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Re: Fedora: Freedom is a Feature.



El lun, 15-10-2007 a las 19:15 +0800, Marc Wiriadisastra escribió:

> >   
> Do you seriously think that the only reason people install Fedora is 
> because of Livna.  

I didn't say that. Things are not just white or black, despite some
people immediately tend to it. Things in life have usually a good load
of complexity (specially if we're talking about human systems).
Sarcastic expressions are a good way to manifest itself. Therefore, you
should accept the part of true that all them contain (supposing you are
interested in knowing truths..).

> That thought is ludicrous Livna is an addon repository that supports non-free software.  

Obviously..
:-)
The average end user, after installing a O.S.like Fedora, if that was
successfully, then the first thing he's much probably going to do will
be.. going for "those things" that make that core/robust system even
better, since all them turn the system into something prepared to the
common custom (Flash player, Java, graphics drivers, most popular audio
and video codecs and decoders, players, MS TrueType core fonts, etc...).
Just facts: what you want to do with them will be a issue entirely of
yours..

> While not degrading what 
> they do since some contribute to Fedora as a whole.  They do not create 
> the distribution at all.  The majority of the distribution is created by 
> people who work for RedHat (I think) a lot also from the community.
> 
Obviously..


> The fact that Ubuntu has bigger numbers is due in part to the fact that 
> it is easier to install than Fedora although that is changing.  

Not at all. You're completely wrong. Neither Ubuntu is easier to install
than Fedora nor Ubuntu has bigger number of users for that particular
reason.
Please, don't fall into the self-delusion. There are several,powerful
reasons to explain why Ubuntu is so much successful, unlike Fedora.
Thinking that fact is due to a _supposed_ easier installation is almost
a (bad) myth. It's simply false.
Both of them are equally "easy-to-install" for someone who is trying to
install a O.S. with some common sense. Particularly, I couldn't say
about any greater difficulty in one of them against the another.
Again, I remember to you (and everyone who is reading this) that most of
the people that use computers don't install O.S.'s, ...neither in a
short while nor never into his/her whole life! ..and that doesn't
depends on how much easy or difficult would be the process. People
usually buy computers with some O.S. already installed and ready for
use. Hence the importance of news where we can read that somewhat
manufacturer is going to sell X computers with X O.S. pre-installed on
it... (Here again, Ubuntu and others like Suse are growing for that via,
but that's not the issue now..).


> They 
> also offer non-free software as default.  I'm not to sure about 
> PCLinuxOS but they are making a charge.  One thing that Fedora does 
> which is similar in nature to Debian is that 'we' are the base for other 
> distro's.  Ubuntu get there software from Debian.  We are the equivalent 
> to Debian.

That's not correct in strict sense. According with your comparison,
where do you put Red Hat products? That's not make sense..

>  The big difference is that we are totally non-free in the 
> sense that no repositories that are under the control of Fedora have 
> non-free software.  That is a bold statement and one that deserves credit.
> 
To lean on the existence or absence of non-free bytes accessible
directly or indirectly.. in order to marking differences is simply an
hypocritical attitude. And a big mistake facing to the possible
audience, IMO. People isn't into those tiny shades.. After all, I've
already told you what they're going to do into the next step...
 

> Fedora takes opensource software and improves it and takes it to another 
> level.  Make no mistake if Fedora didn't exist the world would be worse 
> off.  While Fedora can go down the path of offering non-free software I 
> think I would be disheartened by this action and to me Fedora would lose 
> what it stands for.
> 
That's your feeling, no more no less. Even we could accept that you're
right, but reality is what is. Nature experience shows us that there are
no rules without (sometimes tons of) exceptions. Usually the mere
survive goes through knowing and to apply that, being able to be
flexible. However, proceeding so much strictly in most of the situations
(black or white, etc..) would probably take people who think in that way
to more-slave situations instead of another more really free.
I suppose there are lots of feelings and personal reasons about why
someone in particular chooses Fedora. Yours are clear according with you
said before, but I doubt what would be _the reason_ for most of the
Fedora-users... (It's a matter of opinion.. you always can make a survey
in the main fedora list to clear up..

> 
> Above all your criticism is welcome but your opinions should be tempered 
> with respect for the people that give you a product that is FREE and 
> they (the devs) strive hard to improve it. 

I've repeated this point many times along the thread, please re-read
them because one thing is being respectful (truly) and another one, very
different, is being in silence without possibility of telling opinions.
The last one would be curiously, in my opinion.., not being really
respectful with the work made from someone.
I'm a person that doesn't make opinions about those things that doesn't
care him. 
Fortunately, I come from a free culture, from a free country. Criticism
is essential for make improvements into something; submissive behaviours
just lead to the incline and the general impoverishment.
I don't think that because of the mere reason that some product is free
(gratis), that must to escape it from opinions (critics). Also, I don't
know much people that uses Linux (I mean the non-pay Linux distros...)
just because it is free (gratis).. People who choose Linux (as a
personal decision, those folks in particular) value much more other
things apart from price zero, e.g. power, security, reliability,
versatility, justice (fair), etc. (those things that maybe they can't
find in others O.S.) Do not forget that most of the Windows of the
planet are "price zero" indeed.. and who uses Linux is clearly avoiding
them despite all. 

>  While it may not be perfect 
> they are doing the best that they can and helping them improve it is 
> more helpful than saying what you product sucks I'm going to Livna.
> 
I didn't say that. Probably, you didn't read carefully. I like Fedora as
product (I don't love it as an enthusiastic, but it's OK..). I use
Fedora. That's my main O.S. at home. Since I'm not an I.T. student, nor
an IT engineer, where I suppose they are encouraged to use UNIX/Linux
during its formation, I think that choosing these flavours truly freely,
also it's very commendable. I came to Linux with RH9 (yes, Red Hat 9,
the last free (gratis) from this brand). Then, since I have none
enterprise at home, etc...me, such as many many people into similar
circumstances.., got into a new flavour called Fedora, being then this
maintained by Red Hat, IIRC.. On the other hand, _I do not use any other
than Linux (nor I have another O.S. installed)_ ever, since 2001. How
many people (inside the Linux universe) can say the same? You maybe?
So man, believe me when I tell you I know where I am. I've not an I.T.
University degree, but I have enough experience in live to have strong
opinions about all things that I care. I'm a Sciences' man (PhD and
Bachelor's degree). I know where I am, and about things either that I
like them or I don't like.. I say my opinion, clearly and roundly if
necessary, and sometimes with humour, sometimes with sarcams, sometimes
acidly,... and that doesn't have to mean absence of respect (at least
what I understand about it..)

> Every new kernel I test out the wireless iwl3945 driver to see if its 
> improved on my laptop.  It hasn't got the range as what the ipw3945 
> driver does however I'm hopeful that it's fixed in F8.  The reason I 
> test it is so I can offer feedback to the devs who strive hard to fix 
> the issues.  Spend a bit of time on the fedora-devel list to see how 
> active they all are and you might understand why I support this distro 
> so much.  

Marc, I try to have a decent personal life.. :-)
No, seriously.. Being realistic, a devel-list, even just lurking, would
surpass to me at all. 
On the other hand, that's a proof of your high energy! Admirable, please
don't close your mind (otherwise you would be going from that sublime
status to a fanatic one, who knows..)

> I have tested a heap of different versions of linux but 
> overall I have stuck with Fedora since Fedora Core 1 because it was 
> noticeable that overall the people cared about what they did.  It was 
> like a badge of honour that they put out a quality product.

I agree with you, the core of Fedora is a very good product indeed (e.g.
improved wireless support in the last two numbers, RH kernels that
support most of the upcoming new hardware, etc...).
But IMHO there are many things around it that they aren't being so
good.. I tried to evidence them here along the past posts in this list.
I won't to repeat me again. 


> 
> Thanks
> 
> Marc
> 

Take care,

Daniel


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