What is the fascination with 'spins'

[Arthur Pemberton]

I have been following most of the discussion on the devel list about
the spins, and I would encourage any of you not subscribed to it to
check the archives so you may have an idea of what is going on, no
need to spread fud when the info is semi-easily available. (not
implying that this thread is mostly fud)

So I'll try to answer as much as I know based on the email of the OP.
I do not work for RedHat, just an avid Fedora user who tries to keep
pace with what is going on with it.

On 2/4/07, monty19@ hotmail.com <monty19 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> OK, here goes.  I'll probably have to duck and run for my life after this,
> although it's not my intention to upset anyone by any means.

No need to duck, we are mostly civilized here...if we have to fight,
we will face each other.

> Personally, I think having separate ISO images for Desktop, Developer,
> Server, KDE, and whatever else is a pretty silly idea.

Your opinion is flawed in that it is bias since have spins does not
benefit you. It does benefit me, thought not as much as others - the
benefit being added concentration on KDE in Fedora.

> It's one of the main
> reasons I don't like Ubuntu.

I have never tried Ubuntu myself, so I don't know what to make of this.

> I run Fedora on a system I would classify as a
> server, and one I would classify as a Desktop, although some would seem to
> classify it as a Developer Workstation, despite my rather sincere belief
> that I am not a developer.

I emphasize with you: my main FC6 machine is used as:
- PVR and television
- dev workstation (web and programs)
- desktop (KDE centric)
- lite backup
- file server
- web server of sorts
- email archiver

> Reagardless of classification though, it takes
> just one DVD to install any systems I have.  That's just me at home with two
> computers I run Linux on; now consider those in an IT environment and how
> many systems in how many different roles they may be supporting.

I think it is fair to assume that for large production environments,
one may use CentOS or RHEL as opposed to th fast paced Fedora

> How big a
> collection of discs is he going to need?

Also, at above 5 machine installs, you should already have moved away
from disk installs to a local repo.

> And if you're going to point at
> that individual and say he should be using RHEL, or something similar, then
> why have a server spin at all?

That will be for those of use setting up a small, often headless
server which we would like to use Fedora on. Ideal spin to keep in
your work bag so you can setup a Fedora server in a small amount of
time...typically in a non heavy production environment or for ones
personal use.

> I like having just one CD, with the vast majority of what I want to install.
> It takes me a few minutes tops to download what I want from Extras now,
> versus the many times that it took to install the developer packages I
> wanted with F7T1...

Fair enough. I haven't tried F7T1 myself. However, for a desktop or
server only installs, one really should not be compiling stuff on the
machine, ie. it is fair to assume most of the packages that you will
need will come from your spin.

> Now, I know it is a goal to merge Fedora Core and Extras, so here are my
> questions.  As of Fedora 6, it looks like the binary CD was ~3.4GB (going
> off of http://torrent.fedoraproject.org/)

You keep saying CD, I'm assuming you mean DVD, or more generally, disk.

> That still leaves 1.3GB on a
> 4.7GB DVD available for new additions.

DVDs (normally) hold more along the lines of 4.3GB, 4.7GB is more of
the marketing number, last I checked.

> How big is Extras?

Extras is massive...just throwing a guess I would say at least twice
that of core. And unlike Core, there is no predictable limit to its
growth. Luckily for mirrors, hard drive space is fairly cheap,
however, bandwidth is still a limiting factor. Also, extras also has a
lot of redundant packages - ie. programs that do the same thing, or
replace others. To give an example, I believe there are 5 window
managers in Core+Extras.

> Even if it is
> bigger than that, why not create one DVD to the fullest extent that you can
> with the most popular packages

That in itself would be a spin: Fedora Popular if you will. But, how
do you tell what is popular? Fedora Metrics is not in full swing yet.

> and then create a second install disc for
> the remaining packages, more akin to the Solaris Companion Disc.

You're assuming 2 DVDs can store everything, I highly doubt this. I
think 3 DVDs would a more realistic estimate.

> How many
> images are you going to release?  Two per supported platform seems better
> than what sounds like a whole lot more coming down the road...

Why does it sound better? You wanting all the packages isn't really an
objective answer.

> I look at it this way; if you're going to download two ISO images, then why
> not download two that have all the packages you want.  Why download a server
> disc, and a desktop disc, which may both be lacking packages you want to
> install, and then are forced to download anyway...

You're making a lot of assumptions here.
1) Most people will want multiple spins
2) A single spin will be lacking for the downloaders needs
3) Most can afford to download 2+ DVDs
4) That once you download X disks, there isn't much downloading to do
- a lot of times this is not true. Between the devel freeze and the
time you actually get to download a release, there are often a lot of
updates made.

> I'm not saying that the ability to create your own disc with just the
> software you want is necessarilly a bad thing either; it's just that with
> the current route there are going to be a lot more people making their own
> discs, than downloading the ones created by the Fedora team, and then what's
> the point of releasing any at all?

It maybe a good idea , I think, to just create a spin with the
installer only and the ability to reliably network install everything
else. Since you can afford to download 2+ DVDs this shouldn't be a
problem for you.

Regardless though, I think that is fair to assume that there will be
an Everything spin, either official, or semi official since your wants
aren't too unique. You objectives would be best server by sending an
email to someone in the devel team to confirm this.

> I just can't help but feel like this is a less than ideal turn of direction
> for Fedora,

Maybe so, but I can't say that I share that sentiment yet.

> not just for the reasons above, but also because it is going to
> confuse new users.

I think that a user who can't decide what disk they want, most likely
wouldn't know what to do with 2 or 3 DVDs of software either. They
would be better served by some script to help them choose.

> Which of the discs do I want?  What if I need something
> else?
You do what you do now...yum install foo

> Do I have to create my own spin?

That is an option.

> Can I download it afterward?

Also an option.

> Simple questions for everyone here, but it's going to confuse the daylights
> out of people looking at Linux as an alternative to whatever they are
> running now...

Someone confused by this will not need -devel packages, and will
probably be best served by a simplistic DE like Gnome, ie. until they
learn more, the Fedora Desktop spin will be the best thing for them.

> Just my two cents, for whatever they're worth...

Your opinions are worth a lot.

Peace

-- 
Fedora Core 6 and proud