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Re: ubuntu marketing

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 11:11 PM, Jeff Spaleta <jspaleta gmail com> wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Zhukov Pavel <gelios gmail com> wrote:
>  >  Then fedora will continue loose people that doesn't like "google right
>  >  after install". That's most of newbie linux users. Is this correct
>  >  marketing decision?
>  It's a principled marketing decision...and one I will continue to support.
>  The purpose of this project is to advance open source innovation.. it
>  is not to collect users like they are pogs.
>  We don't do that by prefering to expose users to the more capable and
>  legal but closed source versions of any technology over the less
>  capable or illegal open versions.

This makes no sense to me. All I saw until not from fedora project is
that legal comes first...
Then how come fedora supports closed source fluendo codecs and doesn't
prefer US illegal codecs via livna or other repositories?

> Flash and multimedia is no
>  exception.  If the open flash that we can distribute sucks...then we
>  find a way to fix it..and fix it legally.

And now you say this needs to be fixed legally?!? Are you confused or am only I?
Please clear this up, you got me really confused right now.
AFAIK there is no legal and/or free way of making flash work via
swf-dec project if that is what you are implying.
> Open development happens
>  faster exactly because developers and users are in more direct contact
>  than traditional closed development. We undercut the engine of open
>  development by preferring to show users closed software over open
>  software.

You talking too general, please don't generalize this issue with
classic open vs. closed source debate.  I know the benefits of open
source solutions and I really support them, but I don't see any open
source solution right now that makes users able to use flash video
online. Currently swf-dec works ONLY with youtube.com (most of other
sites don't work) and ONLY after you install illegal codecs!

I'll be happy to work out the quirks with swf-dec people but until
most of sites work don't force them to use this. Let's get enough
advanced users aware of swf-dec and later make the switch to open
solution later -  but first let's make it first so that it doesn't
suck this hard.

> In this sense, ESR and myself are on opposite ends of
>  thought on how to deal with the problems of multimedia.  If you don't
>  agree with me, you might also find that the freespire is more to your
>  liking.

We don't agree but about different things that you suggest here, and
no, freespire is not more to my liking.

>  We can not hide from the fact the the legal issues surrounding patents
>  and multimedia is a huge mess. It won't get better unless we face it
>  head on and deal with it.

How do you deal with it? You just don't use them, that is not dealing
with them. Or are you talking about codeina?

>  Running off to a small island somewhere where software patents and
>  incorporating there isn't going to help fix the problem.

Maybe not for US and parts of Europe, but for the rest of the world it would...

> We fix the
>  problem by standing here, and telling everyone that this patent crap
>  is fundamentally hurting open innovation. We fix the problem by
>  standing here and reminding people that Europe is not immune to this
>  threat. It's real damn easy to pretend the problem is just a US
>  issue...its not. Its a looming legal issue everywhere. We don't win
>  long term by ignoring it.  We'll have this same discussion every
>  single release cycle.. and I'm okay with that. Patents are the biggest
>  problem facing the open source ecosystem, and I'd rather have Fedora
>  stand here and be a beacon for rational, passionate, discussion on the
>  issue, than to just side step the issue for the sake of collecting a
>  few more users in our userbase.

Ok, I understand that, I have heard it dozen of times since I joined
mailing lists, but if users agree with adobe licence there are no
patent violations for fedora or red hat. right?

>  I do not need to beat another linux distribution in terms of users for
>  Fedora to achieve is core goals of fostering open innovation.
>  I need 'enough' users... i need 'enough' upstream developers.. i need
>  'enough' maintainers.. I need 'enough' triagers... I need 'enough'
>  artists... I need 'enough writers...I need 'enough' translators....
>  and give them 'enough' open infrastructure by which to communicate as
>  partners in the process of open innovation.
>  What I don't need is proprietary software.

People need things to JustWork, and flash video is really high on that
list, you need to accept and aknowledge that. We all would be really
happy if swf-dec would work and legally on fedora, but it doesn't. We
would be happy if adobe opensorced their player and let go of its
patents, but they don't...


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