XO Special interest group at Sugar Labs

Sat Sep 26 11:01:32 UTC 2009

This is getting _very_ complicated/confusing with references to unclear to me issues. 
would be better if in a different post you code your reasons for _not_ forming a SIG. eg what is the harm per se, not as oppose to something else. Then in another post what, OLPC, SL, others should be doing about the XO-1/Sugar installed base.
I thing that these will get your messages much better across.   
So for now I'll just "answer" some misunderstanding-derived questions.
No, I do not prefer meritocracy. (how did you come up with this?)
No, I think that "locals" are very capable but have other priorities.(I even said so originally)

Best

--- On Sat, 9/26/09, DancesWithCars <danceswithcars at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: DancesWithCars <danceswithcars at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: XO Special interest group at Sugar Labs
> To: "Yioryos Asprobounitis" <mavrothal at yahoo.com>
> Cc: fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com, "David Farning" <dfarning at sugarlabs.org>, "iaep" <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
> Date: Saturday, September 26, 2009, 3:53 AM
> more inline
> 
> and reviewing, highlighting/ commenting on the original
> posting/ thread below that...
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 24, 2009 at 9:22 AM, Yioryos Asprobounitis
> <mavrothal at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 9/24/09, DancesWithCars <danceswithcars at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: DancesWithCars <danceswithcars at gmail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: XO Special interest group at Sugar
> Labs
> >> To: "Yioryos Asprobounitis" <mavrothal at yahoo.com>
> >> Cc: fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com,
> "David Farning" <dfarning at sugarlabs.org>,
> "iaep" <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
> >> Date: Thursday, September 24, 2009, 6:45 AM
> >> I'm not sure about the hardware
> >> issues
> >> mentioned below, as new to some of these lists,
> >> but if there is an installed base of XO-1
> computers
> >> with special hardware like the touchpad
> >> with 2 extra areas that were never implemented,
> >> why not develop applications for those,
> >> even if the XO-1.5 and XO-2 plans don't
> >> include them?
> >>
> >> What are you going to tell the kids
> >> with XO-1s when the XO-1.5 come out?
> >> What is the consolation prize?
> >> Knowing more about it, and
> >> being further up the learning curve?
> >>
> 
> Note: Nothing mentioned on new hardware
> and have/ vs. have nots on that?...
> 
> >> Also, the battery issues will get worse,
> >> as the hardware gets older, so testing
> >> and determining when need new battery,
> >> as a computer without power isn't much
> >> fun.
> >>
> 
> Batteries, as my first laptop has problems
> years later with the battery (flashing red),
> and replacements not currently/ easily available,
> and a 5 yo Nikon CoolPix 4300 camera that the
> 2 Gig Compact Flash memory card is not available
> much anymore,  as it's too small size to be
> considered,
> (Salesman: 4 Gig+ is better, must be able to use that,
> Me: No, not really.
> Salesman: Faster speed better?
> Me: No, not supported, so why pay for that?
> Salesman/Manager: Not comparable,
>  so not a 1-to-1  swap replacement for cost/
> raincheck)
>  and stores want to force me
> to get a new camera instead of the supplies
> I went in for, i.e. snotty sales/ register people
> making others wait in line [i.e. look how difficult
> he is being making all the others in line wait,
> when small local brand memory stuff is only
> available at the counter...], and all...
> 
> But I rant on MicroCenter in the Washington DC
> area...  But it is an industry thing even here
> in supposedly 1st world where everyone
> is supposedly rich and should be donors
> only, not receipients (OLPC USA???)
> (but by comparison to  $50 USD/ year
> per capita annual income,
> though consider cost of living here...)
> 
> >> Repairing hardware gets more crucial
> >> as machines get older.
> >>
> 
> Try finding i386 PC-100 memory,
> or getting delivery on an XO touchpad
> without it being so late as to be useless,
>  being shorted on the order
> from XOExplosion.com and non responsive
> to a certified letter and phone doesn't work,
> and email rarely...
> 
> >> Being more inventive with what you have
> >> instead of this is the shiny new machine,
> >> so going deeper into the system,
> >> maybe programming instead of just
> >> using.  Or more time with the learning
> >> content.
> >>
> >> Even as a ebook reader, getting new
> >> content, creating new content,
> >> maybe more translating content?
> >>
> >> I still think flossmanuals.net
> >> needs indexing and other layout stuff,
> >> under the hood, or however parallel,
> >> LyX makes some assumptions,
> >> and does some of that but not
> >> the wiki and social stuff up top,
> >> so [La]TeX classes and styles might be
> >> a good contribution, finding
> >> objavi and booki source code,
> >> etc...
> >>
> >
> > These are all very valid points. However, is not clear
> to me if you imply that they should be prioritized over the
> updating of the os/sugar or not.
> 
> Getting something on a list of features/ requirements
> is probably the first step, then prioritizing, when we can
> a;; see what the whole list looks like, available
> resources (time, skill, man/woman/kid power, etc), ...
> 
> 
> > I hope not since some of these may even benefit from
> an updated OS (touchpad, battery, other hardware related
> patches) as opposed to an unsupported one (Fedora 9).
> 
> Fedora seems to be on a 6 month development
> cycle.  The OLPC/ SugarLabs split plus OLPC
> SW dev team cutbacks seems to have effected
> the published timeline(s) greatly...
> 
> So maybe determining the timeline would be a
>  good first step.   Suggesting an F-Odd
> release
> cycle?  Backporting anything critical, security
> wise, and keeping repos online for the full
> year+ XO/Sugar cycle, if not longer?
> 
> Usenet/ UUNet store and forward seems like an
> interesting technology to push updates
> into remote areas.
> 
> Can an XO/Sugar machine actually share files?
> Activity / kernel/ rpm / repo saved on local machine /
> SD/ USB and easily update the others when meshing/
> if approved by local neighbor(s)
>  vs w/o whole mesh entire reflash image??
> i.e. incrementals instead of full refresh?
> 
> Sugar has a large installed base on XO/
> Fedora, and seems like it's not a Special Interest
> (i.e. subgroup) but the largest part so far,
> and relegating it to junior status, is demeaning.
> 
> Development (most people here are probably
> developers? no?) is important, but serving
> the customer base instead of orphaning
> them is also important...
> 
> > On the other hand being a voluntary process is hard to
> tell to people "you do this instead of that". You can
> certainly try to convince them, and I think you do a good
> job on that :-)
> >
> I can voice my opinion, but others are free to disagree...
> 
> Usually what we call a democracy, but I'm not sure
> if you prefer a meritocracy (those who do the work
> get to determine how others live)??
> 
> >> The requirements for testing a new build
> >> is some extra XO-n hardware for testing,
> >> and a high speed connection, if giving
> >> new .isos builds out to the world,
> >> or access to some place that would,
> >> plus the time and knowledge to
> >> make the changes, find bugs,
> >> report them, etc.
> >
> > Again I'm not sure what this means. That is trivial?
> That a "beta" quality OS should be delivered to the
> students/deployments and let them debug it? Other?
> >
> Less impossible (topic was trivial), if supported.
> I didn't say a beta quality, but you (original poster)
> seem to want us to just be testers, so
> if you have to have an RT account,
> join a Gang (interpreted differently here when
> 6 surround me at MetroRail and want my stuff,
> i.e bike/ computer, etc), get flooded
> with list emails just to report a bug/ process issue
> (i.e. put a form on the Sugar interface and have it
> store and forward when connected?
> bottom up instead of top down,
> creating feedback all the way down from kids/ users)
> then the users of the software get to report
> stuff, and it reported multiply, then filter it out/
> condense symptoms/ merge into better reports,
> and prioritize by User counts?...
> 
> Filters can sort out if the poster is a minor,
> redact certain stuff, etc.  i.e. 30 kids reported
> a problem with Z.  Must be worth looking into.
> Local school admins not figuring it out, maybe
> they need some support on that?
> 
> 
> >>
> >> And if 'It's An Eduction Project"
> >> are we teaching self reliance
> >> and how to do builds, make your
> >> own constructionist style or
> >> whatever teaching paradigm fits
> >> the locals?  Or forcing dependence
> >> upon others?
> >
> > Again trying to read between the lines...
> 
> Not always good to do when I'm pissed
> about ClassActs and writing in response
> to that... ;-/
> 
> Or writing in the middle of the night
> with little sleep, but this thread is getting
> messy...
> 
> 
> > I'm sure that "locals" have their hands full trying to
> make the best of the available hardware/software, adapt it
> to their needs and build their own apps when needed.
> 
> So you don't think 'locals' are capable human beings??
> 
> That's the attitude I've gotten from OLPC...
> Not as much from a Red Hat visit.
> 
> With their//our own customs and traditions
> that seem to work for things We/they already encounter,
> until a little XO is introduced/ [or forced, in some
> cases,
> as some teachers/ admins  might not want it...]
> 
> Some organizations can't modify a kernel locally?
> Create operating systems/ applications?
> Translate English based dominance
> to local languages?
> 
> A Finland grad student started Linux,
> not the US.  And not M$.  But FSF and GNU
> and many others added to it...
> 
> 
> Even in the USA, MIT arrogance is pissing me off.
> We 'locals' can host a book sprint, and be treated
> like shit, not heard, not worthy of a visit from NN,
> WB, etc as Congress / funding is the Only priority,
> but not good enough to write/ be published (in ClassActs),
>  must less vote on things that effect us
> (SLOB)?
> 
> > I would also guess that if the current Fedora 9-based
> OS is a blocker to paramount needs they may try to update it
> themselves.
> 
> See the talk on the wiki.laptop.org F11forXO1 about some
> git commands and the 'we are not going to do it,
> but it's easy' type of tone, and then see if you
> can do it from what was provided...
> 
> > However, providing a better option as the
> F11/Sugar0.84+ is, in no way is in contrast with the
> "educational project".
> 
> > For one is _not_ a "computer education" project.
> 
> Isn't anything done on a computer,
> a computer education project? ;-/
> 
> But most people don't look under
> the hood of their cars (those that own cars...)
> 
> > So "upgrade your OS", is by no means a priority.
> 
> Install or develop?
> Remix the kernel modules?
> 
> > Is welcome, but in no way required.
> 
> > Expecting a 9-12 years old on the other hand to come
> up with the solutions is conceivable but nothing to depend
> on, either.
> 
> You might be surprised what 9-12 yos can do,
> but there are also high schools, colleges,
> administrators, teachers and community members
> and over the lifecycle of the project,
> kids starting out on XO's
> might want to graduate to hacking kernels,
> and going upstream, so to speak,
> with support instead of fighting
> the attitude that they are not good enough
> to do that...
> 
> > Finally the fact that if you give someone a fishing
> pole will eat fish all his/her life, does not preclude that
> you can not give them a fishing boat to get bigger fish, nor
> it implies they should built one.
> 
> Giving someone *the first* fishing pole (G1G1 Donor)
> does not mean that that once introduced to fishing,
> they cannot try making a fishing pole locally once seen...
> 
> Or better yet, adapt the pole to the type of waters
> locally.  Fishing off a dock / pier is one thing, in a
> stream,
> another, and in the ocean, requires something else
> entirely...
> 
> Not to mentioned bait...
> [humorous analogy to herding cats somewhere in here]
> 
> > They may as well build a boat by themselves but the
> goal here is to get as much and as good fish as possible
> given the needs.
> 
> Since we are talking fishing, is that for sport or to
> survive?
> 
> Here in the USA, many people are recreational
> fisherman/women/kids.
> 
> And some poor/ homeless in the city,
> that is the only way they get food/
> fresh fish, but the rivers are polluted, though better
> after the 1970's, but I'd guess here in Washington,DC
> somewhat still polluted and mercury (+whatever) poisoned.
> 
> > Finally self reliance is an important factor.
> 
> Respect is important too.
> 
> > However like everything else in teaching it must be
> build
> gradually, in the right order and by experience. Assigning
> tasks that
> will be never completed guaranties that you will build
> self
> depreciation rather than self reliance.
> 
> > And as you said "is an educational project".
> >
> > If I read your comments wrong, my apologies.
> >
> Well, you actually read them :-)
> and stated what you heard,
> so I'm responding, even if late,
> and still pissed about ClassActs/
> FlossManuals.net Index/ LyX/ LaTeX stuff.
> 
> Tux.org people were _involved_ in the
> ClassActs, but not even listed on the
> poster, t-shirt, invited to meet NN,
> WB, etc...
> 
> And if Sugar is to be truely cross platform,
> then it might want people who are involved
> in other distros (Ubuntu, YellowDog, etc )/
> hardware (Apple Mac, Sun?, etc)
> plus the whole user community instead of
> just developers (see criteria for SL membership)...
> 
> And most old hardware don't boot from USB
> (64 bit laptop w battery issue mentioned above),
> and really old stuff doesn't boot from CDR (Beige G3,
> and P1 class machines, i.e. stuff people give away/
> trash locally...), much less support virtualization
> (even 1st Gen 64 bit Averatec and this 64 bit desktop
> doesn't have the real cpu chip support)...
> 
> 
> >>
> >> My $.02 USD - costs of ownership/
> >> && giving back.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 12:33 PM, Yioryos
> Asprobounitis
> >> <mavrothal at yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Now, that's an excellent idea!
> >> > However, the crucial thing before any
> extensive
> >> building/testing starts is to address some major
> issues that
> >> would stop most people from using/testing
> F11/Sugar.84+.
> >> Namely the
> Xorg geode video driver,
> the camera
> and the battery monitor.
> 
> >> These will primarily need developers.
> >> > Having these components in place then a daily
> build
> >> bug fixing/reporting system would be more valuable
> since
> >> more people may be willing to give it a try,
> identifying the
> >> "minor" issues that may eventually allow a
> >> deployment-quality release.
> >> > If this is going to be an OLPC, Fedora or SL
> project,
> >> I think is irrelevant. XO-1 is an EOL machine that
> runs an
> >> OS/UI developed by "some other" organization. Is
> literally
> >> orphan (besides these limited efforts) so any
> "adopter"
> >> should be welcome. Whoever sets it up should be
> good to go.
> >> With almost a million users is the biggest
> educational
> >> linux/sugar implementation and worths every
> attention.
> >> >
> >> > --- On Mon, 9/21/09, David Farning <dfarning at sugarlabs.org>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> From: David Farning <dfarning at sugarlabs.org>
> >> >> Subject: Re: XO Special interest group at
> Sugar
> >> Labs
> >> >> To: fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com
> >> >> Cc: "iaep" <iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org>
> >> >> Date: Monday, September 21, 2009, 7:36
> PM
> >> >> On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 3:41 PM,
> >> >> Peter Robinson <pbrobinson at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Hi David,
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 7:48 PM,
> David
> >> Farning <dfarning at sugarlabs.org>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> For the past several months the
> >> OLPC/Sugar Labs
> >> >> ecosystem has been
> >> >> >> getting requests to provide
> releases of
> >> more
> >> >> recent versions of Sugar
> >> >> >> on the XO.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The leading effort in this
> direction
> >> seems to be
> >> >> the F11-XO1 project.
> >> >> >> I would like to like to invite
> F11-XO1 to
> >> become
> >> >> part of the XO SIG.
> >> >> >> I have been trying to articulate
> the
> >> project goals
> >> >> and gather momentum
> >> >> >> across several groups.
> >> >> >> 1.  OLPC as a downstream.
> 
> as posted by SL
> 
> >> >> >> 2. Sugar Labs as a focus point.
> 
> as posted by SL
> 
> >> >> >> 3. Various ecosystem leaders to
> do pilots
> >> with
> >> >> current versions of Sugar on XOs.
> 
> near as I can tell OLPC doesn't do Pilots,
> they expect results only, at least in the
> contributor program.
> 
> >> >> >> 4. Various testers to provide
> user level
> >> testing.
> 
> User level testing on the kernel???
> Or Sugar?
> Or Activities?
> Or the whole Gestalt?
> 
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The goal of this groups is not
> to
> >> _fragment_ the
> >> >> existing efforts.
> >> >> >> The goal is bring the various
> efforts
> >> together to
> >> >> form a critical mass
> >> >> >> to help pull this propel
> forward.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > As far as I'm aware there is no
> F11-XO1
> >> project, I'm
> >> >> aware of a couple
> >> >> > of different projects to get the
> latest Sugar
> >> releases
> >> >> on the XO.
> >> >> > - The SoaS on XO which is being run
> my Martin
> >> Dengler
> >> >> in conjunction
> >> >> > with SoaS and SL (that's where its
> all
> >> hosted).
> >> >> > - The OLPC project to get Fedora 11
> on both
> >> the XO-1.5
> >> >> and XO-1 which
> >> >> > is being handled by Steven M.
> Parrish (and
> >> Daniel
> >> >> Drake / Chris Ball)
> >> >>
> >> >> This confusion is part of what I am
> hoping to
> >> clear up by
> >> >> create a
> >> >> single clearly defined project.
> >> >>
> >> >> I have heard back from many of the people
> working
> >> on the
> >> >> various
> >> >> projects. the work flow seems to be:
> >> >> 1. Sugar development team creates
> platform.
> >> >> 2. Fedora packagers package Sugar... and
> >> everything else
> >> >> required to
> >> >> make a disto.
> >> >> 3a. SoaS takes packages and turns them
> into a Soas
> >> image.
> >> >> 3b. Soas is getting pretty well test via
> test days
> >> and
> >> >> deployments
> >> >> such as the GPA.
> >> >> 4a. Steven take the Fedora packages adds
> the XO
> >> specific
> >> >> bit and turns
> >> >> them into xo builds.
> >> >> 4b. limited testing for xo builds.
> >> >>
> >> >> Because of time restrictions, the F11 on
> XO effort
> >> seems to
> >> >> be
> >> >> reactive.  They take the output from cjb
> and the
> >> >> fedora packages and
> >> >> create builds.  I believe that the XO
> SIG could
> >> help
> >> >> generate interest
> >> >> and attract more developers and testers
> to the
> >> project.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Both projects are cross pollinated
> and use
> >> components
> >> >> of work done by
> >> >> > both as well as myself and other
> Fedora
> >> upstream
> >> >> people. I don't
> >> >> > believe there's much difference
> between them
> >> as where
> >> >> possible I
> >> >> > believe most stuff is pushed
> upsteam. There
> >> is no
> >> >> current Fedora based
> >> >> > project working on this directly due
> to the
> >> down
> >> >> stream projects.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I have my own build that I use but
> that
> >> isn't
> >> >> generally published and
> >> >> > is mostly to test core fedora for
> dependency
> >> bloat and
> >> >> breakages.
> >> >>
> >> >> Would it be useful if we started by
> combining your
> >> work and
> >> >> Stevens
> >> >> into an automatic build system.  This
> could help
> >> >> identify breakages.
> >> >> Then we could create a release cycle of
> alpha and
> >> beta and
> >> >> final
> >> >> releases.
> >> >>
> >> >> By creating the daily builds and widely
> >> broadcasting the
> >> >> various
> >> >> releases, we can engage a larger
> community of
> >> testers.
> >> >>
> >> >> david
> >> >>
> >> >>
> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Fedora-olpc-list mailing list
> >> >> Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com
> >> >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> _______________________________________________
> >> > Fedora-olpc-list mailing list
> >> > Fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com
> >> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-olpc-list
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> DancesWithCars
> >> leave the wolves behind ;-)
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> DancesWithCars
> leave the wolves behind ;-)
> 