Why don't you guys like synaptic?

[Paul Iadonisi]

On Thu, 2004-11-11 at 14:00 -0700, Kim Lux wrote:

[snip]

> The last time someone made that statement, the line was "upgrades from
> test releases are not supported."  Now that we've got a bug issue in a
> final release, the stance changes to "upgrades from test and release
> candidates" are not supported. 

  You seem insistent on asserting that there is a difference between
test releases and release candidates, while I don't remember anyone from
Red Hat indicating anything of the sort.  At least with respect to
upgrades from RCs to official releases, there is no difference.  I
haven't seen RCs even *defined*.  If they are not defined, how can you
expect *anything* to be any more guaranteed to work than test releases.
  So the stance has not changed at all.  You've just insisted on a
definition of test releases that I don't think whoever labels release
candidates as such shares.  If whoever decided on the label 'Release
Candidate' cares to comment, then fine, we may be on a path to defining
what a Release Candidate actually is.  Until then, you can assume
nothing.

> Let me ask you this: if an upgrade from a test release or a release
> candidate aren't guaranteed, how can you guarantee that an upgrade from
> a previous final release will work ?

  See above.  It all has to do an assumption you are making: that test
releases and RCs are different.

[mostly valid complaint about sound snipped]

  I won't argue with you about sound, since that is a change of topic
anyhow.  The problem at hand was yum repo files which are considered
*config* files which do not always get updated, especially if they have
been changed by the user (as that would be consider *bad* by most
admins).
  But for the sake of argument, lets look at the four scenarios you
presented:

1) FC2 final-> FC3Test3 = no sound
2) Clean FC3rc3 = no sound
3) FC3rc3 -> rc5 via yum when I finally got the repository = no sound.
4) FC3final = no sound.

1 - should have worked -- did you bugzilla?
2 - should have worked -- did you bugzilla (or update your bugzilla
entry?
3 - no guarantees whatsoever ... the repo problem is no surprise and if
you expect that to be fixed, you will be expecting for a long time
4 - should have worked, but only if you upgraded from FC2 or it was a
clean install -- bugzilla?

  Show me where anyone has argued differently.  If they did, you have
every right to complain.

  What I have explained has been the (re-iterated many times) policy for
as long as Red Hat has had beta/test/RC releases.  It has not changed
and likely won't.

  And I'll end it with a perfect example of what could easily have
happened during *this* testing cycle from FC2 to FC3: rpm file
conflicts.
  Through almost all test releases *and release candidates* file
conflicts in rpm was turned off.  It wasn't noticed until, I believe RC5
when the release notes were updated to reflect it.  The subsequent
flurry of protests triggered the rollback of the change to turn file
conflicts back on.  So it is entirely possible that some time between
FC3RC1 and FC3 official, there may have been a package in rawhide that
*overwrote* some file in some other rpm, but you never would have known.
Subsequently upgrading via yum/rpm would not have caught that problem
even when upgrading to the officially released rpm-4.3.2-21 and the
officially released rpms of the packages in question (the one that
overwrote the file from another package, and the one who's file got
overwritten).  But upgrading from FC2 *or* cleanly installing FC3 would
not have exhibited the problem at all.
  Should that have happened?  No.  Is it what happens in real life?
Yes.  But the fact is that here is a perfect example of what can happen
during a testing cycle that can cause possibly seriously unpredictable
results when upgrading *from* test releases (note that I include RCs in
my definition of test release until such time as whoever chose that
label pipes in with what he defines it as).
-- 
-Paul Iadonisi
 Senior System Administrator
 Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist
 Ever see a penguin fly?  --  Try Linux.
 GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets