106@redhat.com> Message-ID: <432BC6CB.1010009@n-man.com> Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > It was interesting to read your article on > http://business.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/09/13/1816200&tid=35. > It was particularly relevant to me since Fedora very recently started > a mentoring program[1] to get users and developers to participate and > get involved in Fedora is a better way. While its not a entirely new > idea or effort its good to see we set ourselves in the right > direction. The amount of involvement required to take it to Linux on > the whole is enormous. I believe we already do that in a modular > fashion in the form of various help sites like > http://linuxquestions.org for users or http://kernelnewbies.org for > developers. A central place to list and combine all these efforts > might work better rather doing it from scratch > > regards > Rahul > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors > Hmm... The article focuses on mentors for end-user support, while our mentors program is geared towards contributors. Is end-user mentoring something we really want to tackle? Obviously, it would be nice to have a full mentoring program for new users, but it is really a question of resources. Our contributor mentoring is only barely getting off the ground. Tackling end-user support would be a huge task, and could lead to all kinds of headaches. If we do decide to take that on, we would certainly need to focus on getting new users to look at the available information before asking questions. Could we really solicit enough volunteers to answer the typical newbie questions each time another newbie comes along? Mentoring programs for end-users are at high risk of attracting lazy or completely incompetent users. We would also have to start pointing users in every class to LUGs and commercial support options. We can't do it all alone. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Sep 17 07:45:46 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 13:15:46 +0530 Subject: Why Linux needs a mentor program In-Reply-To: <432BC6CB.1010009@n-man.com> References: <432BBE1A.5050106@redhat.com> <432BC6CB.1010009@n-man.com> Message-ID: <432BC9AA.6000308@redhat.com> Patrick Barnes wrote: >Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > > >>Hi >> >>It was interesting to read your article on >>http://business.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=05/09/13/1816200&tid=35. >>It was particularly relevant to me since Fedora very recently started >>a mentoring program[1] to get users and developers to participate and >>get involved in Fedora is a better way. While its not a entirely new >>idea or effort its good to see we set ourselves in the right >>direction. The amount of involvement required to take it to Linux on >>the whole is enormous. I believe we already do that in a modular >>fashion in the form of various help sites like >>http://linuxquestions.org for users or http://kernelnewbies.org for >>developers. A central place to list and combine all these efforts >>might work better rather doing it from scratch >> >>regards >>Rahul >> >>http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mentors >> >> >> >Hmm... The article focuses on mentors for end-user support, while our >mentors program is geared towards contributors. Is end-user mentoring >something we really want to tackle? Obviously, it would be nice to have >a full mentoring program for new users, but it is really a question of >resources. Our contributor mentoring is only barely getting off the >ground. > Fedora users list already serves that purpose very well. We can probably invite a few active users in the Fedora-list who are helpful to others and sign them up as mentors explicitly as a form of acknowledgment. You are right that we do not want mentors list to turn into users list - part 2, atleast not without getting new resources regards Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Sat Sep 17 11:35:08 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 14:35:08 +0300 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> Steven Garrity wrote: > Jesse Keating wrote: > >> And how does one recreate it using FOSS? Or better yet, using only what >> comes with Fedora? Self serving is a good thing here. > > > I'm not totally in disagreement here - free is better. However, why do > you need to recreate it? You can't recreate a photograph. Suppose I would want to make my own Fedora fan page and want to put a header with "my fedora fan page" on top of it with the same font face. > That said, you can do everything else in the stack (Inkscape/Gimp, etc.) > with foss. > > If it really is a sticking point (which I don't think it should be), the > symbol can still stand on it's own with another font. From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Sep 17 11:43:17 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 17:13:17 +0530 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <432C0155.2070501@redhat.com> Nicu Buculei wrote: > Steven Garrity wrote: > >> Jesse Keating wrote: >> >>> And how does one recreate it using FOSS? Or better yet, using only >>> what >>> comes with Fedora? Self serving is a good thing here. >> >> >> >> I'm not totally in disagreement here - free is better. However, why >> do you need to recreate it? You can't recreate a photograph. > > > Suppose I would want to make my own Fedora fan page and want to put a > header with "my fedora fan page" on top of it with the same font face. For images, you can probably use and modify svg or png which should be appropriately licensed. how about text? regards Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Sat Sep 17 11:47:22 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 14:47:22 +0300 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <1126907581.6258.55.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126907581.6258.55.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <432C024A.9080302@nicubunu.ro> Karsten Wade wrote: > On Fri, 2005-09-16 at 17:03 -0300, Steven Garrity wrote: > >>Jesse Keating wrote: >> >>>Yeah, using a non-free font seems like a no-go for me. >> >>While a free font would obviously be ideal, there just aren't many good >>ones (yet?). > > > Right, and there won't be unless people make them. Seems like Fedora > Font Project might be a good idea. :) I'm sure there are good font > designers interested in freeing some fonts. Following the success of the Open Clip Art Library (http://openclipart.org), we planned to create a similar project for fonts, but this is still in incubation stage, with only a placeholder wiki so far (http://www.openfontlibrary.org), but definitely the intention is to push it in the future (we have to sort out first some internals of OCAL) -- nicu my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Sep 17 14:09:39 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 19:39:39 +0530 Subject: Revamped Fedora Project website Message-ID: <432C23A3.8050504@redhat.com> Hi I have worked along with Patrick Barnes who has done a great job in a revamping the wiki frontpage and related content over the past few days keeping in mind the earlier discussions we had in the list about the focus of the websites and lots of love :-) . It has also suggested that wiki page be made the root document with restricted ACL's it to Seth Vidal after running it through the designers and also that http://fedoraproject.org be the new primary website for Fedora users as well as developers.Several enhancements have been planned such as hiding the navigation sidebar or replacing it with other links for users who arent logged into the wiki. Moinmoin which is the current wiki implementation is expected to get the ability to use raw html content in version 2.0 which would be helpful is spicing up the page even better. RSS feed support in Moinmoin for pulling in content from the wiki at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/News would also be useful to add to the infofeed. The screenshot might be replaced with something thats appealing to non technical users. Await more information on that later. Presenting http://fedoraproject.org/wiki for your feedback. Have fun! regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Sat Sep 17 18:09:52 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:39:52 +0530 Subject: Fedora and open source software Message-ID: <432C5BF0.4070206@redhat.com> Hi I just came across your article on a quick introduction to several distribution. http://www.informit.com/articles/article.asp?p=414291&seqNum=5 While the description of Fedora is on the spot, but it seems to be making the all too common mistake of comparing open source software to commercial software. The comparison is actually between open source and proprietary software instead. The term used here is important because it conveys the idea that open source cannot be commercialized. While I wouldnt want to detail out all the different means to create commercial open source software it is suffice to say that while the Fedora Project does have not include any proprietary software as "purists", it does include software that be commercialized into a product by anyone which not too surprisingly is what Red Hat itself does. Thank you for your notes on Fedora regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Sun Sep 18 05:57:50 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2005 22:57:50 -0700 Subject: Revamped Fedora Project website In-Reply-To: <432C23A3.8050504@redhat.com> References: <432C23A3.8050504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1127023070.6258.146.camel@erato.phig.org> On Sat, 2005-09-17 at 19:39 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > It has also suggested that > wiki page be made the root document with restricted ACL's it to Seth > Vidal after running it through the designers I like having the Wiki at a URL that is self-referential and has semantic meaning. * "Go to the Wiki" = fedoraproject.org/wiki - If we made it the root, we lose this connection * A Wiki is a way to document, not design websites - It's always a part of/subset of a website's features * The first path after a hostname has common semantic meaning: fp.org/download /= a Wiki place > and also that > http://fedoraproject.org be the new primary website for Fedora users as > well as developers. It seems as if we are trying to get the Wiki to do too much. Certainly, let's move operations over to fp.o. But we might want to consider a different solution for managing all content. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nman64 at n-man.com Sun Sep 18 10:22:01 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Sun, 18 Sep 2005 05:22:01 -0500 Subject: Revamped Fedora Project website In-Reply-To: <1127023070.6258.146.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <432C23A3.8050504@redhat.com> <1127023070.6258.146.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <432D3FC9.1050304@n-man.com> Karsten Wade wrote: >On Sat, 2005-09-17 at 19:39 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > > >>Hi >> >>It has also suggested that >>wiki page be made the root document with restricted ACL's it to Seth >>Vidal after running it through the designers >> >> > >I like having the Wiki at a URL that is self-referential and has >semantic meaning. > >* "Go to the Wiki" = fedoraproject.org/wiki > - If we made it the root, we lose this connection > >* A Wiki is a way to document, not design websites > - It's always a part of/subset of a website's features > >* The first path after a hostname has common semantic meaning: > fp.org/download /= a Wiki place > > > >> and also that >>http://fedoraproject.org be the new primary website for Fedora users as >>well as developers. >> >> > >It seems as if we are trying to get the Wiki to do too much. Certainly, >let's move operations over to fp.o. But we might want to consider a >different solution for managing all content. > >- Karsten > > > > My view is not to make the wiki the root-level content, just the wiki's FrontPage the root-level page. I'm not talking about making the wiki a root-level wiki. There are too many reasons not to do so. However, I think having a redirect from http://fedoraproject.org/ to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FrontPage would be good. With the wiki, we can do more to bring users the information they need, and we can do it in a flexible manner that can be used to react quickly. The wiki will contain links to other content within the fp.org namespace. The 'News Feeds' link is an example of this. If you compare the current page at http://fedoraproject.org/ and the wiki's FrontPage, I think the reasons for my thinking are somewhat obvious. Is a visitor really going to know where they need to go when they look at the current root-level page for the first time? I don't think so. Sure, we could modify the current root-level page to offer everything that the wiki's FrontPage currently offers, but why? The wiki already has this, and we can easily update and change it as needed. We can restrict the ACLs to prevent someone from being tempted to deface the FrontPage, but that is a separate argument. The idea behind this, just like everything else we have had the wiki do, is ease. If the wiki is going to have most of the important content, then, IMO, it should be the first thing a visitor sees. As content is added to fp.org outside of the wiki, it is not a problem to refer to it from within the wiki. There are certainly cases where wiki and non-wiki content can complement each other. Basically, rather than ask 'why', ask 'why not?' -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Mon Sep 19 01:53:32 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 09:53:32 +0800 Subject: Fedora Mentors Message-ID: <432E1A1C.3010808@smlintl.com.au> Hi All, I have figured out how to add people to the mentors list so everyone that has put their names down should be on the mentors list. I'll write up a little announcement and post it here to market the mentors list for people out there using Rahul's list of places to advertise. If anyone has any other suggestions of where to get people interested in contributing give us a yell :) Regards, Marc From sundaram at redhat.com Mon Sep 19 09:57:07 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 15:27:07 +0530 Subject: Fedora Mentors In-Reply-To: <432E1A1C.3010808@smlintl.com.au> References: <432E1A1C.3010808@smlintl.com.au> Message-ID: <432E8B73.7000609@redhat.com> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > Hi All, > > I have figured out how to add people to the mentors list so everyone > that has put their names down should be on the mentors list. > > I'll write up a little announcement and post it here to market the > mentors list for people out there using Rahul's list of places to > advertise. It doesnt hurt to do some marketing within the Fedora Project itself. It helps to assume that every user is a future contributor. Post announcements to mentors list itself and other relevant Fedora lists and in the forums where it reaches both the mentors and the mentees, existing and the potential ones. regards Rahul From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Mon Sep 19 19:10:21 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 15:10:21 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <432C024A.9080302@nicubunu.ro> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126907581.6258.55.camel@erato.phig.org> <432C024A.9080302@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <556f970a0509191210540e4c2f@mail.gmail.com> There are two ways to look at the font issue. One is that when used (and controlled) as part of a protected trademark or logotype, you don't necessarily want to make it that easy for folks to make derivatives. What if they took the font and made "figaro", in the same blue? Trademarks have to be protectable to be protected. You can't tell someone to stop using a free font in their logo. Second way to look at it is, maybe Red Hat does open this font, and/or make it part of the default font set in Fedora, with wording as to how it may be used in conjunction with a fedora related project logo, or otherwise used to support fedora related marketing. IMHO, since we are limited in what we can use to make people instantly think of fedora when they see the font or the logotype by itself (e.g. no visual fedora, just the name), we should consider/allow the possibility that this font will only be used in an official capacity, and that perhaps a family of font that supports it, or compliments it very well, could be released for all the other legit marketing uses. --jeremy From lxmaier at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 08:38:30 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:38:30 +0200 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <556f970a0509191210540e4c2f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126907581.6258.55.camel@erato.phig.org> <432C024A.9080302@nicubunu.ro> <556f970a0509191210540e4c2f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f617d2705092001384fb85466@mail.gmail.com> +1 On 9/19/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > There are two ways to look at the font issue. One is that when used > (and controlled) as part of a protected trademark or logotype, you > don't necessarily want to make it that easy for folks to make > derivatives. What if they took the font and made "figaro", in the same > blue? Trademarks have to be protectable to be protected. You can't > tell someone to stop using a free font in their logo. > > Second way to look at it is, maybe Red Hat does open this font, and/or > make it part of the default font set in Fedora, with wording as to how > it may be used in conjunction with a fedora related project logo, or > otherwise used to support fedora related marketing. > > IMHO, since we are limited in what we can use to make people instantly > think of fedora when they see the font or the logotype by itself (e.g. > no visual fedora, just the name), we should consider/allow the > possibility that this font will only be used in an official capacity, > and that perhaps a family of font that supports it, or compliments it > very well, could be released for all the other legit marketing uses. > > --jeremy > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From stanfinley at comcast.net Tue Sep 20 17:19:48 2005 From: stanfinley at comcast.net (Stanton Finley) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:19:48 -0600 Subject: Proposed Logo Message-ID: <1127236788.3964.4.camel@stantonfinley.org> I was just following the thread at http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=78202. I believe the proposed logo is too flat and two-dimensional. At least the hat logos gave the appearance of a three dimensional object...leaves me cold. The graphical quality of the logo should at least match the quality of the OS. Stan Finley http://stanton-finley.net/ From gdk at redhat.com Tue Sep 20 17:37:16 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:37:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Proposed Logo In-Reply-To: <1127236788.3964.4.camel@stantonfinley.org> References: <1127236788.3964.4.camel@stantonfinley.org> Message-ID: Heh heh heh! So it's hit the masses with full force! "The logo isn't at all appealing. Looks very amateur. No offence but according to the Wiki project, it's been getting rave reviews? Someone hand me a baseball bat. I'm no designer but this is way off." "As lukewarm as I am about the current proposals, have you seen some of the other ideas put forward? Yikes!" "I prefer the Blue Fedora hat." "The 'attractiveness' component is lacking. Maybe more rounded, more attractive colors, etc. It looks too much like broken links." So Matt, more grist for the mill. At this point I think we're pretty far down the acceptance path, though. --g (p.s. I understand that there's a lot you can do with fonts.) _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Tue, 20 Sep 2005, Stanton Finley wrote: > I was just following the thread at > http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=78202. I believe the > proposed logo is too flat and two-dimensional. At least the hat logos > gave the appearance of a three dimensional object...leaves me cold. The > graphical quality of the logo should at least match the quality of the > OS. > > Stan Finley > http://stanton-finley.net/ > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From stanfinley at comcast.net Tue Sep 20 17:48:40 2005 From: stanfinley at comcast.net (Stanton Finley) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 11:48:40 -0600 Subject: Proposed Logo In-Reply-To: References: <1127236788.3964.4.camel@stantonfinley.org> Message-ID: <1127238520.4771.5.camel@stantonfinley.org> I believe it has already been established that there will be no hat. However there should be some art. The logo should not appear to have been created using a vector based 2D CAD application with color fill. And where is the warmth? On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 13:37 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > Heh heh heh! So it's hit the masses with full force! > > "The logo isn't at all appealing. Looks very amateur. No offence but > according to the Wiki project, it's been getting rave reviews? Someone > hand me a baseball bat. I'm no designer but this is way off." > > "As lukewarm as I am about the current proposals, have you seen some of > the other ideas put forward? Yikes!" > > "I prefer the Blue Fedora hat." > > "The 'attractiveness' component is lacking. Maybe more rounded, more > attractive colors, etc. It looks too much like broken links." > > So Matt, more grist for the mill. At this point I think we're pretty far > down the acceptance path, though. > > --g > > (p.s. I understand that there's a lot you can do with fonts.) > > _____________________ ____________________________________________ > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > From luya at jpopmail.com Tue Sep 20 18:02:54 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:02:54 -0800 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 Message-ID: <20050920180254.C9BAC23D09@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> >* Logo - First round at: http://www.capstrat.com/development/fedora/. >Infinite freedom isn't decided as the slogan, but the general consensus is that the logo is loved. Concentrate on logo feedback today. >Color can be fixed later (like Legacy or something) Here is a variation of the initial first logo draft http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=369984&postcount=36 Luya -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.jp.popstarmail.org From gdk at redhat.com Tue Sep 20 18:10:20 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 14:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Proposed Logo In-Reply-To: <1127238520.4771.5.camel@stantonfinley.org> References: <1127236788.3964.4.camel@stantonfinley.org> <1127238520.4771.5.camel@stantonfinley.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Sep 2005, Stanton Finley wrote: > I believe it has already been established that there will be no hat. > However there should be some art. The logo should not appear to have > been created using a vector based 2D CAD application with color fill. > And where is the warmth? You forgot to add "my $0.02." :) See, here's the deal: *every* logo that is *any* good will simply fail to appeal to some segment of the audience. Period. Anyway... we've entrusted the design of this logo to Matt, who can take this feedback as he sees fit. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From stanfinley at comcast.net Tue Sep 20 18:30:49 2005 From: stanfinley at comcast.net (Stanton Finley) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 12:30:49 -0600 Subject: Proposed Logo In-Reply-To: References: <1127236788.3964.4.camel@stantonfinley.org> <1127238520.4771.5.camel@stantonfinley.org> Message-ID: <1127241049.5357.5.camel@stantonfinley.org> My final twopence on the matter then. Mcluhan was right. In the absence of an artist's sensibilities and his brush (even though the brush may be digital) the machine easily masters the grim and the dumb. Stanton Finley http://stanton-finley.net/ On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 14:10 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 20 Sep 2005, Stanton Finley wrote: > > > I believe it has already been established that there will be no hat. > > However there should be some art. The logo should not appear to have > > been created using a vector based 2D CAD application with color fill. > > And where is the warmth? > > You forgot to add "my $0.02." :) > > See, here's the deal: *every* logo that is *any* good will simply fail to > appeal to some segment of the audience. Period. > > Anyway... we've entrusted the design of this logo to Matt, who can take > this feedback as he sees fit. > > --g > > _____________________ ____________________________________________ > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 20:10:47 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 16:10:47 -0400 Subject: Proposed Logo In-Reply-To: <1127241049.5357.5.camel@stantonfinley.org> References: <1127236788.3964.4.camel@stantonfinley.org> <1127238520.4771.5.camel@stantonfinley.org> <1127241049.5357.5.camel@stantonfinley.org> Message-ID: <556f970a050920131072fa4ad4@mail.gmail.com> I can vouch for the designer as a true artist, neither grim nor dumb -- who BTW, are easily mastered with or without art, just look at M$ user base. What is lacking from just looking at the logos posted on the wiki is the progression of thought into building the logo. It has meaning. It is well informed by the core tenets of the project. I'm not sure if you clicked through the explanation, but to get where we are, from where we were is something. He got most of what folks seemed drawn to throughout the conversation. If you look at established brands and logos, and you get warmth you are actually getting a pavlovian response that is rooted in what the company does for you. This is a pass at visual identity, which is one piece of what some call the "brand promise" -- what you say. The rest, the most important part, is made up of what some call the "brand experience" -- what you do. There are rules about logos, and it may seem "flat" or 2D to you, but you can't translate Cingular's 3D dancing avatar to print. It works for them b/c they use TV, a lot. You may see "plain", where others see "elegant". For example: no one could look at the Nike swoop and get *anything* from it at face value. The name itself has a broad, and not so original inferred meaning, but still not too telling of the company. Yet, you look at the swoop and you think "Just do it." or "lemme go crush my competitors with glee and impunity" Or you see the logo and you say "filthy sweat shop mongerers". Why? b/c that's what Nike puts *behind* the logo. Neither feeling comes from the logo, per se. What does that chick on a Starbucks cup mean? She doesn't scream over-roasted beans and death to local roasters to me. Nor does she say "this is damned fine coffee". I had to get that opinion from Starbuck's actions. How many people thought of Battlestar Galactica when they first heard the name? What do you think of it today? Think of Apple. An Apple with a bite out of it is incredibly un-original considering what you know of Apple, but yet when you see it, you are infused with either a cult-like longing to buy whatever they want you to, or a sense of lifestyle affirmation -- or you don't get it, and they don't care b/c the right people *will* get it, and if you're not into joing the tribe, they're not into having you as a customer. That's [art of their "promise". Anyone in the Cult of Apple can attest, it's core to the "experience". I see the Windows logo, or those crappy "touchy feely" commercials they have been running, and I want to fling myself out a plate glass window and grind my face around in the dirt. I'll bet you $1 the color scheme or four wavy panes isn't triggering that response in me. Where is the warmth? It's in the Fedora experience, in the community, in the roots of the movement. This is a jumping off point, and merely a way for people to always know what the logo means *to them*. I don't mean to rant, but this logo -- or whatever logo wins the day -- will only mean what we make it mean, no matter how cleverly we dream up subliminal meaning. We will either deliver an experience that more people like than hate, or we won't. --jeremy On 9/20/05, Stanton Finley wrote: > > My final twopence on the matter then. Mcluhan was right. In the absence > of an artist's sensibilities and his brush (even though the brush may be > digital) the machine easily masters the grim and the dumb. > > Stanton Finley > http://stanton-finley.net/ > > On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 14:10 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Sep 2005, Stanton Finley wrote: > > > > > I believe it has already been established that there will be no hat. > > > However there should be some art. The logo should not appear to have > > > been created using a vector based 2D CAD application with color fill. > > > And where is the warmth? > > > > You forgot to add "my $0.02." :) > > > > See, here's the deal: *every* logo that is *any* good will simply fail > to > > appeal to some segment of the audience. Period. > > > > Anyway... we've entrusted the design of this logo to Matt, who can take > > this feedback as he sees fit. > > > > --g > > > > _____________________ ____________________________________________ > > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 21:36:00 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:36:00 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <7f617d2705092001384fb85466@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126907581.6258.55.camel@erato.phig.org> <432C024A.9080302@nicubunu.ro> <556f970a0509191210540e4c2f@mail.gmail.com> <7f617d2705092001384fb85466@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910509201436717202e1@mail.gmail.com> On 9/20/05, Alex Maier wrote: > Visit FUDCon London 2005 > http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon > > FUDCon: > Fedora Users and Developers Conference Speaking of fudcon.... is there a draft variation using the logo draft in a way that makes clever sense for fudcon. I'd just thought I ask..because fudcon breaks with the pattern of other variations...not being a simple 2 word fedora + subproject.. and use the same variation approach with secondary color/second word doesn't seem to fit very well. -jef"draft draft"spaleta From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Sep 20 22:00:47 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 18:00:47 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <20050920180254.C9BAC23D09@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050920180254.C9BAC23D09@ws5-3.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <604aa7910509201500161589c3@mail.gmail.com> On 9/20/05, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > Here is a variation of the initial first logo draft > http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=369984&postcount=36 Pro: I like the secondary color being used as a shadow image of the "speech balloon" There might be something to consider.. bringing the secondard color out of the "infinity" symbol. Instead of being very careful about picking secondary colors in the infinity symbol that provide a good contrast.. doing it this way we can pick one single color for the turns in infinity symbol that constrasts well with the "f" and avoid the issues about poor constrasting inside the symbol. Con: I don't think the fading of the blue as done here on the "f" into the white "infinity" helps with contrast. I think its even harder to see the "f" than with the original draft. I would imagine that a grey scale version of that logo would suffer even more from contrast issues. Indifferent: I'm not sure what the overall fade to white on the right handside of the overall image is adding. Is it meant to give the speech balloon spherical "depth"? If thats the idea, there is room for improvement to keep a better defined edge while providing the 3-d shading. I have no feeling as to flat 2-d versus simulating 3-d shading. As long as there is a version that looks good in black and white. I guess if the logo is going to end up being an svg image, one could delibrate design a shading layer so the same svg could generate both flat and shaded versions of the logo. There will be situations where a flat 2 or 3 color image are prefered over high gloss. -jef"I'm a fedora user, where's my f.u. t-shirt?"spaleta From lxmaier at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 08:47:23 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:47:23 +0200 Subject: Proposed Logo In-Reply-To: <556f970a050920131072fa4ad4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1127236788.3964.4.camel@stantonfinley.org> <1127238520.4771.5.camel@stantonfinley.org> <1127241049.5357.5.camel@stantonfinley.org> <556f970a050920131072fa4ad4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f617d270509210147561c9f6b@mail.gmail.com> Jeremy +1 Matt--judging on the strength of emotions around the logo, it is exactly what we needed! a On 9/20/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > I can vouch for the designer as a true artist, neither grim nor dumb -- who > BTW, are easily mastered with or without art, just look at M$ user base. > > What is lacking from just looking at the logos posted on the wiki is the > progression of thought into building the logo. It has meaning. It is well > informed by the core tenets of the project. I'm not sure if you clicked > through the explanation, but to get where we are, from where we were is > something. He got most of what folks seemed drawn to throughout the > conversation. > > If you look at established brands and logos, and you get warmth you are > actually getting a pavlovian response that is rooted in what the company > does for you. This is a pass at visual identity, which is one piece of what > some call the "brand promise" -- what you say. The rest, the most important > part, is made up of what some call the "brand experience" -- what you do. > There are rules about logos, and it may seem "flat" or 2D to you, but you > can't translate Cingular's 3D dancing avatar to print. It works for them b/c > they use TV, a lot. You may see "plain", where others see "elegant". > > For example: no one could look at the Nike swoop and get *anything* from it > at face value. The name itself has a broad, and not so original inferred > meaning, but still not too telling of the company. Yet, you look at the > swoop and you think "Just do it." or "lemme go crush my competitors with > glee and impunity" Or you see the logo and you say "filthy sweat shop > mongerers". Why? b/c that's what Nike puts *behind* the logo. Neither > feeling comes from the logo, per se. > > What does that chick on a Starbucks cup mean? She doesn't scream > over-roasted beans and death to local roasters to me. Nor does she say "this > is damned fine coffee". I had to get that opinion from Starbuck's actions. > How many people thought of Battlestar Galactica when they first heard the > name? What do you think of it today? > > Think of Apple. An Apple with a bite out of it is incredibly un-original > considering what you know of Apple, but yet when you see it, you are infused > with either a cult-like longing to buy whatever they want you to, or a sense > of lifestyle affirmation -- or you don't get it, and they don't care b/c the > right people *will* get it, and if you're not into joing the tribe, they're > not into having you as a customer. That's [art of their "promise". Anyone in > the Cult of Apple can attest, it's core to the "experience". > > I see the Windows logo, or those crappy "touchy feely" commercials they > have been running, and I want to fling myself out a plate glass window and > grind my face around in the dirt. I'll bet you $1 the color scheme or four > wavy panes isn't triggering that response in me. > > Where is the warmth? It's in the Fedora experience, in the community, in > the roots of the movement. This is a jumping off point, and merely a way for > people to always know what the logo means *to them*. > > I don't mean to rant, but this logo -- or whatever logo wins the day -- > will only mean what we make it mean, no matter how cleverly we dream up > subliminal meaning. We will either deliver an experience that more people > like than hate, or we won't. > > --jeremy > > > On 9/20/05, Stanton Finley wrote: > > My final twopence on the matter then. Mcluhan was right. In the absence > > of an artist's sensibilities and his brush (even though the brush may be > > digital) the machine easily masters the grim and the dumb. > > > > Stanton Finley > > http://stanton-finley.net/ > > > > On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 14:10 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > On Tue, 20 Sep 2005, Stanton Finley wrote: > > > > > > > I believe it has already been established that there will be no hat. > > > > However there should be some art. The logo should not appear to have > > > > been created using a vector based 2D CAD application with color fill. > > > > And where is the warmth? > > > > > > You forgot to add "my $0.02." :) > > > > > > See, here's the deal: *every* logo that is *any* good will simply fail > to > > > appeal to some segment of the audience. Period. > > > > > > Anyway... we've entrusted the design of this logo to Matt, who can take > > > this feedback as he sees fit. > > > > > > --g > > > > > > _____________________ > ____________________________________________ > > > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > > > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > > > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > > > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > > > > > -- > > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From mmunoz at capstrat.com Wed Sep 21 12:54:42 2005 From: mmunoz at capstrat.com (Matt Munoz) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 08:54:42 -0400 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <604aa7910509201436717202e1@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126907581.6258.55.camel@erato.phig.org> <432C024A.9080302@nicubunu.ro> <556f970a0509191210540e4c2f@mail.gmail.com> <7f617d2705092001384fb85466@mail.gmail.com> <604aa7910509201436717202e1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 20, 2005, at 5:36 PM, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/20/05, Alex Maier wrote: > >> Visit FUDCon London 2005 >> http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon >> >> FUDCon: >> Fedora Users and Developers Conference >> > > > Speaking of fudcon.... is there a draft variation using the logo draft > in a way that makes clever sense for fudcon. I'd just thought I > ask..because fudcon breaks with the pattern of other variations...not > being a simple 2 word fedora + subproject.. and use the same variation > approach with secondary color/second word doesn't seem to fit very > well. ??? there isn't one yet > > -jef"draft draft"spaleta > ??? Matthew Mu?oz | Capstrat | 919-882-1975 From ovidiu at linux360.ro Wed Sep 21 14:37:46 2005 From: ovidiu at linux360.ro (Ovidiu Lixandru) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:37:46 +0300 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <4331703A.3090300@linux360.ro> Nicu Buculei wrote: > Suppose I would want to make my own Fedora fan page and want to put a > header with "my fedora fan page" on top of it with the same font face. There are lots of GPL projects out there that use commercial fonts for their logos. For instance, phpBB had no regrets using Tripex for theirs. Besides that, I think Matt's proposed logos are very neat and plain... cool, if I may say so. -- Ovidiu Lixandru linux360 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 5653 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 14:47:37 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:17:37 +0530 Subject: Fedora International community websites Message-ID: <43317289.9050005@redhat.com> Hi Just came across this http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=64174 regards Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Sep 21 15:06:19 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:06:19 +0300 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <4331703A.3090300@linux360.ro> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> <4331703A.3090300@linux360.ro> Message-ID: <433176EB.4060107@nicubunu.ro> Ovidiu Lixandru wrote: > Nicu Buculei wrote: > >> Suppose I would want to make my own Fedora fan page and want to put a >> header with "my fedora fan page" on top of it with the same font face. > > > There are lots of GPL projects out there that use commercial fonts for > their logos. For instance, phpBB had no regrets using Tripex for theirs. This is true, but also a lot of GPL projects are changing the fonts used in the logo from propietary one to a free one at the request of the community. For example such a change is expected at OpenOffice.org. Regarding your phpBB example, look at http://www.phpbb.com/images/pic-home2.jpg The font used for "creating communities" is probably Arial Bold Italic but can be easily replaced with Bitstream Vera Sans Bold Italic. Is not the logo, but the wordmark which may be needed to be customised. > Besides that, I think Matt's proposed logos are very neat and plain... > cool, if I may say so. The quality of the logo and the font used for the wordmark are completely orthogonal. -- nicu my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From lxmaier at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 15:22:07 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 17:22:07 +0200 Subject: Revamped Fedora Project website In-Reply-To: <432C23A3.8050504@redhat.com> References: <432C23A3.8050504@redhat.com> Message-ID: <7f617d2705092108221f14d9e3@mail.gmail.com> The page looks great! I agree with Patrick's remarks regarding the /wiki directory being default root directory. Cheers, a On 9/17/05, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Hi > > I have worked along with Patrick Barnes who has done a great job in a > revamping the wiki frontpage and related content over the past few days > keeping in mind the earlier discussions we had in the list about the > focus of the websites and lots of love :-) . It has also suggested that > wiki page be made the root document with restricted ACL's it to Seth > Vidal after running it through the designers and also that > http://fedoraproject.org be the new primary website for Fedora users as > well as developers.Several enhancements have been planned such as hiding > the navigation sidebar or replacing it with other links for users who > arent logged into the wiki. Moinmoin which is the current wiki > implementation is expected to get the ability to use raw html content in > version 2.0 which would be helpful is spicing up the page even better. > RSS feed support in Moinmoin for pulling in content from the wiki at > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/News would also be useful to add to the > infofeed. The screenshot might be replaced with something thats > appealing to non technical users. Await more information on that later. > > Presenting http://fedoraproject.org/wiki for your feedback. Have fun! > > regards > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From ovidiu at linux360.ro Wed Sep 21 16:08:32 2005 From: ovidiu at linux360.ro (Ovidiu Lixandru) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:08:32 +0300 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <433176EB.4060107@nicubunu.ro> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> <4331703A.3090300@linux360.ro> <433176EB.4060107@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <43318580.90606@linux360.ro> Nicu Buculei wrote: > This is true, but also a lot of GPL projects are changing the fonts used > in the logo from propietary one to a free one at the request of the > community. For example such a change is expected at OpenOffice.org. This is fine, as long as the only argument is not "hey, it's commercial!". Open-source does not mean freeware, even though most people make this mistake. The hired/designated designer paid for the font, does his job and delivers the product. > Regarding your phpBB example, look at > http://www.phpbb.com/images/pic-home2.jpg > The font used for "creating communities" is probably Arial Bold Italic > but can be easily replaced with Bitstream Vera Sans Bold Italic. Nope, it's Tripex (or Triplex, I've found the font using both of the names) and it's commercial. Take a look here: http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/emigre/triplex/ > The quality of the logo and the font used for the wordmark are > completely orthogonal. You could say the same thing about open-source and commercialware, at a first glance. -- Ovidiu Lixandru linux360 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 5653 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 16:13:44 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 21:43:44 +0530 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 In-Reply-To: <43318580.90606@linux360.ro> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> <4331703A.3090300@linux360.ro> <433176EB.4060107@nicubunu.ro> <43318580.90606@linux360.ro> Message-ID: <433186B8.5060008@redhat.com> Hi > This is fine, as long as the only argument is not "hey, it's > commercial!". Open-source does not mean freeware, even though most > people make this mistake. The hired/designated designer paid for the > font, does his job and delivers the product. You want to say "hey, it's proprietary" there regards Rahul From stevelist at silverorange.com Wed Sep 21 16:15:53 2005 From: stevelist at silverorange.com (Steven Garrity) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:15:53 -0300 Subject: Free/Open Source fonts In-Reply-To: <43318580.90606@linux360.ro> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <432A5FDC.2020707@nicubunu.ro> <0191A8B2-9723-494F-AE3E-19BBDBBECF93@capstrat.com> <1126897921.6258.25.camel@erato.phig.org> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> <4331703A.3090300@linux360.ro> <433176EB.4060107@nicubunu.ro> <43318580.90606@linux360.ro> Message-ID: <43318739.4080607@silverorange.com> There has been some debate as to whether we should limit ourselves to a freely-licensed font for the Fedora identity. I would suggest that this be decided upon first - independent of the logo/wordmark idea - then, the designers can work within known constraints. Steven Garrity From lxmaier at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 16:24:30 2005 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:24:30 +0200 Subject: Free/Open Source fonts In-Reply-To: <43318739.4080607@silverorange.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> <4331703A.3090300@linux360.ro> <433176EB.4060107@nicubunu.ro> <43318580.90606@linux360.ro> <43318739.4080607@silverorange.com> Message-ID: <7f617d270509210924539cc48b@mail.gmail.com> Fonts--whether protected by copyright or not--are open source by nature, as everyone can see how they are made and make their own with suitable tools. Taking a copyright-protected font for the artwork will not conflict the open source values of Fedora. Cheers, a On 9/21/05, Steven Garrity wrote: > There has been some debate as to whether we should limit ourselves to a > freely-licensed font for the Fedora identity. I would suggest that this > be decided upon first - independent of the logo/wordmark idea - then, > the designers can work within known constraints. > > Steven Garrity > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- Visit FUDCon London 2005 http://fedoraproject.org/fudcon FUDCon: Fedora Users and Developers Conference From gdk at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 16:30:16 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:30:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Free/Open Source fonts In-Reply-To: <7f617d270509210924539cc48b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> <4331703A.3090300@linux360.ro> <433176EB.4060107@nicubunu.ro> <43318580.90606@linux360.ro> <43318739.4080607@silverorange.com> <7f617d270509210924539cc48b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Alex Maier wrote: > Fonts--whether protected by copyright or not--are open source by > nature, as everyone can see how they are made and make their own with > suitable tools. Try duplicating some big design agency's font exactly and passing it off as your own, and see how true that statement actually is. :) > Taking a copyright-protected font for the artwork will not conflict > the open source values of Fedora. I don't think it's quite that simple. That said, can someone point to a good, definitive repository of "open source fonts"? It might be nice to see what the open options are, anyway. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 16:42:41 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 22:12:41 +0530 Subject: Free/Open Source fonts In-Reply-To: References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> <4331703A.3090300@linux360.ro> <433176EB.4060107@nicubunu.ro> <43318580.90606@linux360.ro> <43318739.4080607@silverorange.com> <7f617d270509210924539cc48b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43318D81.60800@redhat.com> Hi > >That said, can someone point to a good, definitive repository of "open >source fonts"? It might be nice to see what the open options are, anyway. > > Also pros and cons - Free and proprietary fonts in a consolidated form. Use the wiki if you want to regards Rahul From fedora at leemhuis.info Wed Sep 21 17:17:05 2005 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 19:17:05 +0200 Subject: Fedora International community websites In-Reply-To: <43317289.9050005@redhat.com> References: <43317289.9050005@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1127323025.3585.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi! Am Mittwoch, den 21.09.2005, 20:17 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > Just came across this > http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=64174 In an ideal world we IMHO would have all forums on our main, officially mentioned "discussion domain", with a different subdomain for forums in different languages, e.g. en.fedoraforum.org (English) es.fedoraforum.org (Spanish) de.fedoraforum.org (German) fr.fedoraforum.org (French) ...to be continued And a wiki and a faq where at least the basic stuff is available in different languages. Currently some people started their own localized fedora-wiki already, for example http://fedorawiki.de /me runs, because I'm *not* volunteering to help getting this realized -- Thorsten Leemhuis From pjones at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 17:25:31 2005 From: pjones at redhat.com (Peter Jones) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:25:31 -0400 Subject: Free/Open Source fonts In-Reply-To: <7f617d270509210924539cc48b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126900501.2815.111.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2507.4050207@silverorange.com> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> <4331703A.3090300@linux360.ro> <433176EB.4060107@nicubunu.ro> <43318580.90606@linux360.ro> <43318739.4080607@silverorange.com> <7f617d270509210924539cc48b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1127323532.12452.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 18:24 +0200, Alex Maier wrote: > Fonts--whether protected by copyright or not--are open source by > nature, as everyone can see how they are made and make their own with > suitable tools. That's just not the case. There's a reason Ariel has very slight differences from Helvetica, and it's not that MS didn't think Helvetica looked right. It's also not that they couldn't figure out how to copy it. > Taking a copyright-protected font for the artwork will not conflict > the open source values of Fedora. I think it's reasonable to use a copyrighted font, yes. -- Peter From gdk at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 17:29:44 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora International community websites In-Reply-To: <1127323025.3585.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <43317289.9050005@redhat.com> <1127323025.3585.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: The only way this will work, IMHO: * Identify motivated bilingual folks; * Have these folks put watches on the whole (English+their-language) site; * Build parallel wiki sites that are identical in structure; * Charge these folks with the duties of (a) Translating from English -> language_x (b) AND translating back. The key challenge, of course, is finding these individuals. Technically, it's not an insurmountable challenge. Any chance we can get hold of the people who rus fedorawiki.de and see if they'd be willing to run fp.o/wiki_de/ (or some such)? One motivated person, and a little bit of wiki tweakage, can give us a perfect test case. Proof of concepts are everything with something like this. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Hi! > > Am Mittwoch, den 21.09.2005, 20:17 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > > > Just came across this > > http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=64174 > > In an ideal world we IMHO would have all forums on our main, officially > mentioned "discussion domain", with a different subdomain for forums in > different languages, e.g. > > en.fedoraforum.org (English) > es.fedoraforum.org (Spanish) > de.fedoraforum.org (German) > fr.fedoraforum.org (French) > ...to be continued > > And a wiki and a faq where at least the basic stuff is available in > different languages. Currently some people started their own localized > fedora-wiki already, for example > http://fedorawiki.de > > /me runs, because I'm *not* volunteering to help getting this realized > -- > Thorsten Leemhuis > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From fedora at leemhuis.info Wed Sep 21 18:09:50 2005 From: fedora at leemhuis.info (Thorsten Leemhuis) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:09:50 +0200 Subject: Fedora International community websites In-Reply-To: References: <43317289.9050005@redhat.com> <1127323025.3585.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1127326190.3585.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Am Mittwoch, den 21.09.2005, 13:29 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg: > The only way this will work, IMHO: > > * Identify motivated bilingual folks; > * Have these folks put watches on the whole (English+their-language) > site; > * Build parallel wiki sites that are identical in structure; > * Charge these folks with the duties of > (a) Translating from English -> language_x > (b) AND translating back. > > The key challenge, of course, is finding these individuals. Technically, > it's not an insurmountable challenge. > > Any chance we can get hold of the people who rus fedorawiki.de and see if > they'd be willing to run fp.o/wiki_de/ (or some such)? > > One motivated person, and a little bit of wiki tweakage, can give us a > perfect test case. Proof of concepts are everything with something like > this. I'll try to contact those and ask them if they are interested. But IMHO the biggest problems see currently: - What with content from the german wiki -- do we want to integrate it in our current wiki? If yes: -- What is legally allowed on http://www.fedoraproject.org ? When the wiki was quite new I asked if it was okay to mention livna stuff there. The answer was: Better not mention it. But now we have a http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DavidFarning/fedorafaq in it that mentions livna and other things that might be problematic. -- If the english written by people with a different mother tongue is to horrible (like my english) -- are there people with good english skills around that can fix it? - I think without technical support in/around the wiki the content will between the different languages will diverge soon. But maybe I'm wrong. If people People maintaining the wiki send changes in the german version back upward into the english version it might work. BTW gregdk, your points above only concerned the wiki -- getting the subdomains to a start on fedoraforum.org might be a lot easier. There should be nearly nothing to translate. BTW2, Who is behind http://www.fedorausers.org/ and are there technically things planed to get this a multi-language site from the start? Do wee need that web-page if we have the faq in the wiki? > On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > > > Hi! > > > > Am Mittwoch, den 21.09.2005, 20:17 +0530 schrieb Rahul Sundaram: > > > > > Just came across this > > > http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=64174 > > > > In an ideal world we IMHO would have all forums on our main, officially > > mentioned "discussion domain", with a different subdomain for forums in > > different languages, e.g. > > > > en.fedoraforum.org (English) > > es.fedoraforum.org (Spanish) > > de.fedoraforum.org (German) > > fr.fedoraforum.org (French) > > ...to be continued > > > > And a wiki and a faq where at least the basic stuff is available in > > different languages. Currently some people started their own localized > > fedora-wiki already, for example > > http://fedorawiki.de > > > > /me runs, because I'm *not* volunteering to help getting this realized > > -- > > Thorsten Leemhuis > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- Thorsten Leemhuis From luya at jpopmail.com Wed Sep 21 18:20:42 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:20:42 -0800 Subject: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 Message-ID: <20050921182042.BD963CA0A3@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> >Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 18:00:47 -0400 >From: Jeff Spaleta >Subject: Re: Meeting minutes - 16/09/2005 >To: Discussions on expanding the Fedora user base >Message-ID: <604aa7910509201500161589c3 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Con: I don't think the fading of the blue as done here on the "f" into >the white "infinity" helps with contrast. I think its even harder to >see the "f" than with the original draft. I would imagine that a grey >scale version of that logo would suffer even more from contrast >issues. Perhaps giving a liquid look similar to water to the "f" will help. I also think about italic handwriting "f" style inside the infinity symbol. >Indifferent: I'm not sure what the overall fade to white on the right >handside of the overall image is adding. Is it meant to give the >speech balloon spherical "depth"? If thats the idea, there is room for >improvement to keep a better defined edge while providing the 3-d >shading. I have no feeling as to flat 2-d versus simulating 3-d >shading. As long as there is a version that looks good in black and >white. I guess if the logo is going to end up being an svg image, one >could delibrate design a shading layer so the same svg could generate >both flat and shaded versions of the logo. There will be situations >where a flat 2 or 3 color image are prefered over high gloss. Yes, faded while gives a sense of depth. I actually use Inkscape to reproduce the logo so it will be logical to make log as svg. I converted it to opaque png as majority of users still use Internet Explorer (lack of transparency for png). -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.jp.popstarmail.org From gdk at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 18:22:46 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion Message-ID: So here's a snippet from this thread on FedoraForum.org, from jspaar: "But trying to spin this like it was an open process in which the community was highly involved? As Greg DeK. spelled out in the marketing list discussion, he has paid a professional to do it according to Red Hat's specs, and he has signed off on the result (allowing for minor tweaks) before 99% of the "community" has even become aware that it existed." (http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=370607&postcount=69) This is a fair point -- to an extent. We wanted enough input to validate the direction the logo should take. The mechanism we used to gather that input was the Fedora marketing list. Why? Because this is *precisely* why the Fedora marketing group exists. And yes, that *necessarily* excludes 99% of the Fedora community -- but it *includes* the 1% who care enough about the direction of Fedora's brand to get *directly* involved. And *those* people were *highly* involved in the process around this decision. These people were submitting logo ideas -- some good, some not-so-good, some not-at-all-good -- for *months* before we commissioned this version -- and that *very* active debate *directly* informed Matt's choices, as he made clear in his top-notch presentation. But, y'know, it's not code. It's a logo. In code, it's frequently the case that "one way is better." In design, that's *almost never* the case. Therefore, our process was to: 1. Gather input; 2. Designate someone to create the logo; 3. Validate the logo. It was all done completely transparently, too. And because there are roughly as many people who like the logo as who hate the logo, and because that is generally true with *any* design task (as most designers will tell you), and because people generally respect the thought process that led to the logo, the logo is probably a winner. Matt Munoz, the talented designer who came up with it, has the final say at this point -- because as jspaar also points out, "benevolent dictatorship is necessary or nothing gets decided." In this case, that guy is Matt. That's basically my last word on the matter. Feel free to repost links to this message all over teh intraweb. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From gdk at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 18:25:03 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora International community websites In-Reply-To: <1127326190.3585.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <43317289.9050005@redhat.com> <1127323025.3585.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1127326190.3585.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Thorsten Leemhuis wrote: > Am Mittwoch, den 21.09.2005, 13:29 -0400 schrieb Greg DeKoenigsberg: > > The only way this will work, IMHO: > > > > * Identify motivated bilingual folks; > > * Have these folks put watches on the whole (English+their-language) > > site; > > * Build parallel wiki sites that are identical in structure; > > * Charge these folks with the duties of > > (a) Translating from English -> language_x > > (b) AND translating back. > > > > The key challenge, of course, is finding these individuals. Technically, > > it's not an insurmountable challenge. > > > > Any chance we can get hold of the people who rus fedorawiki.de and see if > > they'd be willing to run fp.o/wiki_de/ (or some such)? > > > > One motivated person, and a little bit of wiki tweakage, can give us a > > perfect test case. Proof of concepts are everything with something like > > this. > > I'll try to contact those and ask them if they are interested. But IMHO > the biggest problems see currently: > > - What with content from the german wiki -- do we want to integrate it > in our current wiki? If yes: > -- What is legally allowed on http://www.fedoraproject.org ? > When the wiki was quite new I asked if it was okay to mention livna > stuff there. The answer was: Better not mention it. But now we have a > http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DavidFarning/fedorafaq > in it that mentions livna and other things that might be problematic. > -- If the english written by people with a different mother tongue is to > horrible (like my english) -- are there people with good english skills > around that can fix it? > - I think without technical support in/around the wiki the content will > between the different languages will diverge soon. But maybe I'm wrong. > If people People maintaining the wiki send changes in the german version > back upward into the english version it might work. Nah, we don't want to merge these wikis. I was just suggesting these folks as a good possible starting place. We'd still want to respect our own content rules: i.e. "don't talk about illegal stuff directly." --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 18:31:50 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:01:50 +0530 Subject: Fedora International community websites In-Reply-To: <1127326190.3585.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <43317289.9050005@redhat.com> <1127323025.3585.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1127326190.3585.35.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4331A716.7000504@redhat.com> Hi >stuff there. The answer was: Better not mention it. But now we have a >http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/DavidFarning/fedorafaq >in it that mentions livna and other things that might be problematic. > > Thanks for notification. Removed the content now. We can clarify the restrictions in the wiki editing page regards Rahul From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 19:03:21 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:33:21 +0530 Subject: Fedora FAQ merger effort Message-ID: <4331AE79.1010201@redhat.com> Hi It has been pointed out in the fedora-marketing list about your effort on merging all the Fedora related FAQ's into the wiki. While this is good intent, there are thorny legal issues with linking directly to repositories that provide legally questionable content within US laws. Since Fedora Project only Free and open source software not restricted by patents globally, this doesnt fit with the project's idealogical goals either. I have removed the inappropriate FAQs from the wiki. There is a already a central FAQ in the wiki available from http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAQ If you require any clarifications kindly revert back. I would appreciate more coordination with the docs or marketing project in Fedora before getting started with new efforts such as this so that we can ensure that the ideas are peer reviewed and your efforts are useful to everyone involved. Thanks regards Rahul From kwade at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 19:05:00 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:05:00 -0700 Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1127329500.12820.189.camel@erato.phig.org> On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 14:22 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > We wanted enough input to validate the direction the logo should take. > The mechanism we used to gather that input was the Fedora marketing list. > Why? Because this is *precisely* why the Fedora marketing group exists. > And yes, that *necessarily* excludes 99% of the Fedora community -- but it > *includes* the 1% who care enough about the direction of Fedora's brand to > get *directly* involved. It's a really sad state of affairs we are in. Besides the marketing project, there is Extras and documentation that have *very* high levels of community involvement. In fact, the community members out number the @redhat.com people, hands down. These forum posts insult every one of those community people, including Matt. As with anything in open source, they better get their facts straight before they start foaming at the mouth, or they deserve the bit bucket they get put in. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gdk at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 19:09:41 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: <1127329500.12820.189.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <1127329500.12820.189.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Karsten Wade wrote: > On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 14:22 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > We wanted enough input to validate the direction the logo should take. > > The mechanism we used to gather that input was the Fedora marketing list. > > Why? Because this is *precisely* why the Fedora marketing group exists. > > And yes, that *necessarily* excludes 99% of the Fedora community -- but it > > *includes* the 1% who care enough about the direction of Fedora's brand to > > get *directly* involved. > > It's a really sad state of affairs we are in. > > Besides the marketing project, there is Extras and documentation that > have *very* high levels of community involvement. In fact, the > community members out number the @redhat.com people, hands down. > > These forum posts insult every one of those community people, including > Matt. As with anything in open source, they better get their facts > straight before they start foaming at the mouth, or they deserve the bit > bucket they get put in. It's ok. This kind of heat is a lot better than being ignored. If it brings more well-intentioned people to the project, I think that's a fine thing. And if it causes unreasonable people to decide that we're a bunch of fascists and they'll take their allegiances elsewhere -- well, I have no problem with that, either. And most of all, I remember not to take it personal. I'm doing what I'm convinced is right, as are we all. Good enough for me. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From sundaram at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 19:14:48 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 00:44:48 +0530 Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4331B128.90501@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: >So here's a snippet from this thread on FedoraForum.org, from jspaar: > >"But trying to spin this like it was an open process in which the >community was highly involved? As Greg DeK. spelled out in the marketing >list discussion, he has paid a professional to do it according to Red >Hat's specs, and he has signed off on the result (allowing for minor >tweaks) before 99% of the "community" has even become aware that it >existed." > >(http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=370607&postcount=69) > > I have responded there directly. Unless more people get involved in the effort we cannot advertise our current efforts better. Thats the catch 22 situation. Community members who are already involved are doing a great job. Thank you regards Rahul From luya at jpopmail.com Wed Sep 21 19:33:20 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 11:33:20 -0800 Subject: A variation of the first draft Message-ID: <20050921193320.41028CA0CB@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> Following some Jeff's suggestion, I made a modification of Matt's lago by adding background shade and stylizing both "f" and infinity symbol. Concerning the font, I made it myself. To illustrate the comparison, I added the grey logo. http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=369984&postcount=36 Because of the large size of other topic "Meeting from 16/09/2005", I created this one. -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.jp.popstarmail.org From gdk at redhat.com Wed Sep 21 19:55:09 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 15:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: A variation of the first draft In-Reply-To: <20050921193320.41028CA0CB@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050921193320.41028CA0CB@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: Shading doesn't show up on an embroidered hat... --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > Following some Jeff's suggestion, I made a modification > of Matt's lago by adding background shade and stylizing > both "f" and infinity symbol. > Concerning the font, I made it myself. > To illustrate the comparison, I added the grey logo. > http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showpost.php?p=369984&postcount=36 > > Because of the large size of other topic "Meeting from 16/09/2005", > I created this one. > > -- > _______________________________________________ > Get your free email from http://mymail.jp.popstarmail.org > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From luya at jpopmail.com Wed Sep 21 20:10:44 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 12:10:44 -0800 Subject: A variation of the first draft Message-ID: <20050921201044.9E3797B49F@ws5-10.us4.outblaze.com> Look at the light blue behind "bubble hat". >Shading doesn't show up on an embroidered hat... >--g -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.jp.popstarmail.org From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Wed Sep 21 21:14:05 2005 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 14:14:05 -0700 Subject: A variation of the first draft In-Reply-To: <20050921193320.41028CA0CB@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20050921193320.41028CA0CB@ws5-11.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <1127337245.20806.76.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2005-09-21 at 11:33 -0800, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > Following some Jeff's suggestion, I made a modification > of Matt's lago by adding background shade and stylizing > both "f" and infinity symbol. I like the slanting of the "f" and infinity symbol. It makes the infintity less like a crooked "8" and give the "f" some forward momentum... evoking the future-looking nature of our distribution? Have you played with stretching the speech bubble horizontally so it looks more like a speech bubble? The square shape of the logo makes me think eyedropper rather than speech bubble. -Toshio -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From gmaxwell at gmail.com Wed Sep 21 22:11:24 2005 From: gmaxwell at gmail.com (Gregory Maxwell) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 18:11:24 -0400 Subject: Free/Open Source fonts In-Reply-To: <1127323532.12452.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1126800077.3758.457.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> <1126902438.2815.113.camel@prometheus.gamehouse.com> <432B2F29.1010208@silverorange.com> <432BFF6C.1080205@nicubunu.ro> <4331703A.3090300@linux360.ro> <433176EB.4060107@nicubunu.ro> <43318580.90606@linux360.ro> <43318739.4080607@silverorange.com> <7f617d270509210924539cc48b@mail.gmail.com> <1127323532.12452.25.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On 9/21/05, Peter Jones wrote: > That's just not the case. There's a reason Ariel has very slight > differences from Helvetica, and it's not that MS didn't think Helvetica > looked right. It's also not that they couldn't figure out how to copy > it. > > > Taking a copyright-protected font for the artwork will not conflict > > the open source values of Fedora. > > I think it's reasonable to use a copyrighted font, yes. I don't.. but beyond that, do we really want that font? I showed the proposed fedora logo to three folks in my little local fedora-using community, and all three of them made a negative comment about the font, and I was specifically told that the one used on the fedora desktop logo looked nicer. This surprised me somewhat, because I hadn't even noticed the font, ... I was too busy trying to come up with an explanation of why I felt the bubble shape felt wrong. In general I don't know what we're saying about the usefulness of the "infinite freedom" desktop if you can't even reproduce its logo with a free font. :) Since the characters can just be distributed as paths, perhaps it's not a big issue, but I'd presume that it may be desirable to have the sub-projects text in the same typeface, so the use of a non-free font might even present practical issues. From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Thu Sep 22 03:50:35 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 11:50:35 +0800 Subject: Proposed Logo In-Reply-To: <1127236788.3964.4.camel@stantonfinley.org> References: <1127236788.3964.4.camel@stantonfinley.org> Message-ID: <1127361035.2711.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-09-20 at 11:19 -0600, Stanton Finley wrote: > I was just following the thread at > http://www.fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=78202. I believe the > proposed logo is too flat and two-dimensional. At least the hat logos > gave the appearance of a three dimensional object...leaves me cold. The > graphical quality of the logo should at least match the quality of the > OS. > I've added my thoughts to the thread as well. I'm hoping in a way that we get some people who contribute to the fedora project out of this. They have the energy wouldn't it be good if they used it to benefit all the users :) Regards, Marc From luya at jpopmail.com Thu Sep 22 04:03:39 2005 From: luya at jpopmail.com (Luya Tshimbalanga) Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 20:03:39 -0800 Subject: A variation of the first draft Message-ID: <20050922040339.E7822203FE@ws5-1.us4.outblaze.com> >Have you played with stretching the speech bubble horizontally so it >looks more like a speech bubble? The square shape of the logo makes me >think eyedropper rather than speech bubble. > >-Toshio Check out the link. I added a modification following your suggestion. Quite funny you mentionned eyedropper as it didn't come in mind. =) Luya -- _______________________________________________ Get your free email from http://mymail.jp.popstarmail.org From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Sep 22 19:22:14 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:22:14 -0400 Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> On 9/21/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > We wanted enough input to validate the direction the logo should take. > The mechanism we used to gather that input was the Fedora marketing list. > Why? Because this is *precisely* why the Fedora marketing group exists. > And yes, that *necessarily* excludes 99% of the Fedora community -- but it > *includes* the 1% who care enough about the direction of Fedora's brand to > get *directly* involved. +1 And not only that, but this particular issue is not up for broad debate, or a referendum, since RH marketing and legal have to make the final call. So inviting a mass of folks to contribute, only to find out that they didn't get their way, or that their input could be considered would have made them even madder. Besides, we don't need the other 99% of the community telling us it should be a blue hat. ;-) --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Sep 23 01:49:10 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:49:10 +0800 Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1127440150.31423.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> +1 I agree if people had been following the issues well they we would know the hat issue has been gone over a few times and that its been decided that its not to be used. Marc On Thu, 2005-09-22 at 15:22 -0400, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > On 9/21/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > We wanted enough input to validate the direction the logo > should take. > The mechanism we used to gather that input was the Fedora > marketing list. > Why? Because this is *precisely* why the Fedora marketing > group exists. > And yes, that *necessarily* excludes 99% of the Fedora > community -- but it > *includes* the 1% who care enough about the direction of > Fedora's brand to > get *directly* involved. > > +1 > > And not only that, but this particular issue is not up for broad > debate, or a referendum, since RH marketing and legal have to make the > final call. So inviting a mass of folks to contribute, only to find > out that they didn't get their way, or that their input could be > considered would have made them even madder. > > Besides, we don't need the other 99% of the community telling us it > should be a blue hat. ;-) > > --jeremy > > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From marc.w at smlintl.com.au Fri Sep 23 02:00:03 2005 From: marc.w at smlintl.com.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:00:03 +0800 Subject: Meeting Message-ID: <1127440803.31423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Was there a right up relating to last nights meeting? I haven't seen one come through? Regards, Mar From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 02:01:57 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:01:57 -0400 Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> On 9/22/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > Besides, we don't need the other 99% of the community telling us it should > be a blue hat. ;-) For the record... i wanted a goat. Maybe I can rally the goat lovers under a single banner and march onto the field of battle branishing our superior weapons of rhetorical might, dispatching blue hat clan to the four winds. Though I think instead, I'll move this debate forward.... so... what are the chances we can see cdrom/dvd labels using whatever logo is finalized included on the isos? Ideally I'd LOVE to see labels that left room for co-branding. So any organization who was producing install media from the iso images could use the provided labels and slap their orgnization logo/name in a specified area on the official cd labels. -jef"king of the meatheads!"spaleta From barzilay at redhat.com Fri Sep 23 02:12:01 2005 From: barzilay at redhat.com (David Barzilay) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 12:12:01 +1000 Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1127441521.5767.8.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> Thanks, Jef! That's an advance in this discussion list. Let's move on! BTW, I'm in the process of establishing a Brazilian Fedora users (not developers nor translators) website to better promote FC to this market. Anyone interested in giving me a hand with establishing a mailing list, including links, and other contents? It has been a long time since I first tried to set up this website, and hopefully we'll make it happen soon. Do the Marketing gurus here intend to set a procedure for further local websites? Thanks, -- David Barzilay Brazilian Portuguese Technical Translator Red Hat Asia-Pacific On Thu, 2005-09-22 at 22:01 -0400, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/22/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > Besides, we don't need the other 99% of the community telling us it should > > be a blue hat. ;-) > > For the record... i wanted a goat. Maybe I can rally the goat lovers > under a single banner and march onto the field of battle branishing > our superior weapons of rhetorical might, dispatching blue hat clan to > the four winds. Though I think instead, I'll move this debate > forward.... so... what are the chances we can see cdrom/dvd labels > using whatever logo is finalized included on the isos? Ideally I'd > LOVE to see labels that left room for co-branding. So any organization > who was producing install media from the iso images could use the > provided labels and slap their orgnization logo/name in a specified > area on the official cd labels. > > -jef"king of the meatheads!"spaleta > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br Fri Sep 23 04:40:40 2005 From: rodrigopadula at sagraluzzatto.com.br (Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 01:40:40 -0300 Subject: Fedora Logo Message-ID: <43338748.5090800@sagraluzzatto.com.br> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi! In this site they are some ideas for logo of the Fedora Project http://www.gunix.com.br/fedora (by me) and http://www.ruyjr.com/fedora (by Ruy Jr) - -- +================================================+ RODRIGO PADULA DE OLIVEIRA (o- BACHAREL EM SISTEMAS DE INFORMA??O //\ FACULDADE METODISTA GRANBERY - FMG V_/_ PostgreSQL - PHP - Linux +================================================+ Membro Fundador do Gunix Linux http://www.gunix.com.br -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDM4dI8arYxsJpZ0URAoVKAJ9TKr7JOVijXJeKMvTyPZ8rl60IqACfUeIT 0oGYswFtkJL9rdlwOWqymgk= =6/S6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Sep 23 05:57:10 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:57:10 +0300 Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43339936.1020406@nicubunu.ro> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > Though I think instead, I'll move this debate > forward.... so... what are the chances we can see cdrom/dvd labels > using whatever logo is finalized included on the isos? Ideally I'd > LOVE to see labels that left room for co-branding. So any organization > who was producing install media from the iso images could use the > provided labels and slap their orgnization logo/name in a specified > area on the official cd labels. This is an easy one: provide the infrastructure and they will come. The infrastructure would be a web page (gallery) where people can submit images. The only downside to this is people will submit labels containing whatever they like, the official logo or something else. -- nicu my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From gdk at redhat.com Fri Sep 23 06:08:42 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 02:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I like the idea of co-branding. A lot. In fact, I think that the entire distro should be a lot more co-brandable than it is. At the very least, we should be able to allow LUGs to burn their own versions of Fedora that have their own (homepage in Firefox) and (spiffy default background image) or whatever. There are bigger fish to fry, but I think this is a spiffy idea for promotion. Always have. Now... what am I gonna do about it? I dunno. But it sure is a good idear. Yes, indeedy. --h _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 22 Sep 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/22/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > Besides, we don't need the other 99% of the community telling us it should > > be a blue hat. ;-) > > For the record... i wanted a goat. Maybe I can rally the goat lovers > under a single banner and march onto the field of battle branishing > our superior weapons of rhetorical might, dispatching blue hat clan to > the four winds. Though I think instead, I'll move this debate > forward.... so... what are the chances we can see cdrom/dvd labels > using whatever logo is finalized included on the isos? Ideally I'd > LOVE to see labels that left room for co-branding. So any organization > who was producing install media from the iso images could use the > provided labels and slap their orgnization logo/name in a specified > area on the official cd labels. > > -jef"king of the meatheads!"spaleta > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From gdk at redhat.com Fri Sep 23 07:40:40 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 03:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fp.o translation volunteer Message-ID: David Barzilay has graciously agreed to serve as the guinea pig for the first fp.o translation: into Brazilian Portuguese. So. Now need to decide how, exactly, we structure the translated wiki pages. The simplest way: create language subsections. That would mean, for Brazilian Portuguese: fp.o/wiki/Extras would be translated to fp.o/wiki/br/Extras It may not be the most elegant way, but it would probably get the job done more quickly. I'm also open to better ideas -- but the quicker we can move, the quicker we can take advantage of Mister Barzilay's good will. :) --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan From nman64 at n-man.com Fri Sep 23 11:19:43 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 06:19:43 -0500 Subject: Meeting Minutes - 2005-09-22 Message-ID: <4333E4CF.2000107@n-man.com> == Present == Colin Charles (bytee_) Marc Wiriadisastra (StrikeForce) Patrick Barnes (nman64) Rahul Sundaram (mether) Tejas Dinkar (tejas) == Notes == * Mentors: We've had more people join, but we need to advertise it. News postings and mailing list messages seem good. ACTION: Marc to write up an article and post to Rahul's list of news sites, CC-ing fedora-marketing-list. * SOP: Nobody stepping up. We need a volunteer to take over this one. * Fedora-based distributions list: tejas making progress, first sites listed. He needs help writing the reviews. * Wiki: Have gotten some suggestions, looking for raw HTML support to make improvements. web-devel mailing list? -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 12:12:45 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 08:12:45 -0400 Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: <43339936.1020406@nicubunu.ro> References: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> <43339936.1020406@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <604aa791050923051242f7b277@mail.gmail.com> On 9/23/05, Nicu Buculei wrote: > This is an easy one: provide the infrastructure and they will come. The > infrastructure would be a web page (gallery) where people can submit images. > The only downside to this is people will submit labels containing > whatever they like, the official logo or something else. Uhm... i was asking if the SAME approach that was taken for the logo could be used to create an official set to be provided on the release isos. Hopefully the fc5 release isos, but that depends on when the official logo is finalized. I was not asking for a free-for-all. -jef From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 13:25:47 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:25:47 -0400 Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa791050923062551cbc99d@mail.gmail.com> On 9/23/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > I like the idea of co-branding. A lot. > > In fact, I think that the entire distro should be a lot more co-brandable > than it is. At the very least, we should be able to allow LUGs to burn > their own versions of Fedora that have their own (homepage in Firefox) and > (spiffy default background image) or whatever. Uhm... thats a bigger deal than what I talking about... i much bigger deal... since you are talking about respinning and changing the checksums of the isos. I'm going to back away from that for the moment..though I'll gladly poke you in the eye about it once the foundation is up and running. I'm just looking for "official" cd-label art that can come on the "official" core isos every release, that people can use when burning media so its instantly recognizable as "fedora core" media no matter which organization actually burned the disks AND it has a place for the organization to add their name/logo so they can get credit/blame for providing the install media. Its a simple recipe in terms of information that should be on the labels, but the layout and design are a matter of taste... hence why I think this needs to go through a designer process like the logo. The information that needs to be on the labels provided on the isos is easy: 1: Fedora watermark/trademark 2: Release name/number (release 5 aka yermomma) 3: Disk name/number (i386 Disk 1) or (SRPM Disk 2) 4: "Provided by:" 5: space for organization watermark/trademark to go (PETA) 6: optionally space for burn-on date or other batch/serial number to go. (#93901-aa3) Basically I'm talking about provided one png/jpg per disk that is part of an official iso release, with a short file explaining that its okay to modify the image to add your organizations name/logo in the provided space.. but please don't change the layout or design of the images in any other way. -jef From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Fri Sep 23 13:44:41 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:44:41 +0300 Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: <604aa791050923062551cbc99d@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050923062551cbc99d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433406C9.5020600@nicubunu.ro> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > The information that needs to be on the labels provided on the isos is easy: > 1: Fedora watermark/trademark > 2: Release name/number (release 5 aka yermomma) > 3: Disk name/number (i386 Disk 1) or (SRPM Disk 2) > 4: "Provided by:" > 5: space for organization watermark/trademark to go (PETA) > 6: optionally space for burn-on date or other batch/serial number to > go. (#93901-aa3) > Basically a template like this: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/cdlabel.svg -- nicu my hats collection: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/hats Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org From gdk at redhat.com Fri Sep 23 13:50:26 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 09:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: <604aa791050923062551cbc99d@mail.gmail.com> References: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050923062551cbc99d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: We already have that art, actually, because it's required to burn our promotional copies. Maybe I'll just make it available with terms. /me thinks on it. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Fri, 23 Sep 2005, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 9/23/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > > > I like the idea of co-branding. A lot. > > > > In fact, I think that the entire distro should be a lot more co-brandable > > than it is. At the very least, we should be able to allow LUGs to burn > > their own versions of Fedora that have their own (homepage in Firefox) and > > (spiffy default background image) or whatever. > > Uhm... thats a bigger deal than what I talking about... i much bigger > deal... since you are talking about respinning and changing the > checksums of the isos. I'm going to back away from that for the > moment..though I'll gladly poke you in the eye about it once the > foundation is up and running. > > I'm just looking for "official" cd-label art that can come on the > "official" core isos every release, that people can use when burning > media so its instantly recognizable as "fedora core" media no matter > which organization actually burned the disks AND it has a place for > the organization to add their name/logo so they can get credit/blame > for providing the install media. Its a simple recipe in terms of > information that should be on the labels, but the layout and design > are a matter of taste... hence why I think this needs to go through a > designer process like the logo. > > The information that needs to be on the labels provided on the isos is easy: > 1: Fedora watermark/trademark > 2: Release name/number (release 5 aka yermomma) > 3: Disk name/number (i386 Disk 1) or (SRPM Disk 2) > 4: "Provided by:" > 5: space for organization watermark/trademark to go (PETA) > 6: optionally space for burn-on date or other batch/serial number to > go. (#93901-aa3) > > Basically I'm talking about provided one png/jpg per disk that is part > of an official iso release, with a short file explaining that its okay > to modify the image to add your organizations name/logo in the > provided space.. but please don't change the layout or design of the > images in any other way. > > -jef > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From jspaleta at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 14:01:44 2005 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 10:01:44 -0400 Subject: The ongoing Fedora Forum discussion In-Reply-To: References: <556f970a050922122264ba7f7a@mail.gmail.com> <604aa79105092219014b3f1c0b@mail.gmail.com> <604aa791050923062551cbc99d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <604aa79105092307017ce20d49@mail.gmail.com> On 9/23/05, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > We already have that art, actually, because it's required to burn our > promotional copies. Maybe I'll just make it available with terms. Yes... whatever is used for promo copies... is fine. Modified to make sure there is room for a "Provided by" brand to give space to the org burning the isos and handing them out is better. -jef From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 15:45:32 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:45:32 -0400 Subject: Meeting In-Reply-To: <1127440803.31423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1127440803.31423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <556f970a05092308457dac576c@mail.gmail.com> I think they're every other week now. --jeremy On 9/22/05, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > Was there a right up relating to last nights meeting? > > I haven't seen one come through? > > Regards, > > Mar > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ghenry at suretecsystems.com Fri Sep 23 15:50:14 2005 From: ghenry at suretecsystems.com (Gavin Henry) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:50:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Possible Trademark Infringement? Message-ID: <34965.192.168.100.90.1127490614.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Dear Guys, I was just specifying a Quantum Product, and noticed: http://www.quantum.com/Solutions/Compliance/Index.aspx In their documentation, they use it the other way round too. Quite similar, but you know what the bigs guys can be like. Just a thought. Gavin. -- Kind Regards, Gavin Henry. Managing Director. T +44 (0) 1224 279484 M +44 (0) 7930 323266 F +44 (0) 1224 742001 E ghenry at suretecsystems.com Open Source. Open Solutions(tm). http://www.suretecsystems.com/ From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Fri Sep 23 15:50:52 2005 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 11:50:52 -0400 Subject: Meeting In-Reply-To: <556f970a05092308457dac576c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1127440803.31423.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <556f970a05092308457dac576c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a05092308504961ac80@mail.gmail.com> Woops. Just saw the minutes, shows what I know! --jeremy On 9/23/05, Jeremy Hogan wrote: > > I think they're every other week now. > > --jeremy > > On 9/22/05, Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > > > Was there a right up relating to last nights meeting? > > > > I haven't seen one come through? > > > > Regards, > > > > Mar > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kwade at redhat.com Sat Sep 24 03:08:16 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 20:08:16 -0700 Subject: Possible Trademark Infringement? In-Reply-To: <34965.192.168.100.90.1127490614.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <34965.192.168.100.90.1127490614.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <1127531296.12820.222.camel@erato.phig.org> On Fri, 2005-09-23 at 16:50 +0100, Gavin Henry wrote: > Dear Guys, > > I was just specifying a Quantum Product, and noticed: > > http://www.quantum.com/Solutions/Compliance/Index.aspx > > In their documentation, they use it the other way round too. > > Quite similar, but you know what the bigs guys can be like. That's a new logo, eh? I've used plenty of Quantum before and that is the first time I've seen that logo. I kind of wonder if logos are not as much copying or derivative as they tend to be influenced by the zeitgeist. Like the trend about four years go for logos that were blue + green and looked like a human in motion. Suddenly, everyone had a new blue/green logo. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Sat Sep 24 09:02:04 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 12:02:04 +0300 Subject: Possible Trademark Infringement? In-Reply-To: <34965.192.168.100.90.1127490614.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> References: <34965.192.168.100.90.1127490614.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> Message-ID: <4335160C.3020808@nicubunu.ro> Gavin Henry wrote: > Dear Guys, > > I was just specifying a Quantum Product, and noticed: > > http://www.quantum.com/Solutions/Compliance/Index.aspx > > In their documentation, they use it the other way round too. > > Quite similar, but you know what the bigs guys can be like. Then I guess both Quantum and Quark (http://www.quark.com/) should sue each other into oblivion From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Sat Sep 24 16:25:27 2005 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 16:25:27 +0000 Subject: Fedora Logo I saw on ff.org Message-ID: <9fb23eef05092409253d2419dc@mail.gmail.com> I saw this really brilliant logo posted by 'sailor' on fedoraforum.org I don't remember seeing on the mailing list, so I uploaded it onto my site, and changed the size into all the standard icon sizes. If i get a vote, this one has it Sailor has done an amazing touch up of the origninal 'infinite freedom' idea http://tejas.nipl.net/fedoralogos The icons do get a bit grainy after we shrink them past 64x64, but I think that with a bit of touching up, this can be fixed. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Sat Sep 24 16:59:11 2005 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 19:59:11 +0300 Subject: Fedora Logo I saw on ff.org In-Reply-To: <9fb23eef05092409253d2419dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fb23eef05092409253d2419dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <433585DF.8010703@nicubunu.ro> Tejas Dinkar wrote: > I saw this really brilliant logo posted by 'sailor' on fedoraforum.org > > > I don't remember seeing on the mailing list, so I uploaded it onto my > site, and changed the size into all the standard icon sizes. > > If i get a vote, this one has it > > Sailor has done an amazing touch up of the origninal 'infinite freedom' idea > > http://tejas.nipl.net/fedoralogos Gray on dark blue: very low contrast, is not easy readable. You should try one with a lighter color for "f". And the fact the "8" does not have the same bevel for its entire surface does not help at all with the recognizability as the "infinity" symbol. From barzilay at redhat.com Mon Sep 26 01:51:29 2005 From: barzilay at redhat.com (David Barzilay) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 11:51:29 +1000 Subject: my logo vote Message-ID: <1127699489.5824.6.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> goes for http://tejas.nipl.net/cgi-bin/fedoralogos.py great work! cheers, -- David Barzilay Brazilian Portuguese Technical Translator Red Hat Asia-Pacific From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 00:36:16 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 20:36:16 -0400 Subject: Meeting Minutes - 2005-09-22 In-Reply-To: <4333E4CF.2000107@n-man.com> References: <4333E4CF.2000107@n-man.com> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd05092617364d929c1f@mail.gmail.com> > * SOP: Nobody stepping up. We need a volunteer to take over this one. I'll help with this. Also, I'll be back in circulation meeting-wise once this Tekelec beta is done. GA is Thursday. Sorry for my absence. Matt Frye From mattfrye at gmail.com Tue Sep 27 00:41:27 2005 From: mattfrye at gmail.com (Matt Frye) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 20:41:27 -0400 Subject: Possible Trademark Infringement? In-Reply-To: <1127531296.12820.222.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <34965.192.168.100.90.1127490614.squirrel@webmail.suretecsystems.com> <1127531296.12820.222.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <7f1eacdd050926174124a04392@mail.gmail.com> > I kind of wonder if logos are not as much copying or derivative as they > tend to be influenced by the zeitgeist. > > Like the trend about four years go for logos that were blue + green and > looked like a human in motion. Suddenly, everyone had a new blue/green > logo. This is a common trend. Recall the scores of variants on the AT&T death star logo. MPF From barzilay at redhat.com Tue Sep 27 00:55:44 2005 From: barzilay at redhat.com (David Barzilay) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 10:55:44 +1000 Subject: fp.o translation volunteer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1127782544.4672.2.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> So, when can we start? Community is eager to have a user-focused space and tools. Looking forward to hear from you. Best, -- David Barzilay Brazilian Portuguese Technical Translator Red Hat Asia-Pacific On Fri, 2005-09-23 at 03:40 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > David Barzilay has graciously agreed to serve as the guinea pig for the > first fp.o translation: into Brazilian Portuguese. > > So. Now need to decide how, exactly, we structure the translated wiki > pages. > > The simplest way: create language subsections. That would mean, for > Brazilian Portuguese: > > fp.o/wiki/Extras would be translated to fp.o/wiki/br/Extras > > It may not be the most elegant way, but it would probably get the job done > more quickly. > > I'm also open to better ideas -- but the quicker we can move, the quicker > we can take advantage of Mister Barzilay's good will. :) > > --g > > _____________________ ____________________________________________ > Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have > Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the > Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the > ] [ dumb. --mcluhan > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From nman64 at n-man.com Tue Sep 27 01:12:26 2005 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick Barnes) Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 20:12:26 -0500 Subject: fp.o translation volunteer In-Reply-To: <1127782544.4672.2.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1127782544.4672.2.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <43389C7A.60204@n-man.com> David Barzilay wrote: >So, when can we start? > >Community is eager to have a user-focused space and tools. > >Looking forward to hear from you. > >Best, >-- >David Barzilay >Brazilian Portuguese >Technical Translator >Red Hat Asia-Pacific > >On Fri, 2005-09-23 at 03:40 -0400, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > >>David Barzilay has graciously agreed to serve as the guinea pig for the >>first fp.o translation: into Brazilian Portuguese. >> >>So. Now need to decide how, exactly, we structure the translated wiki >>pages. >> >>The simplest way: create language subsections. That would mean, for >>Brazilian Portuguese: >> >> fp.o/wiki/Extras would be translated to fp.o/wiki/br/Extras >> >> Do you mean 'fp.o/wiki/pt_BR/Extras'? Shorthanding that kind of thing is risky. ;-) >>It may not be the most elegant way, but it would probably get the job done >>more quickly. >> >>I'm also open to better ideas -- but the quicker we can move, the quicker >>we can take advantage of Mister Barzilay's good will. :) >> >>--g >> >> MoinMoin does have some built-in language smarts, but I'm not sure that they would cover all of our needs, so I think the subsections may be a better idea. Translators will have to be careful in their link creation since short links won't work. (eg. 'WikiName' in pt_BR will always have to be something like '[:pt_BR/WikiName: Title]' and never simply 'WikiName'). I don't see that being a huge issue, though. As MoinMoin is currently configured, users who have their browsers set to a language other than English won't get the same FrontPage. They will get the 'FrontPage' of their native language. Virtually none of those pages have been created. The French form has, but it isn't much more than a link to the regular Extras section. Either way we go, we can use those pages to direct international users to the appropriate translations. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com www.n-man.com -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From sundaram at redhat.com Tue Sep 27 11:31:30 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:01:30 +0530 Subject: The Present and Future with Fedora Core 4: Interview Message-ID: <43392D92.80704@redhat.com> Hi Interview with book author. The questions seem written after the answer to me http://linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reviews/6014/1/ regards Rahul From pjones at redhat.com Wed Sep 28 03:29:17 2005 From: pjones at redhat.com (Peter Jones) Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2005 23:29:17 -0400 Subject: Fedora Logo I saw on ff.org In-Reply-To: <9fb23eef05092409253d2419dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <9fb23eef05092409253d2419dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1127878157.5870.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-09-24 at 16:25 +0000, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > I saw this really brilliant logo posted by 'sailor' on fedoraforum.org > > I don't remember seeing on the mailing list, so I uploaded it onto my > site, and changed the size into all the standard icon sizes. > > If i get a vote, this one has it > > Sailor has done an amazing touch up of the origninal 'infinite > freedom' idea > > http://tejas.nipl.net/fedoralogos > > The icons do get a bit grainy after we shrink them past 64x64, but I > think that with a bit of touching up, this can be fixed. 3D logos just aren't the way. There's too much going on in them, and they look significantly different when you change the format -- to greyscale, for one example. -- Peter From byte at aeon.com.my Thu Sep 29 13:43:05 2005 From: byte at aeon.com.my (Colin Charles) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 23:43:05 +1000 Subject: AWOL this week Message-ID: <1128001385.4343.972.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> There's a meeting later today, but I'll be awol. I have just had to leave at this moment. Greg or Patrick can write notes. See you next week -- Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 29 13:57:42 2005 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:57:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AWOL this week In-Reply-To: <1128001385.4343.972.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> References: <1128001385.4343.972.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: My regrets, gentlemen; the Red Hat company meeting is at the same time. And next Thursday is FUDCon London, so I'll be rejoining when I can. --g _____________________ ____________________________________________ Greg DeKoenigsberg ] [ the future masters of technology will have Community Relations ] [ to be lighthearted and intelligent. the Red Hat ] [ machine easily masters the grim and the ] [ dumb. --mcluhan On Thu, 29 Sep 2005, Colin Charles wrote: > There's a meeting later today, but I'll be awol. I have just had to > leave at this moment. Greg or Patrick can write notes. See you next week > -- > Colin Charles, http://www.bytebot.net/ > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From kwade at redhat.com Thu Sep 29 16:31:44 2005 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2005 09:31:44 -0700 Subject: fp.o translation volunteer In-Reply-To: <43389C7A.60204@n-man.com> References: <1127782544.4672.2.camel@maxwell.brisbane.redhat.com> <43389C7A.60204@n-man.com> Message-ID: <1128011504.31300.37.camel@erato.phig.org> On Mon, 2005-09-26 at 20:12 -0500, Patrick Barnes wrote: > Do you mean 'fp.o/wiki/pt_BR/Extras'? Shorthanding that kind of thing > is risky. ;-) Whilst looking around, I recommend staying away from wiki/Docs/Drafts and Docs/Beats/, content is too raw. When there is something in wiki/Docs that is not a draft or shifting beat content, feel free to translate. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE * Sr. Tech Writer * http://people.redhat.com/kwade/ gpg fingerprint: 2680 DBFD D968 3141 0115 5F1B D992 0E06 AD0E 0C41 Red Hat SELinux Guide http://www.redhat.com/docs/manuals/enterprise/RHEL-4-Manual/selinux-guide/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From danes16 at ya.com Thu Sep 29 22:31:21 2005 From: danes16 at ya.com (M Daniel R M) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 00:31:21 +0200 Subject: Fedora Logo I saw on ff.org In-Reply-To: <1127878157.5870.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <9fb23eef05092409253d2419dc@mail.gmail.com> <1127878157.5870.24.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1128033081.19657.70.camel@localhost.localdomain> El mar, 27-09-2005 a las 23:29 -0400, Peter Jones escribi?: > > If i get a vote, this one has it > > > > Sailor has done an amazing touch up of the origninal 'infinite > > freedom' idea > > > > http://tejas.nipl.net/fedoralogos > > > > The icons do get a bit grainy after we shrink them past 64x64, but I > > think that with a bit of touching up, this can be fixed. > > 3D logos just aren't the way. There's too much going on in them, and > they look significantly different when you change the format -- to > greyscale, for one example. > Hi list; Just browsing through the fedora wiki pages, ran into the "logo project" arousing my curiosity. Just to say I don't like that set of logos, sorry. Just an opinion, if this is essentially a question of tastes among other technical/marketing considerations.. I'm not a designer, artist, etc... but IMHO that image just suggests me the opposite idea of something "in freedom", agility, opened, "in progress", etc... BUT something hermetic, raw, closed, heavy, etc...; 3D lines there seems to me pipes, then they remember to me a "semi industrial" theme, so in some way (summed to that combination of colours in particular...) something "dirty". In order to give an aproximated idea of my tastes considering known logos, I'd say: Debian's is very nice. Simple, original and eternal through the ages, dynamic, etc..that truly gives me the idea of infinity, dynamism, ... Ubuntu's a bit colder, "scientific", but I think it's also ok, the basic idea is strong. Suse's sorry but I don't see anything on it, it does not transmit me anything apart from a relaxing green colour. Gentoo's is simply direct,original in some way, just distinctive, a bit pleasant. Mandriva's sorry... too much simpleness, no original at all. Redhat's I suppose it was cool some time ago, still unique, distinctive, attractive, without becoming a old-fashioned logo...,but it does not support "the pass of the times" as good as others. Other examples of well-known logos a)I like: php, k3b, bluefish,... b)Just OK: lyx, apache, mysql, ... c)Don't like very much: there are several but not many... Regards From jfautley at redhat.com Fri Sep 30 11:22:06 2005 From: jfautley at redhat.com (Jon Fautley) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 12:22:06 +0100 Subject: AWOL this week In-Reply-To: References: <1128001385.4343.972.camel@potter.soho.bytebot.net> Message-ID: <433D1FDE.4030507@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > My regrets, gentlemen; the Red Hat company meeting is at the same time. > And next Thursday is FUDCon London, so I'll be rejoining when I can. Same goes for me, too... Jon -- Jon Fautley direct: +44 1483 739615 Presales Technical Consultant office: +44 1483 300169 Red Hat UK mobile: +44 7841 558683 10 Alan Turing Road, Surrey Research Park, Guildford GU2 7YF From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Sep 30 14:30:45 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 20:00:45 +0530 Subject: Fedora based distributions: An overview Message-ID: <433D4C15.9060109@redhat.com> Hi There is a recent effort being made as part of the Fedora marketing team to create a list of Fedora based distributions which includes the project links, package listing, contact details etc classified into several groups based on their functionality. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DerivedDistributions I had committed to sending a mail with my ideas on this a few meeting back and you got it now. I would like to invite more volunteers to participate on this effort and send in your feedback.f The numbers game The number of Linux distributions continue to explode in a phenomenal rate. There are 345 active distributions at present not counting 64 discontinued efforts. A large number of them are however derivatives based on other distributions, in particular Red Hat Linux/Fedora and Debian. The ones that are build from scratch are much lower at 28. Factoring in distributions that were originally based on some distributions but have evolved into independent ones we can put the numbers at approximately 35. Fedora Derivatives Fedora is the second highest base for a large number of distributions right after Debian. There is a impressive 63 distributions based on Fedora and 13 others based on Red Hat Enterprise Linux which itself is based on Fedora. I havent counted Mandriva and others which are now far apart from their lineage. That puts the final count as 76. Source: http://distrowatch.com Classification of Derivatives There are a fair number of reasons to create new distributions and derivatives help you reach there better if you choose a appropriate base depending on the requirements. Some major categories include the following: * Live CD's: These is potentially the biggest group and they provide value as rescue cds, demonstrations and technology showcases etc * Regional: These include GUI and docs in their native language, locale information with potentially more utilities for input methods and changes to accommodate hardware in that particular region * Niche groups: New technology, product demonstrations etc that appeal to a limit audience like terminal servers and low end hardware. These might eventually evolve into a mainstream technology or product * Package mix: Changes in default set of packages, branding and other specific targets like games or edutainment software. * Commercial offshoots: Productizing a distribution appeals to many groups and for several different uncategorized reasons Collaboration Fedora as a project provides ample opportunity for such derivatives to collaborate with each other and with Fedora itself. As an example, the Live CD distributions can base themselves off Kadischi, Fedora's Live CD generation tool and contribute towards improving it helping themselves in the process. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LiveCD Agenda items could include the following * Contact and discuss areas and projects where we can have a win-win arrangement * Provide templates for new project proposals and sub groups within Fedora. Provide webspace, cvs access, mailing lists, bandwidth and publicity for such projects wherever appropriate * Make it easier to create derivatives and branding. Fedora potentially benefits from being a base for different people to explore different areas Let me know your thoughts regards Rahul From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Fri Sep 30 22:30:10 2005 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 22:30:10 +0000 Subject: Fedora based distributions: An overview In-Reply-To: <433D4C15.9060109@redhat.com> References: <433D4C15.9060109@redhat.com> Message-ID: <433DBC72.5060406@gmail.com> > * Live CD's: These is potentially the biggest group and they provide > value as rescue cds, demonstrations and technology showcases etc > > * Regional: These include GUI and docs in their native language, > locale information with potentially more utilities for input methods > and changes to accommodate hardware in that particular region > > * Niche groups: New technology, product demonstrations etc that appeal > to a limit audience like terminal servers and low end hardware. These > might eventually evolve into a mainstream technology or product > > * Package mix: Changes in default set of packages, branding and other > specific targets like games or edutainment software. > > * Commercial offshoots: Productizing a distribution appeals to many > groups and for several different uncategorized reasons > You forgot rescue CDs. I remember seeing at least one cd that is for use when you mess up your FC install From sundaram at redhat.com Fri Sep 30 17:03:29 2005 From: sundaram at redhat.com (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 22:33:29 +0530 Subject: Fedora based distributions: An overview In-Reply-To: <433DBC72.5060406@gmail.com> References: <433D4C15.9060109@redhat.com> <433DBC72.5060406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <433D6FE1.3090200@redhat.com> Tejas Dinkar wrote: > >> * Live CD's: These is potentially the biggest group and they provide >> value as rescue cds, demonstrations and technology showcases etc >> >> * Regional: These include GUI and docs in their native language, >> locale information with potentially more utilities for input methods >> and changes to accommodate hardware in that particular region >> >> * Niche groups: New technology, product demonstrations etc that >> appeal to a limit audience like terminal servers and low end >> hardware. These might eventually evolve into a mainstream technology >> or product >> >> * Package mix: Changes in default set of packages, branding and other >> specific targets like games or edutainment software. >> >> * Commercial offshoots: Productizing a distribution appeals to many >> groups and for several different uncategorized reasons >> > You forgot rescue CDs. I remember seeing at least one cd that is for > use when you mess up your FC install > Mentioned under the Live CD's category. regards Rahul