Fedora 10 updates-testing report

Wed Dec 10 14:09:43 UTC 2008

On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 06:47 -0800, Scott Doty (personal) wrote:
> updates at fedoraproject.org wrote:
> > The following builds have been pushed to Fedora 10 updates-testing
> >
> > [ and so forth ]
> 
> Good morning,
> 
> I've just had a discussion on Freenode's #fedora, where there seemed to 
> be a mixed response regarding f10 updates testing.
> 
> Specifically, I asked if someone used f10 updates testing, would there 
> be support for any problems on #fedora -- the response was mixed, with 
> some folks saying that updates-testing wasn't appropriate for a 
> production system, and therefore, shouldn't be supported in #fedora.
> 
> There was also some confusing talk about how updates-testing was only 
> appropriate for "development servers", as well as other snarky 
> statements that were unproductive, and only deserve a passing mention here.
> 
> But this raises the question:  Why _wouldn't_ we want to encourage folks 
> to use updates-testing?  After all, the line between "production" and 
> "development" is almost never a black/white situation, but instead, a 
> grayscale.
> 
> It almost seems that the attitude with regard to support on Freenode's 
> #fedora is largely based on trying to answer the question:  "how can we 
> avoid helping people?"... instead of: "how can we get this person back 
> up-and-running?".
> 
> Also, I'd like to thank folks on that #fedora channel for avoiding snide 
> or cryptic comments to folks /join'ing the channel
> for help...the incidents of this have been much curtailed, leaving only 
> one or two dinosaurs who haven't discovered yet that
> their attitudes are extinct.

Scott,

Based on your message here and your rant in #fedora-ops yesterday, I
went back through the IRC log for #fedora and found what your talking
about:

Dec 09 09:03:25 <vallor>	bitchkat: I'm not sure how comfortable I am
with installing something from updates-testing, but I will consider
it...and it's very nice to know that there is another workaround! :)
Dec 09 09:03:55 -->	maxamillion (n=adam at ss-5-41.shsu.edu) has joined
#fedora
Dec 09 09:04:23 <bitchkat>	vallor, its not like its a big thing that's
getting installed. and you can always reinstall from updates when its
pushed down there
Dec 09 09:05:02 <--	spheniscus has quit ("Leaving")
Dec 09 09:05:09 <--	erikwt has quit ("Bye")
Dec 09 09:05:13 <bitchkat>	if uninstalling it took a bazillion other
packages with it, then I probably wouldn't do that
Dec 09 09:05:48 <--	breeze (n=breeze_g at 61.162.203.10) has left #fedora
Dec 09 09:06:03 -->	rgoandrade
(n=Consignu at 201-40-41-29.cbace700.t.brasiltelecom.net.br) has joined
#fedora
Dec 09 09:06:41 <vallor>	bitchkat: definitely :) -- but if i update
using updates-testing, I'm not sure that folks on this channel would
help, if I ran into a problem with my system...so I'm trying to stay
with f10 w/out any testing repos
Dec 09 09:06:42 <--	shoonya has quit ("Leaving")
Dec 09 09:07:02 <rgoandrade>	brazilian ???
Dec 09 09:07:31 -->	uu_ (n=uu at 121.32.78.54) has joined #fedora
Dec 09 09:07:33 <bitchkat>	vallor, you're not updating everything from
updates-testing, just installing one package which you can always
uninstall
Dec 09 09:07:36 <--	uu has quit (Client Quit)
Dec 09 09:07:46 <vallor>	rgoandrade: #fedora-br ?
Dec 09 09:07:58 -->	perlmonkey2 (n=perlmonk at 69.92.92.41) has joined
#fedora
Dec 09 09:08:44 <mschmidt>	vallor, testers of updates-testing are
welcome, especially when they later add comments to the updates they're
testing :-)
Dec 09 09:08:57 <vallor>	bitchkat: okay, I'll consider it...might be
interesting to see what happens
Dec 09 09:09:39 -->	spheniscus (n=sphenisc at nat9158.ebi.ac.uk) has joined
#fedora
Dec 09 09:10:14 -->	gregord
(n=gregd at h216-170-228-50.mdsnwi.tisp.static.tds.net) has joined #fedora
Dec 09 09:10:20 <vallor>	mschmidt: right, but if I start using
updates-testing on this production workstation, and I run into a
problem, will folks help get the system back on track?  Or will folks
say, "sorry, yer runnin' that testin' stuff, we won't support that" ?
Dec 09 09:10:51 <opsec>	he latter.
Dec 09 09:11:03 <tyll>	Is there a vncviewer in Fedora that can connect
to unix domain sockets?
Dec 09 09:11:09 <mschmidt>	vallor, I can't speak for all, but at least
some of us would try to help
Dec 09 09:11:09 <--	rgoandrade
(n=Consignu at 201-40-41-29.cbace700.t.brasiltelecom.net.br) has left
#fedora
Dec 09 09:11:17 <opsec>	"testing" and "production" don't belong on the
same box
Dec 09 09:11:36 <vallor>	opsec: well sir, that's kind of a problem,
means less folks will be willing to test
Dec 09 09:11:56 <opsec>	what are you talking about?
Dec 09 09:11:57 <vallor>	opsec: ...and have you noticed the relative
dearth of testers lately?
Dec 09 09:12:08 <opsec>	testing things belongs on dev servers
Dec 09 09:12:32 <bitchkat>	and servers probably don't have a big need
for gnome-packagekit
Dec 09 09:12:55 <opsec>	you only shoot yourself in the foot when you
install test software on a production server
Dec 09 09:13:16 <vallor>	opsec: okay, then how does that fit in with
(say) my home workstation, which I would be willing to run
updates-testing on, assuming folks are willing to help support it?
Dec 09 09:13:21 <opsec>	it shows you either don't know much, or you're
calling your desktop a "server"
Dec 09 09:13:43 <vallor>	opsec: since when have I called my desktop a
server?
Dec 09 09:14:19 <vallor>	opsec: really, Sir, it's difficult to fathom
how Fedora is going to be well-tested, without a healthy cohort of
testers

Based on his discussion, It seems that you are the one that is confused.
Nobody in the channel says that packages from updates-testing are not
supported in the #fedora channel.  You appear to be confusing what opsec
said.  Testing packages do not belong on a production "SERVER".  You do
not want to experiment on your live sever, that is what a development
server should be tasked with.

Please explain to me where somebody during this exchange stated that
people using the updates-testing repo would not be supported in #fedora?

Or during any exchange from an Op in #fedora?

Now please take your personal grudge with the users, individuals that
help, and ops to those individuals and resolve the personality conflicts
you have with those individuals or get over it.

Scott Glaser
Fedora Unity Project
http://fedoraunity.org