[Bug 154763] Grub is inadequate without Lilo for backup

[Paul Iadonisi]

On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 13:45 -0600, Guy Fraser wrote:
> On Wed, 2005-20-04 at 13:31 -0400, Paul Iadonisi wrote:
> > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 10:52 -0600, Guy Fraser wrote:
> > 
> > [snip]
> > 
> >   Because I note a hint of willingness here, I'll respond again.

 [snip]

> 
> You do realize that while doing all these tests I will not 
> be able to use my machine for anything else.

  Absolutely.  Welcome to testing.

> > And keep this feedback loop going, minus the 'grub sucks, lilo rules'
> > rants.  We know where you stand on that...no need to muddy up the
> > bugzilla database with it.
> > 
> > The point is, if you're going to help test grub, at least make an
> > attempt to help developers fix it.  If you instantly want Red Hat to
> > abandon the idea of eliminating lilo as soon as you find a reproducible
> > bug in grub, then that's not much help.  Well, you can 'want' it, but
> > don't give up on helping to fix grub in the meantime.
> I do not suggest abandoning GRUB, it works well for many people.

  Read what you quoted from me again.  I never said you did suggest
abandoning grub.  Perhaps I'm wrong that you would like 'Red Hat to
abandon the idea of eliminating lilo'?


> > 
> > +1
> > 
> > Don't even get me going on info files.  It's just...twisted.
> I am not sure I understand that comment. Were you suggesting 
> that you don't care for info documentation either?

  You got it.  I was agreeing with you, here.  Info docs are evil.  Full
stop.

[snip]

> I would rather not install anything from Rawhide, I have been 
> badly bitten by it in the past.

You seem to qualify this below, a bit, but what, pray tell, are you
doing on fedora-test-list if you would rather not install anything from
rawhide?

>  I am willing to help, but I
> am not willing to loose all the data I have to do it. I am 
> also not comfortable having to be without a bootable machine 
> for more than a week.

  OMG!  I hope you didn't think I was suggesting that you test on a
production machine with valuable data.

>  RH should have the resources to provide 
> the developers with a ATA133 and SATA controller card along 
> with some drives to test with.

  I'm sure Red Hat has the financial resources to provide developers
with the same hardware that others are experiencing problems with re
grub.  But it is nigh impossible to account for every combination of
hardware out there, so I hope you are not suggesting that every time a
Fedora user has a problem with his particular hardware, that Red Hat
should pony up the cash to purchase that hardware combo.  Any
proprietary OS vendor would laugh at you for such a suggestion.

>  Not all QA should be the burden 
> of the Fedora test community.

  100% agree, but if Red Hat developers can't reproduce it...or let me
put it another way.  If *any* developer cannot reproduce a *specific*
problem that you are experiencing with your hardware, then it is going
to require relatively intense collaboration with the developer to get
the problem fixed.  It'll take some convincing before any developer,
even a commercial entity like Red Hat, will be willing to invest in a
new set of hardware components to test and fix just one bug and yet
another to fix another bug, etc., etc.

> I may even consider donating the ATA133 and SATA controllers, 
> since I will need at least one new SATA drive to do these 
> tests. Once the tests are over I will want to use all the 
> drives, and will need another SATA controller because I will 
> then have 5 SATA drives.
> 
> All along I have not been attempting to get rid of GRUB, I 
> have just wanted to be able to reliably use my machine, 
> without having to re-install whenever I add or remove a 
> non-boot drive.

  I don't think anyone has ever suggested that you were trying to get
rid of grub.  It's Red Hat getting rid of lilo altogether that you have
a problem with, from any reading of this thread.  While understandable
from the point of view of someone who has had no end of problems with
grub, I think you'll agree that if grub 'just works' in as many, or more
(which is likely, given the >2TB partition problem) situations in which
lilo 'just works', then no one should care if lilo goes away.

-- 
-Paul Iadonisi
 Senior System Administrator
 Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist
 Ever see a penguin fly?  --  Try Linux.
 GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets