From mpgritti at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 08:04:34 2008 From: mpgritti at gmail.com (Marco Pesenti Gritti) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 10:04:34 +0200 Subject: Sugar 0.82.1 is in rawhide Message-ID: Hello, I built Glucose 0.82.1 in joyride during the weekend. It includes the bundlebuilder changes we discussed. I can build the Journal with the following spec: http://dev.laptop.org/~marco/sugar-journal.spec Does it look good? If so I can build also the Journal and we can update the guidelines and start packaging activities. Cheers, Marco From katzj at redhat.com Tue Sep 2 17:39:14 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 13:39:14 -0400 Subject: Sugar 0.82.1 is in rawhide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1220377154.4903.7.camel@erebor.bos.redhat.com> On Mon, 2008-09-01 at 10:04 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: > I built Glucose 0.82.1 in joyride during the weekend. > > It includes the bundlebuilder changes we discussed. I can build the > Journal with the following spec: > > http://dev.laptop.org/~marco/sugar-journal.spec > > Does it look good? If so I can build also the Journal and we can > update the guidelines and start packaging activities. Okay, I've now built a few activities with the changes (terminal which was already in review and just submitted calculator and chat packages as 460924 and 460928 respectively). This makes what's done basically the same as what we do for everything else in the distro. So success! :-) Jeremy From gdk at redhat.com Tue Sep 2 19:26:44 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora/OLPC meeting summary: Friday, August 29th Message-ID: A summary of what's been going on in the world of Fedora and OLPC. :) 1. Fedora on OLPC. The goal: to get a version of Fedora booting on OLPC hardware. Looks like we've got a version booting, and now we're looking to clean it up a bit before we make it more generally available. Issues and owners: a. Using localized spins to cut down on space. (sdziallas) b. Troubleshooting performance issues -- running from USB is painfully slow. (katzj) 2. Sugar in Fedora. The goal: to get Sugar packaged as a top-notch desktop environment for Fedora. Issues and owners: a. Bundlebuilder changes to make packaging activities easier. (marcopg) b. Figuring out the pyxpcom/xulrunner issues to get the browse activity working with native Fedora packages. (katzj/caillon) c. Continuing to package Sugar activities, which will be much easier when marcopg is done with bundlebuilder changes. (See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WishList#Activities for list of important activities.) d. There's a large increase of python memory usage f7->f9, which is hard on Sugar performance-wise, still investigating. (marcopg/tomeu) That's it. We'll meet again this coming Friday to go over progress, and since some of us will be at FUDCon Brno, maybe we will share some of the work that's going on there. --g From katzj at redhat.com Tue Sep 2 21:39:51 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:39:51 -0400 Subject: Fedora/OLPC meeting summary: Friday, August 29th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1220391591.17066.23.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 15:26 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > b. Troubleshooting performance issues -- running from USB is painfully > slow. (katzj) Things definitely seem faster for me off of my (fairly old) SD card and swap also made a difference. Will hopefully sit down and quantify this better in the next couple of days. In which time we'll hopefully also get a non-broken rawhide > 2. Sugar in Fedora. The goal: to get Sugar packaged as a top-notch > desktop environment for Fedora. Issues and owners: > > a. Bundlebuilder changes to make packaging activities easier. (marcopg) These landed over the weekend > c. Continuing to package Sugar activities, which will be much easier when > marcopg is done with bundlebuilder changes. > (See https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WishList#Activities > for list of important activities.) Continuing to file some of these. If anyone else wants to, they're very straight-forward at this point Jeremy From jwilliam at xmission.com Wed Sep 3 04:13:54 2008 From: jwilliam at xmission.com (Jerry Williams) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:13:54 -0600 Subject: Sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha looking good In-Reply-To: <1218479562.25627.6.camel@aglarond.local> References: <28FFE5E2034D440580AA911F4DA13402@Q9450><489B754B.5040409@gmail.com> <489B81B7.9040308@projetofedora.org><489BFBEB.3070607@schampijer.de> <489BFF9C.1070208@gmail.com><1218205318.22759.4.camel@aglarond.local> <489D572A.7060906@gmail.com> <1218479562.25627.6.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: The sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha is looking pretty good! Just wondering what I can do to help? I am running it on VirtualBox and it comes up and looks right. But the Journal seems to be having issues. I can get into the control panel and change colors but can't save them. And I don't have any Activities that I can see, other that Journal. Thanks! Jerry Williams From gdk at redhat.com Wed Sep 3 06:54:35 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 02:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha looking good In-Reply-To: References: <28FFE5E2034D440580AA911F4DA13402@Q9450><489B754B.5040409@gmail.com> <489B81B7.9040308@projetofedora.org><489BFBEB.3070607@schampijer.de> <489BFF9C.1070208@gmail.com><1218205318.22759.4.camel@aglarond.local> <489D572A.7060906@gmail.com> <1218479562.25627.6.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Sep 2008, Jerry Williams wrote: > The sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha is looking pretty good! > > Just wondering what I can do to help? If you're interested in packaging work, packaging RPMs of more activities could be fun and relatively easy. And since you're not finding any other activies... :) Check it out: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WishList#OLPC_Wishlist --g > I am running it on VirtualBox and it comes up and looks right. > But the Journal seems to be having issues. > I can get into the control panel and change colors but can't save them. > And I don't have any Activities that I can see, other that Journal. > > Thanks! > Jerry Williams > > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-olpc-list mailing list > Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list > From simon at schampijer.de Wed Sep 3 08:33:32 2008 From: simon at schampijer.de (Simon Schampijer) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:33:32 +0200 Subject: Sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha looking good In-Reply-To: References: <28FFE5E2034D440580AA911F4DA13402@Q9450><489B754B.5040409@gmail.com> <489B81B7.9040308@projetofedora.org><489BFBEB.3070607@schampijer.de> <489BFF9C.1070208@gmail.com><1218205318.22759.4.camel@aglarond.local> <489D572A.7060906@gmail.com> <1218479562.25627.6.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <48BE4BDC.1060306@schampijer.de> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Sep 2008, Jerry Williams wrote: > >> The sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha is looking pretty good! >> >> Just wondering what I can do to help? > > If you're interested in packaging work, packaging RPMs of more > activities could be fun and relatively easy. And since you're not > finding any other activies... :) > > Check it out: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WishList#OLPC_Wishlist > > --g Here are some notes from my playing with sugar on F10 yesterday. a) activity installation which - the bundlebuilder change has been made and the packaging is on it's way now b) xulrunner (we have a specific OLPC version of this build) - enable pyxpcom in F-10 package #436581 - a no-native-theme patch (this must be fixed properly to be accepted) - rainbow patch (which does not affect us on Fedora) c) NM (switch to 0.7) - the sugar nmclient and the presence service have to be updated to the new API (GetDevices instead of getDevices etc) - maybe some other changes in NM - would be a rewarding work since olpc and other distros would profit as well d) better resolution handling - the current code is optimized for the XO e) logout option - currently there is no logout option http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8141 f) language - on the XO we use ~/.i18n to store the locale - a reason for this was to not need root-privileges to change the language Best, Simon From mpgritti at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 08:37:13 2008 From: mpgritti at gmail.com (Marco Pesenti Gritti) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:37:13 +0200 Subject: Sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha looking good In-Reply-To: <48BE4BDC.1060306@schampijer.de> References: <28FFE5E2034D440580AA911F4DA13402@Q9450> <489B81B7.9040308@projetofedora.org> <489BFBEB.3070607@schampijer.de> <489BFF9C.1070208@gmail.com> <1218205318.22759.4.camel@aglarond.local> <489D572A.7060906@gmail.com> <1218479562.25627.6.camel@aglarond.local> <48BE4BDC.1060306@schampijer.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Simon Schampijer wrote: > b) xulrunner (we have a specific OLPC version of this build) > - enable pyxpcom in F-10 package #436581 > - a no-native-theme patch (this must be fixed properly to be accepted) Actually it's sugar and his gtk theme that needs to be fixed to not require the patch. Might need mozilla changes but we should work on these upstream. Marco From katzj at redhat.com Wed Sep 3 13:08:44 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 09:08:44 -0400 Subject: Sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha looking good In-Reply-To: <48BE4BDC.1060306@schampijer.de> References: <28FFE5E2034D440580AA911F4DA13402@Q9450> <489B754B.5040409@gmail.com> <489B81B7.9040308@projetofedora.org> <489BFBEB.3070607@schampijer.de> <489BFF9C.1070208@gmail.com> <1218205318.22759.4.camel@aglarond.local> <489D572A.7060906@gmail.com> <1218479562.25627.6.camel@aglarond.local> <48BE4BDC.1060306@schampijer.de> Message-ID: <1220447324.2102.1.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 10:33 +0200, Simon Schampijer wrote: > f) language > - on the XO we use ~/.i18n to store the locale > - a reason for this was to not need root-privileges to change the > language Using ~/.i18n is actually reasonable and the right way to set a per-user language setting. Jeremy From jg at laptop.org Wed Sep 3 15:08:17 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 11:08:17 -0400 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... Message-ID: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> As the following touches many topics, please reply suitably modifying the subject line. I'd like to start a discussion about what applications set to include on a spin targeted at G1G1 purchasers looking for a "conventional" laptop. Daniel Drake's initial experiments make it seem like with care a Gnome desktop is usable, which is a much more polished environment than xfce (which while smaller, is much more of a hacker's system), if one is careful on app selection. Having said that, if someone wants to do an xfce spin too, that is not a bad thing to have in one's hip pocket. For the basic spin, we'll have very limited flash, and should not presume the use of swap (so RAM matters too). Here's some things that I think are a given (note that others are very open to discussion)... Remember: we have a zero-sum game here. Everything we put in, requires we take things out... The question will just be what to take out, and how much work it will require to do any needed repackaging... Toolkit stack ------------- GTK+/Pango/cairo toolkit for UI applications (for I18N and Sugar compatibility) ATK, but only as an option (it pulls in some of the more objectionable bonobo dependencies at the moment). Avoid Mono libraries in basic load (footprint) Window Manager -------------- Metacity Definite outs ------------- Open Office (too big basic footprint; users can load if they want/need it) Evolution (Oink, Oink) Graphics drivers for everyone else's hardware: these add up Fonts We'll need to sort through a lot of these and nuke a lot of bitmap and other fonts (e.g. type1, etc). Extra themes Extra Wallpaper Some icon sizes, those generally used at 72DPI. Basic apps and accessories ========================== Panel Applications Accessories Archive Manager (dependencies?) Calculator Character map Screen shot Text editor Games What games? Can we afford the gnome assortment, or must we repackage for size reasons? Download size is only a bit over 1 meg compressed bz2, so I'm tempted to include them all. Graphics Some camera app for the camera (see below) Some image viewer. (see below) Internet Mail client (see below) Firefox RSS reader (see below) Instant message program (see below) Office Abiword Gnumeric Sound and Video Totem Rythymbox (see below???) Pulseaudio volume control? Sound recorder System tools Disk Management File Browser SE Linux stuff (can we afford SELinux????) System Log System Monitor Terminal Panel->System Preferences Personal About Me File Management Keyboard Shortcuts Preferred Applications (dependencies may kill us). Sessions Look and Feel Appearance Main Menu Screen Saver Windows Internet and Network Network Proxy Hardware Default Printer (see below) Keyboard Mouse Sound Volume Control Systems Authorizations (????) Power Management System Update Administration Add/Remove Software Date & Time Firewall (?) Language Network Network Device Control Printing (see below) SELinux Management (if we can afford SELinux....) Services Software Sources Update System Applets Custom app launcer Application Launcer Character Palette Clock (if we don't get screwed by the cities data) Command Line Disk Mounter Drawer? (does anyone use these?????) Force Quit Lock Screen Log out Main Menu Menu Bar Network Monitor Notification Area Run Application Separator Show Desktop Shutdown Sticky notes (Tomboy pulls in Mono, IIRC). Trash Volume control Window List Window Selector Definite ins ------------ Gnumeric Abiword Firefox (some may question this, but I'm not yet sold on webkit) evince Meta-packages ------------- I'd love to have a few metapackages to pull in a set of o Sugar!! (unless we squeeze enough to get in the base image, which is my first choice...) o regular games o educational games o graphics - (gimp, inkscape, others) o If we need to strip below where we would like to get olpc-update to be an installation path, a meta-package to pull in the rest of basic functionality. o accessibility Questions ========= All these need to be vetted for size and dependencies!!!!! 1) mail client.... The logical candidates would include Thunderbird, Claws, Sylpheed, Balsa. Are there others? Sylpheed has poor docs. I'd be quite interested in Thunderbird, but right now, Thunderbird 2 is based on the old gecko engine, and won't make it in time, so would come at a higher cost of both flash and RAM footprint. Possibilities I know of boil down to Claws and Balsa. Opinions? 2) RSS reader.... Claws has a plug in; Firefox can do it, but dunno how well; others? 3) Printing... Several options: a) none at all unless you yum install it b) default config cups client library only (no cups server); if you are in an IPP environment, you can then find a cups server (Linux or Mac) and use it, or could the last I tried (2.5 years ago) - any volunteers? This is literally like 1 file to configure and test (I had some trouble in the large MIT Media Lab environment when I tried it 2.5 years ago. c) minimal configuration of printer drivers for most popular printers - but who would do this work? Would be generally beneficial, however, to cull a lot of antique prs.inter d) full printing database - probably not feasible at all and would be best left to yum install.hat 4) What themes? 5) What camera application? Need something to demo the camera in the XO. This will likely need testing, as gstreamer/VFL2 seems immature in OLPC's experience.... 6) what IM client? And don't suggest xchat ;-) Pidgin? 7) music player Rhythmbox? or something else? There are many to choose from. 8) Our screen is small, and the keyboard inappropriate for people with disabilities under many circumstances. I think we should keep accessibility out of the basic load if we can, to save space. But a meta package to pull in the usual stuff is well worthwhile, as the size and cost of the OLPC has in particular attracted the interest of people with certain classes of disabilities. I still worry about its memory footprint, however. - Jim -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From sayamindu at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 16:10:00 2008 From: sayamindu at gmail.com (Sayamindu Dasgupta) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 21:40:00 +0530 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: Some comments inline : On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Jim Gettys wrote: > > Fonts > We'll need to sort through a lot of these and nuke a lot > of bitmap and other fonts (e.g. type1, etc). > Wrt fonts: I would suggest having the Dejavu series of fonts and the Liberation series. The primary target is G1G1 users, as per my understanding, and in that case, these two fonts should cover most of the requirements. > Games > What games? Can we afford the gnome assortment, or > must we repackage for size reasons? Download size is only a bit > over 1 meg compressed bz2, so I'm tempted to include them all. gnome-games was split in the past to have a separate package for the heavy (dis space wise) components like extra artwork, themes, etc. In that case the base gnome-games package can be included, I think. > > Definite ins > ------------ > Gnumeric > Abiword > Firefox (some may question this, but I'm not yet sold on webkit) Some suggest that Epiphany is lighter than firefox at times - I'm not sure whether this is true or not. Also, if Epiphany-webkit is packaged for Fedora, I would definitely like to give it a shot. > > 5) What camera application? Need something to demo the camera in the > XO. This will likely need testing, as gstreamer/VFL2 seems immature in > OLPC's experience.... > Cheese is an application that comes to my mind. It should (hopefully) work with the XO camera out of the box. > 7) music player Rhythmbox? or something else? There are many to choose > from. > The other major contender would be banshee - it's dependency on Mono leaves it out. Thanks, Sayamindu -- Sayamindu Dasgupta [http://sayamindu.randomink.org/ramblings] From ivazqueznet at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 16:12:52 2008 From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 12:12:52 -0400 Subject: RSS Reader (was: Re: Applications selection discussion....) In-Reply-To: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: <1220458372.17290.156.camel@ignacio.lan> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 11:08 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: > 2) RSS reader.... Claws has a plug in; Firefox can do it, but dunno how > well; others? The atrocious liferea is probably one of the best RSS readers in Fedora. -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From jg at laptop.org Wed Sep 3 16:52:16 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 12:52:16 -0400 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: <1220460736.9856.97.camel@jg-vaio> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 21:40 +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote: > Some comments inline : > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Jim Gettys wrote: > > > > > Fonts > > We'll need to sort through a lot of these and nuke a lot > > of bitmap and other fonts (e.g. type1, etc). > > > > Wrt fonts: I would suggest having the Dejavu series of fonts and the > Liberation series. The primary target is G1G1 users, as per my > understanding, and in that case, these two fonts should cover most of > the requirements. Yes, until we get into eastern languages. But I don't want to go there initially.... Anyone care to spend some time to package a set of font aliases to cause use of outline fonts for the common antique bitmap families? This would be good in general to start weaning people off those disk space wasters.... I did this for at least a few fonts in the OLPC build (necessary if you run into any bitmap font applications), but stopped once we got flash and java to run that had such dependencies. > > > > Definite ins > > ------------ > > Gnumeric > > Abiword > > Firefox (some may question this, but I'm not yet sold on webkit) > > Some suggest that Epiphany is lighter than firefox at times - I'm not > sure whether this is true or not. Also, if Epiphany-webkit is packaged > for Fedora, I would definitely like to give it a shot. Data, RAM usage, disk footprint and compatibility would be needed to make a webkit sale. o Firefox 3 has done seriously better on memory consumption at the time of its release than other browsers, but it's a (constantly) moving target.... o Also note since Sugar's browse is based on Gecko/Xulrunner, there is sharing there when sugar is installed; installing something else would go to the detriment of the combined footprint for including Sugar. Unless such data appears and is very compelling, I think Firefox is it, at least unless we decide to convert sugar's browse to webkit. I therefore don't plan to spend any time on this evaluation personally. > > 7) music player Rhythmbox? or something else? There are many to choose > > from. > > > > The other major contender would be banshee - it's dependency on Mono > leaves it out. > Ah, that makes it an easy choice, unless there is a third option.... -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From sebastian at when.com Wed Sep 3 17:35:15 2008 From: sebastian at when.com (Sebastian Dziallas) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:35:15 +0200 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: <1220460736.9856.97.camel@jg-vaio> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> <1220460736.9856.97.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: <48BECAD3.8080503@when.com> Jim Gettys wrote: > On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 21:40 +0530, Sayamindu Dasgupta wrote: >> Some comments inline : >> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 8:38 PM, Jim Gettys wrote: [...] snip! >>> Definite ins >>> ------------ >>> Gnumeric >>> Abiword >>> Firefox (some may question this, but I'm not yet sold on webkit) >> Some suggest that Epiphany is lighter than firefox at times - I'm not >> sure whether this is true or not. Also, if Epiphany-webkit is packaged >> for Fedora, I would definitely like to give it a shot. > > Data, RAM usage, disk footprint and compatibility would be needed to > make a webkit sale. > o Firefox 3 has done seriously better on memory consumption at the > time of its release than other browsers, but it's a (constantly) moving > target.... > o Also note since Sugar's browse is based on Gecko/Xulrunner, there is > sharing there when sugar is installed; installing something else would > go to the detriment of the combined footprint for including Sugar. > > Unless such data appears and is very compelling, I think Firefox is it, > at least unless we decide to convert sugar's browse to webkit. I > therefore don't plan to spend any time on this evaluation personally. Well, I'd agree with Jim - Webkit might have gained popularity in the last time, but I don't see a reason to switch, either. Webkit for Epiphany isn't ready yet, since it has been postponed due to issues with rebasing Evolution to Webkit (they want to rebase both Epiphany and Evolution). AFAIK, it won't be ready for Gnome 2.24, and therefore not for F10 (there's this compiling option to use Webkit with Epiphany, but...). >>> 7) music player Rhythmbox? or something else? There are many to choose >>> from. >>> >> The other major contender would be banshee - it's dependency on Mono >> leaves it out. >> > > Ah, that makes it an easy choice, unless there is a third option.... Heh. Want me to come up with more? ;) Well, the first question is, do we want to have something like Rhythmbox or Banshee in (I mean this iTunes-like music library) - or do we just want to stick with a normal player like Totem. If the first is the case, then we've... rhythmbox, /me personally prefers this one banshee, pulling in mono, so no real option imo exaile, a amarok clone (not a real clone) based on GTK and Python quodlibet, another music library, based on GTK and Python There's more stuff around... but I'm just adding 'em for completeness: If you want still talk about the mono, there's still stuff like cowbell and muine around. And if you need to go the complicated way, we could even run for songbird... --Sebastian From sebastian at when.com Wed Sep 3 17:39:30 2008 From: sebastian at when.com (Sebastian Dziallas) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:39:30 +0200 Subject: RSS Reader In-Reply-To: <1220458372.17290.156.camel@ignacio.lan> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> <1220458372.17290.156.camel@ignacio.lan> Message-ID: <48BECBD2.7060504@when.com> Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote: > On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 11:08 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: >> 2) RSS reader.... Claws has a plug in; Firefox can do it, but dunno how >> well; others? > > The atrocious liferea is probably one of the best RSS readers in Fedora. /me agrees. I think liferea pretty good, too - the question is, whether we need a seperate RSS reader: If yes, there are blam (which pulls in mono and is therefore no option) and penguin-tv (on which the XO activity is based on) around. The latter one isn't included in Fedora right now afaics, but they provide an RPM on sf.net... if we don't need a seperate one: see above! --Sebastian From jg at laptop.org Wed Sep 3 17:50:57 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 13:50:57 -0400 Subject: RSS Reader In-Reply-To: <48BECBD2.7060504@when.com> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> <1220458372.17290.156.camel@ignacio.lan> <48BECBD2.7060504@when.com> Message-ID: <1220464257.9856.101.camel@jg-vaio> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 19:39 +0200, Sebastian Dziallas wrote: > I think liferea pretty good, too - the question is, whether we need a > seperate RSS reader: If yes, there are blam (which pulls in mono and is > therefore no option) and penguin-tv (on which the XO activity is based > on) around. The latter one isn't included in Fedora right now afaics, > but they provide an RPM on sf.net... if we don't need a seperate one: > see above! > > --Sebastian As always, depends on size and dependencies. But we can certainly punt entirely. - Jim -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From katzj at redhat.com Wed Sep 3 18:50:44 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:50:44 -0400 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: <1220467844.2102.51.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 11:08 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: > As the following touches many topics, please reply suitably modifying > the subject line. > > I'd like to start a discussion about what applications set to include on > a spin targeted at G1G1 purchasers looking for a "conventional" laptop. > Daniel Drake's initial experiments make it seem like with care a Gnome > desktop is usable, which is a much more polished environment than xfce > (which while smaller, is much more of a hacker's system), if one is > careful on app selection. Having said that, if someone wants to do an > xfce spin too, that is not a bad thing to have in one's hip pocket. So, the thing is, rather than trying to think about a bazillion different spins that each largely replicate decisions that already have to be made in other situations, I think there's instead a lot of value in just ensuring that a user with a G1G1 can just download *any* spin of Fedora, put it on a USB stick/SD card and use it. Then the discussion could still be relevant for a preloaded "dual-boot" XO, but exactly how much so could be debatable. > Toolkit stack > ------------- > ATK, but only as an option (it pulls in some of the more objectionable > bonobo dependencies at the moment). ATK itself is, I suspect, pretty much impossible to avoid. The higher level bits that are actually the accessibility implementations I can see not including > Avoid Mono libraries in basic load > (footprint) We leave mono off of most of the live images already due to space constraints > Definite outs > ------------- > Open Office > (too big basic footprint; users can load if they want/need it) Yep, again, matches what we do with the default live image > Fonts > We'll need to sort through a lot of these and nuke a lot > of bitmap and other fonts (e.g. type1, etc). The default font set that's being installed now should be pretty reasonable. If not, letting someone from the fonts SIG know would be a lot better than just pulling haphazardly. > Games > What games? Can we afford the gnome assortment, or > must we repackage for size reasons? Download size is only a bit > over 1 meg compressed bz2, so I'm tempted to include them all. Yeah, the basic gnome-games isn't big at this point and is a reasonable set. > Graphics > Some camera app for the camera (see below) cheese should be being installed by default now and works okay > o graphics - (gimp, inkscape, others) inkscape ends up being expensive as its one of very few things which requires gtkmm. > 1) mail client.... The logical candidates would include Thunderbird, > Claws, Sylpheed, Balsa. Are there others? Sylpheed has poor docs. I'd > be quite interested in Thunderbird, but right now, Thunderbird 2 is > based on the old gecko engine, and won't make it in time, so would come > at a higher cost of both flash and RAM footprint. > > Possibilities I know of boil down to Claws and Balsa. Opinions? Claws is just an obsolete version of Sylpheed that's basically not maintained anymore iirc. Balsa is ... not good. Maybe someone looking at building tinymail and modest would be interesting. As if it can fit on the n8x0, then surely it should be fine for the XO. > 2) RSS reader.... Claws has a plug in; Firefox can do it, but dunno how > well; others? How many people really use standalone rss readers? I'm not really sure this is something that matters as part of a "default" application set. > 3) Printing... Several options: > a) none at all unless you yum install it > b) default config cups client library only (no cups server); If you don't have cups-libs, you don't have GTK+. So a) really isn't an option. This might work, but owuld need someone testing > 4) What themes? While it's silly, having a few things to choose from by default here really makes people feel "better" about it being a complete desktop. If your target is someone using their G1G1 as a "normal-ish" laptop, then having a few themes by default is worth the small cost > 5) What camera application? Need something to demo the camera in the > XO. This will likely need testing, as gstreamer/VFL2 seems immature in > OLPC's experience.... cheese should be the answer here. And if it's not good enough, file bugs/fix it. > 6) what IM client? And don't suggest xchat ;-) Pidgin? With Fedora 10, there may be a transition to empathy from pidgin -- it's at least being tested out for the beta. Following that is likely the best plan > 7) music player Rhythmbox? or something else? There are many to choose > from. As someone else said later in the thread, if you just want to play a few songs (seems somewhat likely given the lack of storage :), totem may well be plenty here. Jeremy From jg at laptop.org Wed Sep 3 19:06:14 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:06:14 -0400 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: <1220467844.2102.51.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> <1220467844.2102.51.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1220468774.9856.152.camel@jg-vaio> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 14:50 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 11:08 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: > > As the following touches many topics, please reply suitably modifying > > the subject line. > > > > I'd like to start a discussion about what applications set to include on > > a spin targeted at G1G1 purchasers looking for a "conventional" laptop. > > Daniel Drake's initial experiments make it seem like with care a Gnome > > desktop is usable, which is a much more polished environment than xfce > > (which while smaller, is much more of a hacker's system), if one is > > careful on app selection. Having said that, if someone wants to do an > > xfce spin too, that is not a bad thing to have in one's hip pocket. > > So, the thing is, rather than trying to think about a bazillion > different spins that each largely replicate decisions that already have > to be made in other situations, I think there's instead a lot of value > in just ensuring that a user with a G1G1 can just download *any* spin of > Fedora, put it on a USB stick/SD card and use it. Yes, but right now, the requisite kernel support is not available. Nor will any existing spin fit in 1GB of internal flash. So we need something for the moment. > > Then the discussion could still be relevant for a preloaded "dual-boot" > XO, but exactly how much so could be debatable. > > > Toolkit stack > > ------------- > > ATK, but only as an option (it pulls in some of the more objectionable > > bonobo dependencies at the moment). > > ATK itself is, I suspect, pretty much impossible to avoid. The higher > level bits that are actually the accessibility implementations I can see > not including Could be... > > Fonts > > We'll need to sort through a lot of these and nuke a lot > > of bitmap and other fonts (e.g. type1, etc). > > The default font set that's being installed now should be pretty > reasonable. If not, letting someone from the fonts SIG know would be a > lot better than just pulling haphazardly. Sure... But it looks like there is a significant amount of space to be had. /usr/share/fonts# du 1684 ./default/ghostscript 4536 ./default/Type1 6224 ./default 296 ./mathml 7076 ./bitmap-fonts 13600 . The Type1 renderer we have is terrible, and the bitmap fonts are antique and not used by any current modern Linux application. Some fallbacks need to exist, however. > > inkscape ends up being expensive as its one of very few things which requires gtkmm. > Interesting. > > 1) mail client.... The logical candidates would include Thunderbird, > > Claws, Sylpheed, Balsa. Are there others? Sylpheed has poor docs. I'd > > be quite interested in Thunderbird, but right now, Thunderbird 2 is > > based on the old gecko engine, and won't make it in time, so would come > > at a higher cost of both flash and RAM footprint. > > > > Possibilities I know of boil down to Claws and Balsa. Opinions? > > Claws is just an obsolete version of Sylpheed that's basically not > maintained anymore iirc. Balsa is ... not good. I think you have it backwards; sylpheed-claws was the predecessor to claws, and is not maintained anymore. Sylpheed seems less developed. > > Maybe someone looking at building tinymail and modest would be > interesting. As if it can fit on the n8x0, then surely it should be > fine for the XO. > > > 2) RSS reader.... Claws has a plug in; Firefox can do it, but dunno how > > well; others? > > How many people really use standalone rss readers? I'm not really sure > this is something that matters as part of a "default" application set. OK, we seem to be getting to consensus: don't worry about rss at all. > > > 3) Printing... Several options: > > a) none at all unless you yum install it > > b) default config cups client library only (no cups server); > > If you don't have cups-libs, you don't have GTK+. So a) really isn't an > option. This might work, but owuld need someone testing cups-libs certainly has to exist; but it's a gnome print dependency rather than GTK+, just to be pedantic. > > > 4) What themes? > > While it's silly, having a few things to choose from by default here > really makes people feel "better" about it being a complete desktop. If > your target is someone using their G1G1 as a "normal-ish" laptop, then > having a few themes by default is worth the small cost OK, let's plan on 2 themes, unless space gets really tight. > > > 5) What camera application? Need something to demo the camera in the > > XO. This will likely need testing, as gstreamer/VFL2 seems immature in > > OLPC's experience.... > > cheese should be the answer here. And if it's not good enough, file > bugs/fix it. Presuming dependencies are tolerable, let's go for it. > > > 6) what IM client? And don't suggest xchat ;-) Pidgin? > > With Fedora 10, there may be a transition to empathy from pidgin -- it's > at least being tested out for the beta. Following that is likely the > best plan > > > 7) music player Rhythmbox? or something else? There are many to choose > > from. > > As someone else said later in the thread, if you just want to play a few > songs (seems somewhat likely given the lack of storage :), totem may > well be plenty here. > OK, we'll leave a music player off the initial manifest, beyond what totem provides. -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From jwilliam at xmission.com Wed Sep 3 19:21:46 2008 From: jwilliam at xmission.com (Jerry Williams) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:21:46 -0600 Subject: Sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha looking good In-Reply-To: References: <28FFE5E2034D440580AA911F4DA13402@Q9450><489B754B.5040409@gmail.com><489B81B7.9040308@projetofedora.org><489BFBEB.3070607@schampijer.de><489BFF9C.1070208@gmail.com><1218205318.22759.4.camel@aglarond.local><489D572A.7060906@gmail.com><1218479562.25627.6.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <88711BCA51E34DBE916079782B08D7C0@Q9450> Well I can change the colors now. :) And I see the Journal now, but it's empty. Not sure why I am getting these: (sugar-shell:2801): atk-bridge-WARNING **: AT_SPI_REGISTRY was not started at session startup. (sugar-shell:2801): atk-bridge-WARNING **: IOR not set. (sugar-shell:2801): atk-bridge-WARNING **: Could not locate registry 1220469469.194451 WARNING root: No gtk.AccelGroup in the top level window. 1220469469.201552 WARNING root: No gtk.AccelGroup in the top level window. ** (sugar-shell:2801): DEBUG: ending phase 5 1220469469.288627 ERROR dbus.proxies: Introspect error on org.freedesktop.ohm:/org/freedesktop/ohm/Keystore: dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.ohm was not provided by any .service files 1220469469.605417 ERROR root: Cannot unfreeze the DCON (sugar-shell:2801): Wnck-WARNING **: Property _NET_WM_NAME contained invalid UTF-8 [u'sugar-activity', u'journalactivity.JournalActivity', '-b', dbus.String(u'org.laptop.JournalActivity', variant_level=1), '-a', '594328a51f17127d71412cc60c41463bce6b4e5e'] * Thanks, Jerry Williams > -----Original Message----- > From: fedora-olpc-list-bounces at redhat.com [mailto:fedora-olpc-list- > bounces at redhat.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Williams > Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 10:14 PM > To: 'fedora-olpc-list' > Subject: Sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha looking good > > The sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha is looking pretty good! > > Just wondering what I can do to help? > > I am running it on VirtualBox and it comes up and looks right. > But the Journal seems to be having issues. > I can get into the control panel and change colors but can't save them. > And I don't have any Activities that I can see, other that Journal. > > Thanks! > Jerry Williams > > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-olpc-list mailing list > Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list From katzj at redhat.com Wed Sep 3 20:18:47 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:18:47 -0400 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: <1220468774.9856.152.camel@jg-vaio> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> <1220467844.2102.51.camel@aglarond.local> <1220468774.9856.152.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: <1220473127.2102.72.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 15:06 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: > On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 14:50 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 11:08 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: > > > As the following touches many topics, please reply suitably modifying > > > the subject line. > > > > > > I'd like to start a discussion about what applications set to include on > > > a spin targeted at G1G1 purchasers looking for a "conventional" laptop. > > > Daniel Drake's initial experiments make it seem like with care a Gnome > > > desktop is usable, which is a much more polished environment than xfce > > > (which while smaller, is much more of a hacker's system), if one is > > > careful on app selection. Having said that, if someone wants to do an > > > xfce spin too, that is not a bad thing to have in one's hip pocket. > > > > So, the thing is, rather than trying to think about a bazillion > > different spins that each largely replicate decisions that already have > > to be made in other situations, I think there's instead a lot of value > > in just ensuring that a user with a G1G1 can just download *any* spin of > > Fedora, put it on a USB stick/SD card and use it. > > Yes, but right now, the requisite kernel support is not available. Based on the previous discussion -- all the big bits are upstream now and just a matter of config, no? Yes, maybe it's not as "perfect" of a kernel in that there are some fixes which have not yet made it upstream, but either a) they're not critical or b) if they're important, carrying a critical fix in the Fedora kernel is doable as long as its being pushed upstream at the same time > Nor will any existing spin fit in 1GB of internal flash. We fit on 700 meg CDs, so it's definitely doable. There's nothing that would fundamentally prevent the way we do things for the cds to also function off of jffs2. Two different compressions is kind of silly, though. Also, I did state "off of a USB stick or SD card". I actually think that in a lot of ways, that's better because it means that we can not worry about using any of the built-in flash leaving all of it for use with Sugar and then wanting to run a joyride build, etc. > > > Fonts > > > We'll need to sort through a lot of these and nuke a lot > > > of bitmap and other fonts (e.g. type1, etc). > > > > The default font set that's being installed now should be pretty > > reasonable. If not, letting someone from the fonts SIG know would be a > > lot better than just pulling haphazardly. > > Sure... But it looks like there is a significant amount of space to be > had. > > /usr/share/fonts# du [snip] > 13600 . > > The Type1 renderer we have is terrible, and the bitmap fonts are antique > and not used by any current modern Linux application. Some fallbacks > need to exist, however. As I said, though -- rather than just pulling from a spin that's specific to the OLPC, let's work with the people on the font SIG. If they're not needed on the OLPC, there's a pretty good chance they're not needed in other cases as well. Then we can have the efforts benefit all of Fedora (freeing up 13 megs means more space for apps on the regular livecds too) rather than just something done off in OLPC-land > > > 1) mail client.... The logical candidates would include Thunderbird, > > > Claws, Sylpheed, Balsa. Are there others? Sylpheed has poor docs. I'd > > > be quite interested in Thunderbird, but right now, Thunderbird 2 is > > > based on the old gecko engine, and won't make it in time, so would come > > > at a higher cost of both flash and RAM footprint. > > > > > > Possibilities I know of boil down to Claws and Balsa. Opinions? > > > > Claws is just an obsolete version of Sylpheed that's basically not > > maintained anymore iirc. Balsa is ... not good. > > I think you have it backwards; sylpheed-claws was the predecessor to > claws, and is not maintained anymore. Sylpheed seems less developed. Err, yes -- I need more caffeine clearly. The point about the maturity of the app stands :) > > > 3) Printing... Several options: > > > a) none at all unless you yum install it > > > b) default config cups client library only (no cups server); > > > > If you don't have cups-libs, you don't have GTK+. So a) really isn't an > > option. This might work, but owuld need someone testing > > cups-libs certainly has to exist; but it's a gnome print dependency > rather than GTK+, just to be pedantic. No, GTK+ provides printing widgets and directly uses libcups as of GTK+ 2.10. > > > 5) What camera application? Need something to demo the camera in the > > > XO. This will likely need testing, as gstreamer/VFL2 seems immature in > > > OLPC's experience.... > > > > cheese should be the answer here. And if it's not good enough, file > > bugs/fix it. > > Presuming dependencies are tolerable, let's go for it. It didn't end up pulling anything beyond itself into the live images when I added it a month or two ago, so it should be good. That's actually one of the nice things about it Jeremy From jg at laptop.org Wed Sep 3 21:01:04 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 17:01:04 -0400 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: <1220473127.2102.72.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> <1220467844.2102.51.camel@aglarond.local> <1220468774.9856.152.camel@jg-vaio> <1220473127.2102.72.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1220475664.9856.182.camel@jg-vaio> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 16:18 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > So, the thing is, rather than trying to think about a bazillion > > > different spins that each largely replicate decisions that already have > > > to be made in other situations, I think there's instead a lot of value > > > in just ensuring that a user with a G1G1 can just download *any* spin of > > > Fedora, put it on a USB stick/SD card and use it. Certainly a good goal, but I think we're unlikely to make it for F10/G1G1. And I sure want a spin including sugar if at all possible. > > > > Yes, but right now, the requisite kernel support is not available. > > Based on the previous discussion -- all the big bits are upstream now > and just a matter of config, no? Yes, maybe it's not as "perfect" of a > kernel in that there are some fixes which have not yet made it upstream, > but either > a) they're not critical or A generic kernel config on kernel.org won't boot: we use fbdev, and do *not* have support for VESA in the firmware, which the usual x86 kernels presume to print to the console. How much work it will be to get to where it might be able to boot a generic x86 kernel is is an interesting question, but one we're not likely to be able to solve in the short term. > b) if they're important, carrying a critical fix in the Fedora kernel is > doable as long as its being pushed upstream at the same time Andres has been working on this; but we're not done yet. By far the most supportable situation in the short term is a kernel that is the same as we already support in the OLPC builds. A few of the remaining big patches have been contentious, as there have been several competing versions of the same feature (device tree, in particular). I'll chat with Andres to get a feel for where we are with this and related topics. I'm hopeful in 3-6 months the situation will be different.... But that's beyond the initial need. > > > Nor will any existing spin fit in 1GB of internal flash. > > We fit on 700 meg CDs, so it's definitely doable. There's nothing that > would fundamentally prevent the way we do things for the cds to also > function off of jffs2. Two different compressions is kind of silly, > though. Not to mention the performance consequences, which won't be pretty. And writable files need to be stored on the internal flash with JFFS2 anyway to get wear leveling. It isn't like an external SD or USB key that could be replaced if you wear out particular blocks. Bare flash soldered onto a board really wants wear leveling. > > Also, I did state "off of a USB stick or SD card". I actually think > that in a lot of ways, that's better because it means that we can not > worry about using any of the built-in flash leaving all of it for use > with Sugar and then wanting to run a joyride build, etc. For many people it is; but some don't want the issues around having a SD or USB stick. USB sticks in particular are problematic. > > As I said, though -- rather than just pulling from a spin that's > specific to the OLPC, let's work with the people on the font SIG. If > they're not needed on the OLPC, there's a pretty good chance they're not > needed in other cases as well. Then we can have the efforts benefit all > of Fedora (freeing up 13 megs means more space for apps on the regular > livecds too) rather than just something done off in OLPC-land I've started poking at the fedora font SIG. > > Err, yes -- I need more caffeine clearly. The point about the maturity > of the app stands :) Dunno. > > > > > 3) Printing... Several options: > > > > a) none at all unless you yum install it > > > > b) default config cups client library only (no cups server); > > > > > > If you don't have cups-libs, you don't have GTK+. So a) really isn't an > > > option. This might work, but owuld need someone testing > > > > cups-libs certainly has to exist; but it's a gnome print dependency > > rather than GTK+, just to be pedantic. > > No, GTK+ provides printing widgets and directly uses libcups as of GTK+ > 2.10. As I said, you can configure libcups to be strictly a client of a cups server elsewhere on the net (specifically, any IPP server) by configuring a text file, and not have to carry a CUPS server, much less any drivers or driver databases. Most people are not aware that this is even possible, they are so used to having a local CUPS server. I don't know how well it works at present; my experiments are a bit over 2 years old. It worked (albeit a few problems) when I tried this then. - Jim -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From katzj at redhat.com Thu Sep 4 02:40:24 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:40:24 -0400 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: <1220475664.9856.182.camel@jg-vaio> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> <1220467844.2102.51.camel@aglarond.local> <1220468774.9856.152.camel@jg-vaio> <1220473127.2102.72.camel@aglarond.local> <1220475664.9856.182.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: <1220496024.2102.94.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 17:01 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: > On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 16:18 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > > So, the thing is, rather than trying to think about a bazillion > > > > different spins that each largely replicate decisions that already have > > > > to be made in other situations, I think there's instead a lot of value > > > > in just ensuring that a user with a G1G1 can just download *any* spin of > > > > Fedora, put it on a USB stick/SD card and use it. > > Certainly a good goal, but I think we're unlikely to make it for > F10/G1G1. And I sure want a spin including sugar if at all possible. We'll never succeed if we don't try -- I actually think it is pretty possible at this point. It could also end up having the nice side benefit of having one less kernel being built for Fedora by merging to have an x86 and an x86-PAE kernel. > > > Yes, but right now, the requisite kernel support is not available. > > > > Based on the previous discussion -- all the big bits are upstream now > > and just a matter of config, no? Yes, maybe it's not as "perfect" of a > > kernel in that there are some fixes which have not yet made it upstream, > > but either > > a) they're not critical or > > A generic kernel config on kernel.org won't boot: we use fbdev, and do > *not* have support for VESA in the firmware, which the usual x86 kernels > presume to print to the console. How much work it will be to get to > where it might be able to boot a generic x86 kernel is is an interesting > question, but one we're not likely to be able to solve in the short > term. Given that we can do a multitude of framebuffer consoles and have other places where there is no VESA (I'm looking at you Xen) where the main kernel works, this shouldn't be a blocker at all. And I fixed this once for Xen, if I have to dive back into the console code I will. > > b) if they're important, carrying a critical fix in the Fedora kernel is > > doable as long as its being pushed upstream at the same time > > Andres has been working on this; but we're not done yet. By far the > most supportable situation in the short term is a kernel that is the > same as we already support in the OLPC builds. It's not supportable _as Fedora_. We've already seen that with the various one-off changes in the name of expediency and size meaning that the OLPC-build kernels won't work for live images. I was hoping to do some prodding at kernel builds today, but ended up doing some Sugar things most of the day instead > > > Nor will any existing spin fit in 1GB of internal flash. > > > > We fit on 700 meg CDs, so it's definitely doable. There's nothing that > > would fundamentally prevent the way we do things for the cds to also > > function off of jffs2. Two different compressions is kind of silly, > > though. > > Not to mention the performance consequences, which won't be pretty. And > writable files need to be stored on the internal flash with JFFS2 anyway > to get wear leveling. It isn't like an external SD or USB key that > could be replaced if you wear out particular blocks. Bare flash > soldered onto a board really wants wear leveling. The live images don't have writable blocks (except in ram) unless you set up persistence. And getting the persistence able to be run off of the jffs2 should be pretty straight-forward I suspect. > > Also, I did state "off of a USB stick or SD card". I actually think > > that in a lot of ways, that's better because it means that we can not > > worry about using any of the built-in flash leaving all of it for use > > with Sugar and then wanting to run a joyride build, etc. > > For many people it is; but some don't want the issues around having a SD > or USB stick. USB sticks in particular are problematic. What issues are there? I can get 2 gig SD cards for < $10 without any sort of bulk discount, so given that we're talking G1G1 and not the developing countries, cost isn't one. And hey, having a "premium" for a "normal" desktop experience seems to be the norm these days -- see the difference between Linux and XP netbooks :) Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Thu Sep 4 02:47:02 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:47:02 -0400 Subject: Sugar-emulator on Fedora 10 Alpha looking good In-Reply-To: <88711BCA51E34DBE916079782B08D7C0@Q9450> References: <28FFE5E2034D440580AA911F4DA13402@Q9450> <489B754B.5040409@gmail.com><489B81B7.9040308@projetofedora.org> <489BFBEB.3070607@schampijer.de><489BFF9C.1070208@gmail.com> <1218205318.22759.4.camel@aglarond.local><489D572A.7060906@gmail.com> <1218479562.25627.6.camel@aglarond.local> <88711BCA51E34DBE916079782B08D7C0@Q9450> Message-ID: <1220496422.2102.101.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 13:21 -0600, Jerry Williams wrote: > And I see the Journal now, but it's empty. This is likely due to the lack of activities packaged and built. My terminal package is through review and built as of tonight. There are a few others (chat, calculate, write) in the review queue if you want to take a stab at them -- they should be pretty straight forward to review. > Not sure why I am getting these: > (sugar-shell:2801): atk-bridge-WARNING **: AT_SPI_REGISTRY was not started > at session startup. > (sugar-shell:2801): atk-bridge-WARNING **: IOR not set. > (sugar-shell:2801): atk-bridge-WARNING **: Could not locate registry These are all due to accessibility not being started and so ATK disables itself iirc > 1220469469.288627 ERROR dbus.proxies: Introspect error on > org.freedesktop.ohm:/org/freedesktop/ohm/Keystore: > dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: > The name org.freedesktop.ohm was not provided by any .service files > 1220469469.605417 ERROR root: Cannot unfreeze the DCON You won't have ohm running with the emulator as you instead have things like gnome-power-manager running on your real system > (sugar-shell:2801): Wnck-WARNING **: Property _NET_WM_NAME contained invalid > UTF-8 Hmmm, something is setting a bad window property > [u'sugar-activity', u'journalactivity.JournalActivity', '-b', > dbus.String(u'org.laptop.JournalActivity', variant_level=1), '-a', > '594328a51f17127d71412cc60c41463bce6b4e5e'] This is just sugar-shell logging what it's running Jeremy From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 4 05:24:32 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 01:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: <1220473127.2102.72.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> <1220467844.2102.51.camel@aglarond.local> <1220468774.9856.152.camel@jg-vaio> <1220473127.2102.72.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Sep 2008, Jeremy Katz wrote: >> Nor will any existing spin fit in 1GB of internal flash. > > We fit on 700 meg CDs, so it's definitely doable. There's nothing that > would fundamentally prevent the way we do things for the cds to also > function off of jffs2. Two different compressions is kind of silly, > though. > > Also, I did state "off of a USB stick or SD card". I actually think > that in a lot of ways, that's better because it means that we can not > worry about using any of the built-in flash leaving all of it for use > with Sugar and then wanting to run a joyride build, etc. In my latest discussions with Kim, it seems unlikely that we will be able to get something to the hardware manufacturers in time for an "onboard" solution anyway. The latest discussions I had with her centered around putting together an aftermarket solution that "just works", and making it possible for G1G1 folks to purchase that solution when they get the laptop. Which implies that we should be focusing on USB/SD for now -- but Jim, you may want to validate that thinking inside the walls at 1cc. --g From jg at laptop.org Thu Sep 4 12:42:40 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 08:42:40 -0400 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> <1220467844.2102.51.camel@aglarond.local> <1220468774.9856.152.camel@jg-vaio> <1220473127.2102.72.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1220532160.6533.33.camel@jg-vaio> On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 01:24 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > On Wed, 3 Sep 2008, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > >> Nor will any existing spin fit in 1GB of internal flash. > > > > We fit on 700 meg CDs, so it's definitely doable. There's nothing that > > would fundamentally prevent the way we do things for the cds to also > > function off of jffs2. Two different compressions is kind of silly, > > though. It is also a performance killer; you're taking a slow processor and having it decompress twice. We need to get to the bottom of why the current spins are so slow off USB/SD as quickly as possible, while Daniel's native install on SD is very usable. Unfortunately, jffs2 does not have a way to say "don't compress a file", though dwmw2 has talked about this from time to time. Not having wear leveling on bare NAND is a non-starter, if there is any substantial write use. We may need to page to make a viable system, and will need to page to a file. > > > > Also, I did state "off of a USB stick or SD card". I actually think > > that in a lot of ways, that's better because it means that we can not > > worry about using any of the built-in flash leaving all of it for use > > with Sugar and then wanting to run a joyride build, etc. > > In my latest discussions with Kim, it seems unlikely that we will be able > to get something to the hardware manufacturers in time for an "onboard" > solution anyway. But olpc-update allows a late-binding: you can install bits later with no hardware cost. I'm pretty sure a small enough spin is not very hard to do. > The latest discussions I had with her centered around > putting together an aftermarket solution that "just works", and making it > possible for G1G1 folks to purchase that solution when they get the > laptop. > > Which implies that we should be focusing on USB/SD for now -- but Jim, you > may want to validate that thinking inside the walls at 1cc. > I will, though this is not my current understanding from previous conversations; it would make our lives somewhat easier and time is short; we've lost some weeks due to Fedora's mis-adventures, as we're still getting up to speed and have needed more of Jeremy's time than we've been able to get. Having something that can run viably without USB or SD gives Linux a cost advantage over windows. I'm also very concerned about applications selection that is so heavyweight that its performance will be poor: e.g. The stock Fedora desktop includes apps that will get us into pretty immediate trouble in RAM use, I think (e.g. evolution). I don't think an xfce desktop is what the general market will bear, sufficient though it is for hackers. - Jim -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From subhodip at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 4 15:05:49 2008 From: subhodip at fedoraproject.org (subhodip biswas) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 20:35:49 +0530 Subject: suggestion on package review for olpc Message-ID: <539333cb0809040805k6bf0ae9ey6b25f4405433de16@mail.gmail.com> hi ! i pushed this review request : https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=461139 but since this my first package for olpc . i would like to have suggestion on where to push this will it be in fedora or will it be in fedora-olpc . here's the original ticket : http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8221 plus can somebody do a review on this ? -- Regards Subhodip Biswas GPG key : FAEA34AB Server : pgp.mit.edu http://subhodipbiswas.wordpress.com http:/www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/SubhodipBiswas From robin.norwood at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 15:19:49 2008 From: robin.norwood at gmail.com (Robin Norwood) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:19:49 -0400 Subject: suggestion on package review for olpc In-Reply-To: <539333cb0809040805k6bf0ae9ey6b25f4405433de16@mail.gmail.com> References: <539333cb0809040805k6bf0ae9ey6b25f4405433de16@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:05 AM, subhodip biswas wrote: > hi ! > > i pushed this review request : > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=461139 > > but since this my first package for olpc . i would like to have > suggestion on where to push this will it be in fedora or will it be in > fedora-olpc . > > here's the original ticket : http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8221 > > plus can somebody do a review on this ? I can do the standard package review stuff, but I don't know much about fonts. You might want to have Behdad take a look at it too, as he's the owner of pango. (I've Cc'ed him). I'll take another look at it after lunch - I trust it's already packaged as a standard Fedora font package, with nothing OLPC-specific? Assuming it's general-purpose, I would think it would go in Fedora proper. -RN -- Robin Norwood "The Sage does nothing, yet nothing remains undone." -Lao Tzu, Te Tao Ching From katzj at redhat.com Thu Sep 4 15:24:52 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:24:52 -0400 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: <1220532160.6533.33.camel@jg-vaio> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> <1220467844.2102.51.camel@aglarond.local> <1220468774.9856.152.camel@jg-vaio> <1220473127.2102.72.camel@aglarond.local> <1220532160.6533.33.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: <1220541892.2102.114.camel@aglarond.local> On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 08:42 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: > On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 01:24 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Sep 2008, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > >> Nor will any existing spin fit in 1GB of internal flash. > > > > > > We fit on 700 meg CDs, so it's definitely doable. There's nothing that > > > would fundamentally prevent the way we do things for the cds to also > > > function off of jffs2. Two different compressions is kind of silly, > > > though. > > It is also a performance killer; you're taking a slow processor and > having it decompress twice. We need to get to the bottom of why the > current spins are so slow off USB/SD as quickly as possible, while > Daniel's native install on SD is very usable. As I mentioned earlier in the week, trying off of SD was looking quite a bit better as far as usability was concerned. So I think either I picked the wrong USB stick or the one I picked is beginning its death throes. > Unfortunately, jffs2 does not have a way to say "don't compress a file", > though dwmw2 has talked about this from time to time. A bit of an aside and not really relevant for the Fedora on XO discussion, especially in the short-term, but ubifs might be interesting to look at as an alternative to jffs2 as it seems to be adding a lot of the things which have stalled out in jffs2 > Not having wear leveling on bare NAND is a non-starter, if there is any > substantial write use. We may need to page to make a viable system, and > will need to page to a file. Where did anyone even suggest using the bare NAND? > > > Also, I did state "off of a USB stick or SD card". I actually think > > > that in a lot of ways, that's better because it means that we can not > > > worry about using any of the built-in flash leaving all of it for use > > > with Sugar and then wanting to run a joyride build, etc. > > > > In my latest discussions with Kim, it seems unlikely that we will be able > > to get something to the hardware manufacturers in time for an "onboard" > > solution anyway. > > But olpc-update allows a late-binding: you can install bits later with > no hardware cost. I'm pretty sure a small enough spin is not very hard > to do. Making spins is fundamentally trivial. Adding more variations of things to build, support and maintain is not trivial. Jeremy From jg at laptop.org Thu Sep 4 15:39:53 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 11:39:53 -0400 Subject: Applications selection discussion.... In-Reply-To: <1220541892.2102.114.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1220454497.9856.61.camel@jg-vaio> <1220467844.2102.51.camel@aglarond.local> <1220468774.9856.152.camel@jg-vaio> <1220473127.2102.72.camel@aglarond.local> <1220532160.6533.33.camel@jg-vaio> <1220541892.2102.114.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1220542793.6533.45.camel@jg-vaio> On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 11:24 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 08:42 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 01:24 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > > On Wed, 3 Sep 2008, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > >> Nor will any existing spin fit in 1GB of internal flash. > > > > > > > > We fit on 700 meg CDs, so it's definitely doable. There's nothing that > > > > would fundamentally prevent the way we do things for the cds to also > > > > function off of jffs2. Two different compressions is kind of silly, > > > > though. > > > > It is also a performance killer; you're taking a slow processor and > > having it decompress twice. We need to get to the bottom of why the > > current spins are so slow off USB/SD as quickly as possible, while > > Daniel's native install on SD is very usable. > > As I mentioned earlier in the week, trying off of SD was looking quite a > bit better as far as usability was concerned. So I think either I > picked the wrong USB stick or the one I picked is beginning its death > throes. The SD's I have on order haven't come in yet. Daniel's build is on the one 4 gig SD I have; I may have a few slower 1-2 gig SD's I can try. > > > Unfortunately, jffs2 does not have a way to say "don't compress a file", > > though dwmw2 has talked about this from time to time. > > A bit of an aside and not really relevant for the Fedora on XO > discussion, especially in the short-term, but ubifs might be interesting > to look at as an alternative to jffs2 as it seems to be adding a lot of > the things which have stalled out in jffs2 > > > Not having wear leveling on bare NAND is a non-starter, if there is any > > substantial write use. We may need to page to make a viable system, and > > will need to page to a file. > > Where did anyone even suggest using the bare NAND? The internal 1 gig of nand is bare. Interfaced via the CAFE chip. Runs very fast at the hardware level (25 MB/second); extremely low latency, in particular. We're generally compression limited. > > > > > Also, I did state "off of a USB stick or SD card". I actually think > > > > that in a lot of ways, that's better because it means that we can not > > > > worry about using any of the built-in flash leaving all of it for use > > > > with Sugar and then wanting to run a joyride build, etc. > > > > > > In my latest discussions with Kim, it seems unlikely that we will be able > > > to get something to the hardware manufacturers in time for an "onboard" > > > solution anyway. > > > > But olpc-update allows a late-binding: you can install bits later with > > no hardware cost. I'm pretty sure a small enough spin is not very hard > > to do. > > Making spins is fundamentally trivial. Adding more variations of things > to build, support and maintain is not trivial. > I agree; I want, as close as possible, a formal subset of the "normal" fedora desktop, and not to bring in any packages for OLPC beyond the minimum. - Jim -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From gdk at redhat.com Fri Sep 5 10:09:14 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 06:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: An idiot installs Sugar on rawhide Message-ID: That idiot is me. I installed Rawhide as of September 5th, a minimal install. Here's what I did, and what happened. Cut to the end for my idiot follow-up questions. :) === 1. yum install sugar Installs 20 packages. Great. === 2. sugar-emulator Breaks. Still not installing Xephyr. Hmm. === 3. yum install xorg-X11-server-Xephyr Installs Xephyr. Great. === 4. sugar-emulator Traceback, as follows: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/bin/sugar-shell", line 30, in from main import main File "/usr/share/sugar/shell/main.py", line 34, in import view.Shell File "/usr/share/sugar/shell/view/Shell.py", line 38, in from view.frame import frame File "/usr/share/sugar/shell/view/frame/frame.py", line 29, in from view.frame.activitiestray import ActivitiesTray File "/usr/share/sugar/shell/view/frame/activitiestray.py", line 23, in from sugar.graphics.tray import HTray File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sugar/graphics/tray.py", line 22, in from sugar.graphics.palette import Palette, ToolInvoker File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/sugar/graphics/palette.py", line 922, in class WidgetInvoker(Invoker): File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/gtk-2.0/gobject/__init__.py", line 40, in __init__ cls._install_properties() File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/gtk-2.0/gobject/__init__.py", line 68, in _install_properties " or getter. This is not allowed" % (cls,)) TypeError: GObject subclass defines do_get/set_property and it also uses a property which a custom setter or getter. This is not allowed === So. Idiot questions! 1. Who owns the Sugar package, and should we be adding xorg-X11-server-Xephyr as a dependency? 2. Why am I getting this traceback? I'm guessing it's another dependency that isn't getting installed, but I don't know what it is. --g From tomeu at tomeuvizoso.net Fri Sep 5 10:22:49 2008 From: tomeu at tomeuvizoso.net (Tomeu Vizoso) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 12:22:49 +0200 Subject: An idiot installs Sugar on rawhide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <242851610809050322x3b291ab3w28b5b076bfbea043@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > 2. Why am I getting this traceback? I'm guessing it's another dependency > that isn't getting installed, but I don't know what it is. We upstreamed a fix for it some months ago and got into 2.14.2, wonder how we could have regressed on this? http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=523352 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=457122 Regards, Tomeu From gdk at redhat.com Fri Sep 5 10:43:31 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 06:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: An idiot installs Sugar on rawhide In-Reply-To: <242851610809050322x3b291ab3w28b5b076bfbea043@mail.gmail.com> References: <242851610809050322x3b291ab3w28b5b076bfbea043@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Sep 2008, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >> >> 2. Why am I getting this traceback? I'm guessing it's another dependency >> that isn't getting installed, but I don't know what it is. > > We upstreamed a fix for it some months ago and got into 2.14.2, wonder > how we could have regressed on this? > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=523352 > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=457122 No. You did not regress. Remember, I am an idiot! And sometimes an idiot makes a bastardized live image that pulls from the wrong kickstart file! Carry on. :) --g From gdk at redhat.com Fri Sep 5 12:42:32 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 08:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reminder: Fedora OLPC meeting at 1pm Eastern US time today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's 5pm UTC... and 7pm CET for those who are in Brno. :) --g On Fri, 15 Aug 2008, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > On freenode, #fedora-olpc. In about an hour. > > --g > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-olpc-list mailing list > Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list > From gdk at redhat.com Fri Sep 5 13:18:08 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora/OLPC weekly meeting tasks/agenda Message-ID: Hi all. I've set up a simple page that will allow us to track what we've discussed from week to week: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OLPC/Tasks It's crude, but effective. I'll be using this to drive the meetings. --g From jg at laptop.org Fri Sep 5 13:39:07 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 09:39:07 -0400 Subject: Reminder: Fedora OLPC meeting at 1pm Eastern US time today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1220621947.6347.36.camel@jg-vaio> I'm a big believer in agendas: Status. Schedule. Testing. Recruiting. F9 vs. F10 - decision point is certainly upon us very soon. Installation path(s). Wear leveling on removable flash media. Our use case is possibly significantly different than the occasional use case of liveCD's/liveUSB keys. What should we do? Getting from proof of concept to widespread availability.... Size disasters: did you know that even if you select a subset of languages, /usr/share/locale has LC_MESSAGE files for all languages, that adds up to 113 megabytes, even compressed! - Jim On Fri, 2008-09-05 at 08:42 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > That's 5pm UTC... and 7pm CET for those who are in Brno. :) > > --g > > On Fri, 15 Aug 2008, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > > > > On freenode, #fedora-olpc. In about an hour. > > > > --g > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Fedora-olpc-list mailing list > > Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-olpc-list mailing list > Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From katzj at redhat.com Fri Sep 5 14:35:01 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:35:01 -0400 Subject: An idiot installs Sugar on rawhide In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1220625301.25032.0.camel@aglarond.local> On Fri, 2008-09-05 at 06:09 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > 1. yum install sugar > > Installs 20 packages. Great. FWIW, you probably want 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' much like you'd want 'yum groupinstall kde-desktop' or 'yum groupinstall gnome-desktop' > === > > 2. sugar-emulator > > Breaks. Still not installing Xephyr. Hmm. File the broken dep; easy enough to add it Jeremy From jg at laptop.org Fri Sep 5 14:38:46 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:38:46 -0400 Subject: Current state of conventional file systems on Flash & Linux.... Message-ID: <1220625526.6347.53.camel@jg-vaio> I had a conversation with Dave Woodhouse this morning, that people should internalize. The wonderful demoing of running Fedora, Debian, Ubuntu on a SD card, without thought about where what is stored, is something likely to come back to bite us downstream as people use it as a serious support problem. There is real danger, particularly on commodity media, of wearing out the flash device. We need to give serious thought to where what gets stored, on what file system. The only wear leveling we can *count* on is on JFFS2 on our internal flash. And we can strongly encourage the use of particularly "good" vendors/models of flash. - Jim If you are running a conventional file system on a flash device, what's the right solution for wear leveling right now for conventional SD or USB. Prayer. . SD and USB stuff -- none of the things with the built-in translation layers -- have ever been observed to be reliable enough to contemplate using them. although hopefully the new set of SSD stuff for laptops will mean they have to improve. but you can't really know what's going on under the covers. yeah, I know I can't rely on the hardware. They might be doing some form of wear leveling; they might not the question is, do we have any wear leveling software layer? often, if the devices do, they'll do it within certain regions. Not really for wear leveling on a block device. We have stuff like FTL which lets use emulate a block device on top of real flash and that obviously does wear leveling, but we don't have anything which will deliberately spread writes around on a block device. That probably would want to live in the file system itself, rather than a block<->block mapping layer -- although I dare say you _could_ do it with some kind of DM plugin; it's probably something we should look at doing in btrfs. Btrfs has a 'wandering tree' setup, a bit like logfs. I'm planning to see if I can make it work on raw flash, too. Should be really good. ok, for now, you *really* want to be careful on what you put where you put what, and what kind of media you use if you put a conventional system, say, on SD, to get the best you can get on wear characteristics. yeah. I wouldn't want to bet the farm on SD or _anything_ which does internal stuff for you. I've never met one that I'd want to take home and meet my mother. Would be an interesting project to tweak block allocation schemes in traditional file systems to think about wear leveling and not defragmentation. That's what I thought; probably why our M$ friends are being so picky on which SD card they use. that and the speed of SD cards of course -- they don't want slow ones :) yup. Thanks for the insight; it is roughly what I thought, but as I don't track the area, I wanted to be up-to-date.... Nothing much has changed since we dropped the magic translation layer chip from the XO when we first started ah, but for our internal flash, we have jffs2. the trend of putting SSDs in laptops will have a decent effect in time, I hope, but it hasn't yet. Jffs2 doesn't scale much further. We need ubifs/logfs or maybe btrfs in future. The not-so-distant future, I hope. I'm allegedly going to be getting a shiny new translation layer (make flash look like disk) soon, which I'm supposed to make look like proper Linux code and merge upstream -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From dennis at ausil.us Fri Sep 5 14:52:22 2008 From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:52:22 -0500 Subject: An idiot installs Sugar on rawhide In-Reply-To: <1220625301.25032.0.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1220625301.25032.0.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <200809050952.22937.dennis@ausil.us> On Friday 05 September 2008 09:35:01 am Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Fri, 2008-09-05 at 06:09 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > 1. yum install sugar > > > > Installs 20 packages. Great. > > FWIW, you probably want 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' much like you'd > want 'yum groupinstall kde-desktop' or 'yum groupinstall gnome-desktop' > > > === > > > > 2. sugar-emulator > > > > Breaks. Still not installing Xephyr. Hmm. > > File the broken dep; easy enough to add it sugar-emulator really should be split off in a sub package with the dep added on the subpackage. that way it can be dropped off if so desired. its not needed to have sugar as a standalone desktop. just if you want to run it inside an existing desktop. Dennis -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From mpgritti at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 14:57:15 2008 From: mpgritti at gmail.com (Marco Pesenti Gritti) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 16:57:15 +0200 Subject: An idiot installs Sugar on rawhide In-Reply-To: <200809050952.22937.dennis@ausil.us> References: <1220625301.25032.0.camel@aglarond.local> <200809050952.22937.dennis@ausil.us> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Dennis Gilmore wrote: > On Friday 05 September 2008 09:35:01 am Jeremy Katz wrote: >> On Fri, 2008-09-05 at 06:09 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >> > 1. yum install sugar >> > >> > Installs 20 packages. Great. >> >> FWIW, you probably want 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' much like you'd >> want 'yum groupinstall kde-desktop' or 'yum groupinstall gnome-desktop' >> >> > === >> > >> > 2. sugar-emulator >> > >> > Breaks. Still not installing Xephyr. Hmm. >> >> File the broken dep; easy enough to add it > > sugar-emulator really should be split off in a sub package with the dep added > on the subpackage. that way it can be dropped off if so desired. its not > needed to have sugar as a standalone desktop. just if you want to run it > inside an existing desktop. I think it's already splitted off. Greg was unintentionally running some old rpms. Marco From gdk at redhat.com Fri Sep 5 15:01:52 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 11:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: An idiot installs Sugar on rawhide In-Reply-To: <1220625301.25032.0.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1220625301.25032.0.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: Disregard. I had a busted ks file. Now I have a good ks file from rawhide... but it doesn't seem to boot. :) --g On Fri, 5 Sep 2008, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Fri, 2008-09-05 at 06:09 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >> 1. yum install sugar >> >> Installs 20 packages. Great. > > FWIW, you probably want 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' much like you'd > want 'yum groupinstall kde-desktop' or 'yum groupinstall gnome-desktop' > >> === >> >> 2. sugar-emulator >> >> Breaks. Still not installing Xephyr. Hmm. > > File the broken dep; easy enough to add it > > Jeremy > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-olpc-list mailing list > Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list > From gdk at redhat.com Fri Sep 5 15:01:58 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 11:01:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reminder: Fedora OLPC meeting at 1pm Eastern US time today In-Reply-To: <1220621947.6347.36.camel@jg-vaio> References: <1220621947.6347.36.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Sep 2008, Jim Gettys wrote: Bearing in mind that we have an hour: > I'm a big believer in agendas: > > Status. Of which effort? > Schedule. Of what? > Testing. Of what? > Recruiting. I think this is a more general topic. > F9 vs. F10 - decision point is certainly upon us very soon. > Installation path(s). > Wear leveling on removable flash media. Our use case is > possibly significantly different than the occasional use case > of liveCD's/liveUSB keys. What should we do? > Getting from proof of concept to widespread availability.... > Size disasters: did you know that even if you select a subset of > languages, /usr/share/locale has LC_MESSAGE files for all > languages, that adds up to 113 megabytes, even compressed! These are all much more specific. I am a fan of calling out the specific, since they drive actions. --g From jg at laptop.org Fri Sep 5 15:22:50 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 11:22:50 -0400 Subject: Reminder: Fedora OLPC meeting at 1pm Eastern US time today In-Reply-To: References: <1220621947.6347.36.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: <1220628170.6347.71.camel@jg-vaio> On Fri, 2008-09-05 at 11:01 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > On Fri, 5 Sep 2008, Jim Gettys wrote: > > Bearing in mind that we have an hour: > > > I'm a big believer in agendas: > > > > Status. > > Of which effort? What people have been doing. > > > Schedule. > > Of what? > G1G1, and F10, and how they may interact; see below on F9 vs. F10 decision.... I'll try to get exact dates if I can.... http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9114103&intsrc=hm_list > > Testing. > > Of what? > > > Recruiting. > > I think this is a more general topic. You suggest discussing elsewhere/when, or what? > > > F9 vs. F10 - decision point is certainly upon us very soon. > > Installation path(s). > > Wear leveling on removable flash media. Our use case is > > possibly significantly different than the occasional use case > > of liveCD's/liveUSB keys. What should we do? > > Getting from proof of concept to widespread availability.... > > Size disasters: did you know that even if you select a subset of > > languages, /usr/share/locale has LC_MESSAGE files for all > > languages, that adds up to 113 megabytes, even compressed! > > These are all much more specific. I am a fan of calling out the specific, > since they drive actions. > > --g -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From jg at laptop.org Fri Sep 5 17:53:44 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 13:53:44 -0400 Subject: OLPC kernel patches not upstream yet... Message-ID: <1220637224.6347.118.camel@jg-vaio> Jeremy Katz asked the reasonable question of the feasibility of Fedora carrying patches in advance of kernel.org, for stuff destined to eventual inclusion. I quickly checked with Andres on the current state of what isn't upstream in kernel.org. There are two big items left (for this round changes; if we can really get to things like fixing USB resume, there are likely more such in the future...). o The device tree patch; the hold up here is that there are multiple implementations of this on Sparc, PPC, and now x86, and no current agreement among the guilty on which should become the "standard" version. Until/unless the kernel community can come to consensus, this seems something not reasonable for a fedora patch. Andres would like to hear from davem in particular on this topic. And we *might* get more insight week after next after the kernel summit. o the touchpad driver for our ALPS touchpad. We're finally likely to be able to come up with something reasonable now that the EC code problem has been found, that won't be full of so many one off hack work-arounds. As this is a separate driver for unique hardware, this seems like something that could go into Fedora without likely headaches, if someone wants to keep it synchronized. But I think the standard touchpad driver does at least "work". Note that this presumes we're still using at least a OLPC .config file going forward as we don't have VESA support for booting in our firmware (we use fbdev), so a generic x86 Fedora kernel won't boot. We also don't want/need to carry the over whelming ton of device drivers, mostly for hardware that can never be plugged in, just for space reasons. It would certainly be nice someday if a generic x86 kernel could boot (and a standard Fedora desktop spin); I'm not exactly sure what that would entail at this point, but for now, this seems like a more speculative question and beyond the initial time frame for G1G1. I'm personally also by far mos comfortable using a kernel that is as close as possible to what we've been testing for our 8.2.0 release at this date, for support reasons. Jeremy also noted a bit of version skew between the fedora and olpc rpm spec file that could/should be resolved; there were a couple of trivial config file changes that enables something build from the OLPC kernel to be used in a Fedora spin (the squashfs patch, which all distros carry but isn't in kernel.org, and one other item that I forget). Andres, Deepak, did I miss anything? - Jim -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From mpgritti at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 14:35:28 2008 From: mpgritti at gmail.com (Marco Pesenti Gritti) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 16:35:28 +0200 Subject: Sugar group? Message-ID: Hello, now that we started to package activities, should we create a Sugar group in rawhide? It would be nice to be able to just "yum groupinstall Sugar"... Marco From gdk at redhat.com Sat Sep 6 14:52:54 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 10:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sugar group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: > Hello, > > now that we started to package activities, should we create a Sugar > group in rawhide? > It would be nice to be able to just "yum groupinstall Sugar"... A big +1 to this. --g From katzj at redhat.com Sat Sep 6 20:09:29 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 16:09:29 -0400 Subject: Sugar group? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1220731769.25032.8.camel@aglarond.local> On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 16:35 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: > now that we started to package activities, should we create a Sugar > group in rawhide? > It would be nice to be able to just "yum groupinstall Sugar"... 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' works just like gnome-desktop, kde-desktop, etc. dgilmore (iirc) added the comps group just after F9 went out Jeremy From dennis at ausil.us Sat Sep 6 22:07:46 2008 From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 17:07:46 -0500 Subject: Sugar group? In-Reply-To: <1220731769.25032.8.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1220731769.25032.8.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <200809061707.53095.dennis@ausil.us> On Saturday 06 September 2008 03:09:29 pm Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 16:35 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: > > now that we started to package activities, should we create a Sugar > > group in rawhide? > > It would be nice to be able to just "yum groupinstall Sugar"... > > 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' works just like gnome-desktop, > kde-desktop, etc. > > dgilmore (iirc) added the comps group just after F9 went out i missed getting it in before F-9 was done. but was added soon after. We should add the activites to the group. Dennis -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From ivazqueznet at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 23:01:37 2008 From: ivazqueznet at gmail.com (Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 19:01:37 -0400 Subject: Sugar group? In-Reply-To: <200809061707.53095.dennis@ausil.us> References: <1220731769.25032.8.camel@aglarond.local> <200809061707.53095.dennis@ausil.us> Message-ID: <1220742097.17290.281.camel@ignacio.lan> On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 17:07 -0500, Dennis Gilmore wrote: > On Saturday 06 September 2008 03:09:29 pm Jeremy Katz wrote: > > dgilmore (iirc) added the comps group just after F9 went out > > i missed getting it in before F-9 was done. but was added soon after. We > should add the activites to the group. While certainly some core activities should be added, I'm not convinced that adding absolutely all of them is a good idea. -- Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams PLEASE don't CC me; I'm already subscribed -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From dennis at ausil.us Sun Sep 7 03:04:14 2008 From: dennis at ausil.us (Dennis Gilmore) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 22:04:14 -0500 Subject: Sugar group? In-Reply-To: <1220742097.17290.281.camel@ignacio.lan> References: <200809061707.53095.dennis@ausil.us> <1220742097.17290.281.camel@ignacio.lan> Message-ID: <200809062204.24349.dennis@ausil.us> On Saturday 06 September 2008 06:01:37 pm Ignacio Vazquez-Abrams wrote: > On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 17:07 -0500, Dennis Gilmore wrote: > > On Saturday 06 September 2008 03:09:29 pm Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > dgilmore (iirc) added the comps group just after F9 went out > > > > i missed getting it in before F-9 was done. but was added soon after. > > We should add the activites to the group. > > While certainly some core activities should be added, I'm not convinced > that adding absolutely all of them is a good idea. adding all is a good idea. making them mandatory is not. Dennis -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. URL: From mpgritti at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 08:57:42 2008 From: mpgritti at gmail.com (Marco Pesenti Gritti) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:57:42 +0200 Subject: Sugar group? In-Reply-To: <200809061707.53095.dennis@ausil.us> References: <1220731769.25032.8.camel@aglarond.local> <200809061707.53095.dennis@ausil.us> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Dennis Gilmore wrote: > On Saturday 06 September 2008 03:09:29 pm Jeremy Katz wrote: >> On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 16:35 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: >> > now that we started to package activities, should we create a Sugar >> > group in rawhide? >> > It would be nice to be able to just "yum groupinstall Sugar"... >> >> 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' works just like gnome-desktop, >> kde-desktop, etc. >> >> dgilmore (iirc) added the comps group just after F9 went out > > i missed getting it in before F-9 was done. but was added soon after. Ah cool. Any reason it doesn't appear in "yum grouplist"? > We > should add the activites to the group. How do I do that? :) Marco From martin.langhoff at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 10:13:12 2008 From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:13:12 +1200 Subject: Fedora/OLPC weekly meeting tasks/agenda In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46a038f90809070313u309e1ae4gd1bbdd00103792c1@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 1:18 AM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > Hi all. I've set up a simple page that will allow us to track what we've > discussed from week to week: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OLPC/Tasks > > It's crude, but effective. I'll be using this to drive the meetings. One of these days you'll have to add the XS there, somewhere ;-) For example - an interesting task would be to figure out what's the minimal stuff I need to add to the standard XS installer CD (now based on F9, and *much* more vanilla than the XO build) so that it installs on an XO graced with an external HD. Does F9 currently install on an XO with an external HD? cheers, m -- martin.langhoff at gmail.com martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff From gdk at redhat.com Sun Sep 7 10:29:14 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 06:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora/OLPC weekly meeting tasks/agenda In-Reply-To: <46a038f90809070313u309e1ae4gd1bbdd00103792c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <46a038f90809070313u309e1ae4gd1bbdd00103792c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Sep 2008, Martin Langhoff wrote: > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 1:18 AM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >> Hi all. I've set up a simple page that will allow us to track what we've >> discussed from week to week: >> >> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OLPC/Tasks >> >> It's crude, but effective. I'll be using this to drive the meetings. > > One of these days you'll have to add the XS there, somewhere ;-) How about today? > For example - an interesting task would be to figure out what's the > minimal stuff I need to add to the standard XS installer CD (now based > on F9, and *much* more vanilla than the XO build) so that it installs on > an XO graced with an external HD. > > Does F9 currently install on an XO with an external HD? I believe that this is essentially the same use case as booting from USB stick, which we can of course do. --g From gdk at redhat.com Sun Sep 7 13:20:59 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 09:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Notes from Friday's meeting Message-ID: Sorry for being a bit late presenting these notes. I also apologize for the format -- I will be basically managing the task list and keeping notes there. The URL for the latest task list, as a reminder: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OLPC/Tasks === Task Name Owner Priority Target Date Status/Notes Figuring out how to create small localized spins SebastianDziallas, gettys 1 Update on 9/12 How can we make small images by cutting out unnecessary language info, and make particular builds that are customized for particular languages? Sebastian and Jim continue to work on this. Recommending SD hardware for Fedora JeremyKatz 1 Update on 9/12 Microsoft has already done a lot of working figuring out which SD card will work best with their OS; we should leverage that work to figure out what SD we should be offering to G1G1 users as the Fedora add-on. pyxcom/xulrunner issues JeremyKatz / ChrisAillon 1 Update on 9/12 In order to get the Browse activity to work properly natively to Fedora, we need to resolve the xulrunner fork in OLPC repos -- ChristopherAillon is trying to get those changes upstream, but is still on vacation. Packaging Sugar activities GregDekoenigsberg 1 Weekly update We need to closely track to the packages listed on the [roadmap] with the package requests that are tracked on the [wishlist page]. Python performance issues between F7 and F9 MarcoPesentiGritti 1 Update on 9/5 Python in F9 is much slower, making Sugar performance painful -- gregdek will try to put the Sugar folks in touch with the Python experts in Fedora. Installation path JimGettys 1 Update on 9/12 What's involved in installation onto internal NAND? What's involved to be able to use olpc-update? What needs to be done to ensure wear levelling? Jim Gettys will lead a discussion on-list. Bug tracker JimGettys 1 Update on 9/12 How do we track various work items that are non-obvious? JimGettys will lead a discussion on-list. --g From katzj at redhat.com Mon Sep 8 00:50:38 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:50:38 -0400 Subject: Fedora/OLPC weekly meeting tasks/agenda In-Reply-To: <46a038f90809070313u309e1ae4gd1bbdd00103792c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <46a038f90809070313u309e1ae4gd1bbdd00103792c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1220835038.25032.29.camel@aglarond.local> On Sun, 2008-09-07 at 22:13 +1200, Martin Langhoff wrote: > Does F9 currently install on an XO with an external HD? The kernel won't boot on an XO right now. But I'm working on that Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Mon Sep 8 00:53:41 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:53:41 -0400 Subject: Sugar group? In-Reply-To: References: <1220731769.25032.8.camel@aglarond.local> <200809061707.53095.dennis@ausil.us> Message-ID: <1220835221.25032.31.camel@aglarond.local> On Sun, 2008-09-07 at 10:57 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Dennis Gilmore wrote: > > On Saturday 06 September 2008 03:09:29 pm Jeremy Katz wrote: > >> On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 16:35 +0200, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: > >> > now that we started to package activities, should we create a Sugar > >> > group in rawhide? > >> > It would be nice to be able to just "yum groupinstall Sugar"... > >> > >> 'yum groupinstall sugar-desktop' works just like gnome-desktop, > >> kde-desktop, etc. > >> > >> dgilmore (iirc) added the comps group just after F9 went out > > > > i missed getting it in before F-9 was done. but was added soon after. > > Ah cool. Any reason it doesn't appear in "yum grouplist"? Shows up for me. > > We > > should add the activites to the group. > > How do I do that? :) http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/CompsXml But the first thing needed to add them is getting more activities packaged, reviewed and in the repositories... Jeremy From martin.langhoff at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 01:05:11 2008 From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:05:11 +1200 Subject: Fedora/OLPC weekly meeting tasks/agenda In-Reply-To: <1220835038.25032.29.camel@aglarond.local> References: <46a038f90809070313u309e1ae4gd1bbdd00103792c1@mail.gmail.com> <1220835038.25032.29.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <46a038f90809071805g188c8cddu2ac67f7436bdf3dc@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 12:50 PM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Sun, 2008-09-07 at 22:13 +1200, Martin Langhoff wrote: >> Does F9 currently install on an XO with an external HD? > > The kernel won't boot on an XO right now. But I'm working on that Thanks for the hint. As soon as it does, then very small schools can start running the XS build on the XO hw, which is a long-requested feature. It mainly needs to be able to install on a USB drive (of the spinning platters kind ;-) ), boot from there, do networking. Install-to-NAND and boot-from-NAND is nice (and can give us a very resilient "OS on NAND, data on HD" setup) but not required at the moment. cheers, m -- martin.langhoff at gmail.com martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff From katzj at redhat.com Mon Sep 8 01:45:44 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 21:45:44 -0400 Subject: OLPC kernel patches not upstream yet... In-Reply-To: <1220637224.6347.118.camel@jg-vaio> References: <1220637224.6347.118.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: <1220838344.25032.70.camel@aglarond.local> On Fri, 2008-09-05 at 13:53 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: > o The device tree patch; the hold up here is that there are multiple > implementations of this on Sparc, PPC, and now x86, and no current > agreement among the guilty on which should become the "standard" > version. Until/unless the kernel community can come to consensus, this > seems something not reasonable for a fedora patch. Andres would like to > hear from davem in particular on this topic. And we *might* get more > insight week after next after the kernel summit. Which is used for what in userspace? Of course, there's nothing that would really prevent us from carrying the patch -- it is at least relatively self-contained, if ugly. Would have to see what davej thinks when he's back from SF > o the touchpad driver for our ALPS touchpad. We're finally likely to be > able to come up with something reasonable now that the EC code problem > has been found, that won't be full of so many one off hack work-arounds. > As this is a separate driver for unique hardware, this seems like > something that could go into Fedora without likely headaches, if someone > wants to keep it synchronized. But I think the standard touchpad driver > does at least "work". I suspect the standard touchpad driver should work, but this also seems like something which should be pretty easy to upstream in -next :) > Note that this presumes we're still using at least a OLPC .config file > going forward as we don't have VESA support for booting in our firmware > (we use fbdev), so a generic x86 Fedora kernel won't boot. Actually, a standard Fedora kernel config boots fine as long as you're not using an initrd. Something goes wrong as soon as I throw an initrd into the mix, though. Digging through and trying different config options to try to discern where the problem lies > We also > don't want/need to carry the over whelming ton of device drivers, mostly > for hardware that can never be plugged in, just for space reasons. That depends entirely on your target. Please stop projecting that your needs and desires are those of everyone. > It > would certainly be nice someday if a generic x86 kernel could boot (and > a standard Fedora desktop spin); I'm not exactly sure what that would > entail at this point, but for now, this seems like a more speculative > question and beyond the initial time frame for G1G1. It actually seems pretty close from what I was doing on Friday. Too bad there's not git-bisect for kernel config options as that would make things quite a bit faster :-) > I'm personally > also by far mos comfortable using a kernel that is as close as possible > to what we've been testing for our 8.2.0 release at this date, for > support reasons. And from a Fedora point of view, that's not something which is at all comfortable -- it's a kernel rev back, it will need an entirely different set of security fix requirements, etc. > Jeremy also noted a bit of version skew between the fedora and olpc rpm > spec file that could/should be resolved; there were a couple of trivial > config file changes that enables something build from the OLPC kernel to > be used in a Fedora spin (the squashfs patch, which all distros carry > but isn't in kernel.org, and one other item that I forget). None of the device-mapper stuff is enabled in the OLPC kernel config, I suspect due to over-aggressive attempts at space pruning. But that's required for running live images since we use dm-snapshot to provide the semblance of writable area off of read-only media. And instead of calling new-kernel-pkg and getting the benefits therein, things are called by hand. This leads to mkinitrd not being run and so there's no initrd created for live images. Jeremy From jg at laptop.org Mon Sep 8 02:15:14 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 22:15:14 -0400 Subject: OLPC kernel patches not upstream yet... In-Reply-To: <1220838344.25032.70.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1220637224.6347.118.camel@jg-vaio> <1220838344.25032.70.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <1220840114.7581.94.camel@jg-vaio> On Sun, 2008-09-07 at 21:45 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > We also > > don't want/need to carry the over whelming ton of device drivers, mostly > > for hardware that can never be plugged in, just for space reasons. > > That depends entirely on your target. Please stop projecting that your > needs and desires are those of everyone. Heh. You are used to big hard disks...... Or at least a CD, where you are allowed to fill it and have other places to store files. Would that flash were free, or at least 4 times cheaper. I'm mostly concerned about the size of /lib/modules/xxx/ It's 38 megabytes compressed .gz, without pruning, on my conventional laptop. Much finer grained packaging of the kernel is what's actually in order; I just think that isn't likely to happen quickly enough. We certainly did lots of this for the iPAQ in Familiar, where we had a total of 16 or 32 meg of flash for *everything*. > > > It > > would certainly be nice someday if a generic x86 kernel could boot (and > > a standard Fedora desktop spin); I'm not exactly sure what that would > > entail at this point, but for now, this seems like a more speculative > > question and beyond the initial time frame for G1G1. > > It actually seems pretty close from what I was doing on Friday. Too bad > there's not git-bisect for kernel config options as that would make > things quite a bit faster :-) > > > I'm personally > > also by far mos comfortable using a kernel that is as close as possible > > to what we've been testing for our 8.2.0 release at this date, for > > support reasons. > > And from a Fedora point of view, that's not something which is at all > comfortable -- it's a kernel rev back, it will need an entirely > different set of security fix requirements, etc. I believe strongly for this initial F10 G1G1 release we should go with a kernel as close as possible to what we've been testing for OLPC's 8.2.0 release rather than the Fedora F10 kernel. This can/should be revisited once there is some time and a full Fedora release cycle to test it on significant numbers of rawhide users. The problem is that at this date, starting late, with no significant number of users, the stock fedora kernel won't have enough soak time, even if we could magically make all patches appear in rawhide tomorrow. Nor do we have the time and hackers and test machines running a stock Fedora kernel to chase any bugs right now on top of the release we're getting out the door. *This* is the issue. Testing and mitigating risk. For F11, sure.... The equation will be very different, given another 6 months, and a chance at a testing base of significant size. > > Jeremy also noted a bit of version skew between the fedora and olpc rpm > > spec file that could/should be resolved; there were a couple of trivial > > config file changes that enables something build from the OLPC kernel to > > be used in a Fedora spin (the squashfs patch, which all distros carry > > but isn't in kernel.org, and one other item that I forget). > > None of the device-mapper stuff is enabled in the OLPC kernel config, I > suspect due to over-aggressive attempts at space pruning. But that's > required for running live images since we use dm-snapshot to provide the > semblance of writable area off of read-only media. > > And instead of calling new-kernel-pkg and getting the benefits therein, > things are called by hand. This leads to mkinitrd not being run and so > there's no initrd created for live images. I'm sure from the sound of it Andres would be happy to see an updated spec file he can use in our 8.2.1 release... - Jim -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From katzj at redhat.com Mon Sep 8 14:21:24 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 10:21:24 -0400 Subject: OLPC kernel patches not upstream yet... In-Reply-To: <1220840114.7581.94.camel@jg-vaio> References: <1220637224.6347.118.camel@jg-vaio> <1220838344.25032.70.camel@aglarond.local> <1220840114.7581.94.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: <1220883684.5554.14.camel@aglarond.local> On Sun, 2008-09-07 at 22:15 -0400, Jim Gettys wrote: > On Sun, 2008-09-07 at 21:45 -0400, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > > We also > > > don't want/need to carry the over whelming ton of device drivers, mostly > > > for hardware that can never be plugged in, just for space reasons. > > > > That depends entirely on your target. Please stop projecting that your > > needs and desires are those of everyone. > > Heh. You are used to big hard disks...... Or at least a CD, where you > are allowed to fill it and have other places to store files. > > Would that flash were free, or at least 4 times cheaper. That's just my point, though. You have decided that the only thing that makes sense for Fedora on the XO is via the internal jffs2. I'm less convinced that that is the path which makes the most sense > > > It > > > would certainly be nice someday if a generic x86 kernel could boot (and > > > a standard Fedora desktop spin); I'm not exactly sure what that would > > > entail at this point, but for now, this seems like a more speculative > > > question and beyond the initial time frame for G1G1. > > > > It actually seems pretty close from what I was doing on Friday. Too bad > > there's not git-bisect for kernel config options as that would make > > things quite a bit faster :-) > > > > > I'm personally > > > also by far mos comfortable using a kernel that is as close as possible > > > to what we've been testing for our 8.2.0 release at this date, for > > > support reasons. > > > > And from a Fedora point of view, that's not something which is at all > > comfortable -- it's a kernel rev back, it will need an entirely > > different set of security fix requirements, etc. > > I believe strongly for this initial F10 G1G1 release we should go with a > kernel as close as possible to what we've been testing for OLPC's 8.2.0 > release rather than the Fedora F10 kernel. > > This can/should be revisited once there is some time and a full Fedora > release cycle to test it on significant numbers of rawhide users. > > The problem is that at this date, starting late, with no significant > number of users, the stock fedora kernel won't have enough soak time, > even if we could magically make all patches appear in rawhide tomorrow. > Nor do we have the time and hackers and test machines running a stock > Fedora kernel to chase any bugs right now on top of the release we're > getting out the door. > > *This* is the issue. Testing and mitigating risk. For F11, sure.... > The equation will be very different, given another 6 months, and a > chance at a testing base of significant size. There's an equivalent set of risks on the other side of the coin with using the Fedora userspace with a completely different kernel than what's being used for the rest of the testing, integratation, etc. This *is* important and it does tickle all kinds of "odd" bugs based on past experience. And it's exactly the sort of thing that we've finally gotten rid of with Xen with the very explicit statement of _not_ allowing it in something called Fedora in the future. And the need for being able to follow the security updates is very real > > > Jeremy also noted a bit of version skew between the fedora and olpc rpm > > > spec file that could/should be resolved; there were a couple of trivial > > > config file changes that enables something build from the OLPC kernel to > > > be used in a Fedora spin (the squashfs patch, which all distros carry > > > but isn't in kernel.org, and one other item that I forget). > > > > None of the device-mapper stuff is enabled in the OLPC kernel config, I > > suspect due to over-aggressive attempts at space pruning. But that's > > required for running live images since we use dm-snapshot to provide the > > semblance of writable area off of read-only media. > > > > And instead of calling new-kernel-pkg and getting the benefits therein, > > things are called by hand. This leads to mkinitrd not being run and so > > there's no initrd created for live images. > > I'm sure from the sound of it Andres would be happy to see an updated > spec file he can use in our 8.2.1 release... ... the best way to get you an updated spec file is to switch so that your kernel is being built out of the same sources, with the same spec, etc and maybe just with a different config rather than off doing its own thing Jeremy From sebastian at when.com Mon Sep 8 18:03:59 2008 From: sebastian at when.com (Sebastian Dziallas) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 20:03:59 +0200 Subject: Progress on a Fedora Spin... Message-ID: <48C5690F.90706@when.com> ...progress wherever you look... We've done quite a big step forward in minimizing the size of a Fedora Spin - thanks Jeremy! I've been creating spins over the day lately and with the latest commit on livecd-tools, I'm more than happy that the --instLangs argument for kickstart files does now work. What does this mean? Well, we're able to reduce the size of the final image heavily, so that we'll end up with more than 100 MB less of /usr/share stuff on the spin. Where are we now? I've been rebasing the spin to Rawhide (F10), which is still not that stable now, but I think this will change more soon than late. The latest image I built has a size of 323 MB (!) - excluding claws-mail due to some dependency issues in Rawhide right now. Apparently, there's still some cups and other stuff in there, so we might still get lower... I'm pretty excited and would really like to thank Jeremy for his work :) --Sebastian From dsaxena at laptop.org Mon Sep 8 18:17:14 2008 From: dsaxena at laptop.org (Deepak Saxena) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:17:14 +0000 Subject: OLPC kernel patches not upstream yet... In-Reply-To: <1220637224.6347.118.camel@jg-vaio> References: <1220637224.6347.118.camel@jg-vaio> Message-ID: <20080908181714.GA17585@plexity.net> Sorry for the delayed response, have been slowly catching up to email after vacation. > Jeremy also noted a bit of version skew between the fedora and olpc rpm > spec file that could/should be resolved; there were a couple of trivial > config file changes that enables something build from the OLPC kernel to > be used in a Fedora spin (the squashfs patch, which all distros carry > but isn't in kernel.org, and one other item that I forget). I would love to see us move to the new spec file format as it seems much easier to understand and maintain. > Andres, Deepak, did I miss anything? I just did a git-diff v2.6.25.15..olpc-2.6/testing and the following minor things also stand out: - SD timeout patch. I think there's a cleaner way to do this with quirks that Pierre introduced, I need to to revisit this. - Some minor changes to the AT keyboard driver that should be pulled into a separate file. - We have a small scattering of #ifdef CONFIG_OLPC needs to be cleaned up. - The Libertas driver is in my opinion somewhat of a mess. We've got bits from upstream, bits from our 2.6.22 tree that never got pushed upstream. All of this needs to be consolidated and pushed upstream. Looking ahead at the 9.x releases, we will be throwing LogFS and YAFFS2 into the kernel to do some analysis on alternatives to JFFS2 and we will possibly use one of those as we move forward. Jeremy, how do we deal with the fact that OLPC is using Git for development while Fedora/RHEL are based on CVS + quilt patches? Simplest solution is to just generate one big patch for the OLPC kernel that we drop on top of the Fedora kernel but that looses a lot of history. Generating one patch per commit is doable if we cleanup our history so that we don't have complex merges. Do you happen to be in Portland next week for Kernel Summit/Plumber's Conf? Andres will be here and it'd be great if we could meet f2f to talk about this. Thanks, ~Deepak From katzj at redhat.com Mon Sep 8 20:08:11 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:08:11 -0400 Subject: OLPC kernel patches not upstream yet... In-Reply-To: <20080908181714.GA17585@plexity.net> References: <1220637224.6347.118.camel@jg-vaio> <20080908181714.GA17585@plexity.net> Message-ID: <1220904491.5554.71.camel@aglarond.local> On Mon, 2008-09-08 at 18:17 +0000, Deepak Saxena wrote: > Sorry for the delayed response, have been slowly catching up to email > after vacation. No worries -- vacations are good :) > > Jeremy also noted a bit of version skew between the fedora and olpc rpm > > spec file that could/should be resolved; there were a couple of trivial > > config file changes that enables something build from the OLPC kernel to > > be used in a Fedora spin (the squashfs patch, which all distros carry > > but isn't in kernel.org, and one other item that I forget). > > I would love to see us move to the new spec file format as it seems > much easier to understand and maintain. That was the idea, so glad that people think so > > Andres, Deepak, did I miss anything? > > I just did a git-diff v2.6.25.15..olpc-2.6/testing and the following > minor things also stand out: > > - SD timeout patch. I think there's a cleaner way to do this with > quirks that Pierre introduced, I need to to revisit this. Yeah, this looked to me like it would be fine with what's currently upstream in 2.6.27-git > - Some minor changes to the AT keyboard driver that should be pulled > into a separate file. This one I had big question marks by as to what the intent was > - The Libertas driver is in my opinion somewhat of a mess. We've got > bits from upstream, bits from our 2.6.22 tree that never got pushed > upstream. All of this needs to be consolidated and pushed upstream. I thought that upstream here had been cleaned up and was actually acting sane now. If not, then some hammering might be in order. > Looking ahead at the 9.x releases, we will be throwing LogFS and YAFFS2 > into the kernel to do some analysis on alternatives to JFFS2 and we will > possibly use one of those as we move forward. And there's also now ubifs upstream > Jeremy, how do we deal with the fact that OLPC is using Git for development > while Fedora/RHEL are based on CVS + quilt patches? Simplest solution is > to just generate one big patch for the OLPC kernel that we drop on top of > the Fedora kernel but that looses a lot of history. Generating one patch > per commit is doable if we cleanup our history so that we don't have > complex merges. Either an OLPC patch or trying to keep the OLPC patches each maintained as topic branches that then got brought together should work. Roland's utrace stuff is currently maintained in a git repo and just has the big patch drop effect. But the goal is of course continuing to decrease the size until it's not that relevant to worry about. While there will always be things queued for -next, the given release kernel should hopefully be able to be "good enough" and then n+1 is just better. > Do you happen to be in Portland next week for Kernel Summit/Plumber's Conf? > Andres will be here and it'd be great if we could meet f2f to talk about this. Sadly, I won't. Jeremy From mpgritti at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 21:38:02 2008 From: mpgritti at gmail.com (Marco Pesenti Gritti) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:38:02 +0200 Subject: Sugar group? In-Reply-To: <1220835221.25032.31.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1220731769.25032.8.camel@aglarond.local> <200809061707.53095.dennis@ausil.us> <1220835221.25032.31.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 2:53 AM, Jeremy Katz wrote: >> How do I do that? :) > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/CompsXml > > But the first thing needed to add them is getting more activities > packaged, reviewed and in the repositories... Yeah. If no one beats me at it, I'll start by reviewing the ones you already submitted. Thanks! Marco From jg at laptop.org Tue Sep 9 00:20:44 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 20:20:44 -0400 Subject: Progress on a Fedora Spin... In-Reply-To: <48C5690F.90706@when.com> References: <48C5690F.90706@when.com> Message-ID: <1220919644.11557.6.camel@jg-vaio> At this point, I think we need to say good enough on size, and move onto something we can start testing on SD, so we can see what's broken that needs work. At this point, I think we need to say good enough on size; it's more important to figure out where we need to work. Thanks for all the great work, Sebastian and Jeremy.... - Jim On Mon, 2008-09-08 at 20:03 +0200, Sebastian Dziallas wrote: > ...progress wherever you look... > > We've done quite a big step forward in minimizing the size of a Fedora > Spin - thanks Jeremy! I've been creating spins over the day lately and > with the latest commit on livecd-tools, I'm more than happy that the > --instLangs argument for kickstart files does now work. > > What does this mean? Well, we're able to reduce the size of the final > image heavily, so that we'll end up with more than 100 MB less of > /usr/share stuff on the spin. > > Where are we now? I've been rebasing the spin to Rawhide (F10), which is > still not that stable now, but I think this will change more soon than > late. The latest image I built has a size of 323 MB (!) - excluding > claws-mail due to some dependency issues in Rawhide right now. > Apparently, there's still some cups and other stuff in there, so we > might still get lower... > > I'm pretty excited and would really like to thank Jeremy for his work :) > > --Sebastian -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From martin.langhoff at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 05:00:19 2008 From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 17:00:19 +1200 Subject: A few F9 upgrade things I need help with... Message-ID: <46a038f90809082200t45781958o646fd810c3aab630@mail.gmail.com> As part of the XS upgrade, I've ended up caught with a number of F9 oddities -- none of them a complete blocker, but definitely rought edges... - Cannot include beecrypt in Pungi/Revisor build - this is probably a bug worthy of filing in BZ but needs a bit of diagnosys. http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8363 - Anaconda conflicts with xs-config - Filed as BZ 461550 http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8366 - Anaconda crash during install with USB-disk-based ks.cfg BZ 461453 - this probably affects all USB-disk based installs. - Anaconda: Install from USB disk: only ISO picked up BZ 461548 - Anaconda: Install from USB disk: Awkward to provide a ks.cfg BZ 461549 All of these are - I think - worthwhile to whack for the ease-of-install experience with Fedora and the XS... cheers, m -- martin.langhoff at gmail.com martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff From martin.langhoff at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 09:42:55 2008 From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:42:55 +1200 Subject: Creating a spin - any mechanisms around $product-release, $product-release-notes, $product-logos packages...? Message-ID: <46a038f90809100242o4e65059enbc0f71d65412032e@mail.gmail.com> I'm finishing off the F9 port of the OLPC School Server, and as part of that I'm preparing xs-release, xs-release-notes and xs-logos packages. As far as I can see, these are pulled because they provide system-release and system-logos. fedora-release-notes is pulled in by fedora-release, and perhaps by something depending on indexhtml (httpd?). My key question is: will anything in the Fedora machinery (anaconda, rpm, yum) be looking for a magic "product" name, and then try to use it to request $product-release? (I ask to be safe - recently got very confused by anaconda not upgrading Fedora-based spins due to mismatching 'product' between .discinfo and /etc/redhat-release . Knowing these special rules is important ;-) and I have not found yet any document laying out the subtle traps awaiting anyone doing a Fedora derivative as I am doing...) cheers, m -- martin.langhoff at gmail.com martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff From katzj at redhat.com Wed Sep 10 14:48:53 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:48:53 -0400 Subject: Creating a spin - any mechanisms around $product-release, $product-release-notes, $product-logos packages...? In-Reply-To: <46a038f90809100242o4e65059enbc0f71d65412032e@mail.gmail.com> References: <46a038f90809100242o4e65059enbc0f71d65412032e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1221058133.18710.91.camel@aglarond.local> On Wed, 2008-09-10 at 21:42 +1200, Martin Langhoff wrote: > My key question is: will anything in the Fedora machinery (anaconda, > rpm, yum) be looking for a magic "product" name, and then try to use > it to request $product-release? Nothing that I know of Jeremy From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 11 10:52:33 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 06:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora on XO: testing! Message-ID: If you have an XO and want to get Fedora running on it, this is the time to try it. :) Jeremy has an image working, and has laid down the gauntlet: http://katzj.livejournal.com/438184.html We have a testable image here: http://katzj.fedorapeople.org/olpc/olpc-gnome.iso And we have a tracking bug to file bugs against: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=FedoraOnXO We also need a more formalized test plan. Not super-formal, but a basic set of tasks that should "just work". Actually, I wonder: how much of the typical testing for Fedora could simply be replicated for the XO? I will ask the Fedora test folks. --g From jg at laptop.org Thu Sep 11 14:53:37 2008 From: jg at laptop.org (Jim Gettys) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:53:37 -0400 Subject: Fedora on XO: testing! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1221144817.7087.28.camel@jg-vaio> Cool.... Bravo to Jeremy!!!! ALSO NOTE: please use the SanDisk Extreme III SD cards; some SD cards in your drawer are probably trash, and I'd like us not to spend lots of people's time debugging bad SD cards causing Linux to fail in strange ways. We don't have the time right now to chase such bugs at the OLPC end. M$ has done extensive testing of SD cards, and that's their recommendation. I may be able to send a few out to people feeling poor, but the fastest way is for you to order them quickly yourselves. They cost a bit more than the trash, but they are very fast (good for hackers ;-)). There are some additional things we should test/understand.... Ram space is going to be an issue: the default spins don't think too much about it, short of things like xfce, which are probably not going to keep quite a few G1G1 folks happy. Lots of such buyers are much more "gnome-like" in their experience (to use a poor joke). So where does are RAM go, and what can/should we do about it in some (future) spin that might be more aimed at that market that might be more approachable? Sebastian and I have been working on a much smaller spin with a more modest inventory that might someday be appropriate for installing into the internal NAND of that characteristic with a small enough footprint to fit and likely much lower typical RAM usage (some apps are known pigs); but its contents is a guess rather than based on data, and spending time on it right now won't get coverage of other items we and others may need. So I think we need to spend the next month or two strictly trying the "stock" spins, to see what problems we really have. Then any small spin can be made on something other than hand wave, and we'll know what to expect in terms of people who do naive things. Let's play stupid for a while and see what breaks ;-). The other place we'll need to think is font sizes, and what happens in B/W mode: stock themes almost certainly become unusable in reflective mode, which is sad if you are geek who wants to go to the beach... I'm not sure there is anything we can do about this in the short term, but we should figure out what our best defaults are, which we can do something about quickly. As far as other testing, suspend/resume is a big one, on which the XO should shine. We're faster than most anything else out there, and in principle, it should "just work". We tested our hardware up to 50,000 SR cycles. I'd really like to nail this one item, even if much else suffers, if we can. - Jim On Thu, 2008-09-11 at 06:52 -0400, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > If you have an XO and want to get Fedora running on it, this is the time > to try it. :) > > Jeremy has an image working, and has laid down the gauntlet: > http://katzj.livejournal.com/438184.html > > We have a testable image here: > http://katzj.fedorapeople.org/olpc/olpc-gnome.iso > > And we have a tracking bug to file bugs against: > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=FedoraOnXO > > We also need a more formalized test plan. Not super-formal, but a basic > set of tasks that should "just work". Actually, I wonder: how much of the > typical testing for Fedora could simply be replicated for the XO? I will > ask the Fedora test folks. > > --g > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-olpc-list mailing list > Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list -- Jim Gettys One Laptop Per Child From martin.langhoff at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 23:13:35 2008 From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:13:35 +1200 Subject: Couple things I'm looking for help with... (revisor, GPG migration...) Message-ID: <46a038f90809111613g56db0aabh52eea48d27467b5b@mail.gmail.com> Making a well tuned install menu. Not too complex, some minor patching of revisor and a shell script involved. You'll want good connectivity as testing involves building the CD :-) http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8360 Helping me figure out how to make a spin post-GPG-keys-change-drama - see http://marc.info/?l=fedora-devel-list&m=122109127113298&w=2 cheers, m -- martin.langhoff at gmail.com martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff From rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org Fri Sep 12 01:58:53 2008 From: rodrigopadula at projetofedora.org (Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:58:53 -0300 Subject: Fedora on XO: testing! In-Reply-To: References: <48C90E61.4010007@projetofedora.org> Message-ID: <48C9CCDD.1070509@projetofedora.org> Greg Dekoenigsberg escreveu: > > On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira wrote: > >> Greg Dekoenigsberg escreveu: >>> >>> If you have an XO and want to get Fedora running on it, this is the time >>> to try it. :) >>> >>> Jeremy has an image working, and has laid down the gauntlet: >>> http://katzj.livejournal.com/438184.html >>> >>> We have a testable image here: >>> http://katzj.fedorapeople.org/olpc/olpc-gnome.iso >>> >>> And we have a tracking bug to file bugs against: >>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=FedoraOnXO >>> >>> We also need a more formalized test plan. Not super-formal, but a basic >>> set of tasks that should "just work". Actually, I wonder: how much of >>> the typical testing for Fedora could simply be replicated for the XO? I >>> will ask the Fedora test folks. >> >> Can i test on XO B4 machines ?? Works ? > > Doubtful. :( > I know I still owe you a proposal; I'm discussing it with Sugar folks. > Are you willing to lead a team of test folks in Brazil? > > --g > Yes, i would like to lead the tests and to organize a Brazilian Sugar Community! By now, i'm presenting many lectures in many Brazilian states spreading the OLPC and Sugar. Thanks -- Rodrigo Padula de Oliveira M.Sc. Student - COPPE/UFRJ Fedora Community Manager - Latin America http://www.proyectofedora.org From martin.langhoff at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 08:01:52 2008 From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:01:52 +1200 Subject: Couple things I'm looking for help with... (revisor, GPG migration...) In-Reply-To: <48CA1E68.2080207@kanarip.com> References: <46a038f90809111613g56db0aabh52eea48d27467b5b@mail.gmail.com> <48CA1E68.2080207@kanarip.com> Message-ID: <46a038f90809120101v68840a5byddc03f822370a260@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 7:46 PM, Jeroen van Meeuwen wrote: > the --isolinux-cfg helps here, doesn't it? Using ks=hd:LABEL=foo:ks.cfg in > one of the menu items should work like Chris and Jeremy mentioned... Yes it definitely does, thanks! We need a tiny patch to add a 2nd ks file - you'll see in the ticket I'd like to have one with "interactive" in it, and one without. >> Helping me figure out how to make a spin post-GPG-keys-change-drama - see >> http://marc.info/?l=fedora-devel-list&m=122109127113298&w=2 > I think I answered this; > http://marc.info/?l=fedora-devel-list&m=122114550831324&w=2 Indeed - thanks! Hadn't seen it when I posted :-) > All you really really need to do is make sure you include the new > fedora-release package for the new GPG keys to be on the installed system > and avoid needing to go through the transition of keys. Cool. > As far as the > installation is occurred, you'll hit BZ #998 (the installer doesn't verify > keys). >From what I read there, that'll just log warnings in install.log right? Good on Jeremy to reopen a <1000 bug. A while ago I managed to fix bug #33 (or around there) in Moodle. cheers, m -- martin.langhoff at gmail.com martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff From pbrobinson at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 16:16:03 2008 From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:16:03 +0100 Subject: OLPC vs Fedora packages Message-ID: <5256d0b0809160916w17d37f70idf9a57657ad33d3a@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, Is there a list or bugzilla tracking bug somewhere that tracks the divergent OLPC packages. I know there have been various lists in the past posted to p.f.o and mailing lists but I'm trying to work out for my own sanity (and so as not to double up on effort) whether there's a central spot where this is tracked. In particular for bugs where packages pull in extra not wanted dependencies such as perl. I know there have been various bugs filed in the past but are they tracked through an umbrella bug? Peter From katzj at redhat.com Tue Sep 16 16:25:59 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:25:59 -0400 Subject: OLPC vs Fedora packages In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0809160916w17d37f70idf9a57657ad33d3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <5256d0b0809160916w17d37f70idf9a57657ad33d3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1221582359.462.4.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 17:16 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote: > Is there a list or bugzilla tracking bug somewhere that tracks the > divergent OLPC packages. I know there have been various lists in the > past posted to p.f.o and mailing lists but I'm trying to work out for > my own sanity (and so as not to double up on effort) whether there's a > central spot where this is tracked. In particular for bugs where > packages pull in extra not wanted dependencies such as perl. I know > there have been various bugs filed in the past but are they tracked > through an umbrella bug? There's not one that I know of. If you want to start one based on the lists which have been sent out in the past, that'd be a great help. Jeremy From pbrobinson at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 16:40:11 2008 From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:40:11 +0100 Subject: OLPC vs Fedora packages In-Reply-To: <1221582359.462.4.camel@aglarond.local> References: <5256d0b0809160916w17d37f70idf9a57657ad33d3a@mail.gmail.com> <1221582359.462.4.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <5256d0b0809160940o67fc7911p4a3aa15809aabe5f@mail.gmail.com> >> Is there a list or bugzilla tracking bug somewhere that tracks the >> divergent OLPC packages. I know there have been various lists in the >> past posted to p.f.o and mailing lists but I'm trying to work out for >> my own sanity (and so as not to double up on effort) whether there's a >> central spot where this is tracked. In particular for bugs where >> packages pull in extra not wanted dependencies such as perl. I know >> there have been various bugs filed in the past but are they tracked >> through an umbrella bug? > > There's not one that I know of. If you want to start one based on the > lists which have been sent out in the past, that'd be a great help. I can start one, do you have a link off hand to one of the lists? I can remember seeing lists but I have no idea where I did. Peter From katzj at redhat.com Tue Sep 16 17:18:06 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 13:18:06 -0400 Subject: OLPC vs Fedora packages In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0809160940o67fc7911p4a3aa15809aabe5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <5256d0b0809160916w17d37f70idf9a57657ad33d3a@mail.gmail.com> <1221582359.462.4.camel@aglarond.local> <5256d0b0809160940o67fc7911p4a3aa15809aabe5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1221585486.13612.0.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 17:40 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote: > >> I know > >> there have been various bugs filed in the past but are they tracked > >> through an umbrella bug? > > > > There's not one that I know of. If you want to start one based on the > > lists which have been sent out in the past, that'd be a great help. > > I can start one, do you have a link off hand to one of the lists? I > can remember seeing lists but I have no idea where I did. First message of the thread is https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-olpc-list/2008-August/msg00036.html Jeremy From michael at laptop.org Tue Sep 16 20:20:06 2008 From: michael at laptop.org (Michael Stone) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 16:20:06 -0400 Subject: OLPC vs Fedora packages In-Reply-To: <1221585486.13612.0.camel@aglarond.local> References: <5256d0b0809160916w17d37f70idf9a57657ad33d3a@mail.gmail.com> <1221582359.462.4.camel@aglarond.local> <5256d0b0809160940o67fc7911p4a3aa15809aabe5f@mail.gmail.com> <1221585486.13612.0.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <20080916202003.GA18785@didacte.laptop.org> The most up-to-date information that I'm aware of is recorded at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Distro_Version_Migration_Nastiness Regards, Michael From pbrobinson at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 14:12:11 2008 From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:12:11 +0100 Subject: OLPC vs Fedora packages In-Reply-To: <1221582359.462.4.camel@aglarond.local> References: <5256d0b0809160916w17d37f70idf9a57657ad33d3a@mail.gmail.com> <1221582359.462.4.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <5256d0b0809170712m7e6f3859p9ea5b5b05a61a8a0@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 5:25 PM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 17:16 +0100, Peter Robinson wrote: >> Is there a list or bugzilla tracking bug somewhere that tracks the >> divergent OLPC packages. I know there have been various lists in the >> past posted to p.f.o and mailing lists but I'm trying to work out for >> my own sanity (and so as not to double up on effort) whether there's a >> central spot where this is tracked. In particular for bugs where >> packages pull in extra not wanted dependencies such as perl. I know >> there have been various bugs filed in the past but are they tracked >> through an umbrella bug? > > There's not one that I know of. If you want to start one based on the > lists which have been sent out in the past, that'd be a great help. Is it OK to add bugs to the XO tracking bug RHBZ461806 even though it blocks the F10Target, or should we have another one for ongoing bugs? Peter From pbrobinson at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 16:35:02 2008 From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:35:02 +0100 Subject: OLPC vs Fedora packages In-Reply-To: <5256d0b0809170712m7e6f3859p9ea5b5b05a61a8a0@mail.gmail.com> References: <5256d0b0809160916w17d37f70idf9a57657ad33d3a@mail.gmail.com> <1221582359.462.4.camel@aglarond.local> <5256d0b0809170712m7e6f3859p9ea5b5b05a61a8a0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5256d0b0809170935k724ebe08y247974dbdc904271@mail.gmail.com> >>> Is there a list or bugzilla tracking bug somewhere that tracks the >>> divergent OLPC packages. I know there have been various lists in the >>> past posted to p.f.o and mailing lists but I'm trying to work out for >>> my own sanity (and so as not to double up on effort) whether there's a >>> central spot where this is tracked. In particular for bugs where >>> packages pull in extra not wanted dependencies such as perl. I know >>> there have been various bugs filed in the past but are they tracked >>> through an umbrella bug? >> >> There's not one that I know of. If you want to start one based on the >> lists which have been sent out in the past, that'd be a great help. > > Is it OK to add bugs to the XO tracking bug RHBZ461806 even though it > blocks the F10Target, or should we have another one for ongoing bugs? Jeremy has kindly created me a Delta tracking bug https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=462625 I've added some of the RH dependent bugs into it (including closed bugs for tracking). I've also added some notes and updates to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/RobinNorwood/OlpcBranch Will update the rest as I get time. Peter From subhodip at fedoraproject.org Thu Sep 18 15:11:31 2008 From: subhodip at fedoraproject.org (subhodip biswas) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:41:31 +0530 Subject: Arabeyes font packages Message-ID: <539333cb0809180811n108fadbeh6433be88cc07187e@mail.gmail.com> Arabayes-core-fonts contain fonts which are split into Thabit and Mothanna fonts as per suggestion . These fonts are packaged against this ticket http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8221 the review requests are : https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=461139 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=462711 Anybody willing to review them ? -- Regards Subhodip Biswas GPG key : FAEA34AB Server : pgp.mit.edu http://subhodipbiswas.wordpress.com http:/www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/SubhodipBiswas From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 18 17:00:22 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meeting going on NOW Message-ID: Sorry for no earlier reminder, folks. Discussing various Fedora / OLPC efforts. Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OLPC/Tasks See you if you can make it. --g From martin.langhoff at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 23:58:45 2008 From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 11:58:45 +1200 Subject: Meeting going on NOW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46a038f90809181658m24970f31u58d2bab087ccec08@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 5:00 AM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > See you if you can make it. Looks like I'll forever miss these 5am meetings :-) As I've mentioned before, there is one thing I'd be keen on... some help building up a F9+XO-compatible-but-generic-kernel . With that, XS-on-XO becomes possible as the XS build is a custom F9. :-) cheers, m -- martin.langhoff at gmail.com martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff From katzj at redhat.com Fri Sep 19 02:18:40 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 22:18:40 -0400 Subject: Meeting going on NOW In-Reply-To: <46a038f90809181658m24970f31u58d2bab087ccec08@mail.gmail.com> References: <46a038f90809181658m24970f31u58d2bab087ccec08@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1221790720.15361.151.camel@aglarond.local> On Fri, 2008-09-19 at 11:58 +1200, Martin Langhoff wrote: > As I've mentioned before, there is one thing I'd be keen on... some > help building up a F9+XO-compatible-but-generic-kernel . With that, > XS-on-XO becomes possible as the XS build is a custom F9. :-) I've actually been looking into this and was making some progress earlier in the week before getting derailed by other things. Will hopefully get back to it tomorrow and actually get something useful in the near future Jeremy From martin.langhoff at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 06:34:22 2008 From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 18:34:22 +1200 Subject: httpd - minor (but annoying) bug #204067 Message-ID: <46a038f90809182334l2a92376av7854d63ea0ced922@mail.gmail.com> It's trivial, and I've posted a new config file for it that fixes the issue. https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=204067 if an httpd with this tiny fix percolates into updates, I won't have to carry a custom httpd rpm... :-) nudge nudge, wink wink... m ps: I could add a sneaky rm in a %post but deleting other packages' conffiles is... ugh! -- martin.langhoff at gmail.com martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff From simon at schampijer.de Fri Sep 19 07:28:00 2008 From: simon at schampijer.de (Simon Schampijer) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:28:00 +0200 Subject: Meeting going on NOW In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48D35480.5060409@schampijer.de> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > Sorry for no earlier reminder, folks. Discussing various Fedora / OLPC > efforts. Agenda: > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/OLPC/Tasks > > See you if you can make it. > > --g sorry missed that :/ Regarding the activities we are making good progress as jeremy has reported i guess. I try to keep the list here updated. https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/WishList#Activities The killer activity would be browse now (you can download/install new activities then as well that way). I have cleaned up the browse repo and the remaining issue is now enabling of pyxpcom in xulrunner #436581. Was there an update on this in the meeting? Thanks, Simon From katzj at redhat.com Fri Sep 19 13:15:05 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 09:15:05 -0400 Subject: Meeting going on NOW In-Reply-To: <48D35480.5060409@schampijer.de> References: <48D35480.5060409@schampijer.de> Message-ID: <1221830105.28601.0.camel@aglarond.local> On Fri, 2008-09-19 at 09:28 +0200, Simon Schampijer wrote: > The killer activity would be browse now (you can download/install new > activities then as well that way). I have cleaned up the browse repo and > the remaining issue is now enabling of pyxpcom in xulrunner #436581. Was > there an update on this in the meeting? We should be getting a xulrunner package with a pyxpcom subpackage soon Jeremy From gdk at redhat.com Fri Sep 19 14:55:56 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Meeting minutes from yesterday Message-ID: In brief: * Localized spins. Making this a lesser priority because Fedora will be on its own dedicated SD card, and space is no longer as much of a concern. * SD Card recommendation: it will be the SanDisk Extreme III. * Resolving pyxcom / xulrunner issues in Fedora. Should be in rawhide shortly (caillon allegedly built on 9/16, we will be able to test soon.) * Activities. gregdek will get a count of (have / still need / etc.) Jeremy continues to build these at a rapid pace. * Python bloat. Tomeu will send me a note regarding best practices on cutting bloat out of python/pygtk apps, and gdk will send around to various Python gurus. * installation path -- priority 2, since we're focusing on sd card, not onboard install * bug tracker -- we have a great tracking bug for Fedora on XO: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/showdependencytree.cgi?id=461806&hide_resolved=1 See you next week. --g From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 19 21:02:03 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 02:32:03 +0530 Subject: Arabeyes font packages In-Reply-To: <539333cb0809180811n108fadbeh6433be88cc07187e@mail.gmail.com> References: <539333cb0809180811n108fadbeh6433be88cc07187e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48D4134B.2070100@fedoraproject.org> subhodip biswas wrote: > Arabayes-core-fonts contain fonts which are split into Thabit and > Mothanna fonts as per suggestion . These fonts are packaged against > this ticket > http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8221 > > the review requests are : https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=461139 > > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=462711 > > > Anybody willing to review them ? Subscribe to fedora-fonts list and ask. You are more likely to get a quick review there. Rahul From martin.langhoff at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 04:42:33 2008 From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:42:33 +1200 Subject: squid - minor (but annoying) bug #463129 Message-ID: <46a038f90809212142i5d42c118p7d161d69d47671ab@mail.gmail.com> Similar to the httpd bug I mentioned before -- trivial fix, and I've included a patch. If a fix percolates in F9, it saves me from having to shipping a custom squid for what amounts to... 10 characters :-) Squid init script test the wrong configfile https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=463129 Similar bug with apache2 - updated with the correct conffile after an initial misfire https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=204067 nudge nudge, wink wink... m -- martin.langhoff at gmail.com martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff From katzj at redhat.com Mon Sep 22 20:48:42 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 16:48:42 -0400 Subject: Fedora kernel on XO progress -- initrd is loaded in the wrong by place by OpenFirmware Message-ID: <1222116522.23198.23.camel@aglarond.local> After going down a few more dead ends than I would have preferred, I've figured out the root cause of the problems booting the Fedora kernel on the XO. The base problem is that OFW always loads the initrd at 0x800000 which, while it used to be okay, isn't a safe assumption with current kernels. With the Fedora kernel images for example, this ends up being smack in the middle of the .bss and thus things explode. The correct thing to do with an initrd (according to Documentation/boot/x86/i386/boot.txt and manual verification with hpa) is to first check the value of initrd_addr_max (0x22c) in the header of the bzImage. initrd_addr_max is defined as the maximum safe address for a byte of the initrd, so you want to load the ramdisk at initrd_addr_max-len(ramdisk)+1. This then will make OFW's kernel loading match that of all the other bootloaders used on x86. It might also be worth checking some of the other newer things (especially the kernel_alignment field), but I've got no indication of them causing any problems at all right now with anything that anyone is actually doing in practice. Unfortunately, I have nowhere near the forth-fu to whip up a patch to fix the ramdisk load location. But I'm pretty sure that with such a patch, a standard Fedora kernel should be able to boot just fine on the XO hardware which would be a really big win for being able to run any of the variety of Fedora live images. Mitch -- any chance you could take a look or give me pointers in the correct direction? Thanks, Jeremy From martin.langhoff at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 23:04:09 2008 From: martin.langhoff at gmail.com (Martin Langhoff) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:04:09 +1200 Subject: Fedora kernel on XO progress -- initrd is loaded in the wrong by place by OpenFirmware In-Reply-To: <1222116522.23198.23.camel@aglarond.local> References: <1222116522.23198.23.camel@aglarond.local> Message-ID: <46a038f90809221604p6f999ab2q7adf4edd886eab91@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > After going down a few more dead ends than I would have preferred, great sleuthing! > ... But I'm pretty sure that with such a > patch, a standard Fedora kernel should be able to boot just fine on the > XO hardware which would be a really big win for being able to run any of > the variety of Fedora live images. ... even F9 kernels? cheers, m -- martin.langhoff at gmail.com martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect - ask interesting questions - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff From katzj at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 01:40:34 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:40:34 -0400 Subject: Fedora kernel on XO progress -- initrd is loaded in the wrong by place by OpenFirmware In-Reply-To: <48D80CED.4090400@laptop.org> References: <1222116522.23198.23.camel@aglarond.local> <48D80CED.4090400@laptop.org> Message-ID: <1222134034.23198.45.camel@aglarond.local> On Mon, 2008-09-22 at 11:23 -1000, Mitch Bradley wrote: > Here is the patch, assuming that the ramdisk memory is not subtracted > from the available memory size: [snip] > I tested it working with a stock OLPC build. > > You can put that patch in olpc.fth . I'll incorporate it into the next > OFW release. Awesome, and I've tested it with a Fedora kernel and it works there also. Thanks for the quick turnaround and the ability to just stick the patch into the olpc.fth file is awesome. For a "screenshot"... Fedora release 9.91 (Rawhide) Kernel 2.6.27-0.329.rc6.git2.fc10.i686 on an i586 (/dev/ttyS0) localhost.localdomain login: root Last login: Tue Sep 23 01:20:19 on ttyS0 [root at localhost ~]# dmesg |grep OLPC OLPC board with OpenFirmware CL1 Q2E17 Q2E OLPC board revision preC200000 (EC=52) PCI: Using configuration type OLPC Now to fixing the new things which popped up and are more firmly in the realm of kernel bugs... :-) Jeremy From katzj at redhat.com Tue Sep 23 01:59:34 2008 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:59:34 -0400 Subject: Fedora kernel on XO progress -- initrd is loaded in the wrong by place by OpenFirmware In-Reply-To: <46a038f90809221604p6f999ab2q7adf4edd886eab91@mail.gmail.com> References: <1222116522.23198.23.camel@aglarond.local> <46a038f90809221604p6f999ab2q7adf4edd886eab91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1222135174.23198.51.camel@aglarond.local> On Tue, 2008-09-23 at 11:04 +1200, Martin Langhoff wrote: > On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 8:48 AM, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > ... But I'm pretty sure that with such a > > patch, a standard Fedora kernel should be able to boot just fine on the > > XO hardware which would be a really big win for being able to run any of > > the variety of Fedora live images. > > .. even F9 kernels? There's still some config work to be done as well as another bug or three to shake out. But we now get into the kernel and get oopsen, so it's just a Simple Matter of Follow and Fix the Oops (tm). Which is a far simpler process Jeremy From pbrobinson at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 14:28:22 2008 From: pbrobinson at gmail.com (Peter Robinson) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:28:22 +0100 Subject: Package splits between Fedora mainline and OLPC Message-ID: <5256d0b0809250728t66f2839fp5fc3194af2160d9d@mail.gmail.com> Hi All, Reviewing the mail that was sent back in August over the last couple of weeks I've made a number of updates to Robin's wiki page and filed a number of Fedora bugs or added the bugs to the wiki where needed as there's quite a bit of cross over in what I want to achieve for the Fedora Mini SIG. https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-olpc-list/2008-August/msg00036.html Now what I'd like to be able to do is work out what the status of the current fork list is. Of the packages listed in the posting above alot of them still have a OLPC cvs branch but I suspect that will hang around even when its merged back into the mainline. So is someone able to regenerate the split report so we can see where we are? Even if they don't have time to deal with the merging back in I can probably compare specs and file tickets linked against the tracking bug to get them merged if the spec files are essentially the same. Cheers, Peter From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 25 14:45:38 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Reminder: Fedora OLPC meeting Message-ID: Today at 1pm Eastern US time. #fedora-olpc on freenode. See you there. :) --g From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 25 16:56:45 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:56:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Live CD for Sugar Message-ID: I have: * A livecd for Fedora 10 devel (rawhide) that allows a Sugar 0.82 boot option via GDM. We're missing activites, but as those make their way into rawhide for F10, we will close these gaps quickly. * A kickstart file that can be used by any Fedora user to generate such an image trivially. So. Where shall we host them? Somewhere in Fedora-land, or somewhere in Sugar-land? --g From sverma at sfsu.edu Thu Sep 25 17:08:02 2008 From: sverma at sfsu.edu (Sameer Verma) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:08:02 -0500 Subject: Fedora Live CD for Sugar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5fb387c70809251008u4512b1d8oc087c9c420013399@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > I have: > > * A livecd for Fedora 10 devel (rawhide) that allows a Sugar 0.82 boot > option via GDM. We're missing activites, but as those make their way into > rawhide for F10, we will close these gaps quickly. > > * A kickstart file that can be used by any Fedora user to generate such an > image trivially. > > So. Where shall we host them? Somewhere in Fedora-land, or somewhere in > Sugar-land? > Why not both, and torrent it up on http://linuxtracker.org/ ? Sameer -- Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Information Systems San Francisco State University San Francisco CA 94132 USA http://verma.sfsu.edu/ http://opensource.sfsu.edu/ From bkearney at redhat.com Thu Sep 25 17:22:05 2008 From: bkearney at redhat.com (Bryan Kearney) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:22:05 -0400 Subject: Fedora Live CD for Sugar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DBC8BD.5030501@redhat.com> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > I have: > > * A livecd for Fedora 10 devel (rawhide) that allows a Sugar 0.82 boot > option via GDM. We're missing activites, but as those make their way > into rawhide for F10, we will close these gaps quickly. > > * A kickstart file that can be used by any Fedora user to generate such > an image trivially. > > So. Where shall we host them? Somewhere in Fedora-land, or somewhere > in Sugar-land? Can I see the ks to see if it will play well in the appliance tooling? -- bk From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 25 17:24:28 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Live CD for Sugar In-Reply-To: <48DBC8BD.5030501@redhat.com> References: <48DBC8BD.5030501@redhat.com> Message-ID: Sure. Here it is. At some point I'll upload it into git somewhere. === %include livecd-fedora-base-desktop.ks %packages @games @graphical-internet @graphics @sound-and-video @gnome-desktop nss-mdns NetworkManager-vpnc NetworkManager-openvpn # we don't include @office so that we don't get OOo. but some nice bits abiword gnumeric #planner #inkscape # Sugar! @sugar-desktop -fedora-logos generic-logos @albanian-support @arabic-support @assamese-support @basque-support @belarusian-support @bengali-support @brazilian-support @british-support @bulgarian-support @catalan-support @chinese-support @czech-support @danish-support @dutch-support @estonian-support @finnish-support @french-support @galician-support @georgian-support @german-support @greek-support @gujarati-support @hebrew-support @hindi-support @hungarian-support @indonesian-support @italian-support @japanese-support @kannada-support @korean-support @latvian-support @lithuanian-support @macedonian-support @malayalam-support @marathi-support @nepali-support @norwegian-support @oriya-support @persian-support @polish-support @portuguese-support @punjabi-support @romanian-support @russian-support @serbian-support @slovak-support @slovenian-support @spanish-support @swedish-support @tamil-support @telugu-support @thai-support @turkish-support @ukrainian-support @vietnamese-support @welsh-support # The following locales have less than 50% translation coverage for the core # GNOME stack, as found at http://l10n.gnome.org/languages/ #@afrikaans-support #@armenian-support #@bhutanese-support #@bosnian-support #@breton-support #@croatian-support #@esperanto-support #@ethiopic-support #@faeroese-support #@filipino-support #@gaelic-support #@icelandic-support #@inuktitut-support #@irish-support #@khmer-support #@lao-support #@low-saxon-support #@malay-support #@maori-support #@mongolian-support #@northern-sami-support #@northern-sotho-support #@samoan-support #@sinhala-support #@somali-support #@southern-ndebele-support #@southern-sotho-support #@swati-support #@tagalog-support #@tibetan-support #@tonga-support #@tsonga-support #@tswana-support #@urdu-support #@venda-support #@walloon-support #@xhosa-support #@zulu-support # These fonts are only used in the commented-out locales above -lklug-fonts -abyssinica-fonts -jomolhari-fonts # avoid weird case where we pull in more festival stuff than we need festival festvox-slt-arctic-hts # dictionaries are big -aspell-* -hunspell-* -man-pages-* -scim-tables-* -wqy-bitmap-fonts -dejavu-fonts-experimental # more fun with space saving -scim-lang-chinese -scim-python* scim-chewing scim-pinyin # save some space -gnome-user-docs -gimp-help -evolution-help -autofs -nss_db -vino -dasher -evince-dvi -evince-djvu # not needed for gnome -acpid # temporary - drags in many deps -ekiga -tomboy -f-spot %end %post cat >> /etc/rc.d/init.d/fedora-live << EOF # disable screensaver locking gconftool-2 --direct --config-source=xml:readwrite:/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults -s -t bool /apps/gnome-screensaver/lock_enabled false >/dev/null # set up timed auto-login for after 60 seconds cat >> /etc/gdm/custom.conf << FOE [daemon] TimedLoginEnable=true TimedLogin=fedora TimedLoginDelay=60 FOE EOF %end ===== On Thu, 25 Sep 2008, Bryan Kearney wrote: > Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >> >> I have: >> >> * A livecd for Fedora 10 devel (rawhide) that allows a Sugar 0.82 boot >> option via GDM. We're missing activites, but as those make their way into >> rawhide for F10, we will close these gaps quickly. >> >> * A kickstart file that can be used by any Fedora user to generate such an >> image trivially. >> >> So. Where shall we host them? Somewhere in Fedora-land, or somewhere in >> Sugar-land? > > > Can I see the ks to see if it will play well in the appliance tooling? > > -- bk > From mpgritti at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 18:54:56 2008 From: mpgritti at gmail.com (Marco Pesenti Gritti) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:54:56 +0200 Subject: Fedora Live CD for Sugar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 6:56 PM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > I have: > > * A livecd for Fedora 10 devel (rawhide) that allows a Sugar 0.82 boot > option via GDM. We're missing activites, but as those make their way into > rawhide for F10, we will close these gaps quickly. > > * A kickstart file that can be used by any Fedora user to generate such an > image trivially. > > So. Where shall we host them? Somewhere in Fedora-land, or somewhere in > Sugar-land? Can we put the kickstart somewhere in git? (on fedorahosted I guess). I don't have a strong feeling about where the image itself should be hosted. Maybe on sugarlabs.org for now and the final F10 livecd in both lands... Marco From gdk at redhat.com Thu Sep 25 20:36:22 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Live CD for Sugar In-Reply-To: <393f20980809251316r73b7ff6cxe053e396594f0d67@mail.gmail.com> References: <393f20980809251316r73b7ff6cxe053e396594f0d67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Sep 2008, David Farning wrote: > On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Greg Dekoenigsberg > wrote: > > I have: > > * A livecd for Fedora 10 devel (rawhide) that allows a Sugar > 0.82 boot option via GDM. ?We're missing activites, but as > those make their way into rawhide for F10, we will close > these gaps quickly. > > * A kickstart file that can be used by any Fedora user to > generate such an image trivially. > > > Once we have a live CD is it hard to generate a a live usb with > persistence.? I was able to get a ubuntu live usb going with two > partitions one for storing the cd and another for dynamatic storage. I was inarticulate. What I have is, in fact, a Live image, capable of being written to a USB key with persistence enabled. Fedora build tools basically make it trivial to build and maintain such images with default tools. --g From walter.bender at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 20:04:33 2008 From: walter.bender at gmail.com (Walter Bender) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:04:33 -0400 Subject: [IAEP] Fedora Live CD for Sugar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Fabulous... -walter From sundaram at fedoraproject.org Fri Sep 26 00:39:48 2008 From: sundaram at fedoraproject.org (Rahul Sundaram) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 06:09:48 +0530 Subject: Fedora Live CD for Sugar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DC2F54.5020601@fedoraproject.org> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > I have: > > * A livecd for Fedora 10 devel (rawhide) that allows a Sugar 0.82 boot > option via GDM. We're missing activites, but as those make their way > into rawhide for F10, we will close these gaps quickly. > > * A kickstart file that can be used by any Fedora user to generate such > an image trivially. > > So. Where shall we host them? Somewhere in Fedora-land, or somewhere > in Sugar-land? fedorahosted.org/spin-kickstarts is the spin sig git repository if you want to host the ks files there. Rahul From mpgritti at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 08:07:00 2008 From: mpgritti at gmail.com (Marco Pesenti Gritti) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:07:00 +0200 Subject: Fedora Live CD for Sugar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 8:54 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti wrote: > I don't have a strong feeling about where the image itself should be > hosted. Maybe on sugarlabs.org for now and the final F10 livecd in > both lands... To elaborate a bit on my thinking... While we are developing the images we host them "unofficially" at sugarlabs so that our testing team and people interested to try sugar out has an easy way to do it. When the images are ready, we can "officially" host them in Fedora land. We should aspire to become an official Fedora spin like KDE at some point :) Marco From mpgritti at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 08:07:30 2008 From: mpgritti at gmail.com (Marco Pesenti Gritti) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:07:30 +0200 Subject: Fedora Live CD for Sugar In-Reply-To: <48DC2F54.5020601@fedoraproject.org> References: <48DC2F54.5020601@fedoraproject.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 2:39 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote: > Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: >> >> I have: >> >> * A livecd for Fedora 10 devel (rawhide) that allows a Sugar 0.82 boot >> option via GDM. We're missing activites, but as those make their way into >> rawhide for F10, we will close these gaps quickly. >> >> * A kickstart file that can be used by any Fedora user to generate such an >> image trivially. >> >> So. Where shall we host them? Somewhere in Fedora-land, or somewhere in >> Sugar-land? > > fedorahosted.org/spin-kickstarts is the spin sig git repository if you want > to host the ks files there. Sounds good to me! Marco From gdk at redhat.com Fri Sep 26 21:01:39 2008 From: gdk at redhat.com (Greg Dekoenigsberg) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 17:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Work items: Fedora on XO testing plan Message-ID: So I've just concluded a meeting with James Laska to figure out the plan. Here's what we've got so far, with owners. Comments welcome. Note: we hope to have some of these knocked out by next Tuesday, and the remainder by next Friday. 1. (jlaska) We will identify a number of high-level testing tasks that teams will take on. Examples so far: camera support (does the new F10 webcam stuff work with the XO cam?), power management, wireless (weird drivers upstream?), display/xrandr (does turning the XO sideways do something crazy?). There will be others, and we will share them when we've got a first draft. 2. (jkatz?) We need bulletproof docs that allow our testers to easily put the latest images onto their SD cards. 3. (gdk) Figure out and communicate exactly what spin we're using. i.e. GNOME. :) 4. (jlaska) Identify the dates for testable release candidates, and sync those as best as possible to anticipated F10 snapshot releases. 5. (gdk) Build a team structure on the wiki that is time-based, so that testers can commit to a 4-hour block anytime during the week and join a team that will work with them. Also identify additional roles like triagers and leaders which will entail broader responsibility, and recruit specifically for those roles. 6. (gdk) Further qualify leads by other criteria: having an SD writer (duh), having a second computer (for transferring images and communicating on irc, etc.), understanding bugzilla, etc. 7. (jlaska) Identify and document workflow for Fedora-on-XO bugs (use tracking bugs? how to verify "closed rawhide" bugs? etc.) --g From echerlin at gmail.com Sat Sep 27 07:33:40 2008 From: echerlin at gmail.com (Edward Cherlin) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:33:40 -0700 Subject: Work items: Fedora on XO testing plan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm currently available as a tech writer. I don't know how long that will last. Let me know if somebody wants to see more samples than you can find on the Wiki. On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 2:01 PM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > So I've just concluded a meeting with James Laska to figure out the plan. > Here's what we've got so far, with owners. Comments welcome. > > Note: we hope to have some of these knocked out by next Tuesday, and the > remainder by next Friday. > > 1. (jlaska) We will identify a number of high-level testing tasks that teams > will take on. Examples so far: camera support (does the new F10 webcam > stuff work with the XO cam?), power management, wireless (weird drivers > upstream?), display/xrandr (does turning the XO sideways do something > crazy?). There will be others, and we will share them when we've got a > first draft. > > 2. (jkatz?) We need bulletproof docs that allow our testers to easily put > the latest images onto their SD cards. > > 3. (gdk) Figure out and communicate exactly what spin we're using. i.e. > GNOME. :) > > 4. (jlaska) Identify the dates for testable release candidates, and sync > those as best as possible to anticipated F10 snapshot releases. > > 5. (gdk) Build a team structure on the wiki that is time-based, so that > testers can commit to a 4-hour block anytime during the week and join a team > that will work with them. Also identify additional roles like triagers and > leaders which will entail broader responsibility, and recruit specifically > for those roles. > > 6. (gdk) Further qualify leads by other criteria: having an SD writer (duh), > having a second computer (for transferring images and communicating on irc, > etc.), understanding bugzilla, etc. > > 7. (jlaska) Identify and document workflow for Fedora-on-XO bugs (use > tracking bugs? how to verify "closed rawhide" bugs? etc.) > > --g > > _______________________________________________ > Fedora-olpc-list mailing list > Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list > -- Don't panic.--HHGTTG, Douglas Adams fivethirtyeight.com, 3bluedudes.com Obama still ahead in EC! http://www.obamapedia.org/ Join us! http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mokurai For the children From mpgritti at gmail.com Sun Sep 28 15:43:33 2008 From: mpgritti at gmail.com (Marco Pesenti Gritti) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 17:43:33 +0200 Subject: [IAEP] Fedora Live CD for Sugar In-Reply-To: <1222615549.48dfa1fdda851@imp.free.fr> References: <393f20980809251316r73b7ff6cxe053e396594f0d67@mail.gmail.com> <1222615549.48dfa1fdda851@imp.free.fr> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 5:25 PM, wrote: > Quoting "C. Scott Ananian" : > >> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 4:16 PM, David Farning wrote: >> > On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 11:56 AM, Greg Dekoenigsberg >> wrote: > >> > Once we have a live CD is it hard to generate a a live usb with >> > persistence. I was able to get a ubuntu live usb going with two partitions >> > one for storing the cd and another for dynamatic storage. >> > > > Maybe the following tutorial : > "USB Pendrive Linux install from Linux" > ( http://www.pendrivelinux.com/2007/05/16/usb-pendrivelinux-install-tutorial/ ) > gives some hints. > > From the tutorial : "Installation is simple and just requires copying the .img > to a USB device and then creating a live-rw partition if you wish to store your > changes." On a fedora system is just matter of: /usr/bin/livecd-iso-to-disk [--reset-mbr] [--noverify] [--overlay-size-mb ] And there is this for windows: https://fedorahosted.org/liveusb-creator Marco From karlie_robinson at webpath.net Mon Sep 29 12:37:33 2008 From: karlie_robinson at webpath.net (Karlie Robinson) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 08:37:33 -0400 Subject: Self Intro Message-ID: <48E0CC0D.7040602@webpath.net> Hello everyone. With a little nudge from Greg and some conversations with the Laptop.org team, I'm here. For those of you who don't know me, I'm a very unusual type of Fedora Ambassador and FLOSS advocate. I'm not a power user. I avoid a terminal window. The only code I can fudge my way through is HTML.... But I can talk Linux and Open Source for hours. [1,2] My role in the Fedora OLPC SIG will be directly tied to Fedora on SD. And know that you're in good hands as I'll put my best men on the task. [3] ~Karlie Robinson Rochester, NY, USA [1] http://on-disk.com/cms/index.php?wiki=RCSi [2] http://on-disk.com/cms/index.php?wiki=OLF_ResourceList [3] http://on-disk.com/cms/index.php?wiki=ohio_linux_fest_2007 From bkearney at redhat.com Mon Sep 29 17:15:07 2008 From: bkearney at redhat.com (Bryan Kearney) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 13:15:07 -0400 Subject: Fedora Live CD for Sugar In-Reply-To: References: <48DBC8BD.5030501@redhat.com> Message-ID: <48E10D1B.4060000@redhat.com> Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > Sure. Here it is. At some point I'll upload it into git somewhere. I built an image for this which can be run in en/kvm. To use it: 1) Download [1] 2) Uncompress it 3) run virt-image sugar-rawhide.xml This will default to 1024 megs of memory. If you would prefer to build it locally: 1) Download [2] 2) Install the appliance-tools rpm (in f9 and rawhide) 3) run appliance-creator -f qcow2 --vmem 1024 --name sugar-rawhide --config sugar-f10.ks -- bk [1] http://sugar.s3.amazonaws.com/sugar-rawhide.tgz [2] http://sugar.s3.amazonaws.com/sugar-f10.ks From tomeu at tomeuvizoso.net Mon Sep 29 20:18:42 2008 From: tomeu at tomeuvizoso.net (Tomeu Vizoso) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:18:42 +0200 Subject: python performance-related issues in Sugar (was Re: Meeting minutes from yesterday) Message-ID: <242851610809291318m262ea4fi3b6d7fd4f7675a4f@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Greg Dekoenigsberg wrote: > > * Python bloat. Tomeu will send me a note regarding best practices on > cutting bloat out of python/pygtk apps, and gdk will send around to various > Python gurus. Sorry to be so late. Some performance related issues in Sugar where Python plays a role: - Activity (and other processes) startup time: mostly due to import time, loading tons of modules that we never actually use but that get referenced by real dependencies. This means loading tons of data into memory (code, comments, etc) plus executing tons of module initialization code. Lazy loading would help here, but if I understood correctly, it's unsafe at least in python 2.5. - Memory usage: the same dependencies creep happen, python processes don't share python code, resulting in lots of duplication. We are using a python launcher hack that preloads some modules in a python interpreter and then forks every time a process is requested. This saves some startup time and makes python processes save a good chunk of memory, but introduces subtle bugs all across the dependencies because modules were initialized in an environment very different from where they execute later. So, the Sugar developers would like to know if any other usage of python in the desktop has found these issues and what the conclusions are. Could you please share your experiences? Thanks, Tomeu