From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 1 13:32:33 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 19:02:33 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora seeks women developers Message-ID: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> Hi A rather narrow interpretation and IMO misleading opinion on what the project aims. We are trying to bring out the already existing community to encourage the awareness and the community is not limited to developers or coders at all. Patrick, you might want to send a response back. http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39280223,00.htm Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 1 13:41:55 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 09:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora seeks women developers In-Reply-To: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> References: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Rahul wrote: > Hi > > A rather narrow interpretation and IMO misleading opinion on what the > project aims. We are trying to bring out the already existing community > to encourage the awareness and the community is not limited to > developers or coders at all. Patrick, you might want to send a response > back. > > http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39280223,00.htm We leave ourselves open to misinterpretation when we launch a project with vague goals, and then announce it to the world. Still, I'm of the mind that any press is good press. Now we need to figure out how to capitalize on it. Having an actual *woman* speaking on behalf of Fedora Women might be a good start, in fact. And if we can't find a woman who's willing to do it... well, that indicates another problem, doesn't it? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From duffy at redhat.com Tue Aug 1 14:09:08 2006 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:09:08 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora seeks women developers In-Reply-To: References: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <2428C4CD-296B-4E91-A133-B8564B1D6564@redhat.com> On Aug 1, 2006, at 9:41 AM, Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Rahul wrote: > >> Hi >> >> A rather narrow interpretation and IMO misleading opinion on what the >> project aims. We are trying to bring out the already existing >> community >> to encourage the awareness and the community is not limited to >> developers or coders at all. Patrick, you might want to send a >> response >> back. >> >> http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39280223,00.htm > > We leave ourselves open to misinterpretation when we launch a > project with > vague goals, and then announce it to the world. > > Still, I'm of the mind that any press is good press. Now we need to > figure out how to capitalize on it. > > Having an actual *woman* speaking on behalf of Fedora Women might be a > good start, in fact. And if we can't find a woman who's willing to do > it... well, that indicates another problem, doesn't it? I would be willing to do it, who should I talk to? Should we discuss this on the fedora-women-list; maybe some of the other women on the list would be like to say something in response as well? ~m From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 1 14:15:05 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora seeks women developers In-Reply-To: <2428C4CD-296B-4E91-A133-B8564B1D6564@redhat.com> References: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> <2428C4CD-296B-4E91-A133-B8564B1D6564@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, [ISO-8859-1] M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > > Having an actual *woman* speaking on behalf of Fedora Women might be a > > good start, in fact. And if we can't find a woman who's willing to do > > it... well, that indicates another problem, doesn't it? > > I would be willing to do it, who should I talk to? > > Should we discuss this on the fedora-women-list; maybe some of the > other women on the list would be like to say something in response as > well? Sounds like a good idea. Maybe some discussion on the fedora-women-list would be a good thing for two reasons. One, women actually determine the purpose of the group; and two, we can point to actual discourse. Because when I saw the Slashdot article, I immediately went to the list to see what had been happening, and it wasn't much. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 1 14:21:13 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 19:51:13 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora seeks women developers In-Reply-To: References: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <44CF6359.3000009@fedoraproject.org> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Rahul wrote: > >> Hi >> >> A rather narrow interpretation and IMO misleading opinion on what the >> project aims. We are trying to bring out the already existing community >> to encourage the awareness and the community is not limited to >> developers or coders at all. Patrick, you might want to send a response >> back. >> >> http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39280223,00.htm > > We leave ourselves open to misinterpretation when we launch a project with > vague goals, and then announce it to the world. > Now would be a good time to note that this wasnt actually discussed before being announced afaik. Rahul From gdk at redhat.com Tue Aug 1 14:28:37 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 10:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora seeks women developers In-Reply-To: <44CF6359.3000009@fedoraproject.org> References: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> <44CF6359.3000009@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Rahul wrote: > Now would be a good time to note that this wasnt actually discussed > before being announced afaik. Heh. Yeah, we know that, but to the world that's reporting on it, it's irrelevant. :) This is one of those things where someone took the initiative to make something happen. Good. That's what people are supposed to do. Of course, when my wife asked me "why is a dude announcing this?" it was a little tricky for me to answer. So anyway -- a couple of practical questions: 1. Who's the maintainer of the fedora-women-list? Is it a woman, and if not, can we make it a woman? 2. How many people have joined the list since the announcement was made? --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From duffy at redhat.com Tue Aug 1 14:37:24 2006 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?M=E1ir=EDn_Duffy?=) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 10:37:24 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora seeks women developers In-Reply-To: References: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> <44CF6359.3000009@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <44CF6724.9050601@redhat.com> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > So anyway -- a couple of practical questions: > > 1. Who's the maintainer of the fedora-women-list? Is it a woman, and if > not, can we make it a woman? I believe Patrick is. I wouldn't mind taking over. > 2. How many people have joined the list since the announcement was made? Since the list started, six women have posted introductions (Karlie, Jeanette, Sasikala, Anne, Tracy, and myself.) On top of that I'm sure Runa is a member, so there's seven women on the least at a minimum (I don't have access to the membership list so there could be more lurking.) ~m From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Tue Aug 1 15:55:04 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 21:25:04 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora seeks women developers In-Reply-To: <44CF6724.9050601@redhat.com> References: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> <44CF6359.3000009@fedoraproject.org> <44CF6724.9050601@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1154447704.14969.0.camel@dragon.gja.in> On Tue, 2006-08-01 at 10:37 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > So anyway -- a couple of practical questions: > > > > 1. Who's the maintainer of the fedora-women-list? Is it a woman, and if > > not, can we make it a woman? > > I believe Patrick is. I wouldn't mind taking over. > > > 2. How many people have joined the list since the announcement was made? > > Since the list started, six women have posted introductions (Karlie, > Jeanette, Sasikala, Anne, Tracy, and myself.) On top of that I'm sure > Runa is a member, so there's seven women on the least at a minimum (I > don't have access to the membership list so there could be more lurking.) What happened to Ms Maier in all this? From lxmaier at gmail.com Tue Aug 1 17:49:14 2006 From: lxmaier at gmail.com (Alex Maier) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:49:14 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora seeks women developers In-Reply-To: <1154447704.14969.0.camel@dragon.gja.in> References: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> <44CF6359.3000009@fedoraproject.org> <44CF6724.9050601@redhat.com> <1154447704.14969.0.camel@dragon.gja.in> Message-ID: <7f617d270608011049i1b9c752fq86093865074c6753@mail.gmail.com> On 8/1/06, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > What happened to Ms Maier in all this? Ms Maier has offered no comment. -- Open Video Contest Powered by Creative Commons and Fedora Project http://creativecommons.org/video/openvideocontest/ From nman64 at n-man.com Tue Aug 1 18:38:55 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:38:55 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora seeks women developers In-Reply-To: <44CF6724.9050601@redhat.com> References: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> <44CF6724.9050601@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200608011338.59063.nman64@n-man.com> On Tuesday 01 August 2006 09:37, M?ir?n Duffy wrote: > Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > > So anyway -- a couple of practical questions: > > > > 1. Who's the maintainer of the fedora-women-list? Is it a woman, and if > > not, can we make it a woman? > > I believe Patrick is. I wouldn't mind taking over. > > > 2. How many people have joined the list since the announcement was made? > > Since the list started, six women have posted introductions (Karlie, > Jeanette, Sasikala, Anne, Tracy, and myself.) On top of that I'm sure > Runa is a member, so there's seven women on the least at a minimum (I > don't have access to the membership list so there could be more lurking.) > I've added M?ir?n as a list administrator alongside myself and Max. There are currently 34 list members. Slashdot seems to have only led to a handful of joins. Most of the members joined following the announcement to fedora-announce-list. My part in this program arose only because I was better able to get it up and running than Runa or a few of the other women that had expressed interest in the idea. I'm crunched for time right now, but I'll be addressing this thread more later. -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fedora-marketing at ddeutsch.net Tue Aug 1 20:47:43 2006 From: fedora-marketing at ddeutsch.net (Debbie Deutsch) Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:47:43 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora seeks women developers In-Reply-To: References: <44CF57F1.9080000@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <44CFBDEF.2010704@ddeutsch.net> Greg DeKoenigsberg wrote: > On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Rahul wrote: > >> Hi >> >> A rather narrow interpretation and IMO misleading opinion on what the >> project aims. We are trying to bring out the already existing community >> to encourage the awareness and the community is not limited to >> developers or coders at all. Patrick, you might want to send a response >> back. >> >> http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/developer/0,39020387,39280223,00.htm > > We leave ourselves open to misinterpretation when we launch a project with > vague goals, and then announce it to the world. > > Still, I'm of the mind that any press is good press. Now we need to > figure out how to capitalize on it. > > Having an actual *woman* speaking on behalf of Fedora Women might be a > good start, in fact. And if we can't find a woman who's willing to do > it... well, that indicates another problem, doesn't it? > > --g > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org > Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list Heh. Not all women think the same way about this kind of thing. Some of us think it's good to have a list such as the new one. Some think it's a bad idea. Some don't want to participate personally but feel that other women might. So, how can one woman speak on behalf of all women who contribute to Fedora? Just speaking for myself, having attended a then overwhelmingly male technical school, and worked for the past 30 years in an overwhelmingly male industry, I know very well what it's like to be a woman in an predominantly male environment, doing things that are stereotyped as "male". It can be isolating. It can be uncomfortable at times. What should a woman do when she is there and trying but not part of what is going on? What should a woman do when a (probably well-meaning) man says something based on an assumption about women that he may not even know he has? Speak up and sound like a whiner? Stay quiet and know that it will happen again? There are no good and easy answers. Just to be clear, in my case I have been able to breach the barriers, but that can be a lot of work and may not always be worth it. It all depends on the situation and the specific woman's priorities and sensibilities. The bottom line is - discussion of the general topic of mailinglists for female members of majority male communities can get complex, - in our specific case the article's writer got it wrong, and - yes, there should be a response, but it doesn't have to be anything more than a correction. Having a guy write the correction is fine; maybe even better than a woman doing it. That underlines the fact that the list is an integral part of the entire Fedora community, not just a thing that women are doing off in some separate corner. Women are part of the community... that's the message, n'est-ce pas? Debbie P.S. Yeah I mostly lurk. One day I will have time to do more! At least that's the goal. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 1 22:40:23 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 04:10:23 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora wants to draw in women Message-ID: <44CFD857.6000503@fedoraproject.org> Hi Now this is closer than a earlier report http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6100569.html Rahul From nman64 at n-man.com Wed Aug 2 06:20:00 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 01:20:00 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora wants to draw in women In-Reply-To: <44CFD857.6000503@fedoraproject.org> References: <44CFD857.6000503@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <200608020120.04064.nman64@n-man.com> On Tuesday 01 August 2006 17:40, Rahul wrote: > Hi > > Now this is closer than a earlier report > > http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6100569.html > This one is less specific to Fedora but was inspired by it. http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6100569.html -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 2 15:32:09 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006 21:02:09 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora wants to draw in women In-Reply-To: <200608020120.04064.nman64@n-man.com> References: <44CFD857.6000503@fedoraproject.org> <200608020120.04064.nman64@n-man.com> Message-ID: <44D0C579.5030104@fedoraproject.org> Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > On Tuesday 01 August 2006 17:40, Rahul wrote: >> Hi >> >> Now this is closer than a earlier report >> >> http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6100569.html >> > > This one is less specific to Fedora but was inspired by it. > > http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6100569.html > Seems the exact same link. Copy and paste goofup? Rahul From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Aug 2 18:10:40 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 14:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] fedora slashdot interview Message-ID: also posted to fedora-advisory-board, this is just an FYI for this list. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 14:09:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Max Spevack To: fedora-advisory-board at redhat.com Subject: fedora slashdot interview So after seeing today's /. story that had quite a few comments about Fedora/RH, I pinged the guys over there to see if they would be interested in doing an interview directly -- try to get a fresh perspective about what's going on in the Fedora world. What follows is the last email in our thread so far, and it looks like it's going to happen next week, unless something holds it up. I fully intend to have all of the answers come directly out of my fingers (no corporate-speak, etc.) but I'm sure that the questions which are posted will generate some discussion here. Nothing more to add now -- let's just wait until it actually happens. This is just a heads up. --Max ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2006 14:03:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Max Spevack To: Robin 'Roblimo' Miller Cc: malda at slashdot.org, scuttlemonkey at slashdot.org Subject: Re: Fedora interview on Slashdot? On Wed, 2 Aug 2006, Robin 'Roblimo' Miller wrote: > Shall we put up the "call for questions" Monday? Do you have a bio page > or other link we should reference in that post? That sounds great. Fedora's home is fedoraproject.org (for linking purposes), and the best page about me for bio purposes is found there. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MaxSpevack Couple quick questions for you: 1. Do you do any editing of the answers, or just post them directly? I'm assuming the latter, which is what I'm hoping for. 2. I would be appreciative if you would use the Fedora logo either instead of or alongside Shadowman in the article summary. I've attached an image that you should be able to modify/use without too much trouble. 3. fedora.redhat.com is deprecated, and we are working hard to transition away from that URL. So if you would be kind enough to use fedoraproject.org in your links, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks, looking forward to the interview. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MaxSpevack + gpg key -- http://spevack.org/max.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From nman64 at n-man.com Thu Aug 3 05:22:35 2006 From: nman64 at n-man.com (Patrick W. Barnes) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 00:22:35 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora wants to draw in women In-Reply-To: <44D0C579.5030104@fedoraproject.org> References: <44CFD857.6000503@fedoraproject.org> <200608020120.04064.nman64@n-man.com> <44D0C579.5030104@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <200608030022.40358.nman64@n-man.com> On Wednesday 02 August 2006 10:32, Rahul wrote: > Patrick W. Barnes wrote: > > On Tuesday 01 August 2006 17:40, Rahul wrote: > >> Hi > >> > >> Now this is closer than a earlier report > >> > >> http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6100569.html > > > > This one is less specific to Fedora but was inspired by it. > > > > http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6100569.html > > Seems the exact same link. Copy and paste goofup? > Seems so. Let me try again... :-) http://comment.zdnet.co.uk/other/0,39020682,39280281,00.htm -- Patrick "The N-Man" Barnes nman64 at n-man.com http://www.n-man.com/ LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/nman64 Have I been helpful? Rate my assistance! http://rate.affero.net/nman64/ -- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 3 14:23:24 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 19:53:24 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] What Is Fedora's Prime Directive? Message-ID: <44D206DC.906@fedoraproject.org> Hi We are currently having a board discussion on how we handle updates better. I would like to respond to this article after that we some concrete decisions in place. Meanwhile comments are welcome. http://blog.eweek.com/blogs/eweek_labs/archive/2006/08/02/12050.aspx Rahul From jpmahowald at gmail.com Thu Aug 3 18:25:42 2006 From: jpmahowald at gmail.com (John Mahowald) Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:25:42 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] What Is Fedora's Prime Directive? In-Reply-To: <44D206DC.906@fedoraproject.org> References: <44D206DC.906@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <3ea997540608031125p7d072cf3n7b656dc71e237d42@mail.gmail.com> On 8/3/06, Rahul wrote: > Hi > > > > We are currently having a board discussion on how we handle updates > better. I would like to respond to this article after that we some > concrete decisions in place. Meanwhile comments are welcome. > > http://blog.eweek.com/blogs/eweek_labs/archive/2006/08/02/12050.aspx > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > A thought-provoking opinion. My response: Fedora users are free to use whatever software they like, including proprietary software. This necessarily will involve some hassle when Fedora ships 100% open source. I can see how the break proprietary video drivers with an update is inconvenient. However, holding back 7.1 is about the only thing that Fedora can do, and that holds the update schedule back. To get the latest and greatest upstream we can't wait for proprietary vendors all the time. The impression of not caring is reinforced when you emphasize that you are on your own with regards to proprietary drivers. I personally use those proprietary drivers on occasion, and I am resigned to them not working when certain update occur. Which is unfortunate. What I really wish would be for nVidia to follow xorg updates as closely as Fedora does, but I doubt they will do that. I would like a better definition of "stands on its own". Without Red Hat infrastructure, engineers, and leadership there would be no Fedora Project. Yes the goal is for community partnership, which has been a slow process so far. Yet I would argue that Red Hat having a corporate interest in the project drives innovation. As to a "cloud hanging over it", I don't get the impression that there is some malicious agenda. What's Red Hat going to do, take all Fedora and make it proprietary? Won't happen, it's open. Even with RHEL you can get the source of that and rebuild it, as CentOS did. The Prime Directive? Whatever you want it to be. The goal is for as many people as possible to take and use Fedora as they wish. The project also is in some respects a meritocracy, like other open source projects. Red Hat controls it by working on it. If, say, IBM were to have several hundred engineers work on Fedora they would probably gain similar control. As to the desktop Linux world, if it's good and open source we want it in Fedora somehow. Beagle desktop search is in Fedora due to mono being developed elsewhere. I also have seen people run Novell's new main menu on Fedora (which I hope to see in Extras sometime). As to CentOS stealing Fedora's purpose, CentOS would't be there without RHEL, and RHEL is based off of Fedora. I don't see this is stealing purpose, I see it as an inexpensive alternative to those who want the slower schedule of RHEL without the costs. Often this is for servers. Fedora workstations and CentOS servers make a powerful, and no cost, combo. There were significant logistical problems to a Fedora Foundation, as has been discussed at length before. I don't view it as Red Hat aborting attempts to give up control, rather their level of support didn't fit in to the standard non profit system. And as far as I can tell OpenSUSE doesn't have a foundation either. I can see how some don't like that Red Hat would profit though their Fedora contributions via RHEL. It pays the project's bills, however. And I have no problem with them contributing to a non profit organized distribution if that's what they want. Especially if everybody is contributing stuff back to the open source community. In short, Fedora is a 100% open source project that moves rapidly to bring innovative software to people. Indirectly, some of those people are Red Hat's paying customers. Due to this, proprietary video drivers among other things regrettably make things harder for end users. And there is some confusion as to what Fedora is about because it is different things for different people, compared to Ubuntu which is commonly thought of as a desktop. Throughout all this your freedom to take Fedora where you want remains secure. From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 4 00:19:41 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 05:49:41 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] What Is Fedora's Prime Directive? In-Reply-To: <3ea997540608031125p7d072cf3n7b656dc71e237d42@mail.gmail.com> References: <44D206DC.906@fedoraproject.org> <3ea997540608031125p7d072cf3n7b656dc71e237d42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D2929D.2050705@fedoraproject.org> [Just a few quick notes] > > A thought-provoking opinion. > > My response: > > Fedora users are free to use whatever software they like, including > proprietary software. This necessarily will involve some hassle when > Fedora ships 100% open source. I can see how the break proprietary > video drivers with an update is inconvenient. However, holding back > 7.1 is about the only thing that Fedora can do, and that holds the > update schedule back. Not necessarily. With appropriate packaging, third party drivers can depend on older version of Xorg and we wont be breaking any systems at all. Besides packages are currently designed to fall back on the open source driver if a appropriate binary only driver is not present. If the user downloads the driver from the nvidia site directly, they might run into problems but we already advise users not to do that in our release notes. > As to the desktop Linux world, if it's good and open source we want it > in Fedora somehow. Beagle desktop search is in Fedora due to mono > being developed elsewhere. I also have seen people run Novell's new > main menu on Fedora (which I hope to see in Extras sometime). That Red Hat ships code from the "competition" or vice versa is not news at all in the open source world. We are not having a dog chases cat war here. We all benefit from the cross vendor and community pollination. I have personally pushed for the Novell Slab menu applet to be included in Fedora with our own modifications to integrate into Fedora tools etc in a better way and I am using the package in review in FC5 for sometime now. There is some nice work being done here. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2006-July/msg00515.html https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=199681 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=200863 Rahul From toshio at tiki-lounge.com Fri Aug 4 16:09:24 2006 From: toshio at tiki-lounge.com (Toshio Kuratomi) Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 09:09:24 -0700 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fwd: A call looking for volunteers at the Linux World Installfest (sponsored by Open Country) Message-ID: <1154707765.4373.38.camel@localhost> Is this of any interest to us? -Toshio ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Paul Cubbage Date: Aug 3, 2006 11:07 PM Subject: [Lug-nuts] A call looking for volunteers at the Linux World Installfest (sponsored by Open Country) To: SVLUG , bad at bad.debian.net, PenLUG Members , baylisa , Sac Lug Hi all, Due to (lucky) late breaking events, Open Country will be sponsoring the Installfest at Linux World. We are asking local LUGs, free software organizations, and interested parties, to participate. Given the variety of distros systems and the many odd issues to deal with, we need your help, expertise, ISO's, CDs and booth time! Rewards are spiritual! plus fun, swag, parties, mondo geeking, chocolate, networking... Other vendors may participate with systems and software. Stay tuned. If you are on the list of an organization whose members might be interested, please forward this email. Any direct contacts with distro vendors would be a great help. Please contact me if you are interested! Thanks! Paul Cubbage Evangelist Open Country, Inc. _______________________________________________ roselug mailing list roselug at rosevillelug.org http://roselug.org/list/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From splinux at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 6 16:20:04 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 18:20:04 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? Message-ID: Hello everyone, Fedora usability was born but it's not official yet;-) : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability What's fedora Usability? The Fedora Usability project aims to provide coherence, accessibility and intuivity for all people using Fedora Core and its associated resources. Fedora must be easy and making things simple and coherent for a pleasant use is my objectif with this project. I need feedback, if you're interested to contribute feel free to add your name in the usability group : http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability/UsabilityGroup Once this project completed and approved by you, I'll move the wiki pages and will send an official announce ;-) Thanks in advance Damien Durand -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Sun Aug 6 22:39:12 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 14:39:12 -0800 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <604aa7910608061539w2908edbdyf8f8de4bbb389c5d@mail.gmail.com> On 8/6/06, Damien Durand wrote: > I need feedback, if you're interested to contribute feel free to add your > name in the usability group : > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability/UsabilityGroup I STRONGLY suggest that you make a sincere and very comprehensive effort to touch base with the people working on the upstream desktop usability level. I honestly do not see how a fedora centric project is going to work inside the framework of the decisions which are being made upstream inside the desktop projects. Striking out on your own to "fix" usability inside fedora without understanding how the desktop usability decisions impact the fedora experience, is going to do very little but become an ultimately frustrating and fruitless waste of time for you.. unless there is very clearly defined relationship between what the fedora centric group is doing to support the usability vision of the upstream desktop projects and how the fedora centric work is moved upstream. There are very few "right" answers in usability in the limit of a large population. You need to make damn sure that your vision for Fedora usability works inside the upstream vision for the desktop project you are looking to impact. The very very last thing you want to do is have Fedora specific usability changes to be stuck as fedora specific patches. Tie you mission statement to specific "deliverables" that the desktop projects are looking for help with upstream. -jef"all this talk about "Fedora human users" is sooooo egotistically human. You want to be ahead of the curve... think dophins.. or dophin human hybrids."spaleta From steven at easytec.com.hk Mon Aug 7 00:53:48 2006 From: steven at easytec.com.hk (Steven James Drinnan) Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 08:53:48 +0800 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Good on you Damien. I am all for a project that can give users a method of suggesting improvements that can be filtered and then sent on to he necessary teams for implementation. The development teams should not be hassled by a lot request changes. In saying this if there is already a method that I am not aware of then the existing process should be used or if necessary modified so that good customer feed back is achieved. My experience with linux is limited but I do know the importance of good usability of a computer program - if people can not intuitively figure out how do something then that is a problem - 1 area is networking -though a lot of improvements have been made there is still a lot of bugs - (eg on my laptop sometimes the eth0 and eth1 (wired and wirless) get transposed or network manager decides to create a new ethernet device- there are a few other issues but not the time here. We are humans after all not dolphins. We all think in a particular way. And need to make operations more smother. One good example is Add remove programs and Software Updater We have a great product. That needs promoting and user feed back. There are few ideas i have but i would like to stress, lets not reinvent the wheel, if there is a system in place lets use it to its full potential. Anyway just my 2 cents worth On Sun, 2006-08-06 at 18:20 +0200, Damien Durand wrote: > Hello everyone, > > Fedora usability was born but it's not official yet;-) : > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability > > What's fedora Usability? > > The Fedora Usability project aims to provide coherence, accessibility > and intuivity for all people using Fedora Core and its associated > resources. Fedora must be easy and making things simple and coherent > for a pleasant use is my objectif with this project. > > I need feedback, if you're interested to contribute feel free to add > your name in the usability group : > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability/UsabilityGroup > > Once this project completed and approved by you, I'll move the wiki > pages and will send an official announce ;-) > > Thanks in advance > > Damien Durand > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list From gdk at redhat.com Mon Aug 7 03:17:24 2006 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg DeKoenigsberg) Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 23:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910608061539w2908edbdyf8f8de4bbb389c5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910608061539w2908edbdyf8f8de4bbb389c5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Aug 2006, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/6/06, Damien Durand wrote: > > I need feedback, if you're interested to contribute feel free to add your > > name in the usability group : > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability/UsabilityGroup > > I STRONGLY suggest that you make a sincere and very comprehensive > effort to touch base with the people working on the upstream desktop > usability level. I honestly do not see how a fedora centric project > is going to work inside the framework of the decisions which are being > made upstream inside the desktop projects. Striking out on your own to > "fix" usability inside fedora without understanding how the desktop > usability decisions impact the fedora experience, is going to do very > little but become an ultimately frustrating and fruitless waste of > time for you.. unless there is very clearly defined relationship > between what the fedora centric group is doing to support the > usability vision of the upstream desktop projects and how the fedora > centric work is moved upstream. There are very few "right" answers in > usability in the limit of a large population. You need to make damn > sure that your vision for Fedora usability works inside the upstream > vision for the desktop project you are looking to impact. The very > very last thing you want to do is have Fedora specific usability > changes to be stuck as fedora specific patches. Tie you mission > statement to specific "deliverables" that the desktop projects are > looking for help with upstream. A big +1 from over here. --g ------------------------------------------------------------- Greg DeKoenigsberg || Fedora Project || fedoraproject.org Be an Ambassador || http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors ------------------------------------------------------------- From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 11:10:45 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 07:10:45 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910608061539w2908edbdyf8f8de4bbb389c5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <604aa7910608061539w2908edbdyf8f8de4bbb389c5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1155035446.6135.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-08-06 at 14:39 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/6/06, Damien Durand wrote: > > I need feedback, if you're interested to contribute feel free to add your > > name in the usability group : > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DamienDurand/Usability/UsabilityGroup > > I STRONGLY suggest that you make a sincere and very comprehensive > effort to touch base with the people working on the upstream desktop > usability level. I honestly do not see how a fedora centric project > is going to work inside the framework of the decisions which are being > made upstream inside the desktop projects. Striking out on your own to > "fix" usability inside fedora without understanding how the desktop > usability decisions impact the fedora experience, is going to do very > little but become an ultimately frustrating and fruitless waste of > time for you.. unless there is very clearly defined relationship > between what the fedora centric group is doing to support the > usability vision of the upstream desktop projects and how the fedora > centric work is moved upstream. There are very few "right" answers in > usability in the limit of a large population. You need to make damn > sure that your vision for Fedora usability works inside the upstream > vision for the desktop project you are looking to impact. The very > very last thing you want to do is have Fedora specific usability > changes to be stuck as fedora specific patches. Tie you mission > statement to specific "deliverables" that the desktop projects are > looking for help with upstream. +1 from where I sit. I don't see what this project plan accomplishes that can't be solved by (1) working with upstream, and (2) filing bugs or working through the existing Triage. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 11:14:00 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 07:14:00 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-08-07 at 08:53 +0800, Steven James Drinnan wrote: > My experience with linux is limited but I do know the importance of good > usability of a computer program - if people can not intuitively figure > out how do something then that is a problem - 1 area is networking > -though a lot of improvements have been made there is still a lot of > bugs - (eg on my laptop sometimes the eth0 and eth1 (wired and wirless) > get transposed or network manager decides to create a new ethernet > device- there are a few other issues but not the time here. > > We are humans after all not dolphins. We all think in a particular way. > And need to make operations more smother. One good example is Add remove > programs and Software Updater Have you filed bugs? > We have a great product. That needs promoting and user feed back. The first is what Marketing is for. The second is what Bugzilla is for. > There are few ideas i have but i would like to stress, lets not reinvent > the wheel, if there is a system in place lets use it to its full > potential. Right on! -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From splinux at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 8 11:46:11 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 13:46:11 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Well, this project is now official, please use the fedora-desktop list to speak about it or join #fedora-usability channel. I'm sorry for this but it is to avoid the multiplication of malls on different list. Thanks in advance Damien Durand 2006/8/8, Paul W. Frields : > > On Mon, 2006-08-07 at 08:53 +0800, Steven James Drinnan wrote: > > My experience with linux is limited but I do know the importance of good > > usability of a computer program - if people can not intuitively figure > > out how do something then that is a problem - 1 area is networking > > -though a lot of improvements have been made there is still a lot of > > bugs - (eg on my laptop sometimes the eth0 and eth1 (wired and wirless) > > get transposed or network manager decides to create a new ethernet > > device- there are a few other issues but not the time here. > > > > We are humans after all not dolphins. We all think in a particular way. > > And need to make operations more smother. One good example is Add remove > > programs and Software Updater > > Have you filed bugs? > > > We have a great product. That needs promoting and user feed back. > > The first is what Marketing is for. The second is what Bugzilla is for. > > > There are few ideas i have but i would like to stress, lets not reinvent > > the wheel, if there is a system in place lets use it to its full > > potential. > > Right on! > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board > Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Tue Aug 8 12:53:36 2006 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2006 14:53:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le Mar 8 ao?t 2006 13:14, Paul W. Frields a ?crit : >> We have a great product. That needs promoting and user feed back. > > The first is what Marketing is for. The second is what Bugzilla is for. I strongly disagree. 1. The weight of a Fedora bugzilla report is pretty low, 2. A lot of Fedora packagers consider it's not their job to push user reports upstream. 3. Using upstream bugzilla is asking to be ignored - any feature evolution (and usability fixes are always considered feature evolutions) will be discussed in mailing lists/irc channels by developpers between themselves. Not in the bugzilla where the reporter can follow the discussion. Then when the user complains after a few months he'll be informed the decision was taken somewhere else without leaving him any opportunity to make his case or asking seriously fo his input. (and you and I know old bugzilla bugs will be ignored forever, since if they were important, someone would have acted on them before) Which means any problematic interaction between app A, B and C (typical usability problem) requires users: 1. to be able to locate the A, B, C forums where usability is discussed 2. to join them, learn the mood and discussion conventions 3. to convince A, B, C to work together (with zero credentials "just basic user report"), probably at an inconvenient date for upstream ie requires a *lot* of time, communication skills, mastery of technical english, etc Practically that means that without any group support a user report will go nowhere. Even if he found a perfectly valid problem. Distributions which create usability SIGs are able to influence upstream evolution the way their users need. They help formalise user reports in clean technical english. They are able to gather data and numbers that can not be waved away like an individual user-level report often is if upstream deems it inconvenient. Distributions which don't are only represented by their developpers, who are supposed to represent distro users but in practice only push their personal agenda (which may be good or bad but has often little in common with the wishes of users) No usability group gave us most of the UI gems of early GNOME 2, and an awful lot of the bad reputation GNOME and Fedora still suffer from (GNOME is not Fedora but Fedora/Red Hat people were certainly major players in the decision making process then). Till Fedora developpers/maintainers consider usability problems bugs (to be fixed) and not "enhancements" (to be ignored at will), someone else needs to mediate between Fedora users and all the upstreams Fedora distributes. Lastly this kind of group is a major generator of user goodwill - "let the users engage upstream alone" leads to the kind of Fedora-bashing articles we've seen lately. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot From david at projetofedora.org Tue Aug 8 13:32:41 2006 From: david at projetofedora.org (David Barzilay) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 08:32:41 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? Message-ID: Hi Damien, > Well, this project is now official How did you accomplish that? Thanks for clarifying! Best regards, -- David Barzilay FAMSCO Member Brazilian Fedora Ambassador From jaboutboul at speakeasy.net Tue Aug 8 17:51:08 2006 From: jaboutboul at speakeasy.net (Jack Aboutboul) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:51:08 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Preparation of Fedora T-shirts In-Reply-To: References: <1154018355.6389.26.camel@redhat> Message-ID: <1155059469.2966.184.camel@deepfort> On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 14:58 -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > On Thu, 27 Jul 2006, Pawel Sadowski wrote: > > > On 27/07/2006 Karlie Robinson wrote: > > > >> Have you talked with the vendor about Sponsoring the shirts? As in > >> you > >> would they be willing to cover part of the costs of the shirts for > >> your > >> Fedora events if their logo was included on the shirt? > >> > >> You want to give away 200 shirts, that's 200 people walking around > >> with > >> an advert for the vendor - there is value there. > > > > Hmm, it can be a good idea. I will try to find some local vendor willing > > to cover part of the costs. > > In addition, please keep me in the loop, and I can work with FAMSCO and > discuss helping with the costs. If you want to get tshirts made locally, > that's a fantastic idea, and I am supportive of that. Right on. The event kit should be debuting in time for this thursday's meeting. Check it out for additional information regarding graphics approval and how to go about getting costs covered. Jack From stickster at gmail.com Tue Aug 8 19:18:50 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:18:50 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-08-08 at 14:53 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le Mar 8 ao?t 2006 13:14, Paul W. Frields a ?crit : > > >> We have a great product. That needs promoting and user feed back. > > > > The first is what Marketing is for. The second is what Bugzilla is for. > > I strongly disagree. [...snip...] Thank you Nicolas, this is the first substantial discussion I've seen on this topic. I really have no opposition to a SIG for this work, but I want to see it hashed out on the appropriate lists transparently, not unilaterally announced. Unless I missed the big discussion elsewhere -- which is possible; unlike the superhuman Rahul, I monitor only a subset of the work going on! (I don't know how he does it, honestly.) SIGs should be working under the umbrella of one of the existing subprojects. I'd like to see that happening, to insure the work is monitored and supported correctly. If Marketing is not the correct umbrella, this discussion should be started on the list for the correct one. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Tue Aug 8 20:02:20 2006 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 22:02:20 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1155067340.7915.7.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mardi 08 ao?t 2006 ? 15:18 -0400, Paul W. Frields a ?crit : > On Tue, 2006-08-08 at 14:53 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Le Mar 8 ao?t 2006 13:14, Paul W. Frields a ?crit : > > > > >> We have a great product. That needs promoting and user feed back. > > > > > > The first is what Marketing is for. The second is what Bugzilla is for. > > > > I strongly disagree. > [...snip...] > > Thank you Nicolas, this is the first substantial discussion I've seen on > this topic. I really have no opposition to a SIG for this work, but I > want to see it hashed out on the appropriate lists transparently, not > unilaterally announced. The appropriate list is certainly the desktop one, as any cli/server usability problem is very low prio nowadays. However since it's been almost dead lately I don't think discussing it directly there would have had any effect. > Unless I missed the big discussion elsewhere -- I missed it too :) I only rationalised why a usability group would be useful, I have little idea if it's the kind of usability group proposed today. Also I have my fingers in enough pies today I hope someone will take up the program and make it real, but I've little time to contribute myself. Though this is a direct result of trying to engage upstream alone as we're supposed to do nowadays. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From duffy at redhat.com Tue Aug 8 20:08:19 2006 From: duffy at redhat.com (=?UTF-8?B?TcOhaXLDrW4gRHVmZnk=?=) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 16:08:19 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <1155067340.7915.7.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155067340.7915.7.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <44D8EF33.4050406@redhat.com> Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Also I have my fingers in enough pies today I hope someone will take up > the program and make it real, but I've little time to contribute myself. > Though this is a direct result of trying to engage upstream alone as > we're supposed to do nowadays. Are there any other distro-specific usability groups out there? I'm kind of confused at the goal of a distro-specific usability group. Doesn't it make more sense to work with an upstream usability group such as the GNOME Usability Project (which is somewhat dormant AFICT)? Has someone tried to engage upstream via projects such as this and met with resistance? (this is the feeling I get from your email?) Where I see a distro-specific usability group being useful: - Software update tool usability (because different distros handle this differently) - Infrastructure usability (e.g. usability of the Fedora website(s), account system, bugzilla, etc.) But neither appears to be the goal...? ~m From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Tue Aug 8 21:33:12 2006 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2006 23:33:12 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <44D8EF33.4050406@redhat.com> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155067340.7915.7.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <44D8EF33.4050406@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1155072792.7915.68.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le mardi 08 ao?t 2006 ? 16:08 -0400, M?ir?n Duffy a ?crit : > Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > Also I have my fingers in enough pies today I hope someone will take up > > the program and make it real, but I've little time to contribute myself. > > Though this is a direct result of trying to engage upstream alone as > > we're supposed to do nowadays. > > Are there any other distro-specific usability groups out there? Novell I think has an active usability project > I'm kind of confused at the goal of a distro-specific usability group. > Doesn't it make more sense to work with an upstream usability group such > as the GNOME Usability Project (which is somewhat dormant AFICT)? Has > someone tried to engage upstream via projects such as this and met with > resistance? (this is the feeling I get from your email?) The problem is actual users won't have "GNOME problems" or "KDE problems" or "OO.o problems". They'll have Fedora user problems. So if on Monday a user hits a usability problem in OO.o we ask him to integrate the OO.o ecosystem. On Tuesday frustrated with OO.o he tries koffice (he didn't set up fixing OO.o after all - he want to make it work within Fedora not wait months before the next OO.o release). It works but then there is another problem which wasn't present in OO.o. We'll tell him "finished digesting OO.o upstream - try KDE now" And so on. (you'll note that when a user reports a crash we don't ask him to report upstream directly - if we followed this logic we know perfectly well a lot of problems would never be fixed satisfactorily) Who there has enough time to follow every single Fedora list and IRC channel? On the usability front we're asking users to do an effort several orders of magnitude higher - engage with every single upstream they may use as part of their everyday Fedora experience. That's not realistic. Red Hat/Fedora moved from a "patch everything to accommodate Red Hat customer wishes" to "use as vanilla upstream as possible". This is all well and good but I don't see why using vanilla upstream should prevent the Fedora community as a whole from telling upstream what we wish in the next release. Other distributions are not afraid to do so. This requires actively collecting and discussing problems at the distro level. Sadly almost never done in Fedora - the sole exception I remember was the new print tool requirements. The influence of Fedora as a user community over upstream is so diffuse one can ask if it even exists at all. > Where I see a distro-specific usability group being useful: > > - Software update tool usability (because different distros handle this > differently) > - Infrastructure usability (e.g. usability of the Fedora website(s), > account system, bugzilla, etc.) > > But neither appears to be the goal...? Apart from the general "help bridge the gap between upstream and users" you need to consider the following. A usability problem means "it works technically but it's awkward for me". So: 1. there is a way to get the job done nevertheless - making it not worth spending the time reporting if it's difficult (and unless you already work with the affected upstream it will be) 2. lone reports may be subjective You can only do good usability work by correlating many user reports. If you make it hard enough for reports to percolate upstream, the few which make it will be dismissed as "non representative" especially if they don't fit in the user abstraction upstream devs have (if they did fit in it chances are the problem would never have happened in the first place) One major usability problem is inter-app inconsistency. By definition this kind of problem impacts many different upstreams. And it's dependant on the actual software collection the user runs. The Fedora context is very specific - we refuse to ship many apps which are good enough legal-wise for competing distros. Therefore our users won't have the same problems as a distro who ships mplayer instead of totem for example. Similarly the userbase of a project like OO.o will span several operating systems, so Fedora usability priorities won't map to OO.o usability priorities, and if Fedora does not make the effort to make its case loudly OO.o will just develop for their biggest port - Windows. And so on. -- Nicolas Mailhot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From steven at easytec.com.hk Wed Aug 9 03:17:40 2006 From: steven at easytec.com.hk (Steven James Drinnan) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:17:40 +0800 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1155093460.2829.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-08-08 at 14:53 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le Mar 8 ao?t 2006 13:14, Paul W. Frields a ?crit : > > >> We have a great product. That needs promoting and user feed back. > > > > The first is what Marketing is for. The second is what Bugzilla is for. > > I strongly disagree. > > 1. The weight of a Fedora bugzilla report is pretty low, > > 2. A lot of Fedora packagers consider it's not their job to push user > reports upstream. > > 3. Using upstream bugzilla is asking to be ignored - any feature evolution > (and usability fixes are always considered feature evolutions) will be > discussed in mailing lists/irc channels by developpers between themselves. > Not in the bugzilla where the reporter can follow the discussion. Then > when the user complains after a few months he'll be informed the decision > was taken somewhere else without leaving him any opportunity to make his > case or asking seriously fo his input. (and you and I know old bugzilla > bugs will be ignored forever, since if they were important, someone would > have acted on them before) > > Which means any problematic interaction between app A, B and C (typical > usability problem) requires users: > > 1. to be able to locate the A, B, C forums where usability is discussed > > 2. to join them, learn the mood and discussion conventions > > 3. to convince A, B, C to work together (with zero credentials "just basic > user report"), probably at an inconvenient date for upstream > > ie requires a *lot* of time, communication skills, mastery of technical > english, etc > > Practically that means that without any group support a user report will > go nowhere. Even if he found a perfectly valid problem. > > Distributions which create usability SIGs are able to influence upstream > evolution the way their users need. They help formalise user reports in > clean technical english. They are able to gather data and numbers that can > not be waved away like an individual user-level report often is if > upstream deems it inconvenient. > > Distributions which don't are only represented by their developpers, who > are supposed to represent distro users but in practice only push their > personal agenda (which may be good or bad but has often little in common > with the wishes of users) > > No usability group gave us most of the UI gems of early GNOME 2, and an > awful lot of the bad reputation GNOME and Fedora still suffer from (GNOME > is not Fedora but Fedora/Red Hat people were certainly major players in > the decision making process then). > > Till Fedora developpers/maintainers consider usability problems bugs (to > be fixed) and not "enhancements" (to be ignored at will), someone else > needs to mediate between Fedora users and all the upstreams Fedora > distributes. > > Lastly this kind of group is a major generator of user goodwill - "let the > users engage upstream alone" leads to the kind of Fedora-bashing articles > we've seen lately. > > Regards, > My thoughts exactly, bugzilla is great to fix a particular problem but it does not address what users needs are. Steven From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 05:09:16 2006 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 01:09:16 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <1155093460.2829.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155093460.2829.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <556f970a0608082209v1ba269a9ie38e8f6e451be6c6@mail.gmail.com> On 8/8/06, Steven James Drinnan wrote: > > > My thoughts exactly, bugzilla is great to fix a particular problem but > it does not address what users needs are. What about Featurezilla? --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 9 05:58:25 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 11:28:25 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <556f970a0608082209v1ba269a9ie38e8f6e451be6c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155093460.2829.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <556f970a0608082209v1ba269a9ie38e8f6e451be6c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44D97981.7090500@fedoraproject.org> Jeremy Hogan wrote: > On 8/8/06, *Steven James Drinnan* > wrote: > > > My thoughts exactly, bugzilla is great to fix a particular problem but > it does not address what users needs are. > > > What about Featurezilla? > Thanks but no thanks. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 9 07:29:37 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 12:59:37 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <44D98EE1.2020407@fedoraproject.org> Paul W. Frields wrote: > On Tue, 2006-08-08 at 14:53 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: >> Le Mar 8 ao?t 2006 13:14, Paul W. Frields a ?crit : >> >>>> We have a great product. That needs promoting and user feed back. >>> The first is what Marketing is for. The second is what Bugzilla is for. >> I strongly disagree. > [...snip...] > > Thank you Nicolas, this is the first substantial discussion I've seen on > this topic. I really have no opposition to a SIG for this work, but I > want to see it hashed out on the appropriate lists transparently, not > unilaterally announced. Unless I missed the big discussion elsewhere -- > which is possible; unlike the superhuman Rahul, I monitor only a subset > of the work going on! (I don't know how he does it, honestly.) > Nicolas comments can be summed up as Red Hat does more work on upstream than it does on polish which is what I said in the earlier board discussions too. You shouldnt be missing that being a member yourself. Rahul From nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net Wed Aug 9 09:02:39 2006 From: nicolas.mailhot at laposte.net (Nicolas Mailhot) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:02:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <556f970a0608082209v1ba269a9ie38e8f6e451be6c6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155093460.2829.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> <556f970a0608082209v1ba269a9ie38e8f6e451be6c6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <54672.192.54.193.53.1155114159.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Le Mer 9 ao?t 2006 07:09, Jeremy Hogan a ?crit : > On 8/8/06, Steven James Drinnan wrote: >> >> >> My thoughts exactly, bugzilla is great to fix a particular problem but >> it does not address what users needs are. > > > What about Featurezilla? You'd still need a team to process the user reports. The problem now is not bugzilla or insert-favorite-tool-there. The problem is there is no team at the Fedora level trying to analyse our user usability feedback. Regards, -- Nicolas Mailhot From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 12:28:35 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 08:28:35 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <1155067340.7915.7.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155067340.7915.7.camel@rousalka.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1155126515.15788.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-08-08 at 22:02 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > Le mardi 08 ao?t 2006 ? 15:18 -0400, Paul W. Frields a ?crit : > > On Tue, 2006-08-08 at 14:53 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > > > Le Mar 8 ao?t 2006 13:14, Paul W. Frields a ?crit : > > > > > > >> We have a great product. That needs promoting and user feed back. > > > > > > > > The first is what Marketing is for. The second is what Bugzilla is for. > > > > > > I strongly disagree. > > [...snip...] > > > > Thank you Nicolas, this is the first substantial discussion I've seen on > > this topic. I really have no opposition to a SIG for this work, but I > > want to see it hashed out on the appropriate lists transparently, not > > unilaterally announced. > > The appropriate list is certainly the desktop one, as any cli/server > usability problem is very low prio nowadays. However since it's been > almost dead lately I don't think discussing it directly there would have > had any effect. > > > Unless I missed the big discussion elsewhere -- > > I missed it too :) > I only rationalised why a usability group would be useful, I have little > idea if it's the kind of usability group proposed today. > > Also I have my fingers in enough pies today I hope someone will take up > the program and make it real, but I've little time to contribute myself. > Though this is a direct result of trying to engage upstream alone as > we're supposed to do nowadays. Don't get me wrong, I see that a usability initiative is worthwhile. It *is* difficult to expect to users to follow multiple upstream vendors. Unfortunately, I think Bugzilla is not living up to its potential as far as serving as a conduit for issues to upstream. Being able to link to one or more "outside Bugzilla" bugs and follow them with a single Fedora/RH Bugzilla entry, for instance, would be a major boon. I seem to remember that idea being discussed at one time. I found this: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=178305 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=189813 The latter seems more relevant. What would be *really* useful, IMHO, is to be able to enter an outside bugzilla URL which would cause the RH/Fedora Bugzilla to CC itself on that outside bug, as well as take its discussion upstream unless marked otherwise. (We don't want to clog upstream with very Fedora-specific stuff, for example.) That's neither here nor there, though -- most importantly I wanted some public discussion of this usability initiative and some more concrete goals and objectives than what I currently see on the wiki. It's a worthy effort that deserves more thought and input. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 12:32:08 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 08:32:08 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <44D98EE1.2020407@fedoraproject.org> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44D98EE1.2020407@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1155126728.15788.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 12:59 +0530, Rahul wrote: > Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-08-08 at 14:53 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote: > >> Le Mar 8 ao?t 2006 13:14, Paul W. Frields a ?crit : > >> > >>>> We have a great product. That needs promoting and user feed back. > >>> The first is what Marketing is for. The second is what Bugzilla is for. > >> I strongly disagree. > > [...snip...] > > > > Thank you Nicolas, this is the first substantial discussion I've seen on > > this topic. I really have no opposition to a SIG for this work, but I > > want to see it hashed out on the appropriate lists transparently, not > > unilaterally announced. Unless I missed the big discussion elsewhere -- > > which is possible; unlike the superhuman Rahul, I monitor only a subset > > of the work going on! (I don't know how he does it, honestly.) > > > > Nicolas comments can be summed up as Red Hat does more work on upstream > than it does on polish which is what I said in the earlier board > discussions too. You shouldnt be missing that being a member yourself. Rahul, It's possible that you're missing the point of this particular discussion. It wasn't that I don't understand the potential goals of a Usability initiative (I do), nor that I don't understand a need for it (I do), nor that I didn't understand Nicolas' comments (I did). The entire problem -- and you will see the threads on fedora-advisory-board to this effect -- is that announcements are being made about "official" Feodra projects without any prior discussion about those needs, setting concrete goals and objectives, and so forth. I came back with some comments intended to raise issues about possible duplication of effort and get people talking about it. I don't mind being wrong, but the discussion needs to take place. My final comment was intended to point out that I hadn't seen any of this discussion, although there was a possibility they were being held somewhere that I hadn't seen them. Those should be community discussions like RFCs where interested parties can hash them out before bringing them to the proper venue for backing. I haven't missed your comments in board meetings, but they don't constitute public discussion either, AFAICT. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 9 13:01:14 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 18:31:14 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <1155126728.15788.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44D98EE1.2020407@fedoraproject.org> <1155126728.15788.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <44D9DC9A.2080101@fedoraproject.org> Hi, > Rahul, > > It's possible that you're missing the point of this particular > discussion. It wasn't that I don't understand the potential goals of a > Usability initiative (I do), nor that I don't understand a need for it > (I do), nor that I didn't understand Nicolas' comments (I did). The > entire problem -- and you will see the threads on fedora-advisory-board > to this effect -- is that announcements are being made about "official" > Feodra projects without any prior discussion about those needs, setting > concrete goals and objectives, and so forth. I came back with some > comments intended to raise issues about possible duplication of effort > and get people talking about it. I don't mind being wrong, but the > discussion needs to take place. Sure. We definitely did expect discussions to take place. Wider set of announcements depend on fedora-announce list mails being moderated and we need to make sure we dont end up announcing things without the right ideas in place. When a new sub project is being announced, it gets a lot of attention and we would do better to explain things properly and give plenty of room for potential contributors to work their magic. > > My final comment was intended to point out that I hadn't seen any of > this discussion, although there was a possibility they were being held > somewhere that I hadn't seen them. Those should be community > discussions like RFCs where interested parties can hash them out before > bringing them to the proper venue for backing. > > I haven't missed your comments in board meetings, but they don't > constitute public discussion either, AFAICT. They arent public discussions as such but I wasnt expressing a fundamentally new idea. See the problem is not that we dont know the issues involved but that our priorities have been elsewhere and arguably misaligned but unless there is more people going to contribute and fix the issues announcing a new project isnt going to change things. The immediate reactions I see to a new project discussion involve is people listing their favorite alleged issues and that wont get us very far. Rahul From stickster at gmail.com Wed Aug 9 13:58:24 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Wed, 09 Aug 2006 09:58:24 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <44D9DC9A.2080101@fedoraproject.org> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44D98EE1.2020407@fedoraproject.org> <1155126728.15788.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44D9DC9A.2080101@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1155131904.15788.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 18:31 +0530, Rahul wrote: > > It's possible that you're missing the point of this particular > > discussion. It wasn't that I don't understand the potential goals of a > > Usability initiative (I do), nor that I don't understand a need for it > > (I do), nor that I didn't understand Nicolas' comments (I did). The > > entire problem -- and you will see the threads on fedora-advisory-board > > to this effect -- is that announcements are being made about "official" > > Feodra projects without any prior discussion about those needs, setting > > concrete goals and objectives, and so forth. I came back with some > > comments intended to raise issues about possible duplication of effort > > and get people talking about it. I don't mind being wrong, but the > > discussion needs to take place. > > Sure. We definitely did expect discussions to take place. Wider set of > announcements depend on fedora-announce list mails being moderated and > we need to make sure we dont end up announcing things without the right > ideas in place. When a new sub project is being announced, it gets a lot > of attention and we would do better to explain things properly and give > plenty of room for potential contributors to work their magic. Yes, and part of that magic includes having answers to the real questions, such as "What measurable objectives can you reach?" We're in agreement here, I'm pretty sure. > > My final comment was intended to point out that I hadn't seen any of > > this discussion, although there was a possibility they were being held > > somewhere that I hadn't seen them. Those should be community > > discussions like RFCs where interested parties can hash them out before > > bringing them to the proper venue for backing. > > > > I haven't missed your comments in board meetings, but they don't > > constitute public discussion either, AFAICT. > > They arent public discussions as such but I wasnt expressing a > fundamentally new idea. See the problem is not that we dont know the > issues involved but that our priorities have been elsewhere and arguably > misaligned but unless there is more people going to contribute and fix > the issues announcing a new project isnt going to change things. The > immediate reactions I see to a new project discussion involve is people > listing their favorite alleged issues and that wont get us very far. Also agreed. Again, discussion before announcement is the key. No one should be hesitant to bring out new ideas, but as you say, it has to be more than saying, "We're going to solve this with a new project," or simply listing complaints (valid sa they might be). Having a set of goals, objectives, and methodologies is key. I would say the methodologies part is incredibly important when you talk about issues as potentially divisive as usability. Without clear unbiased standards and methodologies that can pretty much dissolve into a lot of disagreement over trivial details. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From splinux at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 9 15:06:24 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 16:06:24 +0100 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora usability : a new project? In-Reply-To: <1155131904.15788.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1154912028.2835.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155035640.6135.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <36512.192.54.193.51.1155041616.squirrel@rousalka.dyndns.org> <1155064730.6135.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44D98EE1.2020407@fedoraproject.org> <1155126728.15788.40.camel@localhost.localdomain> <44D9DC9A.2080101@fedoraproject.org> <1155131904.15788.45.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Please, migrate your discussions about Fedora Usability on the Fedora-Desktop-List Thanks in advance Damien 2006/8/9, Paul W. Frields : > > On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 18:31 +0530, Rahul wrote: > > > It's possible that you're missing the point of this particular > > > discussion. It wasn't that I don't understand the potential goals of > a > > > Usability initiative (I do), nor that I don't understand a need for it > > > (I do), nor that I didn't understand Nicolas' comments (I did). The > > > entire problem -- and you will see the threads on > fedora-advisory-board > > > to this effect -- is that announcements are being made about > "official" > > > Feodra projects without any prior discussion about those needs, > setting > > > concrete goals and objectives, and so forth. I came back with some > > > comments intended to raise issues about possible duplication of effort > > > and get people talking about it. I don't mind being wrong, but the > > > discussion needs to take place. > > > > Sure. We definitely did expect discussions to take place. Wider set of > > announcements depend on fedora-announce list mails being moderated and > > we need to make sure we dont end up announcing things without the right > > ideas in place. When a new sub project is being announced, it gets a lot > > of attention and we would do better to explain things properly and give > > plenty of room for potential contributors to work their magic. > > Yes, and part of that magic includes having answers to the real > questions, such as "What measurable objectives can you reach?" We're in > agreement here, I'm pretty sure. > > > > My final comment was intended to point out that I hadn't seen any of > > > this discussion, although there was a possibility they were being held > > > somewhere that I hadn't seen them. Those should be community > > > discussions like RFCs where interested parties can hash them out > before > > > bringing them to the proper venue for backing. > > > > > > I haven't missed your comments in board meetings, but they don't > > > constitute public discussion either, AFAICT. > > > > They arent public discussions as such but I wasnt expressing a > > fundamentally new idea. See the problem is not that we dont know the > > issues involved but that our priorities have been elsewhere and arguably > > misaligned but unless there is more people going to contribute and fix > > the issues announcing a new project isnt going to change things. The > > immediate reactions I see to a new project discussion involve is people > > listing their favorite alleged issues and that wont get us very far. > > Also agreed. Again, discussion before announcement is the key. No one > should be hesitant to bring out new ideas, but as you say, it has to be > more than saying, "We're going to solve this with a new project," or > simply listing complaints (valid sa they might be). Having a set of > goals, objectives, and methodologies is key. I would say the > methodologies part is incredibly important when you talk about issues as > potentially divisive as usability. Without clear unbiased standards and > methodologies that can pretty much dissolve into a lot of disagreement > over trivial details. > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board > Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 10 23:58:08 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 05:28:08 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] What's new in Fedora Core 6? Message-ID: <44DBC810.7050201@fedoraproject.org> Hi Number of people wanted a executive overview of what is new in Fedora Core 6. We have reached the feature freeze with the second test release so there wouldnt be many new things added after this point. So here it is now... http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FC6ReleaseSummary Feel free to point out more changes as you come across them. It would also be helpful to add screenshots and videos of the new features to the tours page. Thanks. Rahul From splinux at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 11 12:32:41 2006 From: splinux at fedoraproject.org (Damien Durand) Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 14:32:41 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] About Fedora Usability Message-ID: Dear board and Fedora Usability members, I'm writing this mail to speak about the Fedora Usability project/sigs. Explain the objectifs and fix various conflicts about this. First a description : The Fedora Usability project aims to provide coherence, accessibility and intuivity for all people using Fedora Core and its associated resources. Then my goals with this project/sigs are : - Help the developer team to build coherent and easy to use applications - Help the webmaster team to provide a coherent comprehensive website - Help the documentation team to provide a coherent and comprehensive documentation How? - Track the uncoherent things in the Fedora softwares, read the Fedora contents about the documentation and websites. Once a thing is detected, this one is reported to the Usability Schedule and is fixed by a patch. Next this patch is send to the maintainer. The Usability project/sigs allows to us to study the user actions and understand how the users use the Fedora distribution and different resources. Correct me If I'm wrong but Fedora is not only a distribution for sysadmins and developers. Fedora must be usable by everyone! So it's my opinion and people who don't agree with this will not have a beer to the next fudcon ;-) I'll make a rapport about this project/sigs every weeks and send it to Thomas Chung to show the advancements. Fedora must be simple and for everyone and we make an effort whit that. Good day to all and thanks in advance, Damien Durand -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 11 19:44:42 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:14:42 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora Core 6 - First Impressions Message-ID: <44DCDE2A.2040509@fedoraproject.org> Hi "Overall, FC6 looks and feels like a more solid, polished version of FC5 rather than a wholesale revamp. I look forward to the finished product this fall." http://www.oreillynet.com/onlamp/blog/2006/08/fedora_core_6_first_impression.html I think that impression is pretty accurate. We have had a number of improvements. An Java applet viewer by default and multi repository support for Anaconda. Major performance improvements and more robust support of suspend and resume. Much better Xen implementation etc but nothing I would call fundamentally new. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 11 21:25:54 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 02:55:54 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora Core 6 Tour - Help Wanted Message-ID: <44DCF5E2.3000206@fedoraproject.org> Hi http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tours/FedoraCore6 I have added a help wanted section which lists the new features that are easily demonstrable to end users Kindly help in taking screenshots or screencasts of these features and add them to the wiki page. Thanks. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Aug 12 16:04:36 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Sat, 12 Aug 2006 21:34:36 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Becoming a free software developer, part I: Why am I not a free software developer? Message-ID: <44DDFC14.4040608@fedoraproject.org> Hi http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/node/1714 Maybe something for the Fedora Women group to respond to. Rahul From linux_lehrling at yahoo.de Tue Aug 15 11:37:06 2006 From: linux_lehrling at yahoo.de (Claus Reheis) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 13:37:06 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Linuxday on 9th September in Tirol/Austria Message-ID: <1155641826.7864.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi! I will help on the installationparty on this event and want to know if it is possible to get some FEDORA-Flyers, folders or anything else with a fedora-logo on it? Until now the Installation-Team is 90% (K)Ubuntu focused (Canonical Ltd sponsored) and I would like to show a little Fedora presence there! So is it possible to get the stuff and if yes, where to ask for it? Greetings, Claus ___________________________________________________________ Der fr?he Vogel f?ngt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de From gerold at lugd.org Tue Aug 15 12:20:11 2006 From: gerold at lugd.org (Gerold Kassube) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:20:11 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Linuxday on 9th September in Tirol/Austria In-Reply-To: <1155641826.7864.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1155641826.7864.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1155644411.3105.2.camel@AMILO-GK.homenet.local> Hi Claus, on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/GetStuff?highlight=%28stuf% 29 you can request material for event(s) ... Are u still an Ambassador? Unfortunatelly on the mentioned date I?m not available because I?m on holiday :-) Regards Gerold Am Dienstag, den 15.08.2006, 13:37 +0200 schrieb Claus Reheis: > Hi! > > I will help on the installationparty on this event and want to know > if it is possible to get some FEDORA-Flyers, folders or anything else > with a fedora-logo on it? > > Until now the Installation-Team is 90% (K)Ubuntu focused (Canonical Ltd > sponsored) and I would like to show a little Fedora presence there! > > So is it possible to get the stuff and if yes, where to ask for it? > > Greetings, > > Claus > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Der frhe Vogel fngt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -- Regards Gerold Kassube Fedora Ambassador Deutschland / Germany Schweiz / Switzerland Email: GeroldKa at fedoraproject.org 1024D/F33128B9 4ABC A903 F1F4 D9CC C422 AACA EDF1 DF42 F331 28B9 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From linux_lehrling at yahoo.de Tue Aug 15 13:25:17 2006 From: linux_lehrling at yahoo.de (Claus Reheis) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:25:17 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Linuxday on 9th September in Tirol/Austria In-Reply-To: <1155644411.3105.2.camel@AMILO-GK.homenet.local> References: <1155641826.7864.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155644411.3105.2.camel@AMILO-GK.homenet.local> Message-ID: <1155648317.8478.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 14:20 +0200, Gerold Kassube wrote: Hi Gerold, > Hi Claus, > > on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/GetStuff?highlight=%28stuf% > 29 you can request material for event(s) ... > > Are u still an Ambassador? No, I am not an Fedora-Ambassador! How can i become one?:) It fears out the hell of me when I see how good the Ubuntu People do their homework here. On most LUG pages in Austria you find UBUNTU as the recommend Distribution, but imho Fedora Core 5 is for sure the best Desktop-Linux-Stations at the time! What can we do? Claus > > Unfortunatelly on the mentioned date I?m not available because I?m on > holiday :-) > > Regards > > Gerold > > > Am Dienstag, den 15.08.2006, 13:37 +0200 schrieb Claus Reheis: > > Hi! > > > > I will help on the installationparty on this event and want to know > > if it is possible to get some FEDORA-Flyers, folders or anything else > > with a fedora-logo on it? > > > > Until now the Installation-Team is 90% (K)Ubuntu focused (Canonical Ltd > > sponsored) and I would like to show a little Fedora presence there! > > > > So is it possible to get the stuff and if yes, where to ask for it? > > > > Greetings, > > > > Claus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Der frhe Vogel fngt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From gerold at lugd.org Tue Aug 15 13:39:46 2006 From: gerold at lugd.org (Gerold Kassube) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 15:39:46 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Linuxday on 9th September in Tirol/Austria In-Reply-To: <1155648317.8478.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1155641826.7864.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155644411.3105.2.camel@AMILO-GK.homenet.local> <1155648317.8478.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1155649186.3105.6.camel@AMILO-GK.homenet.local> :-) Thats a good base for further discussions *ggg* fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors?highlight=%28ambassa%29 will tell you how to become a Fedora Ambassador and what?s to do ... If you need further assistance do not hesitate to contact one of the Ambassador shown in the list :-) -Gerold Am Dienstag, den 15.08.2006, 15:25 +0200 schrieb Claus Reheis: > On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 14:20 +0200, Gerold Kassube wrote: > > Hi Gerold, > > Hi Claus, > > > > on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/GetStuff?highlight=%28stuf% > > 29 you can request material for event(s) ... > > > > Are u still an Ambassador? > No, I am not an Fedora-Ambassador! > How can i become one?:) > > It fears out the hell of me when I see how good the Ubuntu People do > their homework here. > On most LUG pages in Austria you find UBUNTU as the recommend > Distribution, but imho Fedora Core 5 is for sure the > best Desktop-Linux-Stations at the time! > What can we do? > > Claus > > > > > > > > > Unfortunatelly on the mentioned date I?m not available because I?m on > > holiday :-) > > > > Regards > > > > Gerold > > > > > > Am Dienstag, den 15.08.2006, 13:37 +0200 schrieb Claus Reheis: > > > Hi! > > > > > > I will help on the installationparty on this event and want to know > > > if it is possible to get some FEDORA-Flyers, folders or anything else > > > with a fedora-logo on it? > > > > > > Until now the Installation-Team is 90% (K)Ubuntu focused (Canonical Ltd > > > sponsored) and I would like to show a little Fedora presence there! > > > > > > So is it possible to get the stuff and if yes, where to ask for it? > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > Claus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > Der frhe Vogel fngt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de > > > > > > -- > > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -- Gerold Kassube -Vorstandsvorsitzender- Linux Usergroup L?rrach e.V. Marie-Curie-Strasse 8 79539 L?rrach _ ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) - against HTML email X & vCards / \ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil URL: From linux_lehrling at yahoo.de Tue Aug 15 17:49:30 2006 From: linux_lehrling at yahoo.de (Claus Reheis) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 19:49:30 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Linuxday on 9th September in Tirol/Austria In-Reply-To: <1155649186.3105.6.camel@AMILO-GK.homenet.local> References: <1155641826.7864.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155644411.3105.2.camel@AMILO-GK.homenet.local> <1155648317.8478.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155649186.3105.6.camel@AMILO-GK.homenet.local> Message-ID: <1155664170.8876.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 15:39 +0200, Gerold Kassube wrote: > :-) > > Thats a good base for further discussions *ggg* On my way! -I created an Account on the Fedora Account System! - Signed the CLA Now I try to add myself to the "ambassador" group but I always get an error when I click "add" at the new membership part! I also tried to add my name to the "Fedora Ambassadors Country List" but I am not so experienced in editing Wikis! How can I do that? I already signed up to the "EditGroup" successfully! > > fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors?highlight=%28ambassa%29 > > will tell you how to become a Fedora Ambassador and what?s to do ... > > If you need further assistance do not hesitate to contact one of the > Ambassador shown in the list :-) > > -Gerold Thanks -Claus > > > > Am Dienstag, den 15.08.2006, 15:25 +0200 schrieb Claus Reheis: > > On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 14:20 +0200, Gerold Kassube wrote: > > > > Hi Gerold, > > > Hi Claus, > > > > > > on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/GetStuff?highlight=%28stuf% > > > 29 you can request material for event(s) ... > > > > > > Are u still an Ambassador? > > No, I am not an Fedora-Ambassador! > > How can i become one?:) > > > > It fears out the hell of me when I see how good the Ubuntu People do > > their homework here. > > On most LUG pages in Austria you find UBUNTU as the recommend > > Distribution, but imho Fedora Core 5 is for sure the > > best Desktop-Linux-Stations at the time! > > What can we do? > > > > Claus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunatelly on the mentioned date I?m not available because I?m on > > > holiday :-) > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Gerold > > > > > > > > > Am Dienstag, den 15.08.2006, 13:37 +0200 schrieb Claus Reheis: > > > > Hi! > > > > > > > > I will help on the installationparty on this event and want to know > > > > if it is possible to get some FEDORA-Flyers, folders or anything else > > > > with a fedora-logo on it? > > > > > > > > Until now the Installation-Team is 90% (K)Ubuntu focused (Canonical Ltd > > > > sponsored) and I would like to show a little Fedora presence there! > > > > > > > > So is it possible to get the stuff and if yes, where to ask for it? > > > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > > > Claus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > > > Der frhe Vogel fngt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > > > -- > > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > > Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de > > > > -- > > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list ___________________________________________________________ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de From tchung at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 15 18:05:50 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 11:05:50 -0700 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Linuxday on 9th September in Tirol/Austria In-Reply-To: <1155664170.8876.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1155641826.7864.12.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155644411.3105.2.camel@AMILO-GK.homenet.local> <1155648317.8478.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1155649186.3105.6.camel@AMILO-GK.homenet.local> <1155664170.8876.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <369bce3b0608151105y5ce0df83vceda26536de6565@mail.gmail.com> On 8/15/06, Claus Reheis wrote: > On Tue, 2006-08-15 at 15:39 +0200, Gerold Kassube wrote: > > :-) > > > > Thats a good base for further discussions *ggg* > On my way! > -I created an Account on the Fedora Account System! > - Signed the CLA > > Now I try to add myself to the "ambassador" group but I always get an > error when I click "add" at the new membership part! > I also tried to add my name to the "Fedora Ambassadors Country List" but > I am not so experienced in editing Wikis! How can I do that? I already > signed up to the "EditGroup" successfully! > Claus, Please contact me off the list for Ambassadors Membership Service Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 17 12:47:13 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:17:13 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Where's Red Hat? Peek Under Fedora Message-ID: <44E46551.5000709@fedoraproject.org> Hi A look at what will be in Fedora Core 6 and the contributors. http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3626796 Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 17 22:16:58 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 03:46:58 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Xen and Fedora Message-ID: <44E4EADA.6070903@fedoraproject.org> Hi http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/52397.html "LinuxInsider: What is the biggest new development in Xen virtualization software to watch for in the next few months? Crosby: Watch for product from Red Hat -- Fedora Core 6 is almost ready, with the latest Xen bits. This will evolve into RHEL 5. Powerful new SMP (symmetric multi-processing) scheduling support, enhanced support for VT and AMD V processors, a new shadow page table implementation and impressive performance gains for HVM (hardware virtual machine) guests..." Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Aug 18 14:34:50 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 20:04:50 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack Message-ID: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> Hi http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/06/08/17/177220.shtml Rahul From marc at mwiriadi.id.au Sun Aug 20 09:12:29 2006 From: marc at mwiriadi.id.au (Marc Wiriadisastra) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:12:29 +0800 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Interesting Article Message-ID: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/06/ubuntu_linux_a_threat_to_mac_o.html I'm sure you will find this an interesting read. One of the things that I found quite interesting is that apple seems to be alive and well. I personally don't know anyone that run apple computers so I was surprised by the statistics however. I find it quite disheartening the analogies that were presented. Are we missing something? or how should I put am I missing something? Is ubuntu that much better than fedora? If it is why is it? I know its a personal opinion but what specifically about it? Anyways would love others points of view. Regards, Marc From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 20 11:35:34 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:05:34 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> References: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <44E84906.3020801@fedoraproject.org> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/06/ubuntu_linux_a_threat_to_mac_o.html > > I'm sure you will find this an interesting read. One of the things that > I found quite interesting is that apple seems to be alive and well. > > I personally don't know anyone that run apple computers so I was > surprised by the statistics however. I find it quite disheartening the > analogies that were presented. > > Are we missing something? or how should I put am I missing something? > Is ubuntu that much better than fedora? If it is why is it? I know its > a personal opinion but what specifically about it? > > Anyways would love others points of view. > I am not sure associating being searched more to better is the right idea. We have had seen similar discussions on google trend search results too but I cant find out any common agreement on what that really means. Rahul From francesco.ugolini at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 20 13:09:33 2006 From: francesco.ugolini at fedoraproject.org (Francesco Ugolini) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 15:09:33 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <44E84906.3020801@fedoraproject.org> References: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> <44E84906.3020801@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <8d41e9670608200609p298c4a35id7cb4e6a6b69c258@mail.gmail.com> Apple today is not the Apple of 2004 or early, Apple now can be considered more Microsoft like than *nix like. I agree with those that considered to use Ubuntu instead of Apple Operating System but i think that Mac Os X and Ubuntu are different: the first one is a multimedia station, the second one is a productivity station. On 8/20/06, Rahul wrote: > Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > > http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/06/ubuntu_linux_a_threat_to_mac_o.html > > > > I'm sure you will find this an interesting read. One of the things that > > I found quite interesting is that apple seems to be alive and well. > > > > I personally don't know anyone that run apple computers so I was > > surprised by the statistics however. I find it quite disheartening the > > analogies that were presented. > > > > Are we missing something? or how should I put am I missing something? > > Is ubuntu that much better than fedora? If it is why is it? I know its > > a personal opinion but what specifically about it? > > > > Anyways would love others points of view. > > > > I am not sure associating being searched more to better is the right > idea. We have had seen similar discussions on google trend search > results too but I cant find out any common agreement on what that really > means. > > Rahul > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Sun Aug 20 16:12:27 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 11:12:27 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> References: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <44E889EB.30505@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Marc Wiriadisastra escribi?: > http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/06/ubuntu_linux_a_threat_to_mac_o.html > > > > I'm sure you will find this an interesting read. One of the things > that I found quite interesting is that apple seems to be alive and > well. > > I personally don't know anyone that run apple computers so I was > surprised by the statistics however. I find it quite disheartening > the analogies that were presented. > > Are we missing something? or how should I put am I missing > something? Is ubuntu that much better than fedora? If it is why is > it? I know its a personal opinion but what specifically about it? > In my opinion Ubuntu is more targeted towards the new users, it has many functions "dumbed" down for users, even if these "simplifications" come at the cost of security (sudo, anyone?), and it has also a large userbase because of this. Fedora on the other hand, is more targeted toward the "enthusiastic" users or "Linux power users" (without it being Debian). Also Ubuntu has a larger lifespan than Fedora, alas, (if I understand correctly) Ubuntu has releases in concordance with major GNOME releases, even if these are Ubuntu beta releases. I'm not sure that the focus of Fedora is to directly compete against Ubuntu as such, especially for new Linux users, however, derivative works could be done to produce a Fedora derivative distribution geared toward directly competing against Ubuntu (as in if it not being Fedora as such, could use Fedora's resources like the Extras, Livna, etc repositories). Linux can be as media focused as Apple's Mac OS X is, however there is one major encumbrance: patents and closed formats. As with any other platform is not the platform itself, but its applications, what grants the focus and/or userbase. > > Anyways would love others points of view. > > Regards, > > > Marc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE6InqXM+XOp70dwoRAjgEAJwOPQJ58xV8YLizusWKJPfKJw775ACfX6GO FC7oarpQcT8uzu/1z4j5zUE= =aT7+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sun Aug 20 16:21:22 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 21:51:22 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <44E889EB.30505@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> <44E889EB.30505@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <44E88C02.3090204@fedoraproject.org> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > In my opinion Ubuntu is more targeted towards the new users, it has > many functions "dumbed" down for users, even if these > "simplifications" come at the cost of security (sudo, anyone?), and it > has also a large userbase because of this. I wouldnt call sudo by default a big security tradeoff but we can do better. See https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-July/msg00814.html Fedora on the other hand, > is more targeted toward the "enthusiastic" users or "Linux power > users" (without it being Debian). That has been the case historically. I would like this to change. Also Ubuntu has a larger lifespan > than Fedora, alas, (if I understand correctly) For the usual Ubuntu releases, the life cycle is 1.5 years which is not that different from Fedora especially when considering Fedora Legacy. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LifeCycle Rahul From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Mon Aug 21 06:22:42 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 09:22:42 +0300 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> References: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <44E95132.7060308@nicubunu.ro> Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: > http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/06/ubuntu_linux_a_threat_to_mac_o.html ... > > Are we missing something? or how should I put am I missing something? > Is ubuntu that much better than fedora? If it is why is it? I know its > a personal opinion but what specifically about it? > > Anyways would love others points of view. From what I see, the most impressive feature in Ubuntu seems to be its hype making machine. Or should I say the fanboy recruiting machine? This is a department where historically Fedora and Red Hat does not shine (even Novell is louder here). I do not know to what degree this is intentional (maybe the desire to not create unfounded expectations), but it certainly fired back in the early days of Fedora. It seems to improve, but very slowly. -- nicu Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From n.losito at yahoo.it Mon Aug 21 15:08:04 2006 From: n.losito at yahoo.it (Nicola Losito) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:08:04 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> Il giorno 18/ago/06, alle ore 16:34, Rahul ha scritto: > Hi > > http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/06/08/17/177220.shtml Does the interview actually ends up with Max saying "Which is why I think a lot of the OSS "religious wars" don't make a lot of sense." ?? If so i am a bit disappointed :-) That's because on the last question "Have you tried Ubuntu yourself? Is there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does better than Fedora?" Max didn't actually answered. He cites the main site/wiki efficency and the fist second impression of a missing NetworkManager but then he omits to talk about the obvious better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu users (fade effects, fast user switching, general graphical consinstency [1]). Ubuntu was born to be, and it's still developed to be, "Linux for Human Beings". Like my mom, or my friend which has studied literature, or anyone. Fedora is a 360? open pourpouse distribution. With time and skill you can turn it into anything you like or want it to be. If that's our goal fine, go ahead. If we want to appeal more and more people, and to get them come to use we should think new strategies, the couple that comes to my mind are (i think) near the actual Board goals (as stated in the interview): - the Core + Extras + Community package separation should be clearly resolved. The Ubuntu or Mandriva approach is (to me) the winner: core (as universe or main) + extras (multiverse or contrib) + jpackage (java related) + PLF/non-free and STOP. No more livna/rpmforge dualism, nor a dozen self referring repo for a specific task (each one on his server) - some enhancements in the graphical behaviour of our window managers (but i'd like to talk about them in the desktop list). Hope that my english was not too rusty to be understood. -- Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito http://koolinus.wordpress.com http://www.koolinus.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n.losito at yahoo.it Mon Aug 21 15:12:59 2006 From: n.losito at yahoo.it (Nicola Losito) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:12:59 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <44E95132.7060308@nicubunu.ro> References: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> <44E95132.7060308@nicubunu.ro> Message-ID: <0B28B4B5-2908-47B4-BF0D-82940C66906B@yahoo.it> Il giorno 21/ago/06, alle ore 08:22, Nicu Buculei ha scritto: > Marc Wiriadisastra wrote: >> http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2006/06/ >> ubuntu_linux_a_threat_to_mac_o.html > ... >> Are we missing something? or how should I put am I missing something? >> Is ubuntu that much better than fedora? If it is why is it? :-) Something's in the air ... just few days ago I wrote on the "exitement" derivating from a Linux distribution [1] > From what I see, the most impressive feature in Ubuntu seems to be its > hype making machine. Or should I say the fanboy recruiting machine? As i've said in another mail today Ubuntu was started and it's been developed to ATTRACT the common computer user to the free / open source software side of things. Each of their move has been made clear, easy to get, and "light" to read. And this attracts people (as we all in the linux community has witnessed in those last 2 years). > This is a department where historically Fedora and Red Hat does not > shine (even Novell is louder here). Funny, "Reverend" Ted [2] commented to me that I was "correct that Novell could be doing much better on this." > I do not know to what degree this is intentional (maybe the desire > to not create unfounded > expectations), but it certainly fired back in the early days of > Fedora. It seems to improve, but very slowly. Well, after reading Max's interview on /. this can be seen as a mistake from Red Hat's side at the time of the "splitting". We do have to re-think to our "voice" on the Fedora .... Planet Fedora is great, we should try to convert that energy into the wiki/ main site. c ya [1] = http://koolinus.wordpress.com/2006/08/17/geek-buzz-and-real-world/ [2] = http://reverendted.wordpress.com/ -- Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito http://www.koolinus.net http://koolinus.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 21 15:24:24 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:54:24 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> Message-ID: <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> Nicola Losito wrote: > > Il giorno 18/ago/06, alle ore 16:34, Rahul ha scritto: > >> Hi >> >> http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/06/08/17/177220.shtml > > Does the interview actually ends up with Max saying "Which is why I > think a lot of the OSS "religious wars" don't make a lot of sense." ?? > > If so i am a bit disappointed :-) You want religious wars? Dont be silly. > That's because on the last question "Have you tried Ubuntu yourself? Is > there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does better than Fedora?" Max > didn't actually answered. > > He cites the main site/wiki efficency and the fist second impression of > a missing NetworkManager but then he omits to talk about the obvious > better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu users (fade effects, fast user > switching, general graphical consinstency [1]). I cant see any obviously better desktop experience. I suppose Max Spevack didnt see one that is worth pointing out as a major difference either. Cant talk about what fade effects and general graphical consistency since they are not specific enough for me to understand what you are referring to. The implementation of fast user switching has problems with multi user terminals so its hidden by default in the menu. You can of course enable it yourself if the problems dont affect your usage. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=175178 Other related bug reports https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=186685 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=186685 All of these were documented by me in http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Bugs/FC5Common linked from the release notes. > > Ubuntu was born to be, and it's still developed to be, "Linux for Human > Beings". I dont adore that quote. What are we developing Fedora for if not human beings or are people who use other distributions aliens? ;-) Like my mom, or my friend which has studied literature, or > anyone. Fedora is a 360? open pourpouse distribution. With time and > skill you can turn it into anything you like or want it to be. > > If that's our goal fine, go ahead. To the right amount of balance yes. The perl quote is appropriate here. "Making simple things easy, and difficult things possible" > > If we want to appeal more and more people, and to get them come to use > we should think new strategies, the couple that comes to my mind are (i > think) near the actual Board goals (as stated in the interview): > > - the Core + Extras + Community package separation should be clearly > resolved. > The Ubuntu or Mandriva approach is (to me) the winner: core (as universe > or main) + extras (multiverse or contrib) + jpackage (java related) + > PLF/non-free and STOP. No more livna/rpmforge dualism, nor a dozen self > referring repo for a specific task (each one on his server) Core+Extras universe similar to other distributions already exist. Jpackage is already a common repository. Livna exists as a third party repository since Fedora does not support or include non-free software within the distribution. What we are doing is moving is *away* from the model of multiple repositories into a single unified repository. Not dozens. Not even two. Just one single repository. Of course every distribution has third party repositories and we cant nor do we need to do anything about that. > > - some enhancements in the graphical behaviour of our window managers > (but i'd like to talk about them in the desktop list). > Yes. Please do and be very specific. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 21 15:26:35 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 20:56:35 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <0B28B4B5-2908-47B4-BF0D-82940C66906B@yahoo.it> References: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> <44E95132.7060308@nicubunu.ro> <0B28B4B5-2908-47B4-BF0D-82940C66906B@yahoo.it> Message-ID: <44E9D0AB.40003@fedoraproject.org> Nicola Losito wrote: > We do have to re-think to our "voice" on the Fedora .... Planet Fedora > is great, we should try to convert that energy into the wiki/main site. > Are you willing to contribute? http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/PloneToDo Rahul From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Mon Aug 21 16:56:13 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 11:56:13 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <44E88C02.3090204@fedoraproject.org> References: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> <44E889EB.30505@prodigy.net.mx> <44E88C02.3090204@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <44E9E5AD.4000708@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rahul escribi?: > Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > >> In my opinion Ubuntu is more targeted towards the new users, it has >> many functions "dumbed" down for users, even if these >> "simplifications" come at the cost of security (sudo, anyone?), and it >> has also a large userbase because of this. > > I wouldnt call sudo by default a big security tradeoff but we can do > better. See > https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-extras-list/2006-July/msg00814.html > I know there are better models, even the PAM access controls I first ever saw in Red Hat impressed me quite a bit, starting graphically an administrative tool, and have the root password prompt is and was awesome. However either more and more admin tasks have a graphical frontend to use the same model or other model should be put in place altogether... Like PolicyKit, as you mention. > > Fedora on the other hand, >> is more targeted toward the "enthusiastic" users or "Linux power >> users" (without it being Debian). > > That has been the case historically. I would like this to change. And I'm doing my part. I have helped a lot of my friends and family to migrate to Linux using Fedora as the path, I won't deny that at first, especially with Yarrow and Tettnang Fedora kept its "elitist" approach of being an enthusiast-only distro. Still I introduced it to a great many people and thankfully, many of them are still using it. > > > Also Ubuntu has a larger lifespan >> than Fedora, alas, (if I understand correctly) > > For the usual Ubuntu releases, the life cycle is 1.5 years which is > not that different from Fedora especially when considering Fedora > Legacy. > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LifeCycle > > Rahul I understand this, but only a couple months ago I helped upgrade a friend to Core 5 from Core 3, and the main reason for the update was that there are no officially endorsed OpenOffice.org 2.0.x packages for Core 3 or any of the Legacy maintained distros, for that matter. Today I'm upgrading my home server to Core 5 too from Tettnang, because I want to use official packages like PHP 5, more recent MySQL builds, etc, on it. This is what I meant by lifespan. Having security updates and bugfixes is good, and OK, but without the benefits from newer versions of the programs, you are pretty much "forced" to upgrade to a new version pretty much as soon as your current distro is moved to Legacy. I'm not asking for this to change, after all I knew that this was going to be the case with Fedora, as it IS part of what makes Fedora, Fedora. But I wanted to point out that in the case of Ubuntu, for its users the greater lifespan is good, as they have upgrades, updates and bugfixes heavily worked on for 18 months, before a distro upgrade. In the case of Fedora this is at most for 12 months before moving into Legacy; and even then, some times even when the next version is released the prior automatically stops getting new versions of programs and is stalled. Not that this is 100% true, but it is for quite a bit of packages (glibc, gcc, etc, etc), but at least in the case of GCC this can induce serious problems. Historically and traditionally Fedora is not to be used on "production environments" as it being a community driven distro and the "playground for RHEL", serves more to test a particular or group of technologies to be included in RHEL (I KNOW that is not the case, but until recently that was the general perception of Fedora amongst Linux savvy users), however I'm glad that Fedora has started to have a life of its own and is less and less tied to RedHat in terms of the direction the distribution as a whole is taking and letting the community more and more participate on it. I'm glad that Fedora is less and less seen as the "Red Hat's community pet project" and more as what it really is: A community driven project. Still some users feel "distant" from the project and don't know how to get involved on it (I know I felt that way for some time). In general I think Fedora has made some real strides into changing how the community perceives the project and to redefine itself. So it is actually good to know the clarification that Fedora actually is heading in a direction where it'd be in direct competition with Ubuntu in the good sense, as competing to one-another will only lead to positive things on both sides and to improve the user experience with both distributions, which in the end will reflect on more Linux users... That can only be a good thing in my book. > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE6eWsXM+XOp70dwoRAh2fAJ9QXNySVgYIVOK4rxTJbsbI3xVKtQCdEX7b BVNdddDVMlBuHZGwby5vxok= =Q0Tw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Mon Aug 21 17:03:15 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 22:33:15 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <44E9E5AD.4000708@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> <44E889EB.30505@prodigy.net.mx> <44E88C02.3090204@fedoraproject.org> <44E9E5AD.4000708@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <44E9E753.2060301@fedoraproject.org> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: . Having security > updates and bugfixes is good, and OK, but without the benefits from > newer versions of the programs, you are pretty much "forced" to > upgrade to a new version pretty much as soon as your current distro is > moved to Legacy. I'm not asking for this to change, after all I knew > that this was going to be the case with Fedora, as it IS part of what > makes Fedora, Fedora. But I wanted to point out that in the case of > Ubuntu, for its users the greater lifespan is good, as they have > upgrades, updates and bugfixes heavily worked on for 18 months, before > a distro upgrade. In Fedora the updates during a release tend to be much more closer to upstream than other distributions. For example, Ubuntu does not update to upstream kernels post-release unlike Fedora (which has its pros and cons). So you will have to clarify what you mean by the above. In the case of Fedora this is at most for 12 months > before moving into Legacy; and even then, some times even when the > next version is released the prior automatically stops getting new > versions of programs and is stalled. Not that this is 100% true, but > it is for quite a bit of packages (glibc, gcc, etc, etc), but at least > in the case of GCC this can induce serious problems. Any major upgrade include core components has potential to introduce problems, yes. Rahul From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Mon Aug 21 17:38:44 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 12:38:44 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <44E9E753.2060301@fedoraproject.org> References: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> <44E889EB.30505@prodigy.net.mx> <44E88C02.3090204@fedoraproject.org> <44E9E5AD.4000708@prodigy.net.mx> <44E9E753.2060301@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <44E9EFA4.6020508@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rahul escribi?: > Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: . Having security >> updates and bugfixes is good, and OK, but without the benefits >> from newer versions of the programs, you are pretty much "forced" >> to upgrade to a new version pretty much as soon as your current >> distro is moved to Legacy. I'm not asking for this to change, >> after all I knew that this was going to be the case with Fedora, >> as it IS part of what makes Fedora, Fedora. But I wanted to point >> out that in the case of Ubuntu, for its users the greater >> lifespan is good, as they have upgrades, updates and bugfixes >> heavily worked on for 18 months, before a distro upgrade. > > In Fedora the updates during a release tend to be much more closer > to upstream than other distributions. For example, Ubuntu does not > update to upstream kernels post-release unlike Fedora (which has > its pros and cons). So you will have to clarify what you mean by > the above. My point being that as soon as any version of Fedora is moved to Legacy, the updates seem to stall, and only bugfixes and security updates are made for those distros, i.e no more updated packages (like the case of OOo 2.0 for Core 3, even when it was still "current" when Stentz had OOo 2 and Heidelberg stalled at 1.1.3), I didn't think OOo was a core component. Certainly that's why a newer version is made available. However as soon as a new version is released, and before the "current" one is moved to Legacy, many updates stall and only security fixes and bug fixes are issued, at least for packages in Core, while Extras still undergo heavy updating. I know a lot of distributions don't keep in sync with the upstream packages, if any, I'd guess only Fedora and Gentoo do that anymore. For Ubuntu, I guess is more like it was with the old Red Hat, not being as current but heavily worked on. > > > In the case of Fedora this is at most for 12 months >> before moving into Legacy; and even then, some times even when >> the next version is released the prior automatically stops >> getting new versions of programs and is stalled. Not that this is >> 100% true, but it is for quite a bit of packages (glibc, gcc, >> etc, etc), but at least in the case of GCC this can induce >> serious problems. > > Any major upgrade include core components has potential to > introduce problems, yes. > > Rahul Which is why newer versions of the distro as a whole are made available every ~6 months... maybe only thing missing is yum upgradeablity through from version to version, but that's been previously discussed, and while feasible, it would also mean a lot of left overs,which could or not get in the way of operation. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE6e9SXM+XOp70dwoRApU+AJoDNpSYqi3eACpuqtOMV1rmV6lcAACdG8a6 MShiRgzax1pt3wUApYwhMR0= =I/aW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mattdm at mattdm.org Mon Aug 21 17:41:36 2006 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 13:41:36 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Interesting Article In-Reply-To: <44E9EFA4.6020508@prodigy.net.mx> References: <1156065149.6796.2.camel@localhost> <44E889EB.30505@prodigy.net.mx> <44E88C02.3090204@fedoraproject.org> <44E9E5AD.4000708@prodigy.net.mx> <44E9E753.2060301@fedoraproject.org> <44E9EFA4.6020508@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <20060821174136.GA26116@jadzia.bu.edu> On Mon, Aug 21, 2006 at 12:38:44PM -0500, Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > the "current" one is moved to Legacy, many updates stall and only > security fixes and bug fixes are issued, at least for packages in > Core, while Extras still undergo heavy updating. Yeah -- this needs to be fixed so that Extras doesn't churn so much. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From n.losito at yahoo.it Mon Aug 21 22:03:38 2006 From: n.losito at yahoo.it (Nicola Losito) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 00:03:38 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: Il giorno 21/ago/06, alle ore 17:24, Rahul ha scritto: > Nicola Losito wrote: >>> >>> http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/06/08/17/177220.shtml >> Does the interview actually ends up with Max saying "Which is why >> I think a lot of the OSS "religious wars" don't make a lot of >> sense." ?? >> If so i am a bit disappointed :-) > > You want religious wars? Dont be silly. Uhm, let me clarify ... I was disappointed by the sudden end of the interiew, not for the missed useless whatever war :-) Having clarified that ..... let me move on the rest. Please keep in mind that english is not my first language, and probably i am driven to use some "weird" way of saying things (not to mention grammar mistakes). So keeping in mind that i like and endorse the work in Fedora i ask my reader to try to catch my points .... >> That's because on the last question "Have you tried Ubuntu >> yourself? Is there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does better >> than Fedora?" Max didn't actually answered. >> He cites the main site/wiki efficency and the fist second >> impression of a missing NetworkManager but then he omits to talk >> about the obvious better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu users >> (fade effects, fast user switching, general graphical consinstency >> [1]). > > I cant see any obviously better desktop experience. I suppose Max > Spevack didnt see one that is worth pointing out as a major > difference either. This is a very "tech" way to say things. Like man pages, if something is worth mention it's written in the man page. Unfortunately I see/feel life being different than that. When you install and run Ubuntu you got enabled a bunch of features that doesn't make feel the user on his own (Gnome sounds enabled, when i'm supposed to enter the sudo password the screen goes dark leaving only the appropriate window "illuminated" and some other fancier - yes, useless, but fancier things). Generally i see that "heavy" or "experienced" Linux user doesn't bother too much with this kind of thematic (like me with video proprietary drivers, never installed them, never got to see if i could get a benefit from them). For sure in 10 minutes the 90% of FC contributor can take them on at will. But then again the average Joe feels these fancier tricks enabled and running since the first boot like "attention to details" (again, seeing people's reaction around me). > The implementation of fast user switching has problems with multi > user terminals so its hidden by default in the menu. You can of > course enable it yourself if the problems dont affect your usage. > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=175178 I already had an answer some time ago with this topic, but haven't go the time to read more and then try to make it work for myself. My point is that the other distro i enjoy "testing" have it and reading the answer "it's in bugzilla since $date" doesn't make nice impression. It's clear that's a minor "bug", but i can see many people with always on internet connection leaving their session opened, locking their session when they're not at home and leaving a login screen available to parents for a second graphical use of the machine. Comfortable feature, if you think. >> Ubuntu was born to be, and it's still developed to be, "Linux for >> Human Beings". > > I dont adore that quote. What are we developing Fedora for if not > human beings or are people who use other distributions aliens? ;-) Sometimes seems so .... have you ever tried using yum, with 3rd parties repos enabled, on a 56k pay-per-time line ? ? Back when i was one of those FC seemed to me a distro for privileged aliens with fast/flat connections. >> If we want to appeal more and more people, and to get them come to >> use we should think new strategies, the couple that comes to my >> mind are (i think) near the actual Board goals (as stated in the >> interview): >> - the Core + Extras + Community package separation should be >> clearly resolved. >> The Ubuntu or Mandriva approach is (to me) the winner: core (as >> universe or main) + extras (multiverse or contrib) + jpackage >> (java related) + PLF/non-free and STOP. No more livna/rpmforge >> dualism, nor a dozen self referring repo for a specific task (each >> one on his server) > > Core+Extras universe similar to other distributions already exist. > Jpackage is already a common repository. Livna exists as a third > party repository since Fedora does not support or include non-free > software within the distribution. Here i could make a mistake but: - http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components it's clear in the division of what's "ubuntu" or "canonical" and what's not and also ... > What we are doing is moving is *away* from the model of multiple > repositories into a single unified repository. Not dozens. Not even > two. Just one single repository. Of course every distribution has > third party repositories and we cant nor do we need to do anything > about that. 3rd party repo are natural in our free software world, everyone has different needs and preferences. What i find "insane" {meaning not healthy, not referring to the crazy meaning} is the actual separation in Extras (which thanks to God and all the good people out there is growing each and every day in package number) and then the "Two Towers" of Livna "vs" dag-dries- freshrpms world and the experiences coming from a partial use of them or worst an "enabled=1" of all of them. Fedora Project should speak loud on this inconsistency (for the record i have 14 different repositories in my yum.repos.d, some enabled some not, and i do not think it's easy to get the reason of this to the "non introduced"). These are part of the "problems" i have to talk to friends online (and not), also in my LUG, when referring to why choose Fedora distribution for installation, so these are topic i'm interested to study in my little and fragmented spare time. -- Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito http://www.koolinus.net http://koolinus.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 22 04:16:29 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 09:46:29 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <44EA851D.6090102@fedoraproject.org> Nicola Losito wrote: > > When you install and run Ubuntu you got enabled a bunch of features that > doesn't make feel the user on his own (Gnome sounds enabled, when i'm > supposed to enter the sudo password the screen goes dark leaving only > the appropriate window "illuminated" and some other fancier - yes, > useless, but fancier things). So boils down to eye candy basically. > > >> The implementation of fast user switching has problems with multi user >> terminals so its hidden by default in the menu. You can of course >> enable it yourself if the problems dont affect your usage. >> >> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=175178 > > I already had an answer some time ago with this topic, but haven't go > the time to read more and then try to make it work for myself. My point > is that the other distro i enjoy "testing" have it and reading the > answer "it's in bugzilla since $date" doesn't make nice impression. > It's clear that's a minor "bug", but i can see many people with always > on internet connection leaving their session opened, locking their > session when they're not at home and leaving a login screen available to > parents for a second graphical use of the machine. Comfortable feature, > if you think. Its not really a minor bug. If you have multiple users working on a console, how does device permissions get set that one user doesnt lock the other? > Sometimes seems so .... have you ever tried using yum, with 3rd parties > repos enabled, on a 56k pay-per-time line ? ? > Back when i was one of those FC seemed to me a distro for privileged > aliens with fast/flat connections. Why would I? I dont use third party repositories. If I need to work on dialups, there is a way to configure yum to use local repositories or media and Fedora might not be the right choice for me at that point. > > Here i could make a mistake but: > - http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components > it's clear in the division of what's "ubuntu" or "canonical" and what's > not and also ... It is pretty simple for Fedora and it is documented in Fedora wiki pages. Fedora Core is maintained by Red Hat and Fedora Extras, Fedora Legacy is community maintained. > > 3rd party repo are natural in our free software world, everyone has > different needs and preferences. > > What i find "insane" {meaning not healthy, not referring to the crazy > meaning} is the actual separation in Extras (which thanks to God and all > the good people out there is growing each and every day in package > number) and then the "Two Towers" of Livna "vs" dag-dries-freshrpms > world and the experiences coming from a partial use of them or worst an > "enabled=1" of all of them. All of these references are about third party repositories. Fedora Project has absolutely no say on what goes on with them. The formal repositories are both enabled by default, Anaconda would support them both during installation from FC6 onwards and they follow the same packaging guidelines etc. The differences are in the way there are internally organized which doesnt affect the end user at all. > > Fedora Project should speak loud on this inconsistency (for the record i > have 14 different repositories in my yum.repos.d, some enabled some not, > and i do not think it's easy to get the reason of this to the "non > introduced"). There is no inconsistency at the project level and we cant control third party repositories. There are contributors from kde-redhat, freshrpms, atrpms,newrpms and other repositories working in Fedora Extras to . Dag doesnt seem to host Fedora repositories anymore. Nrpms closed down citing the increasing community participating in Fedora Extras. Rpmforge has announced compatibility with Fedora Core and Fedora Extras. Things are getting better but if you want to install random repositories that's really your choice. Rahul From mspevack at redhat.com Tue Aug 22 22:37:26 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 18:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: Thought I'd chime in a little bit here: >>> That's because on the last question "Have you tried Ubuntu yourself? >>> Is there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does better than Fedora?" >>> Max didn't actually answered. He cites the main site/wiki efficency >>> and the fist second impression of a missing NetworkManager but then he >>> omits to talk about the obvious better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu >>> users (fade effects, fast user switching, general graphical >>> consinstency [1]). I talked about it -- I think you disagree with my answer, but that's perfectly fine! We we run Gnome, and they run Gnome. To me, Gnome is Gnome. People might tweak it a bit here and there, but it's basically the same across distributions. If one distribution is making mager changes, then shouldn't they be trying to move all of that upstream, in the spirit of being a good open source citizen? >> Fedora does not support or include non-free software within the >> distribution. That will never change. > Fedora Project should speak loud on this inconsistency (for the record i > have 14 different repositories in my yum.repos.d, some enabled some not, > and i do not think it's easy to get the reason of this to the "non > introduced"). Wow. 14? What are you doing with 14 repos? Core, Extras, and maybe 1 third party repo should be almost anything that someone needs unless there's some very specialized work happening. What benefit do you gain from so many additional repos? To me, that seems like it would be a lot of trouble, and a recipe for instability in the system. -- Max Spevack + http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MaxSpevack + gpg key -- http://spevack.org/max.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From mattdm at mattdm.org Wed Aug 23 01:17:15 2006 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:17:15 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> On Tue, Aug 22, 2006 at 06:37:26PM -0400, Max Spevack wrote: > Wow. 14? What are you doing with 14 repos? > Core, Extras, and maybe 1 third party repo should be almost anything that > someone needs unless there's some very specialized work happening. Well, here's the repo count for your example: core core-debuginfo core-source development development-debuginfo development-source extras-development extras-development-debuginfo extras-development-source extras extras-debuginfo extras-source legacy-updates legacy-testing updates updates-debuginfo updates-source updates-testing updates-testing-debuginfo updates-testing-source unnamedthirdparty-development unnamedthirdparty-development-debuginfo unnamedthirdparty-development-source unnamedthirdparty unnamedthirdparty-debuginfo unnamedthirdparty-source unnamedthirdparty-testing unnamedthirdparty-testing-debug unnamedthirdparty-testing-source That's 29 right there. Some not enabled, but the earlier poster said some weren't. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From n.losito at yahoo.it Wed Aug 23 07:29:41 2006 From: n.losito at yahoo.it (Nicola Losito) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:29:41 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <6FA506C5-2012-453A-BA9D-E3E225AECE68@yahoo.it> Il giorno 23/ago/06, alle ore 00:37, Max Spevack ha scritto: >>>> That's because on the last question "Have you tried Ubuntu >>>> yourself? Is there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does >>>> better than Fedora?" Max didn't actually answered. He cites the >>>> main site/wiki efficency and the fist second impression of a >>>> missing NetworkManager but then he omits to talk about the >>>> obvious better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu users (fade >>>> effects, fast user switching, general graphical consinstency [1]). > > I talked about it -- I think you disagree with my answer, but > that's perfectly fine! No Max, I don't disagree with your analisys, with is punctual and realistic. I've said you didn't answer the question because you, trying to avoid any kind of "attack" or give the littlest aperture to "distro wars" makers, didn't get inside the analisys of your Ubuntu experience telling us what you like and what not about how the distro was "summoned up" {damn, i don't have a dictionary at hand and i miss some words, hope you understand me}. > If one distribution is making mager changes, then shouldn't they be > trying to move all of that upstream, in the spirit of being a good > open source citizen? Absolutely >>> Fedora does not support or include non-free software within the >>> distribution. > > That will never change. I'd like to read "Fedora does not encourage, endorse or include" .... leaving open some doors. In any case in the mail exchange with Raul i've said that I'd like to see a more consistend distribution of software into an handful of repo, and not the actual plethora, never said that Fedora should include mp3 proprietary codec or whatever :-) >> Fedora Project should speak loud on this inconsistency (for the >> record i have 14 different repositories in my yum.repos.d, some >> enabled some not, and i do not think it's easy to get the reason >> of this to the "non introduced"). > > Wow. 14? What are you doing with 14 repos? > Core, Extras, and maybe 1 third party repo should be almost > anything that someone needs unless there's some very specialized > work happening. Yes, 14. Essentially the one's available in FedoraTracker's list, avoiding ATrpms and JPackage which gave me problems several times. > What benefit do you gain from so many additional repos? In this way i can have, test and use a bigger list of "free" software. The virtual PDF printer, the multimedia player .... the external repos take care of the "desiderata" packages in Extras and them some more. > To me, that seems like it would be a lot of trouble, and a recipe > for instability in the system. Yes, indeed. And that's why i am discussing it :-) -- Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito http://koolinus.wordpress.com http://www.koolinus.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From n.losito at yahoo.it Wed Aug 23 07:36:47 2006 From: n.losito at yahoo.it (Nicola Losito) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 09:36:47 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <44EA851D.6090102@fedoraproject.org> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <44EA851D.6090102@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1881C9C1-8EED-4FFD-93F2-6F94A303B4C7@yahoo.it> Il giorno 22/ago/06, alle ore 06:16, Rahul ha scritto: > Nicola Losito wrote: > >> When you install and run Ubuntu you got enabled a bunch of >> features that doesn't make feel the user on his own (Gnome sounds >> enabled, when i'm supposed to enter the sudo password the screen >> goes dark leaving only the appropriate window "illuminated" and >> some other fancier - yes, useless, but fancier things). > > So boils down to eye candy basically. Nope. It boild down paying attention to fancier, little, useful visual and "desktop" tricks, that enhance user experience (hidden window asking for root password instead of something that focuses the attention and so on ... >> Sometimes seems so .... have you ever tried using yum, with 3rd >> parties repos enabled, on a 56k pay-per-time line ? ? >> Back when i was one of those FC seemed to me a distro for >> privileged aliens with fast/flat connections. > > Why would I? I dont use third party repositories. Not a viable solution for a lot of people, and not realistic to think that *now* anyone would drop the use of something they're accoustomed to have (IMHO). Also, even if Livna or RPMforge are not official "endorsed", in the Fedora users I know *everyone* who's got it installed on a personal desktop have got them enabled. So ignoring their exsitence for me is "childish" ... for the lack of a better word of my knowledge :-( > If I need to work on dialups, there is a way to configure yum to > use local repositories Provided you can manage to get one in some other way ;-) > and Fedora might not be the right choice for me at that point. And this isn't a point to be worked on ? The 90% of people haven't got a nice connection, do we want to cut them out _also_ because we haven't thought a way to go in their "direction" ?? Italy, one of the 7th most rich and industrialized country in the world has still no fibre connection, and *DSL are "slow", strongly asymetrical and most of the time people have got pay per hours connections. What in Eastern Europe ? South America ? and so on ... >> Here i could make a mistake but: >> - http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components >> it's clear in the division of what's "ubuntu" or "canonical" and >> what's not and also ... > > It is pretty simple for Fedora and it is documented in Fedora wiki > pages. Fedora Core is maintained by Red Hat and Fedora Extras, > Fedora Legacy is community maintained. OK but to me it seems you're avoiding to see my point :-) In universe / multiverse we have 99% of any additional software one can use. Then we can se "backports" (and these are self explainatory) a "commercial" repo by Canonical (which get some way of agreement to distribute Opera or Real with contracts that - i think - could be obtained by any distro provided there's interest into it - Skype in Mandriva installation media comes to my mind too). The rest of "ubuntu 3rd party repos" are for "elite" needs into specific areas. For Fedora we have (at least) the repos listed here: http://www.fedoratracker.org/tracker.py?mode=repoSearch where there's no clear policy of what goes where. > All of these references are about third party repositories. Fedora > Project has absolutely no say on what goes on with them. >> Fedora Project should speak loud on this inconsistency (for the >> record i have 14 different repositories in my yum.repos.d, some >> enabled some not, and i do not think it's easy to get the reason >> of this to the "non introduced"). > > There is no inconsistency at the project level and we cant control > third party repositories. I know Fedora can't drive anyone into anything. But there could be a strict policy on how to provide packages for the distro. This issue i think it's related to the licences present in FC that's been discussed some (recent) time ago here or in the board list. When the licence's type area will become more "clear" we should find a way to make people come into Extras or to Extras-nonfree (to say) instead of making their "personal" repo, summoning up the community efforts in few areas. I'd like my distro to have the major number of precompiled packages available, no matter what. > Things are getting better but if you want to install random > repositories that's really your choice. Indeed. But if I need these repos to get the software i need /want to test to run my machine productively and i have permanent, several issues with them i'll change my distro. Again Fedora has come close to my need with 5 and it's mono inclusion and such, but still it's too "complicated" to make it run on many of my friend's machines since the issues i see using the various repos (or yum when they're with slow lines). I have been present at the times at Fedora and at the time for Ubuntu, and they since the beginning have fought to be stable as Debian and easy as RH/SuSE. Fedora has been (to cite Max's word) "We strive to produce a quality distribution of free software that is cutting-edge, pushes the envelope of new open source technology, and is also robust enough that it can be relied on for server or desktop use." To me it somewhat sounds like "Fedora is an hacker toy, build to pleasure is quest for knowledge without crashing every now and then", which is fine, but then at some point I, as user, and many like me i think, may leave this land. Thanks for reading :-) -- Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito http://www.koolinus.net http://koolinus.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro Wed Aug 23 07:56:03 2006 From: nicu_fedora at nicubunu.ro (Nicu Buculei) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:56:03 +0300 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <1881C9C1-8EED-4FFD-93F2-6F94A303B4C7@yahoo.it> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <44EA851D.6090102@fedoraproject.org> <1881C9C1-8EED-4FFD-93F2-6F94A303B4C7@yahoo.it> Message-ID: <44EC0A13.3050902@nicubunu.ro> Nicola Losito wrote: > > Il giorno 22/ago/06, alle ore 06:16, Rahul ha scritto: > >> So boils down to eye candy basically. > > Nope. > It boild down paying attention to fancier, little, useful visual and > "desktop" tricks, that enhance user experience (hidden window asking for > root password instead of something that focuses the attention and so on ... And even if it was "just" eye candy, having eye candy is not a bad thing, it is important for a lot of people. [...] >> and Fedora might not be the right choice for me at that point. > > And this isn't a point to be worked on ? > The 90% of people haven't got a nice connection, do we want to cut them > out _also_ because we haven't thought a way to go in their "direction" ?? > Italy, one of the 7th most rich and industrialized country in the world > has still no fibre connection, and *DSL are "slow", strongly asymetrical > and most of the time people have got pay per hours connections. > What in Eastern Europe ? South America ? and so on ... Eastern Europe? Where I live options for _home users_ are either slow and unreliable neighborhood LAN or slow CATV. -- nicu Cool Fedora wallpapers: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro/wallpapers/ Open Clip Art Library: http://www.openclipart.org my Fedora stuff: http://fedora.nicubunu.ro From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Wed Aug 23 09:25:20 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 04:25:20 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <6FA506C5-2012-453A-BA9D-E3E225AECE68@yahoo.it> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <"916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E0 9 977DCD9D1"@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <"D3EF72E9-7BCF-479 0- 8C2A-679FFAB1E650"@yahoo.it> <6FA506C5-2012-453A-BA9D-E3E225AECE68@yahoo.it> Message-ID: <44EC1F00.9020304@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Nicola Losito escribi?: > > Il giorno 23/ago/06, alle ore 00:37, Max Spevack ha scritto: > >>>>> That's because on the last question "Have you tried Ubuntu >>>>> yourself? Is there, in your opinion, something Ubuntu does >>>>> better than Fedora?" Max didn't actually answered. He cites the >>>>> main site/wiki efficency and the fist second impression of a >>>>> missing NetworkManager but then he omits to talk about the >>>>> obvious better "dektop experience" for Ubuntu users (fade >>>>> effects, fast user switching, general graphical consinstency [1]). >> >> I talked about it -- I think you disagree with my answer, but >> that's perfectly fine! > > No Max, I don't disagree with your analisys, with is punctual and > realistic. > I've said you didn't answer the question because you, trying to > avoid any kind of "attack" or give the littlest aperture to "distro > wars" makers, didn't get inside the analisys of your Ubuntu > experience telling us what you like and what not about how the > distro was "summoned up" {damn, i don't have a dictionary at hand > and i miss some words, hope you understand me}. Even though I'd be most interested on hearing/reading what does Max think about Ubuntu, I'm not sure if his input on the subject more directly than what it was would have been all that beneficial, for the discussion and the whole Fedora "angle". However now knowing that Fedora is "no longer" a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any more (or so I deduce from some of the postings and points made by Rahul), I'd really be interested, as I tended to think that two niches were covered by either Ubuntu and Fedora. Fedora being more like Gentoo (without the whole "build it thyself" aspect) and being a distribution that could appeal easily to both GUI-inclined power users and CLI hardcore power users; while Ubuntu is usually associated with Linux-newbie users. Personally I'm always game for a solution and tool which would make setting something up easy and fast (usually this is associated with GUI tools), just as long as what it allows me to control is all I need to control, i.e, no further configuration/tweaking is required. Especially useful for stuff like Samba, for instance, as in the case of DNS or Apache, even though the GUI tools are mostly OK for inexperienced users, I still rather manually configure them manipulating the config files. Fedora, of course, is not the only distro to have this power, and many more have this ability, however on distros like SuSE, for instance, messing directly with the configuration files can even BREAK stuff up. > >>>> Fedora does not support or include non-free software within the >>>> distribution. >> >> That will never change. > > I'd like to read "Fedora does not encourage, endorse or include" > .... leaving open some doors. > In any case in the mail exchange with Raul i've said that I'd like > to see a more consistend distribution of software into an handful of > repo, and not the actual plethora, never said that Fedora should > include mp3 proprietary codec or whatever :-) This is such a delicate topic, I'm afraid. Not only because of the legal status of anything having to do with mp3 or proprietary codecs/formats, but the freedom us, the users, can have while using them as well (not only Fedora as a distro). > >> What benefit do you gain from so many additional repos? > > In this way i can have, test and use a bigger list of "free" > software. The virtual PDF printer, the multimedia player .... the > external repos take care of the "desiderata" packages in Extras and > them some more. I for one find it rather odd that I like to have at least two extra repos: Livna and Freshrpms. Mostly I manage everything from Livna that is not part of Fedora/Extras, while I use Fresh for a selected few packages. For some strange reason, I find Mplayer from Livna to be generally "better" (as subjective as that is) than the Freshrpms packaged one, however I find Xine from Freshrpms to be generally "better" than that of Livna... Go figure. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE7B7/XM+XOp70dwoRAmPiAJ4xtUg+wPp+cTpIq/y9GTmS1MHE0QCgl0vW Kq/qW3wOO1RTGJOL9h1klwY= =7eAc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 23 09:53:12 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:23:12 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <6FA506C5-2012-453A-BA9D-E3E225AECE68@yahoo.it> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <6FA506C5-2012-453A-BA9D-E3E225AECE68@yahoo.it> Message-ID: <44EC2588.4050509@fedoraproject.org> Nicola Losito wrote: > I'd like to read "Fedora does not encourage, endorse or include" .... > leaving open some doors. You said Fedora Project will not include mp3 codecs. Thats not going to change as long as it is a proprietary patent encumbered format. > In any case in the mail exchange with Raul i've said that I'd like to > see a more consistend distribution of software into an handful of repo, > and not the actual plethora, never said that Fedora should include mp3 > proprietary codec or whatever :-) Fedora Project only include three repositories officially - Fedora Core, Extras and Legacy. Thats just a handful. > > Yes, 14. > Essentially the one's available in FedoraTracker's list, avoiding ATrpms > and JPackage which gave me problems several times. > >> To me, that seems like it would be a lot of trouble, and a recipe for >> instability in the system. > > Yes, indeed. And that's why i am discussing it :-) > These are third party repositories you choose to install yourself. Why discuss that here? Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 23 10:09:58 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:39:58 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <1881C9C1-8EED-4FFD-93F2-6F94A303B4C7@yahoo.it> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <44EA851D.6090102@fedoraproject.org> <1881C9C1-8EED-4FFD-93F2-6F94A303B4C7@yahoo.it> Message-ID: <44EC2976.9050203@fedoraproject.org> Nicola Losito wrote: > > Il giorno 22/ago/06, alle ore 06:16, Rahul ha scritto: > >> Nicola Losito wrote: >> >>> When you install and run Ubuntu you got enabled a bunch of features >>> that doesn't make feel the user on his own (Gnome sounds enabled, >>> when i'm supposed to enter the sudo password the screen goes dark >>> leaving only the appropriate window "illuminated" and some other >>> fancier - yes, useless, but fancier things). >> >> So boils down to eye candy basically. > > Nope. > It boild down paying attention to fancier, little, useful visual and > "desktop" tricks, that enhance user experience (hidden window asking for > root password instead of something that focuses the attention and so on ... Are you referring to new dialog boxes that does not receive focus immediately? Thats a GNOME feature and has been in Fedora for the last couple of releases. > Why would I? I dont use third party repositories. > > Not a viable solution for a lot of people, and not realistic to think > that *now* anyone would drop the use of something they're accoustomed to > have (IMHO). Also, even if Livna or RPMforge are not official > "endorsed", in the Fedora users I know *everyone* who's got it installed > on a personal desktop have got them enabled. So ignoring their exsitence > for me is "childish" ... for the lack of a better word of my knowledge :-( What should we do about them? We cant officially endorse any third party repository especially ones that carry non-free software. > >> and Fedora might not be the right choice for me at that point. > > And this isn't a point to be worked on ? > The 90% of people haven't got a nice connection, do we want to cut them > out _also_ because we haven't thought a way to go in their "direction" ?? > Italy, one of the 7th most rich and industrialized country in the world > has still no fibre connection, and *DSL are "slow", strongly asymetrical > and most of the time people have got pay per hours connections. > What in Eastern Europe ? South America ? and so on ... Yum and Pirut is getting support to access and install packages from media. Pup is getting the ability to classify packages. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=188750 http://www.csh.rit.edu/~lewk/blog/2006/08/15/pup_enhancements This wouldnt solve the problem of getting updates over a dial up connection. >>> Here i could make a mistake but: >>> - http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components >>> it's clear in the division of what's "ubuntu" or "canonical" and >>> what's not and also ... >> >> It is pretty simple for Fedora and it is documented in Fedora wiki >> pages. Fedora Core is maintained by Red Hat and Fedora Extras, Fedora >> Legacy is community maintained. > > OK > but to me it seems you're avoiding to see my point :-) Just that your point was perhaps not clear to me. > > In universe / multiverse we have 99% of any additional software one can use. > Then we can se "backports" (and these are self explainatory) a > "commercial" repo by Canonical (which get some way of agreement to > distribute Opera or Real with contracts that - i think - could be > obtained by any distro provided there's interest into it - Skype in > Mandriva installation media comes to my mind too). The rest of "ubuntu > 3rd party repos" are for "elite" needs into specific areas. Again we dont support or include any software repositories that hold non-free software. Other than that I dont see any difference. > > For Fedora we have (at least) the repos listed here: > http://www.fedoratracker.org/tracker.py?mode=repoSearch > where there's no clear policy of what goes where. This is a community side which tracks all third party repositories. For formal repositories included with Fedora we have clear policies http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines > > I know Fedora can't drive anyone into anything. > But there could be a strict policy on how to provide packages for the > distro. For repositories included within Fedora there is one already as you can see above. This issue i think it's related to the licences present in FC > that's been discussed some (recent) time ago here or in the board list. > When the licence's type area will become more "clear" we should find a > way to make people come into Extras or to Extras-nonfree (to say) > instead of making their "personal" repo, summoning up the community > efforts in few areas. > > I'd like my distro to have the major number of precompiled packages > available, no matter what. > Fedora Project will only include Free and open source software. >> Things are getting better but if you want to install random >> repositories that's really your choice. > > Indeed. But if I need these repos to get the software i need /want to > test to run my machine productively and i have permanent, several issues > with them i'll change my distro. If install random repositories and have permanent issues with them you should discuss those issues with the repository maintainers. > > Again Fedora has come close to my need with 5 and it's mono inclusion > and such, but still it's too "complicated" to make it run on many of my > friend's machines since the issues i see using the various repos (or yum > when they're with slow lines). > > I have been present at the times at Fedora and at the time for Ubuntu, > and they since the beginning have fought to be stable as Debian and easy > as RH/SuSE. > > Fedora has been (to cite Max's word) "We strive to produce a quality > distribution of free software that is cutting-edge, pushes the envelope > of new open source technology, and is also robust enough that it can be > relied on for server or desktop use." > > To me it somewhat sounds like "Fedora is an hacker toy, build to > pleasure is quest for knowledge without crashing every now and then", > which is fine, but then at some point I, as user, and many like me i > think, may leave this land. > Thats a very strange way to read it. Being a robust platform for Free software is the opposite to a crashing hacker's toy. Rahul From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 23 10:13:10 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 15:43:10 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <44EC1F00.9020304@prodigy.net.mx> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <"916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E0 9 977DCD9D1"@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <"D3EF72E9-7BCF-479 0- 8C2A-679FFAB1E650"@yahoo.it> <6FA506C5-2012-453A-BA9D-E3E225AECE68@yahoo.it> <44EC1F00.9020304@prodigy.net.mx> Message-ID: <44EC2A36.70607@fedoraproject.org> Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > Even though I'd be most interested on hearing/reading what does Max > think about Ubuntu, I'm not sure if his input on the subject more > directly than what it was would have been all that beneficial, for the > discussion and the whole Fedora "angle". However now knowing that > Fedora is "no longer" a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any more > (or so I deduce from some of the postings and points made by Rahul), Right. We are interesting in driving the project to serve other needs along with the power users. > I'd really be interested, as I tended to think that two niches were > covered by either Ubuntu and Fedora. Fedora being more like Gentoo > (without the whole "build it thyself" aspect) and being a distribution > that could appeal easily to both GUI-inclined power users and CLI > hardcore power users; Yes. We need to continue that balance. Rahul From n.losito at yahoo.it Wed Aug 23 12:54:32 2006 From: n.losito at yahoo.it (Nicola Losito) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:54:32 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <44EC2976.9050203@fedoraproject.org> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <44EA851D.6090102@fedoraproject.org> <1881C9C1-8EED-4FFD-93F2-6F94A303B4C7@yahoo.it> <44EC2976.9050203@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: Il giorno 23/ago/06, alle ore 12:09, Rahul ha scritto: >> OK >> but to me it seems you're avoiding to see my point :-) > > Just that your point was perhaps not clear to me. It's a pity, because Gian Paolo has understood me, maybe his words are more clear than mine: [GPM original message] However now knowing that Fedora is "no longer" a "Linux power user/ enthusiast" distro any more (or so I deduce from some of the postings and points made by Rahul), I'd really be interested, as I tended to think that two niches were covered by either Ubuntu and Fedora. Fedora being more like Gentoo (without the whole "build it thyself" aspect) and being a distribution that could appeal easily to both GUI- inclined power users and CLI hardcore power users; while Ubuntu is usually associated with Linux-newbie users. [end of GPM original message] And also: [GPM message] Personally I'm always game for a solution and tool which would make setting something up easy and fast (usually this is associated with GUI tools), just as long as what it allows me to control is all I need to control, i.e, no further configuration/tweaking is required. [/end of GPM message] Given that "non free" or "troble maker" packages has to stay away from RedHat owned network (and so it's mirror) i then ask: - how comes there's so muck fragmentation in Extras, Livna, RPMforge and on - how can we ecourage them to put as much free software package in Extras leaving few non-GPL on an unique "non free" repos Also, I'm ignorant, but it would be nice to have a Fedora-NONUS repository for those who live outside the USA (a la Debian). I am insisting on package management policies becaus they are (for me, clearly) the strongest point of the Free Software movement and the easy availability of them could "convert" as much people as possibile (and here we are in marketing list, trying to "sell" our distro). When i have the occasion to let try "Linux" to some friend quite never I am in the condition to make him try Fedora, principally for the reason explained before. I would like to change that, and after the ease of installation comes the package available to the user and the configuration tool at disposal. -- Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito http://www.koolinus.net http://koolinus.wordpress.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 23 13:23:23 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 18:53:23 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <44EA851D.6090102@fedoraproject.org> <1881C9C1-8EED-4FFD-93F2-6F94A303B4C7@yahoo.it> <44EC2976.9050203@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <44EC56CB.30907@fedoraproject.org> Nicola Losito wrote: > > Given that "non free" or "troble maker" packages has to stay away from > RedHat owned network (and so it's mirror) i then ask: > - how comes there's so muck fragmentation in Extras, Livna, RPMforge and on Livna has non-free packages and Fedora Extras does not carry non-free packages though they are compatible with each other. RPMForge is a third party repository that has a goal on creating packages that work on many other distributions other than Fedora and hence cannot be merged with Fedora Extras. However they too are compatible with Fedora Extras http://rpmforge.net/user/faq/#compatibility-and-mixing > - how can we ecourage them to put as much free software package in > Extras leaving few non-GPL on an unique "non free" repos Many of the maintainers working on both these repositories contribute to Fedora Extras too but a merge for above cited reasons cannot be done. In short we have different goals but work on common grounds wherever possible. That is the opposite of fragmentation to me. > > Also, I'm ignorant, but it would be nice to have a Fedora-NONUS > repository for those who live outside the USA (a la Debian). We dont want any non-free repositories associated with Fedora at all and that is unlikely to change considering our objectives. This is not just a question of what is allowed legally. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives > > I am insisting on package management policies becaus they are (for me, > clearly) the strongest point of the Free Software movement and the easy > availability of them could "convert" as much people as possibile (and > here we are in marketing list, trying to "sell" our distro). We already have good package management policies that is shared by Fedora Core, Fedora Extras (and RHEL) and a entire committee devoted to tackling those issues on a periodic basis on the fedora-packaging list as well as weekly IRC meetings and keeping our guidelines updated. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Committee > > When i have the occasion to let try "Linux" to some friend quite never I > am in the condition to make him try Fedora, principally for the reason > explained before. I would like to change that, and after the ease of > installation comes the package available to the user and the > configuration tool at disposal. Pirut, Pup and Puplet along with yum should provide much of the user friendliness in dealing with software packages at this point. If you are suggesting that we adopt non-free packages, that is unlikely to be entertained. Rahul From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Wed Aug 23 16:11:55 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:11:55 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <44EC2A36.70607@fedoraproject.org> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <"916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E0 9 977DCD9D1"@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <"D3EF72E9-7BCF-479 0- 8C2A-679FFAB1E650"@yahoo.it> <6FA506C5-2012-453A-BA9D-E3E225AECE68@yahoo.it> <"44EC1F00.90203 0 4"@prodigy.net.mx> <44EC2A36.70607@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <44EC7E4B.9000100@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Rahul escribi?: > Gian Paolo Mureddu wrote: > >> Even though I'd be most interested on hearing/reading what does Max >> think about Ubuntu, I'm not sure if his input on the subject more >> directly than what it was would have been all that beneficial, for the >> discussion and the whole Fedora "angle". However now knowing that >> Fedora is "no longer" a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any more >> (or so I deduce from some of the postings and points made by Rahul), > > Right. We are interesting in driving the project to serve other > needs along with the power users. I must admit that I did not know this was the direction the distribution was heading, though was kind of obvious from Core 4 to 6T2 now. I've been having new users use Fedora as their first Linux distribution and some even began with Yarrow back in the day, and stayed with Fedora to date. My greatest "pride" was a nephew who installed Fedora and then Ubuntu (an umbiased opinion) and he said he generally found his way around Fedora easier than in Ubuntu (I was kind of surprised. At first I thought he said that because I introduced him to Fedora, and felt compelled to say so, but then he said he really did). Not to bash any other Linux distribution, after all the more Linux users there are, the better support for other important stuff there'll be (programs, hardware, open specs for open drivers, etc, etc... And that only means good news for Linux in general, despite the distribution!) I'm a Fedora fan, even when I am not as participative as I would like to be, partly because I don't find the time, partly because I just simply don't know how to contribute... or simply where to start making contributions... I hope I'll find my way around, though. > >> I'd really be interested, as I tended to think that two niches were >> covered by either Ubuntu and Fedora. Fedora being more like Gentoo >> (without the whole "build it thyself" aspect) and being a distribution >> that could appeal easily to both GUI-inclined power users and CLI >> hardcore power users; > > Yes. We need to continue that balance. > > Rahul It is just because of THAT balance, that I CHOOSE Fedora over other "major" distributions. From the ones I've tried (and they've been plenty) none gets as close as Red Hat/Fedora for that sort of flexibility and dependability: meaning you can relay on a GUI tool to get something done with just a few clicks, if the task would have required you to do extensive editing of a config file; or I'd rather sudo /sbin/service (re)start|status|etc from CLI if I wanted to start, restart or see the status of a service rather than going to Desktop --> Administration --> Servers --> Services and having to supply the root's password, while having the user in the wheel group and making users in wheel not need a password for sudo gets the job considerably faster. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE7H5LXM+XOp70dwoRAgj+AJ9A8sFP1TJ/VxNtTXCdG38Qw7PGiwCfefJf C88i2fmCDiyTMQeqbohX+1E= =R1Ib -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 18:43:36 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:13:36 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> On Tue, 2006-08-22 at 21:17 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > Well, here's the repo count for your example: > > core > core-debuginfo > core-source > development > development-debuginfo > development-source > extras-development > extras-development-debuginfo > extras-development-source > extras > extras-debuginfo > extras-source > legacy-updates > legacy-testing > updates > updates-debuginfo > updates-source > updates-testing > updates-testing-debuginfo > updates-testing-source > unnamedthirdparty-development > unnamedthirdparty-development-debuginfo > unnamedthirdparty-development-source > unnamedthirdparty > unnamedthirdparty-debuginfo > unnamedthirdparty-source > unnamedthirdparty-testing > unnamedthirdparty-testing-debug > unnamedthirdparty-testing-source You Do know that you have just given about 5 repos. core-updates-development all have the same packages, just later versions extras, extras-development are also the same and you have one third party. Source is if you want to install source code so you can compile yourself. Testing is of course, unstable. Debug I'm not sure, but I assume it is a debugger friendly version. If you enabled all of these, your system is sure to break, really fast. (and we call such a system rawhide ;) Gja From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 23 18:51:17 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:21:17 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> Message-ID: <44ECA3A5.4020400@fedoraproject.org> Tejas Dinkar wrote: > On Tue, 2006-08-22 at 21:17 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: >> Well, here's the repo count for your example: >> >> core >> core-debuginfo >> core-source >> development >> development-debuginfo >> development-source >> extras-development >> extras-development-debuginfo >> extras-development-source >> extras >> extras-debuginfo >> extras-source >> legacy-updates >> legacy-testing >> updates >> updates-debuginfo >> updates-source >> updates-testing >> updates-testing-debuginfo >> updates-testing-source >> unnamedthirdparty-development >> unnamedthirdparty-development-debuginfo >> unnamedthirdparty-development-source >> unnamedthirdparty >> unnamedthirdparty-debuginfo >> unnamedthirdparty-source >> unnamedthirdparty-testing >> unnamedthirdparty-testing-debug >> unnamedthirdparty-testing-source > > You Do know that you have just given about 5 repos. > > core-updates-development all have the same packages, just later versions > extras, extras-development are also the same > and you have one third party. > > Source is if you want to install source code so you can compile > yourself. Testing is of course, unstable. Debug I'm not sure, but I > assume it is a debugger friendly version. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Debuginfo Rahul From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Wed Aug 23 18:49:03 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 00:19:03 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <44EA851D.6090102@fedoraproject.org> <1881C9C1-8EED-4FFD-93F2-6F94A303B4C7@yahoo.it> <44EC2976.9050203@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1156358943.6724.8.camel@dragon.gja.in> On Wed, 2006-08-23 at 14:54 +0200, Nicola Losito wrote: > [GPM original message] However now knowing that Fedora is "no longer" > a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any more (or so I deduce from > some of the postings and points made by Rahul), I'd really be > interested, as I tended to think that two niches were covered by > either Ubuntu and Fedora. wtf is a power user distro anyway? You can call something a newbie distro, as newbies have a limited skill set, and are used to doing things a certain way... (*cough* winblows *cough*) But A poweruser distro? A true power user may sit and compile Linux From Scratch. A power user can just as easily make a stable system out of a live CD. What I'm trying to say is, there is no such thing as a distro for power users. Power users need tools, and all linux distros provide the same, or really similar tools. Fedora is no exception. Gja From mattdm at mattdm.org Wed Aug 23 20:04:21 2006 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:04:21 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> Message-ID: <20060823200421.GA7326@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 12:13:36AM +0530, Tejas Dinkar wrote: > On Tue, 2006-08-22 at 21:17 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote: > > Well, here's the repo count for your example: > > core [snip everything] > You Do know that you have just given about 5 repos. No. Do you? > core-updates-development all have the same packages, just later versions > extras, extras-development are also the same > and you have one third party. >From yum's point of view, they are all defined as separate repositories. If you mean something different, it's confusing to use the same terminology -- do you mean something like "package provider" or "vendor"? -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 23 20:19:09 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 01:49:09 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <1156358943.6724.8.camel@dragon.gja.in> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <44EA851D.6090102@fedoraproject.org> <1881C9C1-8EED-4FFD-93F2-6F94A303B4C7@yahoo.it> <44EC2976.9050203@fedoraproject.org> <1156358943.6724.8.camel@dragon.gja.in> Message-ID: <44ECB83D.80208@fedoraproject.org> Tejas Dinkar wrote: > On Wed, 2006-08-23 at 14:54 +0200, Nicola Losito wrote: >> [GPM original message] However now knowing that Fedora is "no longer" >> a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any more (or so I deduce from >> some of the postings and points made by Rahul), I'd really be >> interested, as I tended to think that two niches were covered by >> either Ubuntu and Fedora. > > wtf is a power user distro anyway? > > You can call something a newbie distro, as newbies have a limited skill > set, and are used to doing things a certain way... (*cough* winblows > *cough*) > > But A poweruser distro? > > A true power user may sit and compile Linux From Scratch. A power user > can just as easily make a stable system out of a live CD. > > What I'm trying to say is, > there is no such thing as a distro for power users. > > Power users need tools, and all linux distros provide the same, or > really similar tools. Fedora is no exception. > Usually it boils down to a basic question: How much of the distribution can I tweak to meet my preferences without touching the source code (on the command line too) ? For example, see the question on dependency bloat from Max Spevack's slashdot interview. Rahul From gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx Wed Aug 23 21:11:14 2006 From: gmureddu at prodigy.net.mx (Gian Paolo Mureddu) Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2006 16:11:14 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with FedoraProjectleader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <1156358943.6724.8.camel@dragon.gja.in> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <"916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E0 9 977DCD9D1"@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <"D3EF72E9-7BCF-479 0- 8C2A-679FFAB1E650"@yahoo.it> <44EA851D.6090102@fedoraproject.org> <"1881C9C1- 8E ED-4FFD-93F2-6F94A303B4C7"@yahoo.it> <44EC2976.9050203@fedoraproject.org> <"F 32 3F96C-0190-4752-931F-AEFE70AB9F2B"@yahoo.it> <1156358943.6724.8.camel@dragon.gja.in> Message-ID: <44ECC472.6050004@prodigy.net.mx> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Tejas Dinkar escribi?: > On Wed, 2006-08-23 at 14:54 +0200, Nicola Losito wrote: >> [GPM original message] However now knowing that Fedora is "no >> longer" a "Linux power user/enthusiast" distro any more (or so I >> deduce from some of the postings and points made by Rahul), I'd >> really be interested, as I tended to think that two niches were >> covered by either Ubuntu and Fedora. > > wtf is a power user distro anyway? > > You can call something a newbie distro, as newbies have a limited > skill set, and are used to doing things a certain way... (*cough* > winblows *cough*) > > But A poweruser distro? > > A true power user may sit and compile Linux From Scratch. A power > user can just as easily make a stable system out of a live CD. That would be Linux hardcore user... Power users are not hackers/programmers, only ordinary users with a lot of knowledge of the system. They feel comfortable compiling stuff, yes, but as anyone would also tell you, they also like the advantages of having things pre-made. > > What I'm trying to say is, there is no such thing as a distro for > power users. > > Power users need tools, and all linux distros provide the same, or > really similar tools. Fedora is no exception. > > Gja Indeed. However some make things "easier" than others for these users, or some others have a more "friendly" layout. I would have to agree with Rahul here, it'd boil down to how much can you tweak without touching the source/rebuilding (with -O3) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE7MRyXM+XOp70dwoRAsTXAJ9la1Gc1xB9R/yuxh5gK+N88fFYtQCfXCg1 Fe//3vOerIFvraRf14dVmAg= =ceIE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 17:23:18 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:53:18 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Just something that impressed me Message-ID: <1156440198.4883.1.camel@dragon.gja.in> I was pleasantly suprised when I saw that www.bmtcinfo.com is running Fedora. Indian, especially govt sites running anything other than ASP are a real rarity in these parts, so it is kinda cool to see that someone is listening. :) Gja From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 21:48:33 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:48:33 +0000 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910608241448w5cdf3fa5o9051ac68cc246dc6@mail.gmail.com> On 8/21/06, Rahul wrote: > I dont adore that quote. What are we developing Fedora for if not human > beings or are people who use other distributions aliens? ;-) I am personally developing for dolphins and dolphin-human hybrids! Come join me in developing software for the future... after the glaciers melt and the oceans rise 3 feet and we are forced to interbreed with the new dominant species to thrive in a new undersea world. Ubuntu is sooooooo behind the curve with their 'human' centric view and their silly 'earth' toned color scheme. The future is all subtle hues of the deep 'blue' sea. Fedora's coloring theming is just the first step! -jef"I've seen Kevin Kossner's Water World.. and I am a believer.. join me in making our watery future a free and open one!"spaleta From rmeggins at redhat.com Thu Aug 24 21:57:30 2006 From: rmeggins at redhat.com (Richard Megginson) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 15:57:30 -0600 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <604aa7910608241448w5cdf3fa5o9051ac68cc246dc6@mail.gmail.com> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910608241448w5cdf3fa5o9051ac68cc246dc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44EE20CA.2000904@redhat.com> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/21/06, Rahul wrote: >> I dont adore that quote. What are we developing Fedora for if not human >> beings or are people who use other distributions aliens? ;-) > > I am personally developing for dolphins and dolphin-human hybrids! > Come join me in developing software for the future... after the > glaciers melt and the oceans rise 3 feet and we are forced to > interbreed with the new dominant species to thrive in a new undersea > world. Ubuntu is sooooooo behind the curve with their 'human' centric > view and their silly 'earth' toned color scheme. The future is all > subtle hues of the deep 'blue' sea. Fedora's coloring theming is just > the first step! I, for one, welcome our new dolphin overlords . . . (ob. Simpsons ref.) > > -jef"I've seen Kevin Kossner's Water World.. and I am a believer.. > join me in making our watery future a free and open one!"spaleta > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 3178 bytes Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature URL: From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 22:11:41 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 22:11:41 +0000 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <20060823200421.GA7326@jadzia.bu.edu> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> <20060823200421.GA7326@jadzia.bu.edu> Message-ID: <604aa7910608241511n3a9d81fco1d3e4c0cf8fdca1c@mail.gmail.com> On 8/23/06, Matthew Miller wrote: > >From yum's point of view, they are all defined as separate repositories. If > you mean something different, it's confusing to use the same terminology -- > do you mean something like "package provider" or "vendor"? Here is the crux of the problem... we are working with evolving terminology which is being used to describe evolving technology and structures. Having 14 different repository definitions sitting in several .repo files in the repo.d directory is not the problem. The problem is making it drop-dead easy for everyone who cares to know WHY we have all those definitions, instead of having one pile-on repository. We need to make it so easy to understand why that even my most hated and loathsome enemies, the technology reporter and editors-in-chiefs of online 'news' sites about 'OS''s, can discovery this information without being troubled with learning how to use established online resources to ask questions of other human beings... but I digress. It needs to be clear to new users on the clientside why -testing and -debuginfo and -devel are seperate and distinct entiries and why they are provided but disabled. Once you know what these repos do, and you are a rationale person ( an assumption easily broken), informed choices will be made regarding whether or not to enable them. And if Fedora is to be about anything.. it should strive to be about informed choice. -jef From mattdm at mattdm.org Thu Aug 24 23:18:52 2006 From: mattdm at mattdm.org (Matthew Miller) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 19:18:52 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <604aa7910608241511n3a9d81fco1d3e4c0cf8fdca1c@mail.gmail.com> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> <20060823200421.GA7326@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910608241511n3a9d81fco1d3e4c0cf8fdca1c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20060824231852.GA20314@jadzia.bu.edu> On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 10:11:41PM +0000, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > choices will be made regarding whether or not to enable them. And if > Fedora is to be about anything.. it should strive to be about informed > choice. For aquatic mammals. -- Matthew Miller mattdm at mattdm.org Boston University Linux ------> From tejasdinkar at gmail.com Fri Aug 25 12:16:12 2006 From: tejasdinkar at gmail.com (Tejas Dinkar) Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 17:46:12 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: Slashdot interview with Fedora Project leader Max Spevack In-Reply-To: <604aa7910608241448w5cdf3fa5o9051ac68cc246dc6@mail.gmail.com> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910608241448w5cdf3fa5o9051ac68cc246dc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1156508172.7386.1.camel@dragon.gja.in> On Thu, 2006-08-24 at 21:48 +0000, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > I am personally developing for dolphins and dolphin-human hybrids! > ... > interbreed with the new dominant species to thrive in a new undersea > world. You did WHAT to a dolphin!!!! Does the RSPCA know about this? -tejas"Freaked out of my pants"dinkar From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Sat Aug 26 01:19:20 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2006 06:49:20 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] PCQuest Fedora Core 5 review Message-ID: <44EFA198.9060802@fedoraproject.org> Hi Read this before in print. Just found out that this review is available online http://www.pcquest.com/content/services/2006/106050501.asp Rahul From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Aug 29 14:23:10 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:23:10 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fwd: Linux User award entry Message-ID: <200608291023.10421.jkeating@j2solutions.net> ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Linux User award entry Date: Tuesday 29 August 2006 09:02 From: "Nick Dillon" To: "Jeremy Katz" , "Jesse Keating" Hi guys, I am in the process of completing an entry for the UK Linux and Open Source awards and I am wondering if you could lend me a hand. I am entering Fedora Core 5 in the "Best Linux / Open Source distribution" category and I would really appreciate it if you could write a quick 250 words about Fedora and why it is the best distribution. I am sure you discuss this most days, so hopefully it should not take you too long! Thanks, Nick PS - Did everything go well with Nick Veitch from Linux Format? ________________________________________________ Nick Dillon AxiCom UK Direct: +44 (0)20 8392 4060 Mob: +44 (0)7725 761 450 Email: nick.dillon at axicom.com Web: www.axicom.com ____________________________________________________ P Before printing, think about the environment ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------- -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kwade at redhat.com Tue Aug 29 17:02:29 2006 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 10:02:29 -0700 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fwd: Linux User award entry In-Reply-To: <200608291023.10421.jkeating@j2solutions.net> References: <200608291023.10421.jkeating@j2solutions.net> Message-ID: <1156870949.2548.44.camel@erato.phig.org> On Tue, 2006-08-29 at 10:23 -0400, Jesse Keating wrote: > I am entering Fedora Core 5 in the "Best Linux / Open Source > distribution" category and I would really appreciate it if you could > write a quick 250 words about Fedora and why it is the best > distribution. I am sure you discuss this most days, so hopefully it > should not take you too long! Do we have something we can work from/expand? > PS - Did everything go well with Nick Veitch from Linux Format? Don't know about anyone else, but Jack and I did an interview with Nick. It went well. - Karsten -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mcgiwer at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 29 17:17:31 2006 From: mcgiwer at fedoraproject.org (Pawel Sadowski) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:17:31 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora Screencasting Message-ID: <1156871852.4944.21.camel@redhat> Hi, Last time there was loudly about the screencasts showing how to do paricular tasks on Fedora Core. I have prepared the first movie and uploaded it to the Wiki. I would be grateful if you provided feedback on it. I mean mainly the language - whether it is enough understadable. There is one interrupt in the sentence "We see the window informing us...", because of technical reasons. I will correct it quickly and upload corrected version. Now I just would like to hear feedback on the one that is on the Wiki. You can find it at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ToursFedora5 (update.ogg). Regards, Pawel Sadowski From jkeating at j2solutions.net Tue Aug 29 17:34:28 2006 From: jkeating at j2solutions.net (Jesse Keating) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:34:28 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fwd: Linux User award entry In-Reply-To: <1156870949.2548.44.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <200608291023.10421.jkeating@j2solutions.net> <1156870949.2548.44.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: <200608291334.28235.jkeating@j2solutions.net> On Tuesday 29 August 2006 13:02, Karsten Wade wrote: > > I am entering Fedora Core 5 in the "Best Linux / Open Source > > distribution" category and I would really appreciate it if you could > > write a quick 250 words about Fedora and why it is the best > > distribution. I am sure you discuss this most days, so hopefully it > > should not take you too long! > > Do we have something we can work from/expand? > > > PS - Did everything go well with Nick Veitch from Linux Format? > > Don't know about anyone else, but Jack and I did an interview with Nick. > It went well. Please keep Nick in the CC as he's not on this list. Nick? -- Jesse Keating RHCE (geek.j2solutions.net) Fedora Legacy Team (www.fedoralegacy.org) GPG Public Key (geek.j2solutions.net/jkeating.j2solutions.pub) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tchung at fedoraproject.org Tue Aug 29 18:32:51 2006 From: tchung at fedoraproject.org (Thomas Chung) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:32:51 -0700 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora Screencasting In-Reply-To: <1156871852.4944.21.camel@redhat> References: <1156871852.4944.21.camel@redhat> Message-ID: <369bce3b0608291132v23eec068hf62b27d3fc4407b6@mail.gmail.com> On 8/29/06, Pawel Sadowski wrote: > Hi, > > Last time there was loudly about the screencasts showing how to do > paricular tasks on Fedora Core. I have prepared the first movie and > uploaded it to the Wiki. I would be grateful if you provided feedback on > it. I mean mainly the language - whether it is enough understadable. > There is one interrupt in the sentence "We see the window informing > us...", because of technical reasons. I will correct it quickly and > upload corrected version. Now I just would like to hear feedback on the > one that is on the Wiki. You can find it at > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ToursFedora5 (update.ogg). > > Regards, > Pawel Sadowski Excellent Job Pawel, Here is correceted URL: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tours/FedoraCore5 Regards, -- Thomas Chung http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasChung From jspaleta at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 19:51:22 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:51:22 -0800 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora Screencasting In-Reply-To: <1156871852.4944.21.camel@redhat> References: <1156871852.4944.21.camel@redhat> Message-ID: <604aa7910608291251h36057ed6h54d48f31c5c60fef@mail.gmail.com> On 8/29/06, Pawel Sadowski wrote: > Hi, > > Last time there was loudly about the screencasts showing how to do > paricular tasks on Fedora Core. I have prepared the first movie and > uploaded it to the Wiki. What did you use to create the movie? -jef From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Wed Aug 30 10:53:15 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:23:15 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora goes Live Message-ID: <44F56E1B.5020605@fedoraproject.org> Hi, Live CD's are something we have always wanted but never managed to get enough resources to get things done. Good to see that happening in a more concrete form http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3629161 Rahul From n.losito at yahoo.it Wed Aug 30 10:48:18 2006 From: n.losito at yahoo.it (Nicola Losito) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 12:48:18 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <604aa7910608241511n3a9d81fco1d3e4c0cf8fdca1c@mail.gmail.com> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> <20060823200421.GA7326@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910608241511n3a9d81fco1d3e4c0cf8fdca1c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1EF703C8-7345-43C1-BE2A-27D902217975@yahoo.it> So here i am again. I've let settle down a little dust in the discussion with Raul. From a Marketing point (yes, techicians ALL hates marketing) point how can/want we "force" the developers to appeal more customers ? And i do not mean professional ones which uses XEN or SElinux in a "conscious" way, but everyday people. I mean the point & click inclined to. I might say to look on how Novell has worked on the desktop experience of SLED starting from the openSUSE, there are some yards of difference between the two projects. From my point of view we can welcome more people: - talking till come blue in the face of Fedora, of what's going on and why (possibily); - continuing this road of "disclosure" i am enjoying since Max has come "the" chief :-P - simplyfing the package management & retrieval (again to give a slight idea i would *love* a hugest as possible fedora-extra repo, an external FC-compatible non-US repository for packages that are allowed almoust everywhere but not in the USA and a "Penguin Liberation Front" style repo); - answering in a clear and motivated way to people approaching .... being told "your vision is wrong or different" is useless. We have to suppose that people who subscribes here or another no help-desk list has read and understood our "policies" and still has a different take on them. Things are always perfectible (hope it's the right word) and welcoming new ideas is not always bad. On the contrary to stick obsessively with self made rules would end in a closed environment, and we - i suppose - are for the Open. - try to develop more friendly and unified "control center" .... now for Fedora (and also Debian) i see a tendency to put this effort on Gnome or KDE. I like the Mandriva Control Center and YaST approach, and since someone told me YaST is smart enough to leave untouched hand-modified files and since it has become GPL'd i would like other distro approach and make it better than it is (as it's being done with Smart Package management). So, lunch is coming my way .... i'll stop bothering this list ! Thanks for reading ++ i do hope to have been "understandable" -- Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito http://koolinus.wordpress.com ITA => http://www.koolinus.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From othonbatista at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 13:30:07 2006 From: othonbatista at gmail.com (Othon Batista) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 10:30:07 -0300 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] III Festival de Software Livre da Bahia - Brazilian Event Message-ID: <4082f59b0608300630m7f07fca0i55679ab5072bc1d@mail.gmail.com> Hi, In August, 24th, 25th and 26th happened the III Festival de Software Livre da Bahia (3rd Bahia Free Software Festival). It's an event with participants from all over Brazil. Hugo Cisneiros presented a lecture about Fedora. We (Othon Batista, Hugo Cisneiros and Cristiano Furtado, Brazilian Fedora Project) distributed 100 DVD with Fedora Core 5, 200 flyers with Fedora Project information and 200 pens. We also took part in the "Install Fest", helping installing Fedora Core 5 in the user's computers. Beyond that, we had a Fedora stand with laptops running Fedora Core 5. Regards, -- Othon Batista (othonbatista at gmail.com) Computer Science MSc Fedora Ambassador in Salvador/BA - Brazil From mspevack at redhat.com Wed Aug 30 17:41:33 2006 From: mspevack at redhat.com (Max Spevack) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 13:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fwd: Linux User award entry In-Reply-To: <1156870949.2548.44.camel@erato.phig.org> References: <200608291023.10421.jkeating@j2solutions.net> <1156870949.2548.44.camel@erato.phig.org> Message-ID: >> write a quick 250 words about Fedora and why it is the best >> distribution. I am sure you discuss this most days, so hopefully it >> should not take you too long! I get instantly suspicious when I hear someone ask me to say why "we're the best". I don't like doing things like that. We say *what we are* and *what we stand for* and let other people worry about rankings. Is anyone responding to this? If so, please CC me on a draft before it gets sent. --Max -- Max Spevack + http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MaxSpevack + gpg key -- http://spevack.org/max.asc + fingerprint -- CD52 5E72 369B B00D 9E9A 773E 2FDB CB46 5A17 CF21 From stb52988 at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 20:40:33 2006 From: stb52988 at gmail.com (Steve Barnhart) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:40:33 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <1EF703C8-7345-43C1-BE2A-27D902217975@yahoo.it> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> <20060823200421.GA7326@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910608241511n3a9d81fco1d3e4c0cf8fdca1c@mail.gmail.com> <1EF703C8-7345-43C1-BE2A-27D902217975@yahoo.it> Message-ID: <15ce3ec0608301340t77271a4bvc514d3a9cbe5e0a7@mail.gmail.com> Ya I really am saddened that no other distros have taken advantage of YaST being open source. Everyone keeps wasting resources and rebuilding when YaST is a good alternative and includes an ncurses gui too. I really like YaST and is probably the reason I keep having a hard time deciding between Fedora and openSUSE and keeping both of them on my HD. Porting YaST should be way simpler for Fedora as it is already RPM based. So many modules are there that rebuilding something else just seems like a waste of time. On 8/30/06, Nicola Losito wrote: > > > So here i am again. > I've let settle down a little dust in the discussion with Raul. > > From a Marketing point (yes, techicians ALL hates marketing) point how > can/want we "force" the developers to appeal more customers ? > And i do not mean professional ones which uses XEN or SElinux in a > "conscious" way, but everyday people. I mean the point & click inclined to. > I might say to look on how Novell has worked on the desktop experience of > SLED starting from the openSUSE, there are some yards of difference between > the two projects. > > From my point of view we can welcome more people: > > - talking till come blue in the face of Fedora, of what's going on and why > (possibily); > > - continuing this road of "disclosure" i am enjoying since Max has come > "the" chief :-P > > - simplyfing the package management & retrieval (again to give a slight idea > i would *love* a hugest as possible fedora-extra repo, an external > FC-compatible non-US repository for packages that are allowed almoust > everywhere but not in the USA and a "Penguin Liberation Front" style repo); > > - answering in a clear and motivated way to people approaching .... being > told "your vision is wrong or different" is useless. We have to suppose that > people who subscribes here or another no help-desk list has read and > understood our "policies" and still has a different take on them. Things are > always perfectible (hope it's the right word) and welcoming new ideas is not > always bad. On the contrary to stick obsessively with self made rules would > end in a closed environment, and we - i suppose - are for the Open. > > - try to develop more friendly and unified "control center" .... now for > Fedora (and also Debian) i see a tendency to put this effort on Gnome or > KDE. I like the Mandriva Control Center and YaST approach, and since someone > told me YaST is smart enough to leave untouched hand-modified files and > since it has become GPL'd i would like other distro approach and make it > better than it is (as it's being done with Smart Package management). > > So, lunch is coming my way .... i'll stop bothering this list ! > Thanks for reading ++ i do hope to have been "understandable" > > > > -- > Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito > http://koolinus.wordpress.com > > ITA => http://www.koolinus.net > > > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > -- Steve From david at projetofedora.org Wed Aug 30 20:57:33 2006 From: david at projetofedora.org (David Barzilay) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 15:57:33 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot Message-ID: Should we take this discussion to a "more technical" list? > Ya I really am saddened that no other distros have taken advantage of > YaST being open source. Everyone keeps wasting resources and > rebuilding when YaST is a good alternative and includes an ncurses gui > too. I really like YaST and is probably the reason I keep having a > hard time deciding between Fedora and openSUSE and keeping both of > them on my HD. Porting YaST should be way simpler for Fedora as it is > already RPM based. So many modules are there that rebuilding something > else just seems like a waste of time. > > On 8/30/06, Nicola Losito wrote: > > > > > > So here i am again. > > I've let settle down a little dust in the discussion with Raul. > > > > From a Marketing point (yes, techicians ALL hates marketing) point how > > can/want we "force" the developers to appeal more customers ? > > And i do not mean professional ones which uses XEN or SElinux in a > > "conscious" way, but everyday people. I mean the point & click inclined to. > > I might say to look on how Novell has worked on the desktop experience of > > SLED starting from the openSUSE, there are some yards of difference between > > the two projects. > > > > From my point of view we can welcome more people: > > > > - talking till come blue in the face of Fedora, of what's going on and why > > (possibily); > > > > - continuing this road of "disclosure" i am enjoying since Max has come > > "the" chief :-P > > > > - simplyfing the package management & retrieval (again to give a slight idea > > i would *love* a hugest as possible fedora-extra repo, an external > > FC-compatible non-US repository for packages that are allowed almoust > > everywhere but not in the USA and a "Penguin Liberation Front" style repo); > > > > - answering in a clear and motivated way to people approaching .... being > > told "your vision is wrong or different" is useless. We have to suppose that > > people who subscribes here or another no help-desk list has read and > > understood our "policies" and still has a different take on them. Things are > > always perfectible (hope it's the right word) and welcoming new ideas is not > > always bad. On the contrary to stick obsessively with self made rules would > > end in a closed environment, and we - i suppose - are for the Open. > > > > - try to develop more friendly and unified "control center" .... now for > > Fedora (and also Debian) i see a tendency to put this effort on Gnome or > > KDE. I like the Mandriva Control Center and YaST approach, and since someone > > told me YaST is smart enough to leave untouched hand-modified files and > > since it has become GPL'd i would like other distro approach and make it > > better than it is (as it's being done with Smart Package management). > > > > So, lunch is coming my way .... i'll stop bothering this list ! > > Thanks for reading ++ i do hope to have been "understandable" > > > > > > > > -- > > Nicola .:kOoLiNuS:. Losito > > http://koolinus.wordpress.com From mcgiwer at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 31 10:02:59 2006 From: mcgiwer at fedoraproject.org (Pawel Sadowski) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 12:02:59 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Fedora Screencasting Message-ID: <4e08525d0608310302gdc37f4akf166c9e37a7a3ead@mail.gmail.com> > Here is correceted URL: > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Tours/FedoraCore5 Oh, indeed. I have made a mistake in address :) > What did you use to create the movie? I have used "xvidcap" in connection with "Xnest". I have written it on the Wiki, but someone deleted it... I can write it once again, but I do not know who someone removed the content I wrote there before. I am answering today, because I have formatted my /home partiton "by accident"... (just wanted to resize, heh... I thought I will never do something like that and was surprised how other people can do so, now I know...). Now I have to restore my data. I am waiting for a new disk now, so I will have a space where I will be able to put my restored files. Regards, Pawel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 31 13:50:16 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:20:16 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <15ce3ec0608301340t77271a4bvc514d3a9cbe5e0a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <916D2354-DDA3-433C-BDED-E09977DCD9D1@yahoo.it> <44E9D028.3070707@fedoraproject.org> <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> <20060823200421.GA7326@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910608241511n3a9d81fco1d3e4c0cf8fdca1c@mail.gmail.com> <1EF703C8-7345-43C1-BE2A-27D902217975@yahoo.it> <15ce3ec0608301340t77271a4bvc514d3a9cbe5e0a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F6E918.6070002@fedoraproject.org> Steve Barnhart wrote: > Ya I really am saddened that no other distros have taken advantage of > YaST being open source. Everyone keeps wasting resources and > rebuilding when YaST is a good alternative and includes an ncurses gui > too. I really like YaST and is probably the reason I keep having a > hard time deciding between Fedora and openSUSE and keeping both of > them on my HD. Porting YaST should be way simpler for Fedora as it is > already RPM based. So many modules are there that rebuilding something > else just seems like a waste of time. I would love to see some people get together and do this. If there is really interest in this, that would happen. Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 18:57:11 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 10:57:11 -0800 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <44F6E918.6070002@fedoraproject.org> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> <20060823200421.GA7326@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910608241511n3a9d81fco1d3e4c0cf8fdca1c@mail.gmail.com> <1EF703C8-7345-43C1-BE2A-27D902217975@yahoo.it> <15ce3ec0608301340t77271a4bvc514d3a9cbe5e0a7@mail.gmail.com> <44F6E918.6070002@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910608311157l1cd16db0gf4ac3c14211d558a@mail.gmail.com> On 8/31/06, Rahul wrote: > I would love to see some people get together and do this. If there is > really interest in this, that would happen. To put the issue of Yast into perspective... has any of its supporters to date, since its licensing change, made any effort to get it packaged in Extras? I don't know the answer to that for sure, but I can't seem to find a reference saying it was attempted. Opinions as to its usefulness aside, if the people who do want to see it in Fedora can't support it enough to get it into Extras.. then that says something significant. This isn't the first time Yast has come up in the lists. -jef"I'm looking for a sandwich spread with the taste of roast pork, and the mouth-feel of peanut butter"spaleta From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 31 19:46:26 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:16:26 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: slashdot In-Reply-To: <604aa7910608311157l1cd16db0gf4ac3c14211d558a@mail.gmail.com> References: <44E5D00A.8000309@fedoraproject.org> <20060823011715.GA32106@jadzia.bu.edu> <1156358616.6724.3.camel@dragon.gja.in> <20060823200421.GA7326@jadzia.bu.edu> <604aa7910608241511n3a9d81fco1d3e4c0cf8fdca1c@mail.gmail.com> <1EF703C8-7345-43C1-BE2A-27D902217975@yahoo.it> <15ce3ec0608301340t77271a4bvc514d3a9cbe5e0a7@mail.gmail.com> <44F6E918.6070002@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910608311157l1cd16db0gf4ac3c14211d558a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F73C92.9000108@fedoraproject.org> Jeff Spaleta wrote: > On 8/31/06, Rahul wrote: >> I would love to see some people get together and do this. If there is >> really interest in this, that would happen. > > To put the issue of Yast into perspective... has any of its supporters > to date, since its licensing change, made any effort to get it > packaged in Extras? I don't know the answer to that for sure, but I > can't seem to find a reference saying it was attempted. Opinions as > to its usefulness aside, if the people who do want to see it in Fedora > can't support it enough to get it into Extras.. then that says > something significant. This isn't the first time Yast has come up in > the lists. Nope. Nobody has which is precisely my claim. If anybody wanted it so much, they would have to do the groundwork necessary. Simply claiming that they would love to have yast in Fedora isnt going to work. Rahul From thomas.canniot at laposte.net Thu Aug 31 20:32:48 2006 From: thomas.canniot at laposte.net (Thomas Canniot) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 22:32:48 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] RH making fun of us ? Message-ID: <1157056368.31667.24.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> Did I miss something, or RH CTO has problem with Fedora first Myth ? http://ipcommunications.tmcnet.com/news/2006/08/25/195490.htm?p=ica "We're convinced that there is a better way to develop software, so what we did is we blew up the notion of an Alpha and we use Fedora as an alpha." What about Spevack 8th question in his interview on /.? Where do we stand ? What to say to people now ? One thing : thanks a lot. -- Thomas Canniot http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasCanniot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From rdieter at math.unl.edu Thu Aug 31 20:47:13 2006 From: rdieter at math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:47:13 -0500 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] Re: RH making fun of us ? References: <1157056368.31667.24.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> Message-ID: Thomas Canniot wrote: > Did I miss something, or RH CTO has problem with Fedora first Myth ? > > http://ipcommunications.tmcnet.com/news/2006/08/25/195490.htm?p=ica > > "We're convinced that there is a better way to develop software, so what > we did is we blew up the notion of an Alpha and we use Fedora as an > alpha." Max already had a "chat" with the involved parties about it. (: It was mostly a poor choice of words, calling Fedora an alpha. The point being is that RHEL gets an excellent foundation (ie, real-world/live use and testing), and that foundation comes from Fedora, so there's less/no need anymore for RHEL-tech-previews, etc, that served that role (for RHEL) in the past. -- Rex From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 31 20:58:37 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 02:28:37 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] RH making fun of us ? In-Reply-To: <1157056368.31667.24.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> References: <1157056368.31667.24.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> Message-ID: <44F74D7D.5070802@fedoraproject.org> Thomas Canniot wrote: > Did I miss something, or RH CTO has problem with Fedora first Myth ? > > http://ipcommunications.tmcnet.com/news/2006/08/25/195490.htm?p=ica > > "We're convinced that there is a better way to develop software, so what > we did is we blew up the notion of an Alpha and we use Fedora as an > alpha." > Followed by "The engineers are goaled on not just producing enterprise quality software, but driving it through upstream in terms of the community. In the early days it was about providing a version of Linux that is differentiated somehow; instead it's now about how do we participate in the upstream projects through Fedora. " I send this over to Max Spevack and we had a discussion with Brian Stevens and others in the Fedora Board about this already. I think what is being said is very much right but the choice of terminology in the middle is obsoletely bad. However it's always a good idea to read things in context. For one, this was a live interview and the question was "where is the alpha for RHEL?". From the perspective of Red Hat Enterprise Linux development there is no alpha release for it since Red Hat has been investing its efforts into driving changes upstream through Fedora instead. I would read encourage everyone to read the full interview instead of choice quotes. > What about Spevack 8th question in his interview on /.? > > Where do we stand ? Exactly where we have stood for a long time now. > > What to say to people now ? As I already said in http://rahulsundaram.livejournal.com/6407.html, alpha and beta releases are "bad" choice of words because they convey more than one thing. From a perspective of ongoing development, Brian Stevens is right but they also have some amount of negative tones associated with them due to perceived impact on the quality or robustness of what Fedora itself is. > One thing : thanks a lot. > It was no fun for everyone involved. We will to have collecting work on saying things without the negativity. Apologies if you that put you in a tight ring. Rahul From thomas.canniot at laposte.net Thu Aug 31 21:27:53 2006 From: thomas.canniot at laposte.net (Thomas Canniot) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:27:53 +0200 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] RH making fun of us ? In-Reply-To: <44F74D7D.5070802@fedoraproject.org> References: <1157056368.31667.24.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> <44F74D7D.5070802@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1157059673.31667.28.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> Le vendredi 01 septembre 2006 ? 02:28 +0530, Rahul a ?crit : > Thomas Canniot wrote: > > Did I miss something, or RH CTO has problem with Fedora first Myth ? > > > > http://ipcommunications.tmcnet.com/news/2006/08/25/195490.htm?p=ica > > > > "We're convinced that there is a better way to develop software, so what > > we did is we blew up the notion of an Alpha and we use Fedora as an > > alpha." > > > > Followed by > > "The engineers are goaled on not just producing enterprise quality > software, but driving it through upstream in terms of the community. > > In the early days it was about providing a version of Linux that is > differentiated somehow; instead it's now about how do we participate in > the upstream projects through Fedora. > " > > I send this over to Max Spevack and we had a discussion with Brian > Stevens and others in the Fedora Board about this already. I think what > is being said is very much right but the choice of terminology in the > middle is obsoletely bad. > > However it's always a good idea to read things in context. For one, this > was a live interview and the question was "where is the alpha for > RHEL?". From the perspective of Red Hat Enterprise Linux development > there is no alpha release for it since Red Hat has been investing its > efforts into driving changes upstream through Fedora instead. > > I would read encourage everyone to read the full interview instead of > choice quotes. > > > > What about Spevack 8th question in his interview on /.? > > > > Where do we stand ? > > Exactly where we have stood for a long time now. > > > > > What to say to people now ? > > As I already said in http://rahulsundaram.livejournal.com/6407.html, > alpha and beta releases are "bad" choice of words because they convey > more than one thing. > > From a perspective of ongoing development, Brian Stevens is right but > they also have some amount of negative tones associated with them due to > perceived impact on the quality or robustness of what Fedora itself is. > > > One thing : thanks a lot. > > > > It was no fun for everyone involved. We will to have collecting work on > saying things without the negativity. Apologies if you that put you in > a tight ring. > > Rahul > I lose bits of my temper as Fedora is being insulted on the most popular French Linux website. http://linuxfr.org/comments/749231.html Everybody is working very hard on this, as you know. It is just deeply frustrating. Thanks for your reply, i'll have a tea in my fedora cup to calm down. -- Thomas Canniot http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasCanniot -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ceci est une partie de message num?riquement sign?e URL: From stickster at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 21:38:01 2006 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 17:38:01 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] RH making fun of us ? In-Reply-To: <44F74D7D.5070802@fedoraproject.org> References: <1157056368.31667.24.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> <44F74D7D.5070802@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <1157060281.18320.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 02:28 +0530, Rahul wrote: > Thomas Canniot wrote: > > Did I miss something, or RH CTO has problem with Fedora first Myth ? > > > > http://ipcommunications.tmcnet.com/news/2006/08/25/195490.htm?p=ica > > > > "We're convinced that there is a better way to develop software, so what > > we did is we blew up the notion of an Alpha and we use Fedora as an > > alpha." > > > > Followed by > > "The engineers are goaled on not just producing enterprise quality > software, but driving it through upstream in terms of the community. I wonder if, in addition to dropping the words "alpha" and "beta," we can also gently remind the CTO that "goal" is a noun. :-) -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE and English Dictator http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From sgk284 at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 22:21:08 2006 From: sgk284 at gmail.com (Stephen Krenzel) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 18:21:08 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] RH making fun of us ? In-Reply-To: <1157060281.18320.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1157056368.31667.24.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> <44F74D7D.5070802@fedoraproject.org> <1157060281.18320.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1fa01fe80608311521o48d78496r51b825cc35c836ac@mail.gmail.com> Red Hat, on more than one occasion, has made the task of building Fedora's credibility a huge challenge with their public statements. Max did a great thing with slashdot, and that greatly helped the situation, but more is needed. Red Hat needs the support of the community, and they get that through Fedora. If any of you are fortunate enough to have a role or influence in Red Hat's official stance on such issues, I feel it is best that Red Hat starts presenting Fedora as more of a RHEL without support and more cutting edge software, rather than as RHEL's demented step-brother. This is of course all just my opinion, but this is what Red Hat's stance often appears like to me as an outside observer. If you know me, you know that I'm an avid promoter of Fedora, but having Red Hat publically back such statements would make life easier for everyone. Please note, that the intent of this message is in no way to discredit Red Hat, nor do I wish to appear thankless for all that Red Hat has done, I'm just trying to make the situation better. On 8/31/06, Paul W. Frields wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-09-01 at 02:28 +0530, Rahul wrote: > > Thomas Canniot wrote: > > > Did I miss something, or RH CTO has problem with Fedora first Myth ? > > > > > > http://ipcommunications.tmcnet.com/news/2006/08/25/195490.htm?p=ica > > > > > > "We're convinced that there is a better way to develop software, so > what > > > we did is we blew up the notion of an Alpha and we use Fedora as an > > > alpha." > > > > > > > Followed by > > > > "The engineers are goaled on not just producing enterprise quality > > software, but driving it through upstream in terms of the community. > > I wonder if, in addition to dropping the words "alpha" and "beta," we > can also gently remind the CTO that "goal" is a noun. :-) > > -- > Paul W. Frields, RHCE and English Dictator http://paul.frields.org/ > gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 > Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board > Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject > > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Thu Aug 31 22:33:48 2006 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul) Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 04:03:48 +0530 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] RH making fun of us ? In-Reply-To: <1fa01fe80608311521o48d78496r51b825cc35c836ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <1157056368.31667.24.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> <44F74D7D.5070802@fedoraproject.org> <1157060281.18320.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1fa01fe80608311521o48d78496r51b825cc35c836ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F763CC.7010304@fedoraproject.org> Stephen Krenzel wrote: > Red Hat, on more than one occasion, has made the task of building > Fedora's credibility a huge challenge with their public statements. Max > did a great thing with slashdot, and that greatly helped the situation, > but more is needed. Red Hat needs the support of the community, and they > get that through Fedora. If any of you are fortunate enough to have a > role or influence in Red Hat's official stance on such issues, I feel it > is best that Red Hat starts presenting Fedora as more of a RHEL without > support and more cutting edge software, rather than as RHEL's demented > step-brother. This is of course all just my opinion, but this is what > Red Hat's stance often appears like to me as an outside observer. If you > know me, you know that I'm an avid promoter of Fedora, but having Red > Hat publically back such statements would make life easier for everyone. > Please note, that the intent of this message is in no way to discredit > Red Hat, nor do I wish to appear thankless for all that Red Hat has > done, I'm just trying to make the situation better. > That's pretty much right on spot. We are improving. We need to do better. Can apply to Fedora on the whole too incidentally. Rahul From jspaleta at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 23:18:53 2006 From: jspaleta at gmail.com (Jeff Spaleta) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 15:18:53 -0800 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] RH making fun of us ? In-Reply-To: <44F763CC.7010304@fedoraproject.org> References: <1157056368.31667.24.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> <44F74D7D.5070802@fedoraproject.org> <1157060281.18320.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1fa01fe80608311521o48d78496r51b825cc35c836ac@mail.gmail.com> <44F763CC.7010304@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <604aa7910608311618l3e203186m4662d56368b5b353@mail.gmail.com> On 8/31/06, Rahul wrote: > That's pretty much right on spot. We are improving. We need to do > better. Can apply to Fedora on the whole too incidentally. You want it to get better as quickly as possible? Pay for my travel expenses for me and my baseball bat to have a face-to-face meeting with each and every person inside Red Hat who has the authority to make public statements to the press concerning Fedora's positioning. I guarantee that when they regain consciousness, they will have a clear understanding of how to represent Fedora, even if everything else is a bit hazy. -jef"putting the 'party' back into 'party line'"spaleta From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 23:50:02 2006 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:50:02 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] RH making fun of us ? In-Reply-To: <604aa7910608311618l3e203186m4662d56368b5b353@mail.gmail.com> References: <1157056368.31667.24.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> <44F74D7D.5070802@fedoraproject.org> <1157060281.18320.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1fa01fe80608311521o48d78496r51b825cc35c836ac@mail.gmail.com> <44F763CC.7010304@fedoraproject.org> <604aa7910608311618l3e203186m4662d56368b5b353@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <556f970a0608311650i2653927cj6f7294521d01ab26@mail.gmail.com> I just don't se why they can't acknowledge that Fedora is great, which makes RHEL even greater. Fedora is what RHEL could/should/might be. "The child is father to the man." It's a simple as Fedora is good for: (insert ten bullets, much of whom don't appeal to who Red Hat sells RHEL to), followed by RHEL is good for: (insert twenty bullets, all of whom appeal to who RHAT sells to). In other words, RHEL is supported, deeply and for 7 years. Fedora ain't... you don't have to twist a Fortune 500 company's arm very hard to convince them not to deploy without a safety net. Any IT staff worth their salt would like at least one neck to choke when the fit hits the shan. --jeremy On 8/31/06, Jeff Spaleta wrote: > > On 8/31/06, Rahul wrote: > > That's pretty much right on spot. We are improving. We need to do > > better. Can apply to Fedora on the whole too incidentally. > > You want it to get better as quickly as possible? Pay for my travel > expenses for me and my baseball bat to have a face-to-face meeting > with each and every person inside Red Hat who has the authority to > make public statements to the press concerning Fedora's positioning. > I guarantee that when they regain consciousness, they will have a > clear understanding of how to represent Fedora, even if everything > else is a bit hazy. > > -jef"putting the 'party' back into 'party line'"spaleta > > -- > Fedora-marketing-list mailing list > Fedora-marketing-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeremy.hogan at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 23:52:50 2006 From: jeremy.hogan at gmail.com (Jeremy Hogan) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 19:52:50 -0400 Subject: [Fedora-marketing-list] RH making fun of us ? In-Reply-To: <44F74D7D.5070802@fedoraproject.org> References: <1157056368.31667.24.camel@MrTomLinux.workstation> <44F74D7D.5070802@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: <556f970a0608311652y1a1b9598s9591fae305e9787c@mail.gmail.com> On 8/31/06, Rahul wrote: > I would read encourage everyone to read the full interview instead of > choice quotes. Super. All we have to do is make sure the 100M people on the Internet do likewise. It's probably easier to make sure this mindset changes. Then when you're put on the spot in a live interview, you know what terminology to use. --jeremy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: