From sarahs at redhat.com Tue Jun 1 03:32:12 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 13:32:12 +1000 Subject: Fedora-trans-list Digest, Vol 3, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: <200405312344.54008.gert@hbrothers.nl> References: <20040531160015.C827F74540@hormel.redhat.com> <200405312344.54008.gert@hbrothers.nl> Message-ID: <40BBF8BC.9000809@redhat.com> Done. You can sign up again now. Sarah G.P.Huizenga wrote: >Sarah could you do the same for me? >i've made a mistake for the ssh key and i can't get it back could you reset my >account? >it's > name:Gert Huizenga > login:lefty > >cincerely >Gert Huizenga > > > From mailing-list at gmx.net Tue Jun 1 09:07:40 2004 From: mailing-list at gmx.net (mailing-list at gmx.net) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:07:40 +0200 Subject: account update In-Reply-To: <40BB1DB3.9000901@redhat.com> References: <40BB1DB3.9000901@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406011107.40051.mailing-list@gmx.net> Hallo! Could anyone update my account (lost ssh-files) ? ?name:Georg M. Zajko ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? login:gzajko ? Thanks, Georg From sarahs at redhat.com Wed Jun 2 04:51:31 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 14:51:31 +1000 Subject: account update In-Reply-To: <200406011107.40051.mailing-list@gmx.net> References: <40BB1DB3.9000901@redhat.com> <200406011107.40051.mailing-list@gmx.net> Message-ID: <40BD5CD3.3010508@redhat.com> Hi, Your account has been deleted. Please sign up again using the new ssh keys. Regards, Sarah mailing-list at gmx.net wrote: >Hallo! > >Could anyone update my account (lost ssh-files) > > name:Georg M. Zajko > login:gzajko > >Thanks, >Georg > > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > From sarahs at redhat.com Wed Jun 2 05:00:54 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:00:54 +1000 Subject: Sinhalese rabbithole (si) In-Reply-To: <20040502142447.GA17357@zippy.bellevue.home> References: <20040502142447.GA17357@zippy.bellevue.home> Message-ID: <40BD5F06.8070007@redhat.com> Hi, All initial si.po files have been added to cvs. You can now check out the translate/ module and add translations to those files. For instructions on becoming a translator and getting the files, please refer to: https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2003-December/msg00001.html Thanks for the participation! Sarah Kheeran D wrote: >Hi guys, > >What do I need to do to start translating Fedora into Sinhalese? > >Cheers, >Kheeran > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > From sarahs at redhat.com Wed Jun 2 05:03:24 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 15:03:24 +1000 Subject: Translation FAQ Message-ID: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> Hi everyone, I'm in the process of compiling a Fedora Translation Project FAQ. All suggestions and contributions welcome! Thanks, Sarah From shakeel at naseebnetworks.com Wed Jun 2 07:33:11 2004 From: shakeel at naseebnetworks.com (Muhammad Shakeel) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 12:33:11 +0500 Subject: Translation FAQ In-Reply-To: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> Message-ID: <40BD82B7.5000106@naseebnetworks.com> Hi Sarah, Can u please specify some resourceful URLs, I'm looking for something similar for my translations in Urdu. Regards, Shakeel Sarah Wang wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'm in the process of compiling a Fedora Translation Project FAQ. All > suggestions and contributions welcome! > > Thanks, > > Sarah > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From sarahs at redhat.com Wed Jun 2 10:08:06 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:08:06 +1000 Subject: Kurdish rabbithole (ku) In-Reply-To: <000601c44600$9f225c30$6c0ba8c0@avalab> References: <000601c44600$9f225c30$6c0ba8c0@avalab> Message-ID: <40BDA706.10200@redhat.com> Hi, I have added ku.po to all packages. You can now check out the translate/ module and start adding translations to those files. Thanks for your participation! Sarah hunar wrote: >Hi, >I would like to be involved in fedora project for Kurdish language, I hold BS in CS and currently working on MS in Computer Eng. >My native language is kurdish. Please advice how to get involved > >Thanks > >Hunar > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > From sarahs at redhat.com Wed Jun 2 10:12:36 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:12:36 +1000 Subject: Marathi rabbithole (mr) In-Reply-To: <20040522133836.50735779.karunakar@freedomink.org> References: <20040518100255.27552.qmail@web8303.mail.in.yahoo.com> <20040522133836.50735779.karunakar@freedomink.org> Message-ID: <40BDA814.8060005@redhat.com> Hi, I have added mr.po to all packages. You can now check out the translate/ module and start adding translations to those files. Thanks for your participation! Sarah Guntupalli Karunakar wrote: >On Tue, 18 May 2004 11:02:55 +0100 (BST) >Fedora Maayboli wrote: > > > >>Hello Sir/Madam, >> I am interested in translating fedora for MARATHI >>language. >> I am going through the documentation. >> If you can send me some more information and >>starting points it will be very helpful for me. >> >>Also please mail me any other information / links, >>responsibility etc. >> >> >> > >these ppl here at http://www.indictrans.org are working on Marathi. > >Regards, >Karunakar > > > From sarahs at redhat.com Wed Jun 2 10:12:52 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:12:52 +1000 Subject: Urdu rabbithole (ur) In-Reply-To: <40ADEBF0.1030007@naseebnetworks.com> References: <40ADEBF0.1030007@naseebnetworks.com> Message-ID: <40BDA824.3000804@redhat.com> Hi, I have added ur.po to all packages. You can now check out the translate/ module and start adding translations to those files. Thanks for your participation! Sarah Muhammad Shakeel Ahmad wrote: > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From lvm at mystery.lviv.net Wed Jun 2 15:46:28 2004 From: lvm at mystery.lviv.net (Volodymyr M. Lisivka) Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 18:46:28 +0300 Subject: Translation FAQ In-Reply-To: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> Message-ID: <40BDF654.3090408@mystery.lviv.net> Sarah Wang wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'm in the process of compiling a Fedora Translation Project FAQ. All > suggestions and contributions welcome! > Can you add few words about - "prioritizing messages" using builtin gettext functions (or gettextlog.sf.net); - using LANG and LC_MESSAGES environment variables to change language of the program; - using locale, localedef commands to verify existing locale or define new; - using msmerge, msgcat utils to share translations; - validation of the translation file (comment at top of file, file header, msgfmt -c -v -o /dev/null filename.po, ispell, etc.); - utilities for translators (KBabel, gTranslator, poEdit, po-mode.el for Emacs, maybe some web-utils). (I just looked at TOC of my article in Ukrainan language). From pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt Wed Jun 2 16:06:22 2004 From: pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt (Pedro Morais) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 17:06:22 +0100 Subject: Translation FAQ In-Reply-To: <40BDF654.3090408@mystery.lviv.net> References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> <40BDF654.3090408@mystery.lviv.net> Message-ID: <200406021706.22913.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> > - utilities for translators (KBabel, gTranslator, poEdit, po-mode.el > for Emacs, maybe some web-utils). And gettext lint tools - http://mega.ist.utl.pt/~pmmm/gettext-lint/ Pedro Morais From spr_swsipn at sancharnet.in Thu Jun 3 19:42:02 2004 From: spr_swsipn at sancharnet.in (swapnil lale) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 01:12:02 +0530 Subject: Fw: Marathi rabbithole (mr) Message-ID: <40BF7F0A.000006.03928@LALE> -------Original Message------- From: swapnil lale Date: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:21:28 PM To: fedora-trans-list at redhat.com Subject: Marathi rabbithole (mr) Respected Sir, Hello, I am Dr.S.V.LALE, working as a medical officer at Primary health centre, Shankarnar, Taluka-Malshiras, District- Solapur, Maharashtra. The Marathi version should be useful for 50% of maharashtrians who don?t know English script & can only write & speak Marathi. Intentionally I neither referred to dictionary nor consulted professors of Marathi literature. I have not translated the words in literal sense; but described the action, the command in question performs. Marathi in Maharashtra is not homogenous either. Varhadi, Khandeshi, Konkani, Vidarbhi, Marathwadi are its different variations. But commonly used words are used here. I am trying to exchange Pundit?s word with those of Bolibhasha. Further Thesaurus, synonyms, spell check is also equally important Please give me a chance to contribute there also. Waiting for your reply.Please do mail me. DR S.V.LALE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMSTP.gif Type: image/gif Size: 494 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bgroh at redhat.com Fri Jun 4 06:59:30 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2004 16:59:30 +1000 Subject: Software Status Pages Message-ID: <40C01DD2.2020509@redhat.com> Hi All, the software status pages are back online. Sorry about the inconvenience. We're planning on rolling out the new status pages over the next few weeks, I'll keep you updated. Cheers, Bernd From andrei.nestor at ro.ibm.com Fri Jun 4 08:00:12 2004 From: andrei.nestor at ro.ibm.com (Andrei Nestor) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 11:00:12 +0300 Subject: romanian Message-ID: hi, is anybody coordinating the translation for romanian? thanks! andrei -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mailing-list at gmx.net Fri Jun 4 12:58:25 2004 From: mailing-list at gmx.net (mailing-list at gmx.net) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 14:58:25 +0200 Subject: German In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406041458.26223.mailing-list@gmx.net> Who is coordinating the translation for german? Thanks, Georg From mailinglists at andreas-mueller.com Fri Jun 4 13:16:27 2004 From: mailinglists at andreas-mueller.com (Andreas Mueller) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:16:27 +0200 Subject: German In-Reply-To: <200406041458.26223.mailing-list@gmx.net> References: <200406041458.26223.mailing-list@gmx.net> Message-ID: <200406041516.27090.mailinglists@andreas-mueller.com> Hi Georg, mailing-list at gmx.net wrote: > Who is coordinating the translation for german? Please subscribe to fedora-trans-de-list. Bernd Groh is the coordinator of the german translations. If you have further questions, please ask on the german list. > Thanks, > Georg Regards + Gr??e, Andreas. From mailinglists at andreas-mueller.com Fri Jun 4 13:18:16 2004 From: mailinglists at andreas-mueller.com (Andreas Mueller) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 15:18:16 +0200 Subject: German In-Reply-To: <200406041516.27090.mailinglists@andreas-mueller.com> References: <200406041458.26223.mailing-list@gmx.net> <200406041516.27090.mailinglists@andreas-mueller.com> Message-ID: <200406041518.16427.mailinglists@andreas-mueller.com> Andreas Mueller wrote: > Hi Georg, > > mailing-list at gmx.net wrote: > > Who is coordinating the translation for german? > > Please subscribe to fedora-trans-de-list. Of course it is "fedora-trans-de". From xamc at rumos.pt Fri Jun 4 02:01:29 2004 From: xamc at rumos.pt (Alexandre Costa) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2004 03:01:29 +0100 Subject: Signing again References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> <40BDF654.3090408@mystery.lviv.net> <200406021706.22913.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Message-ID: <000a01c449d7$d9f7aba0$3f7281d9@netvisao.pt> Hi all I've away for sometime now, and i just checked my mail and saw all this messages.. is it for everyone that "sign again" thing ? Thanx. Alexandre Costa Redhat's RHCE, RHCX From razvan.vilt at linux360.ro Sat Jun 5 22:07:42 2004 From: razvan.vilt at linux360.ro (Razvan Corneliu C.R. "d3vi1" VILT) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 01:07:42 +0300 Subject: romanian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1086473262.25429.3.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 11:00, Andrei Nestor wrote: > hi, is anybody coordinating the translation for romanian? thanks! > andrei linux360 is taking care of this. We still have about 4000 strings left (for anaconda/system-config-*/other_[fedora|redhat]_tools). Feel free to join us. We don't have a site for this yet, but one will be up soon. Mail me for more info about this. Cheers, R?zvan Corneliu VILT e-mail:razvan.vilt at linux360.ro GPG:http://d3vi1.linux360.ro/public-keys/ www: http://d3vi1.linux360.ro/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dtradd at linuxmail.org Sun Jun 6 05:33:54 2004 From: dtradd at linuxmail.org (=?iso-8859-1?B?RnJhbmNpc2NvIEdhcmPtYS1QYXN0b3I= ?=) Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2004 23:33:54 -0600 Subject: Spanish Translation Message-ID: <20040606053354.2668B4160BE@ws5-2.us4.outblaze.com> Hi! I just joined this list and I'd like to know how can I start working in spanish translation. Thank you. Darth Tradd -- Lo ?nico malo de irse al cielo, es que ah? el cielo no se ve. Augusto Monterroso -- ______________________________________________ Check out the latest SMS services @ http://www.linuxmail.org This allows you to send and receive SMS through your mailbox. Powered by Outblaze From rodolfo at heartsome.net Sun Jun 6 12:27:55 2004 From: rodolfo at heartsome.net (Rodolfo M. Raya) Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 09:27:55 -0300 Subject: Spanish Translation In-Reply-To: <20040606053354.2668B4160BE@ws5-2.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20040606053354.2668B4160BE@ws5-2.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <1086524874.2935.1.camel@elrond.maxprograms.com> On Sun, 2004-06-06 at 02:33, =?iso-8859-1?B?RnJhbmNpc2NvIEdhcmPtYS1QYXN0b3I= ?= wrote: > Hi! > > I just joined this list and I'd like to know how can I start working in spanish translation. Thank you. > > > Darth Tradd Hi, Please join fedora-trans-es list. It is quiet now, but all hands are welcome. Regards, Rodolfo -- Rodolfo M. Raya Heartsome Holdings Pte. Ltd. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andrewm at inventa.ru Mon Jun 7 07:04:34 2004 From: andrewm at inventa.ru (Andrew Martynov) Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2004 11:04:34 +0400 Subject: Release Notes translations in FC3 Message-ID: <40C41382.204@inventa.ru> Hello, Jeremy and Sarah! Is it possible to include translations of Release Notes to next release of Fedora Core? I suppose it will be more comfortable to end user to read Release Notes before / within installations in native language. Our translation team made translation to Russian of final Release Notes of FC2 in 3-4 hours, so I think it is possible to make translation for every language in last 1-2 days before Release. It will take little amount of time to announce and recieve translations but result will be great. I think it is not hard to write proper part of code in anaconda souce. Thank you, Andrew Martynov From josep at imatge-sintetica.com Tue Jun 8 20:30:36 2004 From: josep at imatge-sintetica.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 22:30:36 +0200 Subject: anaconda Message-ID: <1086726636.4033.58.camel@deimos> I found this string in anaconda: #: ../gui.py:638 ../text.py:283 #, python-format msgid "" "The following error was found while parsing your kickstart configuration:n\n" "%s" The question is if that "n" after the colon in "configuration:n" should be there or not. Jeremy? Thanks! /Josep From katzj at redhat.com Tue Jun 8 20:43:58 2004 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:43:58 -0400 Subject: anaconda In-Reply-To: <1086726636.4033.58.camel@deimos> References: <1086726636.4033.58.camel@deimos> Message-ID: <1086727438.32029.14.camel@bree.local.net> On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 22:30 +0200, Josep Puigdemont wrote: > I found this string in anaconda: [snip] > The question is if that "n" after the colon in "configuration:n" should > be there or not. Jeremy? Typo, should be \n. I've corrected it in the source and should be updating the pot file later tonight (I've got a few things half done in my tree with strings and so don't want to update and commit those changes yet) Jeremy From andrei.nestor at ro.ibm.com Thu Jun 10 12:38:26 2004 From: andrei.nestor at ro.ibm.com (Andrei Nestor) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:38:26 +0100 Subject: account update In-Reply-To: <40BB2059.3000101@redhat.com> Message-ID: sorry about this, but could you delete my account again? the account name is "dannutz". thanks! PS: don't ask. -- Salutari/Best Regards, Andrei Nestor Suport Tehnic eServer pSeries IBM Romania fedora-trans-list-bounces at redhat.com wrote on 05/31/2004 01:08:57 PM: > Done. You can sign up again now. > > Sarah > > Dan Andrei Nestor wrote: > > >Thanks Sarah, my account name is "dannutz". > > > > > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sarahs at redhat.com Thu Jun 10 22:59:51 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:59:51 +1000 Subject: account update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C8E7E7.40900@redhat.com> Done again :) Sarah Andrei Nestor wrote: >sorry about this, but could you delete my account again? >the account name is "dannutz". > >thanks! > >PS: don't ask. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > From josep at imatge-sintetica.com Fri Jun 11 00:32:41 2004 From: josep at imatge-sintetica.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:32:41 +0200 Subject: anaconda In-Reply-To: <1086727438.32029.14.camel@bree.local.net> References: <1086726636.4033.58.camel@deimos> <1086727438.32029.14.camel@bree.local.net> Message-ID: <1086913961.2561.342.camel@deimos> On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 22:43, Jeremy Katz wrote: > On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 22:30 +0200, Josep Puigdemont wrote: > > I found this string in anaconda: > [snip] > > The question is if that "n" after the colon in "configuration:n" should > > be there or not. Jeremy? > > Typo, should be \n. I've got yet another question... #: ../image.py:284 #, fuzzy, python-format msgid "Please insert %s disc %d to continue." What does the string "%s" refer to, is it the name of the disk like: "Please insert _drivers_ disc 1 to continue."? Could you give a couple of examples? Thanks! /Josep From a.t.meinen at chello.nl Fri Jun 11 04:39:31 2004 From: a.t.meinen at chello.nl (Tino Meinen) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 06:39:31 +0200 Subject: anaconda In-Reply-To: <1086913961.2561.342.camel@deimos> References: <1086726636.4033.58.camel@deimos> <1086727438.32029.14.camel@bree.local.net> <1086913961.2561.342.camel@deimos> Message-ID: <1086928770.4668.6.camel@a141159.upc-a.chello.nl> Op vr 11-06-2004, om 02:32 schreef Josep Puigdemont: > On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 22:43, Jeremy Katz wrote: > > On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 22:30 +0200, Josep Puigdemont wrote: > > > I found this string in anaconda: > > [snip] > > > The question is if that "n" after the colon in "configuration:n" should > > > be there or not. Jeremy? > > > > Typo, should be \n. > > I've got yet another question... > > #: ../image.py:284 > #, fuzzy, python-format > msgid "Please insert %s disc %d to continue." > > What does the string "%s" refer to, is it the name of the disk like: > "Please insert _drivers_ disc 1 to continue."? > Could you give a couple of examples? It very likely is the name of the distribution. So it used to be: Please insert Redhat disc 1 to continue but it is now: Please insert Fedora Core disc 1 to continue. But anaconda is used in lots of different distributions so other distribution names might appear there as well Tino Meinen From sarahs at redhat.com Fri Jun 11 06:15:17 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 16:15:17 +1000 Subject: Release Notes translations in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40C41382.204@inventa.ru> References: <40C41382.204@inventa.ru> Message-ID: <40C94DF5.5030302@redhat.com> Hi Jeremy, What's your view on this? I'd like to know the impact on anaconda before considering translate the release-notes. And do you know who is the writer of the FC release-notes? Sarah Andrew Martynov wrote: > Hello, Jeremy and Sarah! > > Is it possible to include translations of Release Notes to next > release of Fedora Core? > > I suppose it will be more comfortable to end user to read Release > Notes before / within installations > in native language. > > Our translation team made translation to Russian of final Release > Notes of FC2 in 3-4 hours, > so I think it is possible to make translation for every language in > last 1-2 days before Release. > > It will take little amount of time to announce and recieve > translations but result will be great. > > I think it is not hard to write proper part of code in anaconda souce. > > Thank you, > Andrew Martynov > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From katzj at redhat.com Fri Jun 11 06:44:29 2004 From: katzj at redhat.com (Jeremy Katz) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:44:29 -0400 Subject: Release Notes translations in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40C94DF5.5030302@redhat.com> References: <40C41382.204@inventa.ru> <40C94DF5.5030302@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1086936269.32029.49.camel@bree.local.net> On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 16:15 +1000, Sarah Wang wrote: > What's your view on this? I'd like to know the impact on anaconda > before considering translate the release-notes. And do you know who is > the writer of the FC release-notes? The anaconda impact is minimal (all of the code to handle the translations is already there and thus should Just Work unless things break). As far as the writing of the release notes, Ed does it for Fedora Core releases as well. Jeremy From ml at elf.no-ip.org Sun Jun 13 20:32:11 2004 From: ml at elf.no-ip.org (Tadashi Jokagi) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 05:32:11 +0900 Subject: Release Notes translations in FC3 In-Reply-To: <40C41382.204@inventa.ru> References: <40C41382.204@inventa.ru> Message-ID: <40ccb9cb.3063%ml@elf.no-ip.org> Hi, Andrew Martynov's <40C41382.204 at inventa.ru> wrote: I want to put in the release notes of a Japanese translation. thanks, -- ----.----1----.----2----.----3----.----4----.----5----.----6----.----7 Tadashi Jokagi/Setagaya city mailto:elf at elf.no-ip.org Fedora JP Project http://fedora.jp/ Fedora Project http://fedora.redhat.com/ Fedora and Red Hat are registered trademarks of Red Hat Inc. From anousak at muanglao.com Fri Jun 11 15:32:29 2004 From: anousak at muanglao.com (Anousak Souphavanh) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:32:29 -0700 Subject: Lao rabbithole (lo) Message-ID: Attached is Lao locale which I created and submitted to glibc. Thanks, Anousak S. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: lo Type: application/octet-stream Size: 3357 bytes Desc: not available URL: From xamc at rumos.pt Thu Jun 17 22:06:01 2004 From: xamc at rumos.pt (Alexandre Costa) Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 23:06:01 +0100 Subject: Translation FAQ References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> <40BDF654.3090408@mystery.lviv.net> <200406021706.22913.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Message-ID: <003301c454b7$49b89b40$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Hi All. How is the progress on Portuguese FC3?? Im going to have a little free time in 2 weeks from now. Need any help ? Cheers Alexandre Costa, Rumos S.A. RHCE, RHCX From barzilay at redhat.com Thu Jun 17 22:50:09 2004 From: barzilay at redhat.com (David Barzilay) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 08:50:09 +1000 Subject: Translation FAQ In-Reply-To: <003301c454b7$49b89b40$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> <40BDF654.3090408@mystery.lviv.net> <200406021706.22913.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> <003301c454b7$49b89b40$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Message-ID: <40D22021.8000302@redhat.com> Alexandre Costa escreveu: >Hi All. How is the progress on Portuguese FC3?? Im going to have a little >free time in 2 weeks from now. Need any help ? > >Cheers > >Alexandre Costa, Rumos S.A. RHCE, RHCX > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > Hi Alex, Fedora Core 3 is under development, and FC2 is 100% translated to pt (check http://i18n.brisbane.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status). We haven't a Portuguese mailing list for Fedora translations so far (although we do have Portuguese people watching the pt_BR mailing list). If you feel like gathering other 4 people interested on pt translations in order to start the mailing list, please send an e-mail to sarahs at redhat.com. Regards, -- David Barzilay Technical Translator - Brazilian Portuguese Red Hat Asia-Pacific +61 7 3872.4870 http://www.redhat.com http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer "When we combine a warm heart with knowledge and education, we can learn to respect other's views and other's rights. This becomes the basis of a spirit of reconciliation that can be used to overcome agression and resolve our conflits." Dalai Lama From pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt Thu Jun 17 23:25:12 2004 From: pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt (Pedro Morais) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 00:25:12 +0100 Subject: Translation FAQ In-Reply-To: <003301c454b7$49b89b40$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> <200406021706.22913.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> <003301c454b7$49b89b40$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Message-ID: <200406180025.12759.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Em Quinta, 17 de Junho de 2004 23:06, Alexandre Costa escreveu: > Hi All. How is the progress on Portuguese FC3?? Im going to have a little > free time in 2 weeks from now. Need any help ? Hi! As David said, Fedora is 100% translated to pt_PT. What would be great was if you could proofread the translations. Contact me if you'd like to help. Thanks, Pedro Morais > > Cheers > > Alexandre Costa, Rumos S.A. RHCE, RHCX > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list -- Pedro Morais - morais at kde.org - http://www.rnl.ist.utl.pt/~pmmm/ From amc at rumos.pt Fri Jun 18 12:51:01 2004 From: amc at rumos.pt (Alexandre Costa) Date: 18 Jun 2004 13:51:01 +0100 Subject: Translation FAQ In-Reply-To: <40D22021.8000302@redhat.com> References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> <40BDF654.3090408@mystery.lviv.net> <200406021706.22913.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> <003301c454b7$49b89b40$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> <40D22021.8000302@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1087563060.2046.22.camel@Requiem.Redhat.Rumos.pt> Hi David, I believe we have enouth ppl to have the mailing list, if necessary. Either way, lets do it like this.. Lets find a person responsible for it (i can be it, cause a pass a great deal of time away from home, and sometimes without web access), and then everyone interested can mail him. After that whe just have to contact ask Sarah if it can be done.. Everyone's Ok with that ?? On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 23:50, David Barzilay wrote: > Alexandre Costa escreveu: > > >Hi All. How is the progress on Portuguese FC3?? Im going to have a little > >free time in 2 weeks from now. Need any help ? > > > >Cheers > > > >Alexandre Costa, Rumos S.A. RHCE, RHCX > > > > > >-- > >Fedora-trans-list mailing list > >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > > > > Hi Alex, > > Fedora Core 3 is under development, and FC2 is 100% translated to pt > (check http://i18n.brisbane.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status). > > We haven't a Portuguese mailing list for Fedora translations so far > (although we do have Portuguese people watching the pt_BR mailing list). > If you feel like gathering other 4 people interested on pt translations > in order to start the mailing list, please send an e-mail to > sarahs at redhat.com. > > Regards, From amc at rumos.pt Fri Jun 18 12:55:20 2004 From: amc at rumos.pt (Alexandre Costa) Date: 18 Jun 2004 13:55:20 +0100 Subject: Translation FAQ In-Reply-To: <200406180025.12759.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> <200406021706.22913.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> <003301c454b7$49b89b40$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> <200406180025.12759.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Message-ID: <1087563320.2046.27.camel@Requiem.Redhat.Rumos.pt> Hi Pedro! I'll be most pleased it with. It has been a time, and i believe i must recreate the acount (changed the machine), and then i'll try to get the cvs .po files.. If i run into trouble i'll be sure to contact you :) Any way, i'll contact you to get a starting point on it. On Fri, 2004-06-18 at 00:25, Pedro Morais wrote: > Em Quinta, 17 de Junho de 2004 23:06, Alexandre Costa escreveu: > > Hi All. How is the progress on Portuguese FC3?? Im going to have a little > > free time in 2 weeks from now. Need any help ? > > Hi! > As David said, Fedora is 100% translated to pt_PT. > What would be great was if you could proofread the translations. > Contact me if you'd like to help. > Thanks, > Pedro Morais > > > > > Cheers > > > > Alexandre Costa, Rumos S.A. RHCE, RHCX > > > > > > -- > > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From jose.pires at inov.pt Fri Jun 18 10:16:24 2004 From: jose.pires at inov.pt (=?utf-8?q?Jos=C3=A9_Nuno_Coelho_Sanarra_Pires?=) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:16:24 +0100 Subject: Translation FAQ In-Reply-To: <003301c454b7$49b89b40$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> <200406021706.22913.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> <003301c454b7$49b89b40$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Message-ID: <200406181116.24199.jose.pires@inov.pt> Em Quinta, 17 de Junho de 2004 23:06, o Alexandre Costa escreveu: > Hi All. How is the progress on Portuguese FC3?? Im going to have a little > free time in 2 weeks from now. Need any help ? As far as we can see on the next Web page, our status for FC3 still is 100% translated http://carolina.mff.cuni.cz/~trmac/fedora-i18n.html However, there is still the need to proofread the PO files. Do you think you can manage that for now. I could gladly help you but, at the moment, my focus is totally at KDE 3.x documentation translation. That evolves lots of work, but we are at 87% for translated documentation (KDE 3.2) and about 70% for KDE 3.3. Hopefully, maybe KDE 3.3 will be the first release to be 100% translated for European Portuguese (apps and docs). When I get some free time, I'll help you. Just keep us informed about the modules you're checking. Do you still have access to the CVS repository, don't you? Best regards and best luck :) > > Cheers > > Alexandre Costa, Rumos S.A. RHCE, RHCX > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list -- Jos? Nuno Coelho Pires Development Engineer INESC-INOV Telem?vel: 96 630 61 13 E-Mail: jose.pires at inov.pt From xamc at rumos.pt Sun Jun 20 16:55:01 2004 From: xamc at rumos.pt (Alexandre Costa) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:55:01 +0100 Subject: Translation FAQ References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com> <40BDF654.3090408@mystery.lviv.net><200406021706.22913.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt><003301c454b7$49b89b40$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> <40D22021.8000302@redhat.com> <1087563060.2046.22.camel@Requiem.Redhat.Rumos.pt> Message-ID: <001001c456e7$54259600$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Opps.. I mean "I Can't Be It".. Tnx ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexandre Costa" To: "Fedora Translation Project List" Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 1:51 PM Subject: Re: Translation FAQ : Hi David, : : I believe we have enouth ppl to have the mailing list, if necessary. : : Either way, lets do it like this.. : : Lets find a person responsible for it (i can be it, cause a pass a great : deal of time away from home, and sometimes without web access), and then : everyone interested can mail him. After that whe just have to contact : ask Sarah if it can be done.. : : Everyone's Ok with that ?? : : On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 23:50, David Barzilay wrote: : > Alexandre Costa escreveu: : > : > >Hi All. How is the progress on Portuguese FC3?? Im going to have a little : > >free time in 2 weeks from now. Need any help ? : > > : > >Cheers : > > : > >Alexandre Costa, Rumos S.A. RHCE, RHCX : > > : > > : > >-- : > >Fedora-trans-list mailing list : > >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com : > >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list : > > : > > : > Hi Alex, : > : > Fedora Core 3 is under development, and FC2 is 100% translated to pt : > (check http://i18n.brisbane.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status). : > : > We haven't a Portuguese mailing list for Fedora translations so far : > (although we do have Portuguese people watching the pt_BR mailing list). : > If you feel like gathering other 4 people interested on pt translations : > in order to start the mailing list, please send an e-mail to : > sarahs at redhat.com. : > : > Regards, : : : -- : Fedora-trans-list mailing list : Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com : http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From xamc at rumos.pt Sun Jun 20 16:57:15 2004 From: xamc at rumos.pt (Alexandre Costa) Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 17:57:15 +0100 Subject: Translation FAQ References: <40BD5F9C.6000603@redhat.com><200406021706.22913.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt><003301c454b7$49b89b40$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> <200406181116.24199.jose.pires@inov.pt> Message-ID: <001901c456e7$a3ffc920$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Hi Jos?. I can try, but only in a week from now.. I'll have some free time then ! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jos? Nuno Coelho Sanarra Pires" To: "Fedora Translation Project List" Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:16 AM Subject: Re: Translation FAQ Em Quinta, 17 de Junho de 2004 23:06, o Alexandre Costa escreveu: > Hi All. How is the progress on Portuguese FC3?? Im going to have a little > free time in 2 weeks from now. Need any help ? As far as we can see on the next Web page, our status for FC3 still is 100% translated http://carolina.mff.cuni.cz/~trmac/fedora-i18n.html However, there is still the need to proofread the PO files. Do you think you can manage that for now. I could gladly help you but, at the moment, my focus is totally at KDE 3.x documentation translation. That evolves lots of work, but we are at 87% for translated documentation (KDE 3.2) and about 70% for KDE 3.3. Hopefully, maybe KDE 3.3 will be the first release to be 100% translated for European Portuguese (apps and docs). When I get some free time, I'll help you. Just keep us informed about the modules you're checking. Do you still have access to the CVS repository, don't you? Best regards and best luck :) > > Cheers > > Alexandre Costa, Rumos S.A. RHCE, RHCX > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list -- Jos? Nuno Coelho Pires Development Engineer INESC-INOV Telem?vel: 96 630 61 13 E-Mail: jose.pires at inov.pt -- Fedora-trans-list mailing list Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From llch at redhat.com Mon Jun 21 00:26:10 2004 From: llch at redhat.com (Leon Ho) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:26:10 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Fedora-i18n-list] Dutch translators: Bugzilla #125194] Message-ID: <1087777570.2249.13.camel@windcloud.brisbane.redhat.com> Forwarding to fedora-trans as well as it may get more exposures over there. Leon -----Forwarded Message----- From: Alan Cox To: fedora-i18n-list at redhat.com Subject: [Fedora-i18n-list] Dutch translators: Bugzilla #125194 Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:00:06 -0400 Can the Dutch translators please review bug #125194 and either close it or check it into the i18n cvs ? Thanks Alan -- https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=125194 >From Bugzilla Helper: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4.1) Gecko/20031114 Description of problem: A few times "skipped" is mistranslated as "overgeslaan" in the Dutch translation. This is not correct in Dutch, it should be "overgeslagen". Will attach a patch that fixes this. -- Fedora-i18n-list mailing list Fedora-i18n-list at redhat.com http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-i18n-list From sarahs at redhat.com Mon Jun 21 00:26:33 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 10:26:33 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: [Fedora-i18n-list] Dutch translators: Bugzilla #125194] Message-ID: <1087777592.2475.0.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Alan Cox Subject: [Fedora-i18n-list] Dutch translators: Bugzilla #125194 Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:00:06 -0400 Size: 3662 URL: From a.t.meinen at chello.nl Mon Jun 21 07:46:24 2004 From: a.t.meinen at chello.nl (Tino Meinen) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:46:24 +0200 Subject: [Fwd: [Fedora-i18n-list] Dutch translators: Bugzilla #125194] In-Reply-To: <1087777592.2475.0.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1087777592.2475.0.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1087803984.4665.23.camel@a141159.upc-a.chello.nl> The changes are committed, The bug can be closed now. Tino Meinen Op ma 21-06-2004, om 02:26 schreef Sarah Wang: > From: Alan Cox > To: fedora-i18n-list at redhat.com > Subject: [Fedora-i18n-list] Dutch translators: Bugzilla #125194 > Date: Sat, 19 Jun 2004 08:00:06 -0400 > > Can the Dutch translators please review bug #125194 and either close it > or check it into the i18n cvs ? > > Thanks > Alan > > -- > https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=125194 > > >From Bugzilla Helper: > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.4.1) > Gecko/20031114 > > Description of problem: > A few times "skipped" is mistranslated as "overgeslaan" in the Dutch > translation. This is not correct in Dutch, it should be "overgeslagen". > Will attach a patch that fixes this. > From blitz3 at freemail.com.mk Mon Jun 21 10:54:35 2004 From: blitz3 at freemail.com.mk (Blagoja Gjakovski) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:54:35 +0200 Subject: language... References: <200406211243080799.00257389@localhost> Message-ID: <200406211254350756.002FEEF7@localhost> Hi, First, I'm not very experienced in working with CVS. I have a problem with adding anaconda support for Macedonian language. I get the anaconda.pot file from cvs, start to translate, and after that I send it to cvs like mk.po file. There was no problem. The problem occurs when I get the lang-table file from cvs, insert this line for Macedonian support Macedonian mk latarcyrheb-sun16 mk_MK.UTF-8 mk Europe/Skopje mk_MK.UTF-8 and when I try to send it to cvs, an error appears and tells me that this file is not for translation. Can somebody insert this line to lang-table file please? Which other files from anaconda cvs do I have to edit for inserting Macedonian support? Thanks, Blagoja From alan at redhat.com Mon Jun 21 12:48:03 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:48:03 -0400 Subject: German translation item in bugzilla Message-ID: <20040621124803.GA991@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Would the .de translators care to look at https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=62854 and let me know what to do with it From bgroh at redhat.com Tue Jun 22 00:23:50 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:23:50 +1000 Subject: German translation item in bugzilla In-Reply-To: <20040621124803.GA991@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20040621124803.GA991@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40D77C16.5030303@redhat.com> Fixed. Alan Cox schrieb: >Would the .de translators care to look at > >https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=62854 > >and let me know what to do with it > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From sarahs at redhat.com Tue Jun 22 03:15:01 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:15:01 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed Message-ID: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Hello all, The new translation status page has been installed: http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status You will notice that there is a new column called "Availability" for each package. It either says "Finished" (if the translation is 100%) or has a "Take" button (if the translation is not 100%). This feature is designed to minimise the commit conflicts and better coordinate the translation activity within the same language group. If you wish to finish the translation of a package, just click "Take" button, fill in your login and password. Then you will be able to finish and commit the translation to cvs. All cvs account holders should have received or soon to receive information about login name and password. Please feel free to ask if you have any questions and encountered any problems. Regards, Sarah From hutuworm at hutuworm.org Tue Jun 22 05:23:03 2004 From: hutuworm at hutuworm.org (hutuworm) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:23:03 +0800 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed Message-ID: <200406220523.i5M5NCXn028536@mx3.redhat.com> Sarah Wang, I've taken anaconda/po/zh_CN.po on the web, but... [root at hutuworm anaconda]# cvs ci -m "update by hutuworm @ 20040621" zh_CN.po Testing zh_CN.po... [anaconda/po/zh_CN.po] is not assigned to you. **** Access allowed: hutuworm is in ACL for anaconda/po. cvs server: Pre-commit check failed cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! ======= 2004-06-22 11:15:01 Quote from your mail ======= >Hello all, > >The new translation status page has been installed: >http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status > >You will notice that there is a new column called "Availability" for >each package. It either says "Finished" (if the translation is 100%) or >has a "Take" button (if the translation is not 100%). This feature is >designed to minimise the commit conflicts and better coordinate the >translation activity within the same language group. If you wish to >finish the translation of a package, just click "Take" button, fill in >your login and password. Then you will be able to finish and commit the >translation to cvs. All cvs account holders should have received or soon >to receive information about login name and password. > >Please feel free to ask if you have any questions and encountered any >problems. > >Regards, >Sarah > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > >. ================================================== hutuworm From kamthorn_k at yahoo.com Tue Jun 22 05:27:29 2004 From: kamthorn_k at yahoo.com (Kamthorn Krairaksa) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406220523.i5M5NCXn028536@mx3.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040622052729.73464.qmail@web41507.mail.yahoo.com> --- hutuworm wrote: > Sarah Wang, > > I've taken anaconda/po/zh_CN.po on the web, but... > > [root at hutuworm anaconda]# cvs ci -m "update by hutuworm @ 20040621" > zh_CN.po > Testing zh_CN.po... > [anaconda/po/zh_CN.po] is not assigned to you. > **** Access allowed: hutuworm is in ACL for anaconda/po. > cvs server: Pre-commit check failed > cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! > me too [kamthorn at rdi1-kamthorn firstboot]$ cvs commit cvs commit: Examining . Testing th.po... [firstboot/po/th.po] is not assigned to you. **** Access allowed: kamkrai is in ACL for firstboot/po. cvs server: Pre-commit check failed cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! -- Kamthorn Krairaksa From mr700 at globalnet.bg Tue Jun 22 06:37:00 2004 From: mr700 at globalnet.bg (Doncho N. Gunchev) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:37:00 +0300 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406220937.00758@-mr700> On Tuesday 22 June 2004 06:15, Sarah Wang wrote: > Hello all, > > The new translation status page has been installed: > http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status > > You will notice that there is a new column called "Availability" for > each package. It either says "Finished" (if the translation is 100%) or > has a "Take" button (if the translation is not 100%). This feature is > designed to minimise the commit conflicts and better coordinate the > translation activity within the same language group. If you wish to > finish the translation of a package, just click "Take" button, fill in > your login and password. Then you will be able to finish and commit the > translation to cvs. All cvs account holders should have received or soon > to receive information about login name and password. > > Please feel free to ask if you have any questions and encountered any > problems. > > Regards, > Sarah I checked http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status and saw that system-switch-mail is 100% untranslated, so I took it. After this I did cvs -z9 up translate ... cvs server: Updating translate/redhat-switchmail P translate/redhat-switchmail/ta.po cvs server: Updating translate/rhgb ... Which shows that the Bulgarian translation (bg.po) has not been updated at least two months. When I opend translate/redhat-switchmail/bg.po I saw it was fully translated by Boril Gourinov [ boril bitex com ], and was last changed Mar 16. Where's the problem? Can someone unassign this? How often is i18n-status updated? (I refreshed the page many times) -- Regards, Doncho N. Gunchev Registered Linux User #291323 at counter.li.org GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/DA454F79 Key fingerprint = 684F 688B C508 C609 0371 5E0F A089 CB15 DA45 4F79 From sp at elte.hu Tue Jun 22 07:33:19 2004 From: sp at elte.hu (Sulyok Peti) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 09:33:19 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> 2004-06-22, k keltez?ssel 05:15-kor Sarah Wang ezt ?rta: > Hello all, > > The new translation status page has been installed: > http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status > > You will notice that there is a new column called "Availability" for > each package. It either says "Finished" (if the translation is 100%) or > has a "Take" button (if the translation is not 100%). This feature is > designed to minimise the commit conflicts and better coordinate the > translation activity within the same language group. If you wish to > finish the translation of a package, just click "Take" button, fill in > your login and password. Then you will be able to finish and commit the > translation to cvs. All cvs account holders should have received or soon > to receive information about login name and password. My opinion is that conflicts should be resolved according to the docs of CVS. By using this take-over tech. teamwork has to be done outside CVS, or by using another CVS repository. This might be painful for teams working on the large PO files like dist and anaconda. Regards, Peti -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ez az ?zenetr?sz digit?lis al??r?ssal van ell?tva URL: From sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com Tue Jun 22 07:37:34 2004 From: sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com (Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:37:34 +0800 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40D7E1BE.3040709@myrealbox.com> I updated my CVS tree, and realized that the anaconda po file was 100% translated, but the status page stated that it got 16 fuzzy and 13 untranslated. Expecting that my tree is messed up like last time, I rename my tree and tried to checkout fresh. This is Cervisia error message: -------------------------- cd /cvs/redhat/ && cvs -f -d :ext:arclynx at elvis.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS checkout -P translate elvis.redhat.com: Connection timed out cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages if any) [Exited with status 1] -------------------------- Is it really connection timeout or the CVSROOT has changed? Thank you. Sarah Wang wrote: > Hello all, > > The new translation status page has been installed: > http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status > > You will notice that there is a new column called "Availability" for > each package. It either says "Finished" (if the translation is 100%) or > has a "Take" button (if the translation is not 100%). This feature is > designed to minimise the commit conflicts and better coordinate the > translation activity within the same language group. If you wish to > finish the translation of a package, just click "Take" button, fill in > your login and password. Then you will be able to finish and commit the > translation to cvs. All cvs account holders should have received or soon > to receive information about login name and password. > > Please feel free to ask if you have any questions and encountered any > problems. > > Regards, > Sarah > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > -- ----- Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan From sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com Tue Jun 22 07:44:54 2004 From: sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com (Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:44:54 +0800 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> Message-ID: <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> Sulyok Peti wrote: > My opinion is that conflicts should be resolved according to the docs of > CVS. By using this take-over tech. teamwork has to be done outside CVS, > or by using another CVS repository. This might be painful for teams > working on the large PO files like dist and anaconda. > > Regards, > Peti Agreed. Previously, I and another Malay translator working together with anaconda totally using CVS. No issue about take over. Both updates their own tree and resolve any conflict prior to committing new translation. It works well and we manage to complete it before FC2 release. I don't see the benefit of the take over mechanism here. Can anybody explain? Thanks. ----- Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan From rahal at arabeyes.org Tue Jun 22 08:27:12 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:27:12 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 22 June 2004 05:15, Sarah Wang wrote: [...] > Please feel free to ask if you have any questions and encountered any > problems. Hi, On the status page for each translated PO file, there's a field 'Translator' which is not clear. I understand that 'Last translator' is grabbed from the PO file (and I checked that the names there are OK regarding Arabic translation). However, for dist.po I'm not sure how the fields are filled. I simply don't know the person whose name is put under 'Translator' nor that he ever participated in translation ? :-) Since he has a redhat email, i suppose this is some quality control ??! http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status?page=module&locale=ar&module=dist&referrer=status&branch=HEAD&essential=0 Please note that this is only for incomplete files. Finished files have the field 'Translator' empty. Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA1+1kHDRR6Cd0eSYRAsOGAKDppea84ttqPYktqQ8ucpiIEKMqfwCdHRdk A59LaC9clFllCmHxMUOACZs= =v5Io -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com Tue Jun 22 08:32:38 2004 From: sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com (Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:32:38 +0800 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D7E1BE.3040709@myrealbox.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <40D7E1BE.3040709@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <40D7EEA6.7070907@myrealbox.com> Hello. Please ignore my previous email. My CVS tree really messed up, and Cervisia look like don't want to checkout the module properly. I checkout the module using command line, then asking Cervisia to check for update. Weird things do happen sometimes :) Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan wrote: > I updated my CVS tree, and realized that the anaconda po file was 100% > translated, but the status page stated that it got 16 fuzzy and 13 > untranslated. > > Expecting that my tree is messed up like last time, I rename my tree and > tried to checkout fresh. > > This is Cervisia error message: > > -------------------------- > cd /cvs/redhat/ && cvs -f -d > :ext:arclynx at elvis.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS checkout -P translate > > elvis.redhat.com: Connection timed out > > cvs [checkout aborted]: end of file from server (consult above messages > if any) > > [Exited with status 1] > -------------------------- > > Is it really connection timeout or the CVSROOT has changed? > > Thank you. > ----- Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan From hutuworm at hutuworm.org Tue Jun 22 08:47:52 2004 From: hutuworm at hutuworm.org (hutuworm) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:47:52 +0800 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed Message-ID: <200406220847.i5M8lpe1007491@mx1.redhat.com> hutuworm, OK now. Thanks. :) [root at hutuworm anaconda]# cvs ci -m "update by hutuworm @ 20040621" zh_CN.po Testing zh_CN.po... **** Access allowed: hutuworm is in ACL for anaconda/po. Checking in zh_CN.po; /usr/local/CVS/anaconda/po/zh_CN.po,v <-- zh_CN.po new revision: 1.67; previous revision: 1.66 done Running syncmail... Mailing anaconda-commits-list at redhat.com... ...syncmail done. ======= 2004-06-22 13:23:00 Quote from your mail ======= >Sarah Wang, > > I've taken anaconda/po/zh_CN.po on the web, but... > >[root at hutuworm anaconda]# cvs ci -m "update by hutuworm @ 20040621" zh_CN.po >Testing zh_CN.po... >[anaconda/po/zh_CN.po] is not assigned to you. >**** Access allowed: hutuworm is in ACL for anaconda/po. >cvs server: Pre-commit check failed >cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! > >======= 2004-06-22 11:15:01 Quote from your mail ======= > >>Hello all, >> >>The new translation status page has been installed: >>http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status >> >>You will notice that there is a new column called "Availability" for >>each package. It either says "Finished" (if the translation is 100%) or >>has a "Take" button (if the translation is not 100%). This feature is >>designed to minimise the commit conflicts and better coordinate the >>translation activity within the same language group. If you wish to >>finish the translation of a package, just click "Take" button, fill in >>your login and password. Then you will be able to finish and commit the >>translation to cvs. All cvs account holders should have received or soon >>to receive information about login name and password. >> >>Please feel free to ask if you have any questions and encountered any >>problems. >> >>Regards, >>Sarah >> >> >>-- >>Fedora-trans-list mailing list >>Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list >> >>. > >================================================== > > >hutuworm > > > ================================================== hutuworm From bgroh at redhat.com Tue Jun 22 09:28:05 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:28:05 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406220847.i5M8lpe1007491@mx1.redhat.com> References: <200406220847.i5M8lpe1007491@mx1.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40D7FBA5.4020105@redhat.com> Sorry 'bout that! Minor initial hickup! All fixed now! :) hutuworm schrieb: >hutuworm, > > OK now. Thanks. :) > >[root at hutuworm anaconda]# cvs ci -m "update by hutuworm @ 20040621" zh_CN.po >Testing zh_CN.po... >**** Access allowed: hutuworm is in ACL for anaconda/po. >Checking in zh_CN.po; >/usr/local/CVS/anaconda/po/zh_CN.po,v <-- zh_CN.po >new revision: 1.67; previous revision: 1.66 >done >Running syncmail... >Mailing anaconda-commits-list at redhat.com... >...syncmail done. > > >======= 2004-06-22 13:23:00 Quote from your mail ======= > > > >>Sarah Wang, >> >> I've taken anaconda/po/zh_CN.po on the web, but... >> >>[root at hutuworm anaconda]# cvs ci -m "update by hutuworm @ 20040621" zh_CN.po >>Testing zh_CN.po... >>[anaconda/po/zh_CN.po] is not assigned to you. >>**** Access allowed: hutuworm is in ACL for anaconda/po. >>cvs server: Pre-commit check failed >>cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! >> >>======= 2004-06-22 11:15:01 Quote from your mail ======= >> >> >> >>>Hello all, >>> >>>The new translation status page has been installed: >>>http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status >>> >>>You will notice that there is a new column called "Availability" for >>>each package. It either says "Finished" (if the translation is 100%) or >>>has a "Take" button (if the translation is not 100%). This feature is >>>designed to minimise the commit conflicts and better coordinate the >>>translation activity within the same language group. If you wish to >>>finish the translation of a package, just click "Take" button, fill in >>>your login and password. Then you will be able to finish and commit the >>>translation to cvs. All cvs account holders should have received or soon >>>to receive information about login name and password. >>> >>>Please feel free to ask if you have any questions and encountered any >>>problems. >>> >>>Regards, >>>Sarah >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Fedora-trans-list mailing list >>>Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >>>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list >>> >>>. >>> >>> >>================================================== >> >> >>hutuworm >> >> >> >> >> > >================================================== > > >hutuworm > > > > > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Tue Jun 22 09:31:01 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:31:01 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40D7FC55.8040401@redhat.com> The translator is the person that is currently translating the file, it will be set to a translator. iff somebody [Take]s the module, otherwise it's blank. Regards, Bernd Youcef Rabah Rahal schrieb: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Tuesday 22 June 2004 05:15, Sarah Wang wrote: > >[...] > > > >>Please feel free to ask if you have any questions and encountered any >>problems. >> >> > >Hi, > >On the status page for each translated PO file, there's a field 'Translator' >which is not clear. I understand that 'Last translator' is grabbed from the >PO file (and I checked that the names there are OK regarding Arabic >translation). > >However, for dist.po I'm not sure how the fields are filled. I simply don't >know the person whose name is put under 'Translator' nor that he ever >participated in translation ? :-) Since he has a redhat email, i suppose this >is some quality control ??! > >http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status?page=module&locale=ar&module=dist&referrer=status&branch=HEAD&essential=0 > >Please note that this is only for incomplete files. Finished files have the >field 'Translator' empty. > >Regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA1+1kHDRR6Cd0eSYRAsOGAKDppea84ttqPYktqQ8ucpiIEKMqfwCdHRdk >A59LaC9clFllCmHxMUOACZs= >=v5Io >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Tue Jun 22 09:38:32 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 19:38:32 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a language, peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In this way, everyone is informed of who is doing what. You only have to [Take] a module once, and then it belongs to you until the translation is finished, or you [Release] it. We believed this mechanism to be extremely helpful. Regards, Bernd Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan schrieb: > Sulyok Peti wrote: > >> My opinion is that conflicts should be resolved according to the docs of >> CVS. By using this take-over tech. teamwork has to be done outside CVS, >> or by using another CVS repository. This might be painful for teams >> working on the large PO files like dist and anaconda. >> Regards, >> Peti > > > Agreed. Previously, I and another Malay translator working together > with anaconda totally using CVS. No issue about take over. Both > updates their own tree and resolve any conflict prior to committing > new translation. It works well and we manage to complete it before FC2 > release. > > I don't see the benefit of the take over mechanism here. Can anybody > explain? > > Thanks. > > ----- > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From hutuworm at hutuworm.org Tue Jun 22 09:45:07 2004 From: hutuworm at hutuworm.org (hutuworm) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:45:07 +0800 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed Message-ID: <200406220945.i5M9jMXn003582@mx3.redhat.com> Bernd Groh, It would be better if the system can release the module automatically after the taken module's translator check in the updated module. :D ======= 2004-06-22 17:38:32 Quote from your mail ======= >If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets >more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a language, >peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In this way, >everyone is informed of who is doing what. You only have to [Take] a >module once, and then it belongs to you until the translation is >finished, or you [Release] it. We believed this mechanism to be >extremely helpful. > >Regards, >Bernd > >Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan schrieb: > >> Sulyok Peti wrote: >> >>> My opinion is that conflicts should be resolved according to the docs of >>> CVS. By using this take-over tech. teamwork has to be done outside CVS, >>> or by using another CVS repository. This might be painful for teams >>> working on the large PO files like dist and anaconda. >>> Regards, >>> Peti >> >> >> Agreed. Previously, I and another Malay translator working together >> with anaconda totally using CVS. No issue about take over. Both >> updates their own tree and resolve any conflict prior to committing >> new translation. It works well and we manage to complete it before FC2 >> release. >> >> I don't see the benefit of the take over mechanism here. Can anybody >> explain? >> >> Thanks. >> >> ----- >> Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan >> >> >> -- >> Fedora-trans-list mailing list >> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > > >-- >Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 >Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 >Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 >Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ > > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > ================================================== hutuworm From rahal at arabeyes.org Tue Jun 22 09:46:37 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:46:37 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D7FC55.8040401@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40D7FC55.8040401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406221146.38622.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 22 June 2004 11:31, Bernd Groh wrote: > The translator is the person that is currently translating the file, it > will be set to a translator. iff somebody [Take]s the module, otherwise > it's blank. If so, then it's obviously an error. Can somebody please fix that ?? Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA1//9HDRR6Cd0eSYRAiRQAJ9SXv8kd2AojJuVp7XynIOGq5HARgCgkXoy XQk8nlll8tH22MGZWVycjUQ= =YPw5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mitr at volny.cz Tue Jun 22 09:47:03 2004 From: mitr at volny.cz (Miloslav Trmac) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 11:47:03 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040622094702.GB19000@chrys.ms.mff.cuni.cz> On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 07:38:32PM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: > If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets > more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a language, > peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In this way, > everyone is informed of who is doing what. You only have to [Take] a > module once, and then it belongs to you until the translation is > finished, or you [Release] it. We believed this mechanism to be > extremely helpful. On the other hand it is just annoying if there is only one or two translators or if you want to commit a one-liner fix to a module "owned" by someone else. Having the mechanism available is definitely useful but maybe it would be easier for everybody not to enforce it for CVS access. Mirek From sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com Tue Jun 22 09:55:55 2004 From: sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com (Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:55:55 +0800 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> Message-ID: <40D8022B.80000@myrealbox.com> Bernd Groh wrote: > If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets > more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a language, > peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In this way, > everyone is informed of who is doing what. You only have to [Take] a > module once, and then it belongs to you until the translation is > finished, or you [Release] it. We believed this mechanism to be > extremely helpful. > > Regards, > Bernd Okay, but what if one of the translator [Take] the module, but left it there untranslated? Can other [Release] the module or it just locked there? If it locked there, can other translator [Kill] the translator, and [Rob] the module? ----- Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan From hutuworm at hutuworm.org Tue Jun 22 10:06:54 2004 From: hutuworm at hutuworm.org (hutuworm) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:06:54 +0800 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed Message-ID: <200406221007.i5MA72Xn006847@mx3.redhat.com> Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan, Set a expire time first, for example 3 hours, if the translator can't check in the updated module in 3 hours, then the [Take] status will be released? ======= 2004-06-22 17:55:55 Quote from your mail ======= >Bernd Groh wrote: >> If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets >> more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a language, >> peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In this way, >> everyone is informed of who is doing what. You only have to [Take] a >> module once, and then it belongs to you until the translation is >> finished, or you [Release] it. We believed this mechanism to be >> extremely helpful. >> >> Regards, >> Bernd > >Okay, but what if one of the translator [Take] the module, but left it >there untranslated? Can other [Release] the module or it just locked there? > >If it locked there, can other translator [Kill] the translator, and >[Rob] the module? > >----- >Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > >. ================================================== hutuworm From josep at imatge-sintetica.com Tue Jun 22 10:25:23 2004 From: josep at imatge-sintetica.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:25:23 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 11:38, Bernd Groh wrote: > If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets > more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a language, > peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In this way, I think we should have been consulted about this change before it was applied, no? Maybe you did and I missed it, sorry! After all, the translation project is a true community effort, and we might have something to say about what's best for us too... > everyone is informed of who is doing what. You only have to [Take] a You can do that with too with translation teams. > module once, and then it belongs to you until the translation is What if it never gets finished? Or never released, or someone else can translate it faster, or if it contains errors? Or if it does't use the same terminology/style as other translations? > finished, or you [Release] it. We believed this mechanism to be > extremely helpful. Maybe it is, but it causes some concern to me. When I joined the translation project for Fedora, I was told to get in contact with the people making the translation of the language I wanted to translate into. That way we would use de _same_ vocabulary, same terms, same style, etc... But with this new system, it will be possible to see more eclectic translations, and might not pass "quality" controls that some translator teams may have. As for our team (10-15 persons), the procedure is basically to assign a module to someone in the team, let him/her translate it, and finally post the translation to our list so everybody can review it, making sure the right terminology is used, and that there are no spelling or grammar errors, etc, and finally we commit it. Even with all this, errors occur, but many are hunted prior to the commit. We solve problems by having a coordinator, and a page with who is translating what, and status, much like your status page, but ours is crappier :) It is true that with the new system this can also be done, but it might not be enforced. On the other hand it restricts the assignment of modules to people using CVS. Just as an example, in our team we have some very good translators that use Windows, and have no idea about CVS or SSH keys, but are very valuable to us. IMHO, I think a better approach is that of the gnome translation project, having a coordinator for a language and making him/her commit the changes, but I believe Christian Rose has more to say if this is the case than I do. And just out of curiosity, are new maintainers automatically subscribed to the translation list at fedora-trans-list at redhat.com? My 2 cents... Regards, /Josep > > Regards, > Bernd > > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan schrieb: > > > Sulyok Peti wrote: > > > >> My opinion is that conflicts should be resolved according to the docs of > >> CVS. By using this take-over tech. teamwork has to be done outside CVS, > >> or by using another CVS repository. This might be painful for teams > >> working on the large PO files like dist and anaconda. > >> Regards, > >> Peti > > > > > > Agreed. Previously, I and another Malay translator working together > > with anaconda totally using CVS. No issue about take over. Both > > updates their own tree and resolve any conflict prior to committing > > new translation. It works well and we manage to complete it before FC2 > > release. > > > > I don't see the benefit of the take over mechanism here. Can anybody > > explain? > > > > Thanks. > > > > ----- > > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan From andrei.nestor at ro.ibm.com Tue Jun 22 10:27:36 2004 From: andrei.nestor at ro.ibm.com (Andrei Nestor) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 13:27:36 +0300 Subject: account update In-Reply-To: <40C8E7E7.40900@redhat.com> Message-ID: Hi RedHat admins, After you (again) deleted my account, I (again) created an account, but I didn't receive the confirmation that it's been re-created, and I can't access cvs (Permission denied (publickey,keyboard-interactive).). However, I received the notice about introducing web-based administration features. That must mean that my account sort of exists, right? So, my question is: what's up with my account? Thanks, Andrei fedora-trans-list-bounces at redhat.com wrote on 06/11/2004 01:59:51 AM: > Done again :) > Sarah > > Andrei Nestor wrote: > > >sorry about this, but could you delete my account again? > >the account name is "dannutz". > > > >thanks! > > > >PS: don't ask. > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >-- > >Fedora-trans-list mailing list > >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > > > > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From alan at redhat.com Tue Jun 22 12:31:08 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:31:08 -0400 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040622123108.GD16069@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 01:15:01PM +1000, Sarah Wang wrote: > each package. It either says "Finished" (if the translation is 100%) or > has a "Take" button (if the translation is not 100%). This feature is > designed to minimise the commit conflicts and better coordinate the > translation activity within the same language group. If you wish to Only two. 1. What if someone needs to take an entry back (eg if someone goes on holiday and forgets) 2. It would be nice if people could grab the current .po file without having to "take" it - you need the other po files in order to make a translation consistent, and in the Welsh case for example it would help the Debian .cy people to see the translations used in Fedora Alan From alan at redhat.com Tue Jun 22 12:46:26 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 08:46:26 -0400 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D7FC55.8040401@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40D7FC55.8040401@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040622124626.GB27750@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 07:31:01PM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: > The translator is the person that is currently translating the file, it > will be set to a translator. iff somebody [Take]s the module, otherwise > it's blank. Just noticed another problem. If your translation is 100% finished but wrong there is no way to take it and fix it as it just shows "Finished" From mr700 at globalnet.bg Tue Jun 22 14:46:57 2004 From: mr700 at globalnet.bg (Doncho N. Gunchev) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 17:46:57 +0300 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406220937.00758@-mr700> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406220937.00758@-mr700> Message-ID: <200406221746.57391@-mr700> On Tuesday 22 June 2004 09:37, Doncho N. Gunchev wrote: > On Tuesday 22 June 2004 06:15, Sarah Wang wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > The new translation status page has been installed: > > http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status > > ... > I checked http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status and saw that > system-switch-mail is 100% untranslated, so I took it... ... I released it, but I still wonder why it shows 0% when it is fully translated? When/how is it updated? -- Regards, Doncho N. Gunchev Registered Linux User #291323 at counter.li.org GPG-Key-ID: 1024D/DA454F79 Key fingerprint = 684F 688B C508 C609 0371 5E0F A089 CB15 DA45 4F79 From sp at elte.hu Tue Jun 22 16:25:27 2004 From: sp at elte.hu (Sulyok Peti) Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:25:27 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1087921526.5107.6.camel@sutty.mshome.net> 2004-06-22, k keltez?ssel 05:15-kor Sarah Wang ezt ?rta: > The new translation status page has been installed: > http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status > > You will notice that there is a new column called "Availability" for > each package. It either says "Finished" (if the translation is 100%) or > has a "Take" button (if the translation is not 100%). This feature is > designed to minimise the commit conflicts and better coordinate the > translation activity within the same language group. If you wish to > finish the translation of a package, just click "Take" button, fill in > your login and password. Then you will be able to finish and commit the > translation to cvs. All cvs account holders should have received or soon Does this take-over mechanism work on finished files? E.g. when somebody wants to correct some recently found typos in a "Finished" translation, is take-over needed and possible? Regards, Peti -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Ez az ?zenetr?sz digit?lis al??r?ssal van ell?tva URL: From menthos at menthos.com Tue Jun 22 22:49:20 2004 From: menthos at menthos.com (Christian Rose) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:49:20 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <1087944558.4669.4086.camel@daim> tis 2004-06-22 klockan 10.27 skrev Youcef Rabah Rahal: > > Please feel free to ask if you have any questions and encountered any > > problems. > > On the status page for each translated PO file, there's a field 'Translator' > which is not clear. I understand that 'Last translator' is grabbed from the > PO file (and I checked that the names there are OK regarding Arabic > translation). > > However, for dist.po I'm not sure how the fields are filled. I simply don't > know the person whose name is put under 'Translator' nor that he ever > participated in translation ? :-) Since he has a redhat email, i suppose this > is some quality control ??! I'm also confused by the "Translator" field. For the anaconda sv.po, it's filled in with a name I've never heard of before. Even worse, this person's e-mail address is a Danish one, and the domain part is a very dirty word in Swedish... Since 2000, I've been working from scratch on doing translations for Red Hat and now Fedora, with the goal of keeping them high quality and 100% for every release. We're currently two persons doing this work, and we've managed to do exactly this for a *lot* of releases by this time. We've recieved quite a lot of positive feedback about the quality, too. Thus it's not really exciting to see that any random bozo can suddenly take over control over a Swedish translation and fill in dirty words. I'm not amused. Christian From bgroh at redhat.com Tue Jun 22 23:43:00 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:43:00 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406221146.38622.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40D7FC55.8040401@redhat.com> <200406221146.38622.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40D8C404.5040201@redhat.com> It's not an error, it's intentional. The translator field states who is currently translating the module. If the module isn't currently assigned to anyone, then, of course, the translator field is blank. Or did you refer to something else? Regards, Bernd Youcef Rabah Rahal schrieb: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Tuesday 22 June 2004 11:31, Bernd Groh wrote: > > > >>The translator is the person that is currently translating the file, it >>will be set to a translator. iff somebody [Take]s the module, otherwise >>it's blank. >> >> > >If so, then it's obviously an error. Can somebody please fix that ?? > >Regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA1//9HDRR6Cd0eSYRAiRQAJ9SXv8kd2AojJuVp7XynIOGq5HARgCgkXoy >XQk8nlll8tH22MGZWVycjUQ= >=YPw5 >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Tue Jun 22 23:51:34 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:51:34 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <20040622094702.GB19000@chrys.ms.mff.cuni.cz> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <20040622094702.GB19000@chrys.ms.mff.cuni.cz> Message-ID: <40D8C606.30008@redhat.com> Miloslav Trmac schrieb: >On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 07:38:32PM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: > > >>If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets >>more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a language, >>peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In this way, >>everyone is informed of who is doing what. You only have to [Take] a >>module once, and then it belongs to you until the translation is >>finished, or you [Release] it. We believed this mechanism to be >>extremely helpful. >> >> >On the other hand it is just annoying if there is only one or two >translators or if you want to commit a one-liner fix to a module "owned" >by someone else. > For the case there's only one or two translators, we can potentially, if desired, exclude these languages from the process. For the case that you simply want to commit a one-liner to a module "owned" by someone else, I strongly disagree. Why? Because if someone is taking a module, that person is starting to translate it (or so it should be). If you fix a one-liner while another person is translating the file, you might just introduce a conflict. >Having the mechanism available is definitely useful but maybe it >would be easier for everybody not to enforce it for CVS access. > Mirek > The reason we introduced it, is because we had a lot of people asking for exactly such mechanism. But I'm happy to discuss the issue, and am not set either way. I simply felt it was the right thing to do. I could have been wrong. Bernd > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Tue Jun 22 23:55:11 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:55:11 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406220945.i5M9jMXn003582@mx3.redhat.com> References: <200406220945.i5M9jMXn003582@mx3.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40D8C6DF.7070407@redhat.com> hutuworm schrieb: >Bernd Groh, > > It would be better if the system can release the module automatically >after the taken module's translator check in the updated module. :D > I think this is subjective. If you commit a module that has been fully translated, the system will release the module automatically. We've decided not to release it if the module isn't fully translated, so the translator wouldn't have to take it more than once if s/he'd intended to fully translate it. But I'm happy to discuss this too. IMO, we should implement what's best for most of us, whatever that may be. Bernd > >======= 2004-06-22 17:38:32 Quote from your mail ======= > > > >>If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets >>more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a language, >>peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In this way, >>everyone is informed of who is doing what. You only have to [Take] a >>module once, and then it belongs to you until the translation is >>finished, or you [Release] it. We believed this mechanism to be >>extremely helpful. >> >>Regards, >>Bernd >> >>Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan schrieb: >> >> >> >>>Sulyok Peti wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>My opinion is that conflicts should be resolved according to the docs of >>>>CVS. By using this take-over tech. teamwork has to be done outside CVS, >>>>or by using another CVS repository. This might be painful for teams >>>>working on the large PO files like dist and anaconda. >>>>Regards, >>>>Peti >>>> >>>> >>>Agreed. Previously, I and another Malay translator working together >>>with anaconda totally using CVS. No issue about take over. Both >>>updates their own tree and resolve any conflict prior to committing >>>new translation. It works well and we manage to complete it before FC2 >>>release. >>> >>>I don't see the benefit of the take over mechanism here. Can anybody >>>explain? >>> >>>Thanks. >>> >>>----- >>>Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Fedora-trans-list mailing list >>>Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >>>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list >>> >>> >> >>-- >>Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 >>Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 >>Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 >>Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ >> >> >> >>-- >>Fedora-trans-list mailing list >>Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list >> >> >> > >================================================== > > >hutuworm > > > > > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Tue Jun 22 23:59:15 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:59:15 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D8022B.80000@myrealbox.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <40D8022B.80000@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <40D8C7D3.7000207@redhat.com> Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan schrieb: > Bernd Groh wrote: > >> If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets >> more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a >> language, peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In >> this way, everyone is informed of who is doing what. You only have to >> [Take] a module once, and then it belongs to you until the >> translation is finished, or you [Release] it. We believed this >> mechanism to be extremely helpful. >> >> Regards, >> Bernd > > > Okay, but what if one of the translator [Take] the module, but left it > there untranslated? Can other [Release] the module or it just locked > there? > > If it locked there, can other translator [Kill] the translator, and > [Rob] the module? If a translator does that, *I* want to know it, and then I'll release it and send this translator a "friendly" reminder. To auto-release it after a certain time of inactivity is on the ToDo list, btw, and these incremental upgrades shouldn't take as long as putting the new version up in the first place! :) Bernd > > > ----- > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 00:19:35 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:19:35 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> Message-ID: <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> Josep Puigdemont schrieb: >On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 11:38, Bernd Groh wrote: > > >>If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets >>more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a language, >>peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In this way, >> >> > >I think we should have been consulted about this change before it was >applied, no? Maybe you did and I missed it, sorry! After all, the >translation project is a true community effort, and we might have >something to say about what's best for us too... > I did this on request from a lot of people within the community, and I believed their reasoning to be very valid. >>everyone is informed of who is doing what. You only have to [Take] a >> >> > >You can do that with too with translation teams. > Of course you can, we simply agreed with a lot of the people from within the community, that it would be a very useful mechanism. > > >>module once, and then it belongs to you until the translation is >> >> > >What if it never gets finished? Or never released, or someone else can >translate it faster, or if it contains errors? Or if it does't use the >same terminology/style as other translations? > If it doesn't get finished in time, we'll release it. If somone else can translate it faster, so what? And I don't think all the other problems are to be associated with the new system, you have the same problems without it. > > > >>finished, or you [Release] it. We believed this mechanism to be >>extremely helpful. >> >> > >Maybe it is, but it causes some concern to me. >When I joined the translation project for Fedora, I was told to get in >contact with the people making the translation of the language I wanted >to translate into. That way we would use de _same_ vocabulary, same >terms, same style, etc... But with this new system, it will be possible >to see more eclectic translations, and might not pass "quality" controls >that some translator teams may have. > Why? Why does the new system keep you from communicating with other translators in your language? > > As for our team (10-15 persons), the procedure is basically to assign >a module to someone in the team, let him/her translate it, and finally >post the translation to our list so everybody can review it, making sure >the right terminology is used, and that there are no spelling or grammar >errors, etc, and finally we commit it. Even with all this, errors occur, >but many are hunted prior to the commit. We solve problems by having a >coordinator, and a page with who is translating what, and status, much >like your status page, but ours is crappier :) > >It is true that with the new system this can also be done, but it might >not be enforced. > Who is actually commiting the files? Only the coordinator? >On the other hand it restricts the assignment of modules to people using >CVS. Just as an example, in our team we have some very good translators >that use Windows, and have no idea about CVS or SSH keys, but are very >valuable to us. > Who is commiting their files? >IMHO, I think a better approach is that of the gnome translation >project, having a coordinator for a language and making him/her commit >the changes, but I believe Christian Rose has more to say if this is the >case than I do. > The new system has the option of a maintainer. I can simply set the coordinator the maintainer of all modules of a certain language, and this maintainer then has full access to the cvs for that language. In how is that different to what gnome is doing? Nobody keeps only one person from commiting. We simply disallow two non-maintainers from commiting at the same time. >And just out of curiosity, are new maintainers automatically subscribed >to the translation list at fedora-trans-list at redhat.com? > No. Regards, Bernd > >My 2 cents... > >Regards, > >/Josep > > > >>Regards, >>Bernd >> >>Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan schrieb: >> >> >> >>>Sulyok Peti wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>My opinion is that conflicts should be resolved according to the docs of >>>>CVS. By using this take-over tech. teamwork has to be done outside CVS, >>>>or by using another CVS repository. This might be painful for teams >>>>working on the large PO files like dist and anaconda. >>>>Regards, >>>>Peti >>>> >>>> >>>Agreed. Previously, I and another Malay translator working together >>>with anaconda totally using CVS. No issue about take over. Both >>>updates their own tree and resolve any conflict prior to committing >>>new translation. It works well and we manage to complete it before FC2 >>>release. >>> >>>I don't see the benefit of the take over mechanism here. Can anybody >>>explain? >>> >>>Thanks. >>> >>>----- >>>Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan >>> >>> > > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 00:28:33 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:28:33 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <20040622123108.GD16069@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <20040622123108.GD16069@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40D8CEB1.2050100@redhat.com> Alan Cox schrieb: >On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 01:15:01PM +1000, Sarah Wang wrote: > > >>each package. It either says "Finished" (if the translation is 100%) or >>has a "Take" button (if the translation is not 100%). This feature is >>designed to minimise the commit conflicts and better coordinate the >>translation activity within the same language group. If you wish to >> >> > >Only two. > >1. What if someone needs to take an entry back (eg if someone goes on >holiday and forgets) > Do you mean if somebody takes a module and forgets about it? The designated maintainer of a module, Sarah, and myself can release a module. Since we haven't assigned any maintainers yet, it's just us two. The next upgrade will release them automatically after a certain period of non-commit. For now, emailing this list and telling us will have to do. >2. It would be nice if people could grab the current .po file without >having to "take" it - you need the other po files in order to make a >translation consistent, and in the Welsh case for example it would help >the Debian .cy people to see the translations used in Fedora > What do you mean with grab? For the purpose of modification? What if you do that while somebody else is in the process of translating the module? Everyone can just grab the module anytime, they just can't commit unconditional. Bernd > >Alan > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 00:31:00 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:31:00 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <20040622124626.GB27750@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40D7FC55.8040401@redhat.com> <20040622124626.GB27750@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40D8CF44.7000304@redhat.com> Alan Cox schrieb: >On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 07:31:01PM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: > > >>The translator is the person that is currently translating the file, it >>will be set to a translator. iff somebody [Take]s the module, otherwise >>it's blank. >> >> > >Just noticed another problem. If your translation is 100% finished but wrong >there is no way to take it and fix it as it just shows "Finished" > If it's finished, everyone of that language group can commit to it. 99% of all conflicts we get with files that aren't finished, so we thought that to be reasonable. Bernd > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 00:31:52 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:31:52 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406221746.57391@-mr700> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406220937.00758@-mr700> <200406221746.57391@-mr700> Message-ID: <40D8CF78.5040703@redhat.com> Try a fresh checkout, just in case. Bernd Doncho N. Gunchev schrieb: >On Tuesday 22 June 2004 09:37, Doncho N. Gunchev wrote: > > >>On Tuesday 22 June 2004 06:15, Sarah Wang wrote: >> >> >>>Hello all, >>> >>>The new translation status page has been installed: >>>http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status >>> >>> >>> >... > > >> I checked http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status and saw that >>system-switch-mail is 100% untranslated, so I took it... >> >> >... > I released it, but I still wonder why it shows 0% when it is fully >translated? When/how is it updated? > > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 00:33:38 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:33:38 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1087921526.5107.6.camel@sutty.mshome.net> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087921526.5107.6.camel@sutty.mshome.net> Message-ID: <40D8CFE2.9010600@redhat.com> Sulyok Peti schrieb: >2004-06-22, k keltez?ssel 05:15-kor Sarah Wang ezt ?rta: > > >>The new translation status page has been installed: >>http://elvis.redhat.com/cgi-bin/i18n-status >> >>You will notice that there is a new column called "Availability" for >>each package. It either says "Finished" (if the translation is 100%) or >>has a "Take" button (if the translation is not 100%). This feature is >>designed to minimise the commit conflicts and better coordinate the >>translation activity within the same language group. If you wish to >>finish the translation of a package, just click "Take" button, fill in >>your login and password. Then you will be able to finish and commit the >>translation to cvs. All cvs account holders should have received or soon >> >> > >Does this take-over mechanism work on finished files? >E.g. when somebody wants to correct some recently found typos in a >"Finished" translation, is take-over needed and possible? > As just mentioned in reply to Alan, there is no restriction on finished files, everyone of that language group can still commit to it. > >Regards, >Peti > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 00:55:43 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:55:43 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1087944558.4669.4086.camel@daim> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> <1087944558.4669.4086.camel@daim> Message-ID: <40D8D50F.8080505@redhat.com> Christian Rose schrieb: >tis 2004-06-22 klockan 10.27 skrev Youcef Rabah Rahal: > > >>>Please feel free to ask if you have any questions and encountered any >>>problems. >>> >>> >>On the status page for each translated PO file, there's a field 'Translator' >>which is not clear. I understand that 'Last translator' is grabbed from the >>PO file (and I checked that the names there are OK regarding Arabic >>translation). >> >>However, for dist.po I'm not sure how the fields are filled. I simply don't >>know the person whose name is put under 'Translator' nor that he ever >>participated in translation ? :-) Since he has a redhat email, i suppose this >>is some quality control ??! >> >> > >I'm also confused by the "Translator" field. For the anaconda sv.po, >it's filled in with a name I've never heard of before. Even worse, this >person's e-mail address is a Danish one, and the domain part is a very >dirty word in Swedish... > That would be the person who currently has anaconda assigned. >Since 2000, I've been working from scratch on doing translations for Red >Hat and now Fedora, with the goal of keeping them high quality and 100% >for every release. We're currently two persons doing this work, and >we've managed to do exactly this for a *lot* of releases by this time. >We've recieved quite a lot of positive feedback about the quality, too. > >Thus it's not really exciting to see that any random bozo can suddenly >take over control over a Swedish translation and fill in dirty words. >I'm not amused. > Do you want me to not give someone access because s/he's got a danish email address and the domain name is a dirty word? Regardless of how fluent this person may be in swedish, and how much this person would like to participate? Do you know for a fact that this persons translations are bad? If so, let me know, and I disable this persons access. I understand what you're saying, but I cannot at all agree with it in a general sense. If you wish, I can make you the maintainer of every swedish file, then you will even be notified if anyone commits a swedish file. And while in a few languages it may be reasonable to not just give anyone cvs access, in a lot it isn't, since there is noone who could judge who should have access and who shouldn't. I personally prefer to trust anyone to do the right thing by default, and if they don't, well, let me know. Best Regards, Bernd > > >Christian > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From webmaster at margo.bijoux.nom.br Wed Jun 23 03:49:41 2004 From: webmaster at margo.bijoux.nom.br (Pedro Fernandes Macedo) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 00:49:41 -0300 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> Message-ID: <40D8FDD5.1040607@margo.bijoux.nom.br> Bernd Groh wrote: > I did this on request from a lot of people within the community, and I > believed their reasoning to be very valid. Just to add my opinion, this idea is useful. The pt_BR team was doing something similar using the mailing list and a website and a structure like this saves a lot of work... >> What if it never gets finished? Or never released, or someone else can >> translate it faster, or if it contains errors? Or if it does't use the >> same terminology/style as other translations? >> > > If it doesn't get finished in time, we'll release it. If somone else > can translate it faster, so what? And I don't think all the other > problems are to be associated with the new system, you have the same > problems without it. How will you define the automatic release interval (if you are going to implement this)? One possible problem I can imagine is that when the strings freeze date comes closer , a auto-release should happen faster than during the rest of the development. Maybe a 1 week release interval and a 2 day interval during development phase? > > Why? Why does the new system keep you from communicating with other > translators in your language? > It doesn't.. The only problem I saw is that the pages don't show any details on how to contact the other translators.. Maybe each page could have something like "To contact the X translation team , send a e-mail to fedora-trans-X at redhat dot com." . The only place that mentions the mailing lists is http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/translations/ , so a reminder would be useful... >> >> As for our team (10-15 persons), the procedure is basically to assign >> a module to someone in the team, let him/her translate it, and finally >> post the translation to our list so everybody can review it, making sure >> the right terminology is used, and that there are no spelling or grammar >> errors, etc, and finally we commit it. Even with all this, errors occur, >> but many are hunted prior to the commit. We solve problems by having a >> coordinator, and a page with who is translating what, and status, much >> like your status page, but ours is crappier :) >> >> It is true that with the new system this can also be done, but it might >> not be enforced. >> > > Who is actually commiting the files? Only the coordinator? > Probably. Or any other person who has CVS access. This is probably like what we had on the pt_BR team. Just before the string freeze for FC2 , the creation of cvs accounts was suspended for a time... While a few of the translators (including me) were waiting for an account, one person from the team sent the .po files to the mailing list , we translated and sent it back to him so he could commit the changes. >> And just out of curiosity, are new maintainers automatically subscribed >> to the translation list at fedora-trans-list at redhat.com? >> > > No. It would be interesting if the new mantainers got an e-mail reminding them of the mailing list... Maybe something like "All the changes to the translation system and discussion about translation bugs happen on fedora-trans-list at redhat dot com, so it's reccomended that you join this mailing list , along with the mailing list for your specific translation project , which is fedora-trans-X at redhat dot com" or something like that... -- Pedro Macedo From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 04:07:31 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:07:31 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D8FDD5.1040607@margo.bijoux.nom.br> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> <40D8FDD5.1040607@margo.bijoux.nom.br> Message-ID: <40D90203.3050804@redhat.com> Pedro Fernandes Macedo schrieb: > Bernd Groh wrote: > >> I did this on request from a lot of people within the community, and >> I believed their reasoning to be very valid. > > > Just to add my opinion, this idea is useful. The pt_BR team was doing > something similar using the mailing list and a website and a structure > like this saves a lot of work... Thank you. >>> What if it never gets finished? Or never released, or someone else >>> can >>> translate it faster, or if it contains errors? Or if it does't use the >>> same terminology/style as other translations? >>> >> >> If it doesn't get finished in time, we'll release it. If somone else >> can translate it faster, so what? And I don't think all the other >> problems are to be associated with the new system, you have the same >> problems without it. > > > How will you define the automatic release interval (if you are going > to implement this)? One possible problem I can imagine is that when > the strings freeze date comes closer , a auto-release should happen > faster than during the rest of the development. Maybe a 1 week release > interval and a 2 day interval during development phase? That is a very good question and one of the reasons why I haven't implemented any such thing yet. If the majority of the community agrees that the system should be used, and not that cvs access should be unrestricted, then I believe we should discuss this issue on list. >> Why? Why does the new system keep you from communicating with other >> translators in your language? >> > It doesn't.. The only problem I saw is that the pages don't show any > details on how to contact the other translators.. Maybe each page > could have something like "To contact the X translation team , send a > e-mail to fedora-trans-X at redhat dot com." . The only place that > mentions the mailing lists is > http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/translations/ , so a reminder would > be useful... True. Not every language has a mailing list though, and to find the status pages, you have to go to http://fedora.redhat.com/projects/translations/ too. But I agree that a mailto: to the individual mailing lists (if exist) on the status page for this particular language would be helpful. >>> As for our team (10-15 persons), the procedure is basically to assign >>> a module to someone in the team, let him/her translate it, and finally >>> post the translation to our list so everybody can review it, making >>> sure >>> the right terminology is used, and that there are no spelling or >>> grammar >>> errors, etc, and finally we commit it. Even with all this, errors >>> occur, >>> but many are hunted prior to the commit. We solve problems by having a >>> coordinator, and a page with who is translating what, and status, much >>> like your status page, but ours is crappier :) >>> >>> It is true that with the new system this can also be done, but it might >>> not be enforced. >>> >> >> Who is actually commiting the files? Only the coordinator? >> > Probably. Or any other person who has CVS access. This is probably > like what we had on the pt_BR team. Just before the string freeze for > FC2 , the creation of cvs accounts was suspended for a time... While a > few of the translators (including me) were waiting for an account, one > person from the team sent the .po files to the mailing list , we > translated and sent it back to him so he could commit the changes. The person commiting should then take the module. But if it's a coordinator, and always the same, this person should be a maintainer even. >>> And just out of curiosity, are new maintainers automatically subscribed >>> to the translation list at fedora-trans-list at redhat.com? >>> >> >> No. > > > > It would be interesting if the new mantainers got an e-mail reminding > them of the mailing list... Maybe something like "All the changes to > the translation system and discussion about translation bugs happen on > fedora-trans-list at redhat dot com, so it's reccomended that you join > this mailing list , along with the mailing list for your specific > translation project , which is fedora-trans-X at redhat dot com" or > something like that... Good point, I'd prefer an invite over an automatic subscription. Bernd > > > > -- > Pedro Macedo > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From rahal at arabeyes.org Wed Jun 23 08:01:12 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:01:12 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D8C404.5040201@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406221146.38622.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40D8C404.5040201@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406231001.18098.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Wednesday 23 June 2004 01:43, Bernd Groh wrote: > It's not an error, it's intentional. The translator field states who is > currently translating the module. If the module isn't currently assigned > to anyone, then, of course, the translator field is blank. Or did you > refer to something else? What surprises me the most is that the person has a Redhat email address :-) We (Arabeyes) started Arabic translation from scratch a few months ago, I am the coordinator of the translation team and been sync'ing our CVS with Fedora one all this time, and I can guarantee you (publicly :-) that this person has never participated in translation nor is doing any translation currently. A simple grep in the PO headers will confirm. So again, to me this is an error that needs a fix :-) Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2TjMHDRR6Cd0eSYRAv4xAJ4pxw16EZMWETTerVwML+GQLr867ACg9KDt XXkkNWTPQF7MMA2CFePx8sQ= =QF3H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From andrei.nestor at ro.ibm.com Wed Jun 23 08:07:24 2004 From: andrei.nestor at ro.ibm.com (Andrei Nestor) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:07:24 +0300 Subject: === HELP! === Message-ID: Hello, There seem to be some problems with my cvs account. Although I am able to authenticate into the new system that's been set up, when I do so I get a message saying "Unknown translator: dannutz". I have previously deleted and then re-created my account, and I didn't receive the confirmation message which leads me to believe that my account might be in a strange inactive state. Can anyone help? Thanks, Andrei PS: the account name is "dannutz" From alan at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 13:59:53 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:59:53 -0400 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D8CEB1.2050100@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <20040622123108.GD16069@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <40D8CEB1.2050100@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040623135953.GB30781@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 10:28:33AM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: > What do you mean with grab? For the purpose of modification? What if you To view. > do that while somebody else is in the process of translating the module? > Everyone can just grab the module anytime, they just can't commit I couldn't find any way to download them without a CVS account - as you can for example with the Gnome ones. A button to do that would be great because the .cy translation project isn't just a Fedora project Alan From alan at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 14:01:29 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:01:29 -0400 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D8CFE2.9010600@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087921526.5107.6.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D8CFE2.9010600@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040623140129.GC30781@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 10:33:38AM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: > >E.g. when somebody wants to correct some recently found typos in a > >"Finished" translation, is take-over needed and possible? > > > As just mentioned in reply to Alan, there is no restriction on finished > files, everyone of that language group can still commit to it. I see the logic - although the lack of the take button makes it a bit confusing. I'd prefer to have it in that case too - I can think of examples where you do want to take a 100% translated file (for example normalising terminology). Minor issue anyway From alan at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 14:05:12 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 10:05:12 -0400 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D90203.3050804@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> <40D8FDD5.1040607@margo.bijoux.nom.br> <40D90203.3050804@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040623140512.GD30781@devserv.devel.redhat.com> For the delay I'd like to see breaking working for any time duration but that it a) warned you how long/short the time the previous owner had it b) emailed them or the i18n list with your reason if you did go ahead social pressure should then do the rest 8) From sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com Wed Jun 23 14:15:16 2004 From: sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com (Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:15:16 +0800 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D8FDD5.1040607@margo.bijoux.nom.br> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> <40D8FDD5.1040607@margo.bijoux.nom.br> Message-ID: <40D99074.3030206@myrealbox.com> Pedro Fernandes Macedo wrote: > How will you define the automatic release interval (if you are going to > implement this)? One possible problem I can imagine is that when the > strings freeze date comes closer , a auto-release should happen faster > than during the rest of the development. Maybe a 1 week release interval > and a 2 day interval during development phase? I would prefer 24 hours release on normal development phase and 1 hour on approaching (2 weeks before) deadline. Currently, I'm doing Take, Commit, Release style, where I only take when I'm ready to commit, committing the changes, and then releasing it back after commit. By doing that, other translator will have the opportunity to translate, and it's not totally assigned to me only. ----- Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 21:29:40 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:29:40 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406231001.18098.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406221146.38622.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40D8C404.5040201@redhat.com> <200406231001.18098.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40D9F644.9020904@redhat.com> Youcef Rabah Rahal schrieb: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Hi, > >On Wednesday 23 June 2004 01:43, Bernd Groh wrote: > > > >>It's not an error, it's intentional. The translator field states who is >>currently translating the module. If the module isn't currently assigned >>to anyone, then, of course, the translator field is blank. Or did you >>refer to something else? >> >> > >What surprises me the most is that the person has a Redhat email address :-) > >We (Arabeyes) started Arabic translation from scratch a few months ago, I am >the coordinator of the translation team and been sync'ing our CVS with Fedora >one all this time, and I can guarantee you (publicly :-) that this person has >never participated in translation nor is doing any translation currently. A >simple grep in the PO headers will confirm. > >So again, to me this is an error that needs a fix :-) > Why don't you email Sherif and ask to release the module, as you don't know him? That's not a call I could make. Regards, Bernd > >Regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA2TjMHDRR6Cd0eSYRAv4xAJ4pxw16EZMWETTerVwML+GQLr867ACg9KDt >XXkkNWTPQF7MMA2CFePx8sQ= >=QF3H >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 21:37:03 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:37:03 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <20040623135953.GB30781@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <20040622123108.GD16069@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <40D8CEB1.2050100@redhat.com> <20040623135953.GB30781@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40D9F7FF.9010005@redhat.com> Alan Cox schrieb: >On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 10:28:33AM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: > > >>What do you mean with grab? For the purpose of modification? What if you >> >> > >To view. > > > >>do that while somebody else is in the process of translating the module? >>Everyone can just grab the module anytime, they just can't commit >> >> > >I couldn't find any way to download them without a CVS account - as you >can for example with the Gnome ones. A button to do that would be great because >the .cy translation project isn't just a Fedora project > I see. Noted for the next upgrade. Bernd > >Alan > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 21:39:44 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:39:44 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <20040623140129.GC30781@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087921526.5107.6.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D8CFE2.9010600@redhat.com> <20040623140129.GC30781@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40D9F8A0.5090509@redhat.com> Alan Cox schrieb: >On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 10:33:38AM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: > > >>>E.g. when somebody wants to correct some recently found typos in a >>>"Finished" translation, is take-over needed and possible? >>> >>> >>> >>As just mentioned in reply to Alan, there is no restriction on finished >>files, everyone of that language group can still commit to it. >> >> > >I see the logic - although the lack of the take button makes it a bit >confusing. I'd prefer to have it in that case too - I can think of examples >where you do want to take a 100% translated file (for example normalising >terminology). Minor issue anyway > > True. Maybe we should discuss this on list (everyone that is)? Being a minor issue or not. Bernd > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 21:43:20 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 07:43:20 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <20040623140512.GD30781@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> <40D8FDD5.1040607@margo.bijoux.nom.br> <40D90203.3050804@redhat.com> <20040623140512.GD30781@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40D9F978.7030504@redhat.com> Alan Cox schrieb: >For the delay I'd like to see breaking working for any time duration but >that it > > a) warned you how long/short the time the previous owner had it > b) emailed them or the i18n list with your reason if you did go > ahead > >social pressure should then do the rest 8) > I do like this model, what does everyone else think of it? Bernd > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From rahal at arabeyes.org Wed Jun 23 22:46:14 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:46:14 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D9F644.9020904@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406231001.18098.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40D9F644.9020904@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406240046.20673.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Wednesday 23 June 2004 23:29, Bernd Groh wrote: > Why don't you email Sherif and ask to release the module, as you don't > know him? Indeed, I don't know him. > That's not a call I could make. Sorry, but I don't understand. We are doing all the the translation work (check the recent commits), a new system is installed, a name appear from nowhere and we are supposed to fix the 'bugs' ? :-) Is that reasonable ? I guess the worst thing a volunteer can experience is seeing someone else being credited for his own work. Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2gg6HDRR6Cd0eSYRApieAJ4zvFkQZ4k9mSjjI9clLS2xfxTPBACeN7UT XHzqkjdWhas0QeEUN1XpOso= =9G2p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From blgj at freemail.com.mk Mon Jun 21 10:43:08 2004 From: blgj at freemail.com.mk (Blagoja Gjakovski) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:43:08 +0200 Subject: language... Message-ID: <200406211243080799.00257389@localhost> Hi, First, I'm not very experienced in working with CVS. I have a problem with adding anaconda support for Macedonian language. I get the anaconda.pot file from cvs, start to translate, and after that I send it to cvs like mk.po file. There was no problem. The problem occurs when I get the lang-table file from cvs, insert this line for Macedonian support Macedonian mk latarcyrheb-sun16 mk_MK.UTF-8 mk Europe/Skopje mk_MK.UTF-8 and when I try to send it to cvs, an error appears and tells me that this file is not for translation. Can somebody insert this line to lang-table file please? Which other files from anaconda cvs do I have to edit for inserting Macedonian support? Thanks, Blagoja From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 23:45:35 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:45:35 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406240046.20673.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406231001.18098.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40D9F644.9020904@redhat.com> <200406240046.20673.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40DA161F.7060707@redhat.com> Youcef Rabah Rahal schrieb: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Wednesday 23 June 2004 23:29, Bernd Groh wrote: > > > >>Why don't you email Sherif and ask to release the module, as you don't >>know him? >> >> > >Indeed, I don't know him. > And that should be reason for me to disable this persons access? Because you don't know him? >>That's not a call I could make. >> >> > >Sorry, but I don't understand. We are doing all the the translation work >(check the recent commits), a new system is installed, a name appear from >nowhere and we are supposed to fix the 'bugs' ? :-) > So far, you've only told me you don't know him, you haven't told me that this person is producing bugs you need to fix, and how should I know if you don't tell me? Is that the case? Is that person actually messing up translations and producing 'bugs'? If so, let me know, and I'll have a word with him, and if required disable his access. But I'm not going to do that just because you don't know him. >Is that reasonable ? > IMO, yes. >I guess the worst thing a volunteer can experience is seeing someone else >being credited for his own work. > If you are the coordinator, and hold the majority of commits, then you do have the option of becoming a maintainer. If you chose to do so, you are in a position to release the module from the current translator and make it available again. If you want to put yourself into that position, that is fine with me, but *I* am not going to disallow somebody to participate, because somebody else doesn't know him (or her for that matter). Question remains, do you know for a fact that this person is producing 'bugs'? Best Regards, Bernd > >Regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA2gg6HDRR6Cd0eSYRApieAJ4zvFkQZ4k9mSjjI9clLS2xfxTPBACeN7UT >XHzqkjdWhas0QeEUN1XpOso= >=9G2p >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Wed Jun 23 23:50:53 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:50:53 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D99074.3030206@myrealbox.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> <40D8FDD5.1040607@margo.bijoux.nom.br> <40D99074.3030206@myrealbox.com> Message-ID: <40DA175D.4090503@redhat.com> Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan schrieb: > Pedro Fernandes Macedo wrote: > >> How will you define the automatic release interval (if you are going >> to implement this)? One possible problem I can imagine is that when >> the strings freeze date comes closer , a auto-release should happen >> faster than during the rest of the development. Maybe a 1 week >> release interval and a 2 day interval during development phase? > > > I would prefer 24 hours release on normal development phase and 1 hour > on approaching (2 weeks before) deadline. I believe 24 hours on normal development is acceptable, since you should do a commit overnight, even if you haven't finished. > Currently, I'm doing Take, Commit, Release style, where I only take > when I'm ready to commit, committing the changes, and then releasing > it back after commit. By doing that, other translator will have the > opportunity to translate, and it's not totally assigned to me only. The use I intended was that first, you check the status pages for availability of a module. If it is available, and you intend to translate it, you take it. Then you do a cvs up, to make sure you're up to date. Then you work on it for as long as you wish, do a commit, and release it again if you don't intend to keep working on it for a while. If you change your mind and you don't intend to work on it anymore, release it straight away. If you only take it before you do a commit, you leave a lot of room for conflicts. Bernd > > > ----- > Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 00:57:23 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 02:57:23 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40DA161F.7060707@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406240046.20673.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DA161F.7060707@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406240257.29832.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 01:45, Bernd Groh wrote: > And that should be reason for me to disable this persons access? Because > you don't know him? What's the point of having a coordinator if he/she has no control over the team ? :) Anyone can come, take over a module and commit. We are already translating many projects: KDE, GNOME, Debian, Mandrake... and we need to keep consistency and do quality control (please visit arabeyes.org for more info). So yes, knowing who is translating what is absolutely needed. > So far, you've only told me you don't know him, you haven't told me that > this person is producing bugs you need to fix, and how should I know if > you don't tell me? Is that the case? Is that person actually messing up > translations and producing 'bugs'? If so, let me know, and I'll have a > word with him, and if required disable his access. But I'm not going to > do that just because you don't know him. Sorry, seems like there's a misunderstand here. I didn't say the person is producting bugs, I called 'bug' the fact that I clicked on dist.po and found his name there, without knowing how it arrived there :-) What I said is that he never paticipated nor he is paticipating so why his name should be there ? (please take a look at the PO headers). If I understand well, i won't be able to commit as long as he is the 'Translator', right ? I'll probably have to commit by the end of this week, as I usually do (sync'ing repositories). So I won't be able to do so then ? > If you are the coordinator, and hold the majority of commits, then you > do have the option of becoming a maintainer. If you chose to do so, you > are in a position to release the module from the current translator and > make it available again. If you want to put yourself into that position, > that is fine with me, but *I* am not going to disallow somebody to > participate, because somebody else doesn't know him (or her for that > matter). Question remains, do you know for a fact that this person is > producing 'bugs'? Yep, I am the coordinator. And I did not do the majority of commits but _all_ of them (there was 7 strings translated when we started, proably some tests). I sent a request to become the maintainer. I hope I'll have an answer soon :-) If that resolves the problem then OK. What about the 'human factor' though ? I mean, everyone (or the majority) on this list know that I'm the coordinator of the Arabic translation. Even if I don't post often on the list, I send updates from time to time (when we started translation, when we did a good deal of work, when we asked for inclusion in FC2...). Everything is in the mailing list archives, in the PO headers, in the CVS logs... For me, that human factor should facilitate resolving such issues, rather than dealing with an automatic interface. If someone is publicly known to be the coordinator, so why should he/she go through all this process ? Can anyone please confirm ? :-) Sarah ? Kind regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2ib4HDRR6Cd0eSYRAiWhAJ9403BhqJ17qB89iuJ4b2jHO9bXDACgpqDE BQFdkpMMQ75OfRueau8dHMU= =nElG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Thu Jun 24 03:26:59 2004 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:26:59 -0400 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406240257.29832.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406240046.20673.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DA161F.7060707@redhat.com> <200406240257.29832.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: Hi Youcef, I can indeed confirm that you have been involved in the Arabic translation thing, but what you are missing here is that the Fedora translation project has no coordinator, no maintainer. Ok? You can't just jump up and say "I am the coordinator." If someone's making troubles for you as a contributor, then Red Hat people would love to help you resolve the problem, but before that, you are simply not different from any other possible contributor which may show up at any time. So please understand, unlike many other project, this one's not about human factor, credits, blah blah. PO headers are not about that either, because they just document the *last* translator. It's not about credit. You did all the translation, thank you; you're welcome. That's all. behdad (who has not done any translation on Fedora [yet]) On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Youcef Rabah Rahal wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thursday 24 June 2004 01:45, Bernd Groh wrote: > > > And that should be reason for me to disable this persons access? Because > > you don't know him? > > What's the point of having a coordinator if he/she has no control over the > team ? :) Anyone can come, take over a module and commit. We are already > translating many projects: KDE, GNOME, Debian, Mandrake... and we need to > keep consistency and do quality control (please visit arabeyes.org for more > info). So yes, knowing who is translating what is absolutely needed. > > > So far, you've only told me you don't know him, you haven't told me that > > this person is producing bugs you need to fix, and how should I know if > > you don't tell me? Is that the case? Is that person actually messing up > > translations and producing 'bugs'? If so, let me know, and I'll have a > > word with him, and if required disable his access. But I'm not going to > > do that just because you don't know him. > > Sorry, seems like there's a misunderstand here. I didn't say the person is > producting bugs, I called 'bug' the fact that I clicked on dist.po and found > his name there, without knowing how it arrived there :-) What I said is that > he never paticipated nor he is paticipating so why his name should be there ? > (please take a look at the PO headers). > > If I understand well, i won't be able to commit as long as he is the > 'Translator', right ? I'll probably have to commit by the end of this week, > as I usually do (sync'ing repositories). So I won't be able to do so then ? > > > If you are the coordinator, and hold the majority of commits, then you > > do have the option of becoming a maintainer. If you chose to do so, you > > are in a position to release the module from the current translator and > > make it available again. If you want to put yourself into that position, > > that is fine with me, but *I* am not going to disallow somebody to > > participate, because somebody else doesn't know him (or her for that > > matter). Question remains, do you know for a fact that this person is > > producing 'bugs'? > > Yep, I am the coordinator. And I did not do the majority of commits but _all_ > of them (there was 7 strings translated when we started, proably some tests). > I sent a request to become the maintainer. I hope I'll have an answer > soon :-) If that resolves the problem then OK. What about the 'human factor' > though ? I mean, everyone (or the majority) on this list know that I'm the > coordinator of the Arabic translation. Even if I don't post often on the > list, I send updates from time to time (when we started translation, when we > did a good deal of work, when we asked for inclusion in FC2...). Everything > is in the mailing list archives, in the PO headers, in the CVS logs... > > For me, that human factor should facilitate resolving such issues, rather than > dealing with an automatic interface. If someone is publicly known to be the > coordinator, so why should he/she go through all this process ? > > Can anyone please confirm ? :-) Sarah ? > > Kind regards, > > - -- > Youcef R. Rahal > Arabeyes.org > http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFA2ib4HDRR6Cd0eSYRAiWhAJ9403BhqJ17qB89iuJ4b2jHO9bXDACgpqDE > BQFdkpMMQ75OfRueau8dHMU= > =nElG > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > --behdad behdad.org From bgroh at redhat.com Thu Jun 24 04:21:17 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:21:17 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406240257.29832.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406240046.20673.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DA161F.7060707@redhat.com> <200406240257.29832.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40DA56BD.3060706@redhat.com> Youcef Rabah Rahal schrieb: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Thursday 24 June 2004 01:45, Bernd Groh wrote: > > > >>And that should be reason for me to disable this persons access? Because >>you don't know him? >> >> > >What's the point of having a coordinator if he/she has no control over the >team ? :) > Being a coordinator isn't about having control, or is it now? ;) > Anyone can come, take over a module and commit. We are already >translating many projects: KDE, GNOME, Debian, Mandrake... and we need to >keep consistency and do quality control (please visit arabeyes.org for more >info). So yes, knowing who is translating what is absolutely needed. > Completely agree. >>So far, you've only told me you don't know him, you haven't told me that >>this person is producing bugs you need to fix, and how should I know if >>you don't tell me? Is that the case? Is that person actually messing up >>translations and producing 'bugs'? If so, let me know, and I'll have a >>word with him, and if required disable his access. But I'm not going to >>do that just because you don't know him. >> >> > >Sorry, seems like there's a misunderstand here. I didn't say the person is >producting bugs, I called 'bug' the fact that I clicked on dist.po and found >his name there, without knowing how it arrived there :-) > Well, it arrived there, because this person clicked on [Take], and no, it is not a bug. :) > What I said is that >he never paticipated nor he is paticipating so why his name should be there ? >(please take a look at the PO headers). > Given that he has taken a module, I'd say he *is* participating. And as Behdad said, PO-Headers aren't all conclusive, but even if that person had never done any translations before, why say he can't? What is wrong with somebody wanting to participate? >If I understand well, i won't be able to commit as long as he is the >'Translator', right ? I'll probably have to commit by the end of this week, >as I usually do (sync'ing repositories). So I won't be able to do so then ? > You won't be able to commit dist (or specspo), but you can commit everything else. Have you already translated dist? If so, let Sherif know, and ask him to release the module, I'm sure he'd be helpful. If you chose not to do so, I am not going to help you. I am not going to kick him off, just because you don't know him, as I've stated previously. >>If you are the coordinator, and hold the majority of commits, then you >>do have the option of becoming a maintainer. If you chose to do so, you >>are in a position to release the module from the current translator and >>make it available again. If you want to put yourself into that position, >>that is fine with me, but *I* am not going to disallow somebody to >>participate, because somebody else doesn't know him (or her for that >>matter). Question remains, do you know for a fact that this person is >>producing 'bugs'? >> >> > >Yep, I am the coordinator. And I did not do the majority of commits but _all_ >of them (there was 7 strings translated when we started, proably some tests). > You did all of the commits, but I assume not all of the translations, or? So why do you believe you have the right to say that Sherif cannot do any Arabic translations? Why don't you, even after I told you you should, send him an email, but instead tell me that him translating the module is a 'bug' and I should fix it? It is not a bug, he's an Arabic translator, just like you. He might not have known there is a very active Arabic group, he might not even be subscribed to this mailing list, so, why not email him and ask him to participate in your group? IMO, that's what a coordinator should do. On a side note, do you believe the other arabic translators get enough credit? >I sent a request to become the maintainer. I hope I'll have an answer >soon :-) If that resolves the problem then OK. What about the 'human factor' >though ? I mean, everyone (or the majority) on this list know that I'm the >coordinator of the Arabic translation. Even if I don't post often on the >list, I send updates from time to time (when we started translation, when we >did a good deal of work, when we asked for inclusion in FC2...). Everything >is in the mailing list archives, in the PO headers, in the CVS logs... > So? Does that mean you decide on who is allowed to contribute to the Arabic translations and who isn't? >For me, that human factor should facilitate resolving such issues, rather than >dealing with an automatic interface. If someone is publicly known to be the >coordinator, so why should he/she go through all this process ? > I didn't know you were the Arabic coordinator, neither it seems like Sherif or Behdad knew, who happen to speak Arabic. And if Behdad would chose to take a module and participate, I believe that he should be able to. Or would you disagree? >Can anyone please confirm ? :-) Sarah ? > We can confirm that you have been very involved in the project, and we may chose to make you the maintainer for Arabic. But if we'd to hear that you won't let other Arabic translators participate, because you don't know them, we may chose other people as maintainers. Coordination is not about excercising control of who is doing what and how, it is about coordinating the efforts of everyone who is willing to participate. If you're not even willing to send Sherif an email, but ask me to 'remove' him, really, I don't know whether that's what is meant by being a coordinator. On a last note, if you'd want to argue that I excercise some level of control, it's true, and I use it to make sure as best as I can that everyone who wants to participate can. Best Regards, Bernd > >Kind regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA2ib4HDRR6Cd0eSYRAiWhAJ9403BhqJ17qB89iuJ4b2jHO9bXDACgpqDE >BQFdkpMMQ75OfRueau8dHMU= >=nElG >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From josep at imatge-sintetica.com Thu Jun 24 06:58:03 2004 From: josep at imatge-sintetica.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 08:58:03 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1088060283.2570.114.camel@deimos> On Wed, 2004-06-23 at 02:19, Bernd Groh wrote: > Josep Puigdemont schrieb: > >On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 11:38, Bernd Groh wrote: > >>If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets > >>more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a language, > >>peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In this way, > >> > >I think we should have been consulted about this change before it was > >applied, no? Maybe you did and I missed it, sorry! After all, the > >translation project is a true community effort, and we might have > >something to say about what's best for us too... > > > > I did this on request from a lot of people within the community, and I > believed their reasoning to be very valid. > I completely missed that, and wasn't aware of the fact that this was a community request, and being this the functionality the community wanted, it seems very logical that it was implemented. Anyway, I still disagree in not having translation teams instead, and I would be a bad member of the community if I didn't at least mention it (even if it is only for myself who I'm speaking for). I appreciate the advantages of this new method: * it's a community request * translation work accessible to everybody * avoids duplicated work * Anyone can see who's doing what in a very organized way * I think I miss a few more here... It would also be interesting to see which points you (plural) think are not so good, or could be improved. For me, the problem I see is that it doesn't encourage team work. In any translation project it is very important that all translators get in contact, that way we make sure we all use the same terminology, the same style, etc, and thus we guarantee a certain level of quality and consistency. Quality gets better with time. In my particular case I can enjoy the experience of a group that has been working with the translation of open source software for more than 7 years. This work includes a great compendium of words and neologisms, a style guide, and a translation memory with more than 62,000 entries. Anyone with sufficient knowledge can do a translation, but although those 7 years of work are accessible to anyone, nobody forces a new translator to use them. On the other hand, if a new translator had to join a team, s/he would have to use the same style and terminology as the rest of the team, which I find _very_ important. For example, the word "File" can be translated into my language as "Fitxer" or "Arxiu". In order to keep consistency we had to decide which one to use and stay with it always, and _that's_ what a translation team can guarantee, and _that_ improves quality and consistency among translations. That's just one example, but there are many, specially those related to "new" terms like "buffer" or "cache", for which many people use the English term when there already is a translation. > > > >What if it never gets finished? Or never released, or someone else can > >translate it faster, or if it contains errors? Or if it does't use the > >same terminology/style as other translations? > > > > If it doesn't get finished in time, we'll release it. If somone else can > translate it faster, so what? And I don't think all the other problems > are to be associated with the new system, you have the same problems > without it. > True, you're right, but, as explained above, the "other problems" are not present if translation teams are used. I still think that it would be good to force translators to work and join translation teams. [cut] > Why? Why does the new system keep you from communicating with other > translators in your language? > It doesn't, but the fact that it doesn't, doesn't mean that it makes me communicate with other translators, which, for the reasons explained above, I believe should be enforced. > > >On the other hand it restricts the assignment of modules to people using > >CVS. Just as an example, in our team we have some very good translators > >that use Windows, and have no idea about CVS or SSH keys, but are very > >valuable to us. > > > > Who is commiting their files? I was, and I suppose you'll say that I can take the file for them and continue committing their files. True, it is just that I don't want to figure as a translator of something someone else is translating, I would feel like steeling their credit. > > > >IMHO, I think a better approach is that of the gnome translation > >project, having a coordinator for a language and making him/her commit > >the changes, but I believe Christian Rose has more to say if this is the > >case than I do. > > > > The new system has the option of a maintainer. I can simply set the > coordinator the maintainer of all modules of a certain language, and > this maintainer then has full access to the cvs for that language. In > how is that different to what gnome is doing? Nobody keeps only one That's what I could find: http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gtp/join.html GNOME makes you be part of a team, you don't get CVS access unless someone vouches for you (iirc) or you have done previous work that proves you should have access (or deserve to). > person from commiting. We simply disallow two non-maintainers from > commiting at the same time. I believe it can be done with teams too. That's just my opinion and I can be wrong too. So far no one has backed me up, and the community has already spoken, but I had to tell to have the satisfaction of having done [at least for once] my duty :) Keep up the good work! Best regards, Josep From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 08:49:57 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 10:49:57 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1088060283.2570.114.camel@deimos> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> <1088060283.2570.114.camel@deimos> Message-ID: <200406241049.58882.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 08:58, Josep Puigdemont wrote: > That's just my opinion and I can be wrong too. So far no one has backed > me up, and the community has already spoken, but I had to tell to have > the satisfaction of having done [at least for once] my duty :) I think we are in the same boat ;) You have backup from me. Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2pW1HDRR6Cd0eSYRAnIBAKCzP04aJ3laEUulAJyTJNuEZ4AC6QCg2I1n HssDfIT2LY1t5M48+TKf+qc= =DrHM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 09:06:13 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 11:06:13 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406240257.29832.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <200406241106.14709.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 05:26, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Hi Youcef, > > I can indeed confirm that you have been involved in the Arabic > translation thing, Ah, finally, someone ;) The thing is that we are *still* involved in it ;) Last sunday (or Saturday) I did some commits. Thank you for confirming :-) > but what you are missing here is that the > Fedora translation project has no coordinator, no maintainer. > Ok? You can't just jump up and say "I am the coordinator." Actually it has, and you can apply to it via the web interface... > If > someone's making troubles for you as a contributor, then Red Hat > people would love to help you resolve the problem, but before > that, you are simply not different from any other possible > contributor which may show up at any time. Not sure. You mean there's no difference between someone who jumps in and put his name there because a new system has just been installed and the field was blank and between a team who did 90% of the translation in the last weeks and which is *still* translating ? ;) > So please understand, > unlike many other project, this one's not about human factor, > credits, blah blah. PO headers are not about that either, > because they just document the *last* translator. No, the PO headers list *all* the translators, not only the last one. So everyone get their credits. About the 'human factor': when a new system is installed, it should consider what was already in place in terms of who was doing what. If someone comes by chance and fills a blank field because the system is very recent (and the community is not even aware of such a change yet), then the responsible should say, 'OK sorry, but there's already a team translating, why not contact them first ?'. > It's not about > credit. You did all the translation, thank you; you're welcome. > That's all. I'm not asking more than that. But if you do all of the translation and someone says thank you to someone else than you, then there's a problem ;) > behdad (who has not done any translation on Fedora [yet]) :-) Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2pmFHDRR6Cd0eSYRAiGXAKDQu6nbGj36nyPHgzuT1UPoGbhgpACePltI FNlhteL+sQji1qp/Zdjeg8Q= =9L+H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bgroh at redhat.com Thu Jun 24 09:28:57 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:28:57 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1088060283.2570.114.camel@deimos> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> <1088060283.2570.114.camel@deimos> Message-ID: <40DA9ED9.2000703@redhat.com> Josep Puigdemont schrieb: >On Wed, 2004-06-23 at 02:19, Bernd Groh wrote: > > >>Josep Puigdemont schrieb: >> >> >>>On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 11:38, Bernd Groh wrote: >>> >>> >>>>If you have only 2 translators, then it may not be a problem, it gets >>>>more difficult with 10. And if you have 20+ translators to a language, >>>>peer-to-peer communication has proven not to be ideal. In this way, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>I think we should have been consulted about this change before it was >>>applied, no? Maybe you did and I missed it, sorry! After all, the >>>translation project is a true community effort, and we might have >>>something to say about what's best for us too... >>> >>> >>> >>I did this on request from a lot of people within the community, and I >>believed their reasoning to be very valid. >> >> >> > >I completely missed that, and wasn't aware of the fact that this was a >community request, and being this the functionality the community >wanted, it seems very logical that it was implemented. > >Anyway, I still disagree in not having translation teams instead, and I >would be a bad member of the community if I didn't at least mention it >(even if it is only for myself who I'm speaking for). > Nobody keeps anyone from having translations teams, I think it is a good idea, but not one we'll be enforcing. This is something that has to evolve out of the community itself. >I appreciate the advantages of this new method: > * it's a community request > * translation work accessible to everybody > * avoids duplicated work > * Anyone can see who's doing what in a very organized way > * I think I miss a few more here... > >It would also be interesting to see which points you (plural) think are >not so good, or could be improved. > Agree. I'd be happy to receive any feedback, as long as it appears constructive, and I believe your comments are. > For me, the problem I see is that it doesn't encourage team work. In >any translation project it is very important that all translators get in >contact, that way we make sure we all use the same terminology, the same >style, etc, and thus we guarantee a certain level of quality and >consistency. Quality gets better with time. > I agree to some extent, in some cases, it is hard to manage though. Not talking about everyone agreeing on the same terminology. For some languages, that can indeed be extremely difficult, if it is possible at all. > In my particular case I can enjoy the experience of a group that has >been working with the translation of open source software for more than >7 years. This work includes a great compendium of words and neologisms, >a style guide, and a translation memory with more than 62,000 entries. >Anyone with sufficient knowledge can do a translation, but although >those 7 years of work are accessible to anyone, nobody forces a new >translator to use them. > On the other hand, if a new translator had to join a team, s/he would >have to use the same style and terminology as the rest of the team, >which I find _very_ important. For example, the word "File" can be >translated into my language as "Fitxer" or "Arxiu". In order to keep >consistency we had to decide which one to use and stay with it always, >and _that's_ what a translation team can guarantee, and _that_ improves >quality and consistency among translations. That's just one example, but >there are many, specially those related to "new" terms like "buffer" or >"cache", for which many people use the English term when there already >is a translation. > Believe me, this point is very well taken, but at the same time, you can watch who is translating what, and if you recognize a new translator, invite her/him to your team. Why does it always have to be the new translator who gets in contact with the group? I personally believe in making it as easy for people to get started as possible. Wouldn't it be easier for the group to send an invite? >>>What if it never gets finished? Or never released, or someone else can >>>translate it faster, or if it contains errors? Or if it does't use the >>>same terminology/style as other translations? >>> >>> >>> >>If it doesn't get finished in time, we'll release it. If somone else can >>translate it faster, so what? And I don't think all the other problems >>are to be associated with the new system, you have the same problems >>without it. >> >> >> > >True, you're right, but, as explained above, the "other problems" are >not present if translation teams are used. > But these aren't associated with the new system, since it is even more restrictive than the previous one. >I still think that it would be good to force translators to work and >join translation teams. > I believe it would be good to encourage them, I disagree with forcing them. >>Why? Why does the new system keep you from communicating with other >>translators in your language? >> >> >> > >It doesn't, but the fact that it doesn't, doesn't mean that it makes me >communicate with other translators, which, for the reasons explained >above, I believe should be enforced. > I don't think it should. I believe it makes it harder for new translators to get started. Nobody keeps you from encouraging new translators to join your team. >>>On the other hand it restricts the assignment of modules to people using >>>CVS. Just as an example, in our team we have some very good translators >>>that use Windows, and have no idea about CVS or SSH keys, but are very >>>valuable to us. >>> >>> >>> >>Who is commiting their files? >> >> > >I was, and I suppose you'll say that I can take the file for them and >continue committing their files. True, it is just that I don't want to >figure as a translator of something someone else is translating, I would >feel like steeling their credit. > Why won't you be the maintainer then? ;) And being a current translator is not about credit, it's so that people know who is currently translating the file, or who intends a commit, so that other people know what to and what not to translate. >>>IMHO, I think a better approach is that of the gnome translation >>>project, having a coordinator for a language and making him/her commit >>>the changes, but I believe Christian Rose has more to say if this is the >>>case than I do. >>> >>> >>> >>The new system has the option of a maintainer. I can simply set the >>coordinator the maintainer of all modules of a certain language, and >>this maintainer then has full access to the cvs for that language. In >>how is that different to what gnome is doing? Nobody keeps only one >> >> > >That's what I could find: >http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gtp/join.html > >GNOME makes you be part of a team, you don't get CVS access unless >someone vouches for you (iirc) or you have done previous work that >proves you should have access (or deserve to). > Yes, that's why I never got any cvs access. The first maintainer I send an email to wasn't the maintainer anymore since ages, and the second one never replied. That's a really good system! I understand that maintainers of modules are busy with other things, this is voluntary after all, but that's exactly why I prefer a system in which you can just get started (ignoring the problems we had with account activation now and then :)), and if a maintainer has time, s/he can look at who was doing what and then either invite a person to become part of a group, or what ever s/he may chose. I prefer to assume that everyone deserves to participate, and then restrict or disable someones access if the opposite becomes apparent. >>person from commiting. We simply disallow two non-maintainers from >>commiting at the same time. >> >> > >I believe it can be done with teams too. > And I don't disagree. > That's just my opinion and I can be wrong too. So far no one has backed >me up, and the community has already spoken, but I had to tell to have >the satisfaction of having done [at least for once] my duty :) > And so you should! And I'm not doing anything else than stating my opinion either. :) Best Regards, Bernd > >Keep up the good work! > >Best regards, > >Josep > > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From mitr at volny.cz Thu Jun 24 10:04:48 2004 From: mitr at volny.cz (Miloslav Trmac) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:04:48 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40DA9ED9.2000703@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> <1088060283.2570.114.camel@deimos> <40DA9ED9.2000703@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040624100447.GB27826@chrys.ms.mff.cuni.cz> On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 07:28:57PM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: > Josep Puigdemont schrieb: > >That's what I could find: > >http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gtp/join.html > > > >GNOME makes you be part of a team, you don't get CVS access unless > >someone vouches for you (iirc) or you have done previous work that > >proves you should have access (or deserve to). > > Yes, that's why I never got any cvs access. The first maintainer I send > an email to wasn't the maintainer anymore since ages, and the second one > never replied. That's a really good system! If you can't contact a GTP language maintainer, just mention it on gnome-i18n at gnome.org . The GTP coordinator then issues a "public call to respond" and the maintainer is replaced if he/she doesn't respond in 14 days. Mirek From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 10:04:43 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:04:43 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40DA56BD.3060706@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406240257.29832.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DA56BD.3060706@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406241204.44385.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 06:21, Bernd Groh wrote: > Being a coordinator isn't about having control, or is it now? ;) It depends how you define 'control' :-). I define it as keeping consistency, avoiding conflicts, sharing the tasks. > Well, it arrived there, because this person clicked on [Take], and no, > it is not a bug. :) Yeah, I suppose so. In the very short (?) moment between the system was installed and the email was sent to the list. If you consider the human factor though, it seems like it's a bug. In other words, a team is already translating the same file -> conflict/bug. > Given that he has taken a module, I'd say he *is* participating. And as > Behdad said, PO-Headers aren't all conclusive, but even if that person > had never done any translations before, why say he can't? What is wrong > with somebody wanting to participate? Nothing wrong about that at all. If there are many 'inorganized' (not meant to be pejorative :-) people working on a language then it's OK. However, if there's a team already in place (with mailing lists, with CVS, etc on their own) , new comers should join it, for the reasons I said above: consistency, task-sharing...). Actually, many (if not all) projects consider this 'human factor' :-) The ones we're contributing to at least. So Fedora now is becoming an exception to the rule, but I have yet to understand the reasons ;) > You won't be able to commit dist (or specspo), but you can commit > everything else. Have you already translated dist? If so, let Sherif > know, and ask him to release the module, I'm sure he'd be helpful. If > you chose not to do so, I am not going to help you. I am not going to > kick him off, just because you don't know him, as I've stated previously. I'm not interested in committing other files, since.... we *finished* them. The only file which has untranslated/fuzzy strings is now dist.po and I'm not able to update it :-) I'll contact him, no problem. But not considering the 'human factor' sounds to me dangerous as it will tend to alienate constant contributors simply because someone came and filled a blank field. Again, I don't know Sherif, he's probably a very nice and dedicated person (well, in short, I don't know him ;). My issue is not with him personally. Again, it's about considering the 'human factor' (sorry, I don't know how many times I said this word in this email ;) > You did all of the commits, but I assume not all of the translations, > or? Never said the contrary. I did the commits on behalf of a team, and their names are in the headers. I did only a small percentage :-) When I say 'I', you can substitute it by 'we' or 'the team'... > So why do you believe you have the right to say that Sherif cannot > do any Arabic translations? Never said that. I'm saying that newcomers should be directed to a team in case there's one already in place. Very different. Why ? For the reasons I stated above. > Why don't you, even after I told you you > should, send him an email, but instead tell me that him translating the > module is a 'bug' and I should fix it? As I said above, I'll do. > It is not a bug, he's an Arabic > translator, just like you. He might not have known there is a very > active Arabic group, he might not even be subscribed to this mailing > list, so, why not email him and ask him to participate in your group? Noted. > IMO, that's what a coordinator should do. On a side note, responsibles of the Fedora l10n/i18n should also be aware of the teams involved in translation IMHO. > On a side note, do you believe > the other arabic translators get enough credit? Yes. At least, their names are in the PO headers, and as far as I can tell no one asked more than that. Again, when you read 'I' please understand 'the team' :-) Sorry if I gave the impression that I was trying to credit myself individually. I'm the coordinator of the translation and I'm concerned by the fact that every contributor gets credited for their hard work. > So? Does that mean you decide on who is allowed to contribute to the > Arabic translations and who isn't? I don't remember a single time when we said to someone don't translate. On the contrary, we're in dire need for translators ;) And the Fedora page on Arabeyes states it clearly in bold characters: http://www.arabeyes.org/project.php?proj=Fedora What I think though, is that if there's a team in place, there's a need to place new comers in harmony among the team, for the reasons stated above. > I didn't know you were the Arabic coordinator, neither it seems like > Sherif or Behdad knew, who happen to speak Arabic. And if Behdad would > chose to take a module and participate, I believe that he should be able > to. Or would you disagree? Well now you know ;) As for Sherif, how could he know if he came on the status page by accident when you had just implemented the new system ? Of course he couldn't know. But now we're back to the human factor. ie, *you* know that I'm the coordinator. As for Behdad, I guess he's more interested by Persian ;) Of course, he is more then welcome if he wants to participate in the Arabic translation :)) > We can confirm that you have been very involved in the project, and we > may chose to make you the maintainer for Arabic. Thank you. > But if we'd to hear > that you won't let other Arabic translators participate, because you > don't know them, we may chose other people as maintainers. Did I ever said that ? :-) Again, We're in need of translators. Yet we have to respect consistency. It's about the framework, not about the persons. > Coordination > is not about excercising control of who is doing what and how, it is > about coordinating the efforts of everyone who is willing to > participate. Agreed (yet the coordinator is also responsible for QA and such). > If you're not even willing to send Sherif an email, but ask > me to 'remove' him, really, I don't know whether that's what is meant by > being a coordinator. Again, will do. But considering the 'human factor', when I sent my first email to this list concerning this topic, I was far from thinking that it would generate all this traffic. I thought it was a 1-sec fix. Obviously, I was wrong. > On a last note, if you'd want to argue that I excercise some level of > control, it's true, and I use it to make sure as best as I can that > everyone who wants to participate can. Agreed. I just would like to stress one last time on the ... 'human factor', 'human factor', 'human factor', 'human factor', ;-)) You have to exercice some control. Right. But you have to be aware of the translation teams in place too. Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2qc7HDRR6Cd0eSYRAkhiAJ4n1nLiTxnBsADhC15Nalxbb9OphwCfSvYb FapZu7Ts37F/V9vQDr81XmA= =k42a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bgroh at redhat.com Thu Jun 24 10:09:31 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:09:31 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406241106.14709.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406240257.29832.rahal@arabeyes.org> <200406241106.14709.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40DAA85B.7010902@redhat.com> Youcef, >>I can indeed confirm that you have been involved in the Arabic >>translation thing, >> >> > >Ah, finally, someone ;) The thing is that we are *still* involved in it ;) >Last sunday (or Saturday) I did some commits. > >Thank you for confirming :-) > Why the sarcasm, nobody ever said you weren't involved, not even I. I simply said, and I believe so did Behdad, that it doesn't give you the right to decide who is allowed to translate into Arabic and who isn't. And that you've done *all* (somebody please back that up) the commits, doesn't change that. >>but what you are missing here is that the >>Fedora translation project has no coordinator, no maintainer. >>Ok? You can't just jump up and say "I am the coordinator." >> >> > >Actually it has, and you can apply to it via the web interface... > No, it hasn't. At least not in the way you were proclaiming and Behdad was referring to. The new system has the option of assigning a maintainer to a certain module, not to an entire language. To assign a maintainer to all modules of a language will only be done if somebody is willing to be the maintainer of an entire language, and nobody of that language objects to it. >>If >>someone's making troubles for you as a contributor, then Red Hat >>people would love to help you resolve the problem, but before >>that, you are simply not different from any other possible >>contributor which may show up at any time. >> >> > >Not sure. You mean there's no difference between someone who jumps in and put >his name there because a new system has just been installed and the field was >blank and between a team who did 90% of the translation in the last weeks and >which is *still* translating ? ;) > Do you misunderstand Behdad on purpose now? Please, Youcef, please tell me, how do you know that Sherif simply put in his name, because a new system has just been installed and the field was blank? I'd think he took the module, because he is translating it. Did that ever occur to you? Or do you believe that because you did the majority of translations, that you, and not he, should have the right to translate the module? >>So please understand, >>unlike many other project, this one's not about human factor, >>credits, blah blah. PO headers are not about that either, >>because they just document the *last* translator. >> >> > >No, the PO headers list *all* the translators, not only the last one. So >everyone get their credits. > What exactly is more important to you, that the translations get done, or that you get some credit? And no, the po header does only list the last translator. Some programs keep previous translators in comments, others do not. >About the 'human factor': when a new system is installed, it should consider >what was already in place in terms of who was doing what. If someone comes by >chance and fills a blank field because the system is very recent (and the >community is not even aware of such a change yet), then the responsible >should say, 'OK sorry, but there's already a team translating, why not >contact them first ?'. > You seem to talk about someone, as opposed to the community? Does that mean you do not consider this someone part of the community? What for you is the community? >>It's not about >>credit. You did all the translation, thank you; you're welcome. >>That's all. >> >> > >I'm not asking more than that. But if you do all of the translation and >someone says thank you to someone else than you, then there's a problem ;) > Then there shouldn't be a problem, right? Again, thank you. :) Regards, Bernd > > > >>behdad (who has not done any translation on Fedora [yet]) >> >> > >:-) > >Regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA2pmFHDRR6Cd0eSYRAiGXAKDQu6nbGj36nyPHgzuT1UPoGbhgpACePltI >FNlhteL+sQji1qp/Zdjeg8Q= >=9L+H >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 10:31:08 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:31:08 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40DAA85B.7010902@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406241106.14709.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DAA85B.7010902@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406241231.10062.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 12:09, Bernd Groh wrote: > Why the sarcasm, nobody ever said you weren't involved, not even I. I > simply said, and I believe so did Behdad, that it doesn't give you the > right to decide who is allowed to translate into Arabic and who isn't. > And that you've done *all* (somebody please back that up) the commits, > doesn't change that. I'm concerned about consistency, task-sharing, avoiding conflicts and QA. > No, it hasn't. At least not in the way you were proclaiming and Behdad > was referring to. The new system has the option of assigning a > maintainer to a certain module, not to an entire language. To assign a > maintainer to all modules of a language will only be done if somebody is > willing to be the maintainer of an entire language, and nobody of that > language objects to it. OK. I apply to be the maintainer of the entire language. How will you know that no one objects to it if they don't susbcribe to the lists ? (seriously, no irony). > Do you misunderstand Behdad on purpose now? Please, Youcef, please tell > me, how do you know that Sherif simply put in his name, because a new > system has just been installed and the field was blank? I'd think he > took the module, because he is translating it. Did that ever occur to > you? Or do you believe that because you did the majority of > translations, that you, and not he, should have the right to translate > the module? Again, I have NOTHING against him in particular. As stated above, I'm concerned bu consisteny, QA... Like I said in another email, I'll contact him, no problem. It's just that I wasn't expecting such traffic from a 'simple' request :) > What exactly is more important to you, that the translations get done, > or that you get some credit? QA, consistency, no conflicts... > And no, the po header does only list the > last translator. Some programs keep previous translators in comments, > others do not. In our team we are keen to keep all the names there (check the translated POs). And I _personally_ check that constantly. There are even the names of people who translated the 7 strings before we started working on it. So everyone is there. > >About the 'human factor': when a new system is installed, it should > > consider what was already in place in terms of who was doing what. If > > someone comes by chance and fills a blank field because the system is > > very recent (and the community is not even aware of such a change yet), > > then the responsible should say, 'OK sorry, but there's already a team > > translating, why not contact them first ?'. > > You seem to talk about someone, as opposed to the community? Does that > mean you do not consider this someone part of the community? What for > you is the community? Community: people who are already working on something. Someone: a new comer (which will be integrated to the community). > Then there shouldn't be a problem, right? Again, thank you. :) :) Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2q1sHDRR6Cd0eSYRAoHJAJ0XsBE03UCT7SChHBE/rofL5C8M6ACgyfMg UjR2XBcBsw4rkRoX+ys65K4= =dufD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bgroh at redhat.com Thu Jun 24 10:32:50 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:32:50 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406241204.44385.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406240257.29832.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DA56BD.3060706@redhat.com> <200406241204.44385.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40DAADD2.6050004@redhat.com> Youcef, I'll make this one short. >>So why do you believe you have the right to say that Sherif cannot >>do any Arabic translations? >> >> > >Never said that. I'm saying that newcomers should be directed to a team in >case there's one already in place. Very different. Why ? For the reasons I >stated above. > Well, why then did you ask me to fix the bug of Sherif being there? You've basically asked me to remove him and put you instead. I'd say that it pretty much says that you believe you've got more right to translate the module than him, and he shouldn't really translate it without your permission. Or where did I misunderstand you here? >>Why don't you, even after I told you you >>should, send him an email, but instead tell me that him translating the >>module is a 'bug' and I should fix it? >> >> > >As I said above, I'll do. > Thank you, I'm sure all will be resolved now. :) >Again, will do. But considering the 'human factor', when I sent my first email >to this list concerning this topic, I was far from thinking that it would >generate all this traffic. I thought it was a 1-sec fix. Obviously, I was >wrong. > You see, again, a 1-sec fix? And then you say you've never said he can't translate it. He does, and he has the right to commit. Maybe you should have emailed him straight away, rather than ask on list to remove him? I'd never, since it is not my place to decide on who of a certain language has what right. I'm happy to give someone certain additional rights under certain conditions, but I'm not going to take away anyone rights without a good reason, such as that a person is producing bad translations. >>On a last note, if you'd want to argue that I excercise some level of >>control, it's true, and I use it to make sure as best as I can that >>everyone who wants to participate can. >> >> > >Agreed. I just would like to stress one last time on the ... 'human factor', >'human factor', 'human factor', 'human factor', ;-)) You have to exercice >some control. Right. But you have to be aware of the translation teams in >place too. > I'd encourage everyone to join a translation team, but you have to understand that just because someone doesn't belong to a certain group, I am not going to revoke his rights to translate a module. Best Regards, Bernd >Regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA2qc7HDRR6Cd0eSYRAkhiAJ4n1nLiTxnBsADhC15Nalxbb9OphwCfSvYb >FapZu7Ts37F/V9vQDr81XmA= >=k42a >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Thu Jun 24 10:40:57 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 20:40:57 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406241231.10062.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406241106.14709.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DAA85B.7010902@redhat.com> <200406241231.10062.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40DAAFB9.80809@redhat.com> Youcef Rabah Rahal schrieb: >[snip] >Again, I have NOTHING against him in particular. As stated above, I'm >concerned bu consisteny, QA... Like I said in another email, I'll contact >him, no problem. It's just that I wasn't expecting such traffic from a >'simple' request :) > I simply wanted to make sure you understood why I am not going to fullfill this request, and it is important to me that you do understand. :) Best Regards, Bernd > > > >>What exactly is more important to you, that the translations get done, >>or that you get some credit? >> >> > >QA, consistency, no conflicts... > > > >>And no, the po header does only list the >>last translator. Some programs keep previous translators in comments, >>others do not. >> >> > >In our team we are keen to keep all the names there (check the translated >POs). And I _personally_ check that constantly. There are even the names of >people who translated the 7 strings before we started working on it. So >everyone is there. > > > >>>About the 'human factor': when a new system is installed, it should >>>consider what was already in place in terms of who was doing what. If >>>someone comes by chance and fills a blank field because the system is >>>very recent (and the community is not even aware of such a change yet), >>>then the responsible should say, 'OK sorry, but there's already a team >>>translating, why not contact them first ?'. >>> >>> >>You seem to talk about someone, as opposed to the community? Does that >>mean you do not consider this someone part of the community? What for >>you is the community? >> >> > >Community: people who are already working on something. Someone: a new comer >(which will be integrated to the community). > > > >>Then there shouldn't be a problem, right? Again, thank you. :) >> >> > >:) > >Regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA2q1sHDRR6Cd0eSYRAoHJAJ0XsBE03UCT7SChHBE/rofL5C8M6ACgyfMg >UjR2XBcBsw4rkRoX+ys65K4= >=dufD >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 11:15:46 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:15:46 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40DAAFB9.80809@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406241231.10062.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DAAFB9.80809@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406241315.47709.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 12:40, Bernd Groh wrote: > Youcef Rabah Rahal schrieb: > >Again, I have NOTHING against him in particular. As stated above, I'm > >concerned bu consisteny, QA... Like I said in another email, I'll contact > >him, no problem. It's just that I wasn't expecting such traffic from a > >'simple' request :) > I simply wanted to make sure you understood why I am not going to > fullfill this request, and it is important to me that you do understand. :) Fair enough. Though I don't fully agree with you, I understand your position :-) Kind regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2rfiHDRR6Cd0eSYRApDSAKC3GnOaKPUPNqmn6DqjDWCEaFKW0QCg7w7C glKueyOC6HoOO3jt+hgBbts= =wGHT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 11:13:11 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 13:13:11 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40DAADD2.6050004@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406241204.44385.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DAADD2.6050004@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406241313.12675.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 12:32, Bernd Groh wrote: > Well, why then did you ask me to fix the bug of Sherif being there? > You've basically asked me to remove him and put you instead. I'd say > that it pretty much says that you believe you've got more right to > translate the module than him, and he shouldn't really translate it > without your permission. Or where did I misunderstand you here? No, not about the rights, but about the framework. > >As I said above, I'll do. > > Thank you, I'm sure all will be resolved now. :) I hope so :-) > You see, again, a 1-sec fix? And then you say you've never said he can't > translate it. He does, and he has the right to commit. Maybe you should > have emailed him straight away, rather than ask on list to remove him? Yes, it was a mistake. > I'd never, since it is not my place to decide on who of a certain > language has what right. I'm happy to give someone certain additional > rights under certain conditions, but I'm not going to take away anyone > rights without a good reason, such as that a person is producing bad > translations. Noted. > I'd encourage everyone to join a translation team, but you have to > understand that just because someone doesn't belong to a certain group, > I am not going to revoke his rights to translate a module. Not revoke their rights, but before giving them rights, direct them first to the language team if any. If there's a problem, like the team not wanting to integrate the person for no valid reason, then you should give them access. I think you really should consider this. It does not seem to be specific to Arabic and other people have expressed concerns about this system too. Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2rdHHDRR6Cd0eSYRAkDhAKCzNFSGS/jVAlczreckWeOgAXx4JwCgvs3c 80LVwp7xUcWp2I3E0Mn9mDs= =gBS2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sabdelg at redhat.com Thu Jun 24 13:26:39 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406241313.12675.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: Wow .. where did I miss all of that ! Where all that came from? I did not know that there was someone active is translating that module into arabic. Simply I wanted to contribute. I just wanted to get it done. Youcef, you could have simply sent me email and I would released that for you. I am not sure that what you are doing here is right. Claiming control and asking for kicking anyone else out isn't acceptable. Regardless of the my concerns on the translation already made, I want to make this clear as Bernd cleared it. No one has the right for more traslantion than others or demand to have the trasnaltion done his way. I do have concerns about the current translation, but I always belived something is better than nothing. My attempt to help as I am arabic speaking person is my right. With all my respect to you, I am surprised to the approach. Simple email reaquesting relase would have done it. I am not sure what QA and keeping things organized on any other site? I thought the system already in place is the one the community should share and use to reach what they want. So I am sorry your claims I can not understand. So you have no problem for me to translate but I have to join you guys @ arabeyes otherwise I should keep my hands off because it is yours? I just can not understand it. I will release this module and you are more than welcome to finish it. As for your request to maintain all the arabic translation, and as rules stated by Bernd, I myself object for someone to control all the translation. Thanks Sherif From josep at imatge-sintetica.com Thu Jun 24 13:37:46 2004 From: josep at imatge-sintetica.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 15:37:46 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40DA9ED9.2000703@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> <1088060283.2570.114.camel@deimos> <40DA9ED9.2000703@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1088084266.2570.291.camel@deimos> On Thu, 2004-06-24 at 11:28, Bernd Groh wrote: > Josep Puigdemont schrieb: > >Anyway, I still disagree in not having translation teams instead, and I > >would be a bad member of the community if I didn't at least mention it > >(even if it is only for myself who I'm speaking for). > > > > Nobody keeps anyone from having translations teams, I think it is a good > idea, but not one we'll be enforcing. This is something that has to > evolve out of the community itself. > Just to summarize my position: As long as this system allows unconsistent translations, I'll think it is flawed, and thus I'll oppose to it (in a nice way). That I oppose to it doesn't mean I will not respect it. And yes, I think the translation of Fedora has been flawed since day one, it's up to us to get it right. I was really surprised when I got the CVS account at Red Hat for translations, without questioning or hesitation from your side, I appreciate the trust, but it can also bring undesired lateral effects, fortunately I'm a nice guy :) Finally, I believe that keeping the distribution consistent and coherent is more important than getting a new translator started. Colophon: Who can tell if a translation is "right" or not? Or if it is "consistent" or not? that will be hard... maybe looking at "previous art", merit, or experience... Tough question, really, that's the weak part of my argument. Probably a team of translators for the same language would be able to decide what's "right", like in a democracy, as long as anyone can join a translation team, of course :) > > On the other hand, if a new translator had to join a team, s/he would > >have to use the same style and terminology as the rest of the team, > >which I find _very_ important. For example, the word "File" can be > >translated into my language as "Fitxer" or "Arxiu". In order to keep > >consistency we had to decide which one to use and stay with it always, > >and _that's_ what a translation team can guarantee, and _that_ improves > >quality and consistency among translations. That's just one example, but > >there are many, specially those related to "new" terms like "buffer" or > >"cache", for which many people use the English term when there already > >is a translation. > > > > Believe me, this point is very well taken, but at the same time, you can > watch who is translating what, and if you recognize a new translator, > invite her/him to your team. Why does it always have to be the new > translator who gets in contact with the group? I personally believe in > making it as easy for people to get started as possible. Wouldn't it be > easier for the group to send an invite? > Right, if there's the case I (or someone else) will ask a new translator to join us, of course. It is just that s/he might not want to do it, or might not want to use the same terminology we've used for the rest of the translations... then what? One application says "Quit" the other says "Exit"... This is the only concern I have, and as a solution I only see enforcing (doh!) translation teams. But maybe that's not the goal of Fedora Translation Project (FTP?, ouch), maybe the goal is just to have the distro translated not consistent as well. > >I still think that it would be good to force translators to work and > >join translation teams. > > > > I believe it would be good to encourage them, I disagree with forcing them. > At least forcing the translator to commit himself to make a translation that will be consistent with the rest of the translations for a particular language. Just another example to illustrate what I mean: "log viewer" (the application) appears in three or four different files: menus, dist, anaconda and redhat-logviewer (iirc). All translations should use the same translation of "log viewer" or we'll confuse the user, but four different translators could use four different translations (yes it could be possible!). I don't know if Red Hat has a policy on how the interface to the user should be, and in what way should it address the user, for instance if the policy (if any) encourage to ask the user: "Please, press the button", or to order: "Press the button", or at developer's will (which I think would be inconsistent)... Thinks like this make a difference. Our policy, to give yet another example, tells us to address the user as "you" [polite you] ("ni" in Swedish), and orders from the user to the computer are in imperative form. Now, being consistent with this is key. If there's an application that doesn't follow the same style (or policy) it will disturb the user, and will harm the distro (imo). I'm not saying that ours is the best policy, I'm saying that it has to be consistent, and I know you agree, but the new method doesn't guarantee that (or does it?). > > Why won't you be the maintainer then? ;) And being a current translator > I'll apply for maintainer of ca (Catalan), if no one objects. The web page doesn't really tell what the role of a maintainer is, though, I think it should be stated somewhere. So I wait until I know what I'm messing with :) Policy on how to become maintainer and how to depose one should be stated too, probably. > is not about credit, it's so that people know who is currently > translating the file, or who intends a commit, so that other people know > what to and what not to translate. I just took dist, and it looks kind of unfair to have my name as a Translator, as we're, so far, 4 people working [slowly] on that file, and I am probably the one that has contributed the less. But well, it's something we can live with, I suppose :) Now, I know I seem to take this a bit religiously, and maybe I do, I just want you to see the light and become a convert, then I shall give you a place in the heaven of translationland :) Best regards, Josep P.S.: I promised myself it would not be a long mail, but... here it is... From sabdelg at redhat.com Thu Jun 24 13:39:30 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 09:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Youcef, I have just released the module for you. Enjoy translation. Thanks Sherif On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > > Wow .. where did I miss all of that ! Where all that came from? > I did not know that there was someone active is translating that > module into arabic. Simply I wanted to contribute. I just wanted > to get it done. > > Youcef, you could have simply sent me email and I would released > that for you. I am not sure that what you are doing here is > right. Claiming control and asking for kicking anyone else > out isn't acceptable. > > Regardless of the my concerns on the translation already made, > I want to make this clear as Bernd cleared it. No one has the > right for more traslantion than others or demand to have > the trasnaltion done his way. I do have concerns about > the current translation, but I always belived something is > better than nothing. My attempt to help as I am arabic > speaking person is my right. > > With all my respect to you, I am surprised to the approach. > Simple email reaquesting relase would have done it. > > I am not sure what QA and keeping things organized on > any other site? I thought the system already in place > is the one the community should share and use to reach > what they want. So I am sorry your claims I can not > understand. So you have no problem for me to translate > but I have to join you guys @ arabeyes otherwise I should > keep my hands off because it is yours? I just can not > understand it. > > I will release this module and you are more than welcome > to finish it. > > As for your request to maintain all the arabic translation, > and as rules stated by Bernd, I myself object for someone > to control all the translation. > > Thanks > > Sherif > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > -- Thanks =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Sherif R. Abdelgawad Phone: +1-919-754-3700 x44315 Red Hat Certified Engineer Cell: +1-703-628-0637 Sr. Consulting Engineer Global Professional Service Red Hat, Inc. http://www.redhat.com/services =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. "Albert Einstein" From frolix68 at yahoo.gr Thu Jun 24 14:01:38 2004 From: frolix68 at yahoo.gr (NikosX) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:01:38 +0300 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088085697.3279.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> ???? 24/????/2004, ????? ?????? ??? ??? 16:26, ?/? Sherif Abdelgawad ??????: > > Regardless of the my concerns on the translation already made, > I want to make this clear as Bernd cleared it. No one has the > right for more traslantion than others or demand to have > the trasnaltion done his way. Correct me if i am wrong: ok its the same thing for kernel developement for example, everyone has the right to code but i think that he can't take control via web buttons or commit code unless this code is reviewed by someone responsible for that. Start translating is an easy thing and anyone can do it but as you get deeper in this process you realize that many issues arrive. The random guy can do damage and put some extra work to those people that initialy spent their time and continue to care for quality translations. So i believe that the random guy have to prove he is qualified to do the job. The gnome model is certainly better for me. Nikos Charonitakis From sabdelg at redhat.com Thu Jun 24 14:45:08 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 10:45:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1088085697.3279.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 > Correct me if i am wrong: > ok its the same thing for kernel developement for example, everyone > has the right to code but i think that he can't take control via web > buttons or commit code unless this code is reviewed by someone > responsible for that. I did not say that we should not let someone to finish/maintain work. I agree with you that someone should maintain things. I think, that the current system is OK and I belive the translation team are doing their best to get everything done right. As for the case I was commenting on, I was just making it clear that the page was not saying there is a maintainer who maintain this module, so I wanted to contribute and help. I am not sure about the other languages, but for Arabic which what I was commenting on, there is quite delicats. Which I think if only one person is doing the translation, it would look odd to others. Unless a full team of ppl agree and accept one standard, that where my concerns are coming from. I assume that anyone can object, discuss or ask the maintainer to change something which will happen my time. Thanks Sherif -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2uj3GEwRyeYJw+YRAsCZAJ9s25YFjQKJvNQ2Yz8m9H1YgZ+ihQCfbfBR GNqOkPQyXg/pzX7wX1XBkcA= =Tn0J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 15:26:08 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:26:08 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406241726.10548.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 15:26, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > Wow .. where did I miss all of that ! Where all that came from? > I did not know that there was someone active is translating that > module into arabic. Simply I wanted to contribute. I just wanted > to get it done. You're right. Since there no mean on the status page to know there's a team working on the module, you couldn't know. > Youcef, you could have simply sent me email and I would released > that for you. I am not sure that what you are doing here is > right. Claiming control and asking for kicking anyone else > out isn't acceptable. I'll refer to my previous posts on the subject (about control etc). > Regardless of the my concerns on the translation already made, > I want to make this clear as Bernd cleared it. No one has the > right for more traslantion than others or demand to have > the trasnaltion done his way. I do have concerns about > the current translation, but I always belived something is > better than nothing. My attempt to help as I am arabic > speaking person is my right. Of course it's you right. However, since there's already a team in place (OK, that you weren't aware of), joining it, contributing and sharing your concerns is the best way to do IMHO. Please, if you have concerns about the current translation, we'll be more than happy to hear them. > With all my respect to you, I am surprised to the approach. > Simple email reaquesting relase would have done it. That started by an answer to the annoucement, and generated a traffic I wasn't expecting. So, yes, it was a mistake from my side. However, you should not take that personally. I would have reacted the same if it was another name. > I am not sure what QA and keeping things organized on > any other site? I thought the system already in place > is the one the community should share and use to reach > what they want. So I am sorry your claims I can not > understand. So you have no problem for me to translate > but I have to join you guys @ arabeyes otherwise I should > keep my hands off because it is yours? I just can not > understand it. You are free to translate without joining us (see Bernd's emails on the subject). However, we'll be more than glad to have you in the team and hear your thoughts and concerns. > I will release this module and you are more than welcome > to finish it. Thanks. > As for your request to maintain all the arabic translation, > and as rules stated by Bernd, I myself object for someone > to control all the translation. Well, I have been implied in translation for some time now, and I coordinate Fedora and Mandrake translations, and experience shows that working in organized teams is the best way to do it, and that's how other projects organize their translations. In Fedora though, per the new system, you're 'free' to translate alone ;) Again sorry if you've been offended, nothing personal. I would have reacted the same in case there's was another name in the 'Translator' field, even if retrospectively it sounds like it was a mistake. Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2vKQHDRR6Cd0eSYRAm+iAJ9eyij5T4ZXaCqOGmBClyZ80NA4kQCgtmv3 ta7yIa38dwtVPISTQLzjcw4= =Yeet -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 15:40:15 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:40:15 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406241740.17259.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 15:39, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > Youcef, > > I have just released the module for you. Enjoy translation. > > Thanks > > Sherif Thank you. My invitation is still valid to join us (and of course you can also start translating 'alone' if you'd like) Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2vXgHDRR6Cd0eSYRAjjjAKDnV6MmyCASxwX0I+sljFtVotD+KACg53Bl Jrf9Q28qkdKvArW8SCACP8U= =Qvvp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tome at users.ossm.org.mk Thu Jun 24 15:50:12 2004 From: tome at users.ossm.org.mk (=?koi8-r?Q?=F4=CF=CD=C9=D3=CC=C1=D7_?= =?koi8-r?Q?=ED=C1=D2=CB=CF=D7=D3=CB=C9?=) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:50:12 +0200 Subject: Call to the RedHat CVS admins, Macedonian translation Message-ID: <1088092212.3888.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Dear All, Our LUG has recently started translating the fedora packages to Macedonian. We're about to finish the translations, but cannot update the CVS as there are no previous mk.po files to update. Add/commit return "no permission errors". Please take the neccessary steps to help us synchronize the CVS with macedonian translation files. Thank you on behalf of our LUG. Kind Regards, Tomislav Markovski -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 15:50:22 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:50:22 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406241750.23101.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 16:45, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > I did not say that we should not let someone to finish/maintain work. > I agree with you that someone should maintain things. > I think, that the current system is OK and I belive the translation team > are doing their best to get everything done right. As for the case I was > commenting on, I was just making it clear that the page was not saying > there is a maintainer who maintain this module, so I wanted to contribute > and help. You couldn't know. Now, that you know, you can either contribute by joining the team or not joining it. > I am not sure about the other languages, but for Arabic which what > I was commenting on, there is quite delicats. Which I think if only one > person is doing the translation, it would look odd to others. Unless a > full team of ppl agree and accept one standard, that where my concerns > are coming from. Hmm. Not sure I understand ? I'm not translating alone. I'm just the coordinator. About the standard, it is being discussed in deep at Arabeyes, and involving all the Arabic translators working on GNOME, KDE, Mandrake, Debian... > I assume that anyone can object, discuss or ask the maintainer to change > something which will happen my time. Yup. Did anyone say the contrary ? ;-) You can see the records of long discussions on quality of translation on the archives of doc @ arabeyes dot org: vocabulary, grammar, sources, etc etc (and to which you can subscribe and post). Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2vg+HDRR6Cd0eSYRAoK1AKCKfiWim/9J6lqwMc302Ptb+MjVnwCfS/4p Lr5qSJ2bExu66k0C6cxCwbU= =1VME -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sabdelg at redhat.com Thu Jun 24 16:03:05 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 12:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406241750.23101.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Youcef, Glade that you know that there was no intention or other reasons than just helping from my side. Good luck in translation .. will sure contribute when need, it is almost done the arabic translation :-) I will use this mailing list to discuss or comment on any arabic translation. It is good at least to have base we can move forward from. Take care , and thanks. Sherif -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2vs8GEwRyeYJw+YRApvVAKC2rRMqiz+9vTwYu7Nzfw5lPz1BJQCgqyJ1 ghQR+U29OzCeudqihPb3oW4= =tn3v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 16:32:19 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 18:32:19 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406241832.20634.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 18:03, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > Youcef, > Glade that you know that there was no intention > or other reasons than just helping from my side. I was simply surprised. I'm sorry if my posts let you think that I thought something else. > Good luck in translation .. will sure contribute > when need, it is almost done the arabic translation :-) > I will use this mailing list to discuss or comment > on any arabic translation. It is good at least to have > base we can move forward from. I'm looking forward to read your comments/critics/bug_reports and/or see you contributing ;) > Take care , and thanks. > > Sherif Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2wITHDRR6Cd0eSYRAjfeAJ45vzDpm8P2xXnZorn0CTc0VoXaaQCgjXDE ep0qX+ueagxts8Ihjk4I5rk= =42Zu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Thu Jun 24 22:43:50 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:43:50 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed Message-ID: <200406250043.52138.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi Bernd, Some commit errors: Testing ar.po... **** Access allowed: rahal is in ACL for rhn-applet. Testing ar.po... [specspo/dist/ar.po] is not assigned to you. **** Access allowed: rahal is in ACL for specspo/dist. cvs server: Pre-commit check failed cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! Even though I have this file assigned to me. Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA21kmHDRR6Cd0eSYRAv8KAKDv4I/HztbA89j8PIPKCvI3GCDgNwCffGqo sskED+Jvb9a1If+khAJEnkc= =GHCs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bgroh at redhat.com Thu Jun 24 23:29:15 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:29:15 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406250043.52138.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <200406250043.52138.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40DB63CB.9030002@redhat.com> Hi Youcef, sorry 'bout that, It'll be fixed asap. After all, you've got the module, so you should be able to commit! ;) Bernd Youcef Rabah Rahal schrieb: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Hi Bernd, > >Some commit errors: > >Testing ar.po... >**** Access allowed: rahal is in ACL for rhn-applet. >Testing ar.po... >[specspo/dist/ar.po] is not assigned to you. >**** Access allowed: rahal is in ACL for specspo/dist. >cvs server: Pre-commit check failed >cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! > >Even though I have this file assigned to me. > >Regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA21kmHDRR6Cd0eSYRAv8KAKDv4I/HztbA89j8PIPKCvI3GCDgNwCffGqo >sskED+Jvb9a1If+khAJEnkc= >=GHCs >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Thu Jun 24 23:40:45 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:40:45 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406250043.52138.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <200406250043.52138.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40DB667D.8080502@redhat.com> Can you please try again and tell me what it says now. Bernd Youcef Rabah Rahal schrieb: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >Hi Bernd, > >Some commit errors: > >Testing ar.po... >**** Access allowed: rahal is in ACL for rhn-applet. >Testing ar.po... >[specspo/dist/ar.po] is not assigned to you. >**** Access allowed: rahal is in ACL for specspo/dist. >cvs server: Pre-commit check failed >cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! > >Even though I have this file assigned to me. > >Regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA21kmHDRR6Cd0eSYRAv8KAKDv4I/HztbA89j8PIPKCvI3GCDgNwCffGqo >sskED+Jvb9a1If+khAJEnkc= >=GHCs >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From sarahs at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 00:16:03 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:16:03 +1000 Subject: Call to the RedHat CVS admins, Macedonian translation In-Reply-To: <1088092212.3888.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1088092212.3888.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1088122562.2147.12.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> mk.po files have been added to cvs repository. Regards, Sarah ?2004?06?25??01:50????????? ???????????? > Dear All, > > Our LUG has recently started translating the fedora packages to > Macedonian. We're about to finish the translations, but cannot update > the CVS as there are no previous mk.po files to update. Add/commit > return "no permission errors". > Please take the neccessary steps to help us synchronize the CVS with > macedonian translation files. > > Thank you on behalf of our LUG. > > Kind Regards, > Tomislav Markovski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From bgroh at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 01:45:21 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:45:21 +1000 Subject: module/lang released In-Reply-To: <40DB667D.8080502@redhat.com> References: <200406250043.52138.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DB667D.8080502@redhat.com> Message-ID: <40DB83B1.4060804@redhat.com> Hi All, some of you may receive emails stating that you had a certain module in excess of 48 hours, even though you didn't. If that's the case, simply ignore the email. We only now started tracking when somebody is taking a module. If you had it for a long period, please consider what's stated in the email though. We simply added a mechanism that allows us to release translators if they held a module for a certain period of time, without having done a commit. For the first run, I simply assumed the time of last commit as the time the module was taken, of course, I am not going to release anyone just now. :) But I will put it to discussion of what a good time period is? We already had some suggestions ranging from 24 hours to 1 week in normal development and 2 hours to 1 days towards the end of a release cycle. Contributions are very welcome! :) Thanks, Bernd From bgroh at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 02:46:13 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:46:13 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1088084266.2570.291.camel@deimos> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1087889599.2682.50.camel@sutty.mshome.net> <40D7E376.3050305@myrealbox.com> <40D7FE18.5000403@redhat.com> <1087899923.2707.104.camel@deimos> <40D8CC97.3000303@redhat.com> <1088060283.2570.114.camel@deimos> <40DA9ED9.2000703@redhat.com> <1088084266.2570.291.camel@deimos> Message-ID: <40DB91F5.3010207@redhat.com> Josep, >Just to summarize my position: As long as this system allows >unconsistent translations, I'll think it is flawed, and thus I'll oppose >to it (in a nice way). That I oppose to it doesn't mean I will not >respect it. > Point taken. But I believe every system allows inconsistent translations, as such, every system is flawed, no? ;) Of course, *iff* you have a really dedicated maintainer who QAs all translations before a commit and makes sure everything is consistent, this system actually works, I completely agree! :) >And yes, I think the translation of Fedora has been flawed since day >one, it's up to us to get it right. I was really surprised when I got >the CVS account at Red Hat for translations, without questioning or >hesitation from your side, I appreciate the trust, but it can also bring >undesired lateral effects, fortunately I'm a nice guy :) > >Finally, I believe that keeping the distribution consistent and coherent >is more important than getting a new translator started. > I'd even agree, to why I disagree with your position, I will come to in a minute. >Colophon: Who can tell if a translation is "right" or not? Or if it is >"consistent" or not? that will be hard... maybe looking at "previous >art", merit, or experience... Tough question, really, that's the weak >part of my argument. Probably a team of translators for the same >language would be able to decide what's "right", like in a democracy, as >long as anyone can join a translation team, of course :) > Agree. :) >>Believe me, this point is very well taken, but at the same time, you can >>watch who is translating what, and if you recognize a new translator, >>invite her/him to your team. Why does it always have to be the new >>translator who gets in contact with the group? I personally believe in >>making it as easy for people to get started as possible. Wouldn't it be >>easier for the group to send an invite? >> >> >> > >Right, if there's the case I (or someone else) will ask a new translator >to join us, of course. It is just that s/he might not want to do it, or >might not want to use the same terminology we've used for the rest of >the translations... then what? > Then what? Well, then we can talk to this person, and if s/he unwilling to use the "right" terminology, then we can think of disabling her/his account. Btw, I do translate 'Forward' with "Next" if 'Next' is meant, and not with "Forward", consistent or not! IMO, it's just plain wrong! ;) Just kidding. :) > One application says "Quit" the other >says "Exit"... This is the only concern I have, and as a solution I >only see enforcing (doh!) translation teams. But maybe that's not the >goal of Fedora Translation Project (FTP?, ouch), maybe the goal is just >to have the distro translated not consistent as well. > No, both is the goal. But, really, I much prefer to have one application say "Quit", and another one "Exit", than have either use the english term. Why should a user who always only uses program ("Quit") and never uses program ("Exit") care? And anyway, both are understandable, both are right in some respect and both have meaning to a user. And no, I am *not* arguing that I don't care whether translations are inconsistent or not, I do care a great deal, but I am arguing that I rather have an inconsistent, yet understandable, translation than none at all. *Iff* you have a dedicated maintainer who is willing to coordinate with such a great effort, and can manage that all translators agree on a certain (and not another) terminology, I completely agree with you, then even I believe it's a better way of doing things. But, I doubt it's the case for most of the languages. Some languages don't even have a translator yet, do we not give them access, because we don't speak xyz and nobody is there who could invite them? Some languages might have a lot of translators, but all of them are reluctant to really put that much effort in and be such a maintainer. I, personally, don't like the idea of having a system in place where it is required to have a great maintainer who does all these things, cos if a language doesn't have one, it may just die. No, really, I rather have people contribute unmaintained than not at all. And if there is such great maintainer, well, that is great, you have the option of being a maintainer, and if not for the entire language, for a module, or a group of modules. A maintainer has the additional right to release modules of translators, so they can excercise some level of control. And if somebody 'causes problems after that, well, then even I am happy to kick that person. > At least forcing the translator to commit himself to make a >translation that will be consistent with the rest of the translations >for a particular language. > I disagree. Asking her/him to do so, yes. And if s/he is unwilling to do so, and doesn't have a good reason of why, then we can indeed disable this persons access. > Just another example to illustrate what I mean: "log viewer" (the >application) appears in three or four different files: menus, dist, >anaconda and redhat-logviewer (iirc). All translations should use the >same translation of "log viewer" or we'll confuse the user, but four >different translators could use four different translations (yes it >could be possible!). > Sure it could be possible, but if you don't have a maintainer who makes the effort to really check *all* of these cases, then there's no difference really, is there? And it could also be possible, that all translators translate it the same way, maybe by discussing it, without having to go through a maintainer. Yes, it could be possible! > I don't know if Red Hat has a policy on how the interface to the user >should be, and in what way should it address the user, for instance if >the policy (if any) encourage to ask the user: "Please, press the >button", or to order: "Press the button", or at developer's will (which >I think would be inconsistent)... Thinks like this make a difference. >Our policy, to give yet another example, tells us to address the user as >"you" [polite you] ("ni" in Swedish), and orders from the user to the >computer are in imperative form. Now, being consistent with this is key. >If there's an application that doesn't follow the same style (or policy) >it will disturb the user, and will harm the distro (imo). I'm not saying >that ours is the best policy, I'm saying that it has to be consistent, >and I know you agree, but the new method doesn't guarantee that (or does >it?). > As you've said yourself, you know I agree. :) >I'll apply for maintainer of ca (Catalan), if no one objects. The web >page doesn't really tell what the role of a maintainer is, though, I >think it should be stated somewhere. So I wait until I know what I'm >messing with :) >Policy on how to become maintainer and how to depose one should be >stated too, probably. > Noted. A maintainer is, as opposed to the translator, a permanent (well, in theory) entity. The maintainer can commit at any time and release the assignment of a translator at any time, hence, keep someone from comitting. A maintainer is a person who is willing to take responsibility for the quality and consistency of a module, a group of modules or for an entire language. And while it is a good thing to have a maintainer, it is not a requirement. I know you think it should be, but that's exactly where we disagree. I believe a translation community can function well, even without having a designated maintainer, and that's what the system really is made for, to better manage the efforts of self-maintained translators. >I just took dist, and it looks kind of unfair to have my name as a >Translator, as we're, so far, 4 people working [slowly] on that file, >and I am probably the one that has contributed the less. But well, it's >something we can live with, I suppose :) > As said, the Translator field is not about getting credit, it's about knowing whom to contact regarding translation issues of a certain module, or finding out that a module is available and one can take the module and translate or fix things herself/himself. >Now, I know I seem to take this a bit religiously, and maybe I do, I >just want you to see the light and become a convert, then I shall give >you a place in the heaven of translationland :) > That's ok, and if you show me the scriptures in which I shall find the law that for every language such great maintainer is instantly found and either always holds this position, or if required at any time, another such great maintainer as replacement is instantly found, then I will invite you to detail these scriptures for me. :) Best Regards, Bernd >P.S.: I promised myself it would not be a long mail, but... here it >is... > Isn't it always like that! ;) From sarahs at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 03:29:15 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:29:15 +1000 Subject: === HELP! === In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088134155.2147.84.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Is this problem resolved? ?2004?06?23??18:07?Andrei Nestor??? > Hello, > > There seem to be some problems with my cvs account. Although I am > able to authenticate into the new system that's been set up, when I do so I > get a message saying "Unknown translator: dannutz". I have previously > deleted and then re-created my account, and I didn't receive the > confirmation message which leads me to believe that my account might be in > a strange inactive state. Can anyone help? > > Thanks, > Andrei > > PS: the account name is "dannutz" > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From bgroh at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 03:42:13 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:42:13 +1000 Subject: === HELP! === In-Reply-To: <1088134155.2147.84.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1088134155.2147.84.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <40DB9F15.4050303@redhat.com> Sorry, but where exactly do you get this message? Sarah Wang schrieb: >Is this problem resolved? > >?2004?06?23??18:07?Andrei Nestor??? > > >>Hello, >> >> There seem to be some problems with my cvs account. Although I am >>able to authenticate into the new system that's been set up, when I do so I >>get a message saying "Unknown translator: dannutz". I have previously >>deleted and then re-created my account, and I didn't receive the >>confirmation message which leads me to believe that my account might be in >>a strange inactive state. Can anyone help? >> >>Thanks, >> Andrei >> >>PS: the account name is "dannutz" >> >> >>-- >>Fedora-trans-list mailing list >>Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list >> >> > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From sarahs at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 05:04:53 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:04:53 +1000 Subject: Recent discussions Message-ID: <1088139893.2147.182.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Hi all, I have to say that the past two or three days is the most exciting period of this mailing list since Fedora Translation Project started :) It's great to have so many people join the discussion and give their opinions from different perspectives. I'd like to explain a few things raised among the discussions. 1. About CVS access. Someone mentioned that it was too easy to get a CVS account. True. Currently anyone who has a valid email address can be granted CVS access to the commit locale of his/her choice. It was because in the early phase of the project we'd like to encourage people to participate and to start forming teams. There is no way to know or qualify people - on what basis should we give someone access to cvs while denying others? If the person is a GNOME or KDE coordinator then he/she should be the default coordinator for Fedora? There is no convincing formula. I believe by adopting an open policy then close the loopholes and fixing problems as they arise will maximise the community participation. (BTW, your cvs account has very limited rights, so don't even think of misuse it ;) ). It is easier to add features and put limitations on accounts than to remove features/restrictions. In the future process development, we may be able to have different level of cvs accounts. For example, a proofreader's account may have more rights than a new translator's account. 2. Coordinator's role I believe a coordinator's role is not *to control* how things should be but to stay *in control* of how things are. People participate one project naturally form groups. Some are small - relatively easy to coordinate and come to a resolution. Some groups are quite large with hundreds of members - it's quite a task to keep things organised and come to a consensus on discussions. For any languages that don't have a separate mailing list yet, I'd like to see the translators of the same language discover each other and form a group. If there are five or more people in the group, just elect your own coordinator and send me an email to request a separate mailing list. 3. Tools vs. Teamwork Tools will never eliminate the need of teamwork. The new status page is designed to ease the work involved in coordination. For smaller groups, it may be very effective to notify through mailing list about the work he/she is undertaking, but for groups with hundreds of members it's hard to track who is doing what through mailing list notification. It may seem cumbersome to have to go through take/release when you know you are the only translator out there :) but it may not be the case tomorrow, someone else may signed up to be a translator and want to help out. There are lots of things tools cannot replace teamwork, such as quality control, vocabulary consistency etc, but tools (or we hope to develop/modify tools) could help with those activities. The status page or any future enhancement is by no means a replacement for teamwork. 4. Red Hat people Fedora project is Red Hat sponsored open source project, naturally you will see plenty of people with "redhat.com" email address. That doesn't mean anything said by anyone at redhat.com is official. Like everyone here, he/she is also a participant/contributor. Fedora is a community project and anyone participate the project should respect the community, Red Hat people is no exception. Last but not the least, I know it's pretty hard to stay cool in a heated discussion but please keep in mind when you post to this mailing list that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and we may have different approaches but we all have the same goal. All constructive suggestions, debates, and criticisms are welcome in this list. Sarah From razvan.vilt at linux360.ro Fri Jun 25 06:56:09 2004 From: razvan.vilt at linux360.ro (Razvan Corneliu C.R. "d3vi1" VILT) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:56:09 +0300 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406250043.52138.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <200406250043.52138.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <1088146569.8157.4.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 00:43 +0200, Youcef Rabah Rahal wrote: > Testing ar.po... > **** Access allowed: rahal is in ACL for rhn-applet. > Testing ar.po... > [specspo/dist/ar.po] is not assigned to you. > **** Access allowed: rahal is in ACL for specspo/dist. > cvs server: Pre-commit check failed > cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! > > Even though I have this file assigned to me. > I seem to have the same problem with timezones. [root at d3vi1 timezones]# cvs ci -m "Minor Corrections... A few fuzzy messages" ro.po Enter passphrase for key '/root/.ssh/id_dsa': Testing ro.po... [redhat-config-date/po/timezones/ro.po] is not assigned to you. **** Access allowed: razvanv is in ACL for redhat-config-date/po/ timezones. cvs server: Pre-commit check failed cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! And I've tried to release-it and take-it a few times over. It just doesn't help. I've tried also taking redhat-config-date. I anyone has a clue... I'll be more that happy. Cheers, d3vi1 R?zvan Corneliu VILT e-mail:razvan.vilt at linux360.ro GPG:http://d3vi1.linux360.ro/public-keys/ www: http://d3vi1.linux360.ro/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 1707 bytes Desc: not available URL: From lanurmi at iki.fi Fri Jun 25 07:04:40 2004 From: lanurmi at iki.fi (Lauri Nurmi) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:04:40 +0300 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40D8D50F.8080505@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> <1087944558.4669.4086.camel@daim> <40D8D50F.8080505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1088147080.29355.50.camel@endeavour.koti> ke, 2004-06-23 kello 03:55, Bernd Groh kirjoitti: > Christian Rose schrieb: > > >Thus it's not really exciting to see that any random bozo can suddenly > >take over control over a Swedish translation and fill in dirty words. > >I'm not amused. > > > > Do you want me to not give someone access because s/he's got a danish > email address and the domain name is a dirty word? Regardless of how > fluent this person may be in swedish, and how much this person would > like to participate? Do you know for a fact that this persons > translations are bad? Making a good translation is not as easy as many people would think. The translator needs to have very good skills both in English, AND his/her own language. It is not enough, if you know English pretty well and know how to use an editor. Also, being very eager to participate does not mean that one has the capability for it. The majority of people probably could not make a good translation if they tried. Therefore, it is safe to assume that a newcomer translator who pops out of nowhere is not capable of translating well enough. I am not saying this is always the case. Of course there can be newcomers who are good right from the beginning. The newcomer does have the right to participate. However, if such a person enters a project, and starts committing bad translations (ie. inconsistent, grammatically bad, etc), it can lead to some consequences. Assuming there have been an active team/person doing the translation, they may become annoyed seeing some group of untalented newcomers messing with their translations. Being annoyed, they may dump the whole project and let the newcomers continue. Which could lead to general deterioration of the translation. This, in turn, could lead to end users choosing another language, as they cannot stand the translation. The scenario which I described above is a rather pessimistic one, yes. In general, new translators are welcome to participate. Still, in my opinion, they should at least be asked to write to the mailinglist of their language before they start, or to contact the previous translator of the file. From sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com Fri Jun 25 07:47:36 2004 From: sharuzzaman at myrealbox.com (Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:47:36 +0800 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1088147080.29355.50.camel@endeavour.koti> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406221027.17982.rahal@arabeyes.org> <1087944558.4669.4086.camel@daim> <40D8D50F.8080505@redhat.com> <1088147080.29355.50.camel@endeavour.koti> Message-ID: <40DBD898.5060804@myrealbox.com> Lauri Nurmi wrote: > Making a good translation is not as easy as many people would think. The > translator needs to have very good skills both in English, AND his/her > own language. It is not enough, if you know English pretty well and know > how to use an editor. Also, being very eager to participate does not > mean that one has the capability for it. The majority of people probably > could not make a good translation if they tried. > > Therefore, it is safe to assume that a newcomer translator who pops out > of nowhere is not capable of translating well enough. I am not saying > this is always the case. Of course there can be newcomers who are good > right from the beginning. > > The newcomer does have the right to participate. However, if such a > person enters a project, and starts committing bad translations (ie. > inconsistent, grammatically bad, etc), it can lead to some consequences. > > Assuming there have been an active team/person doing the translation, > they may become annoyed seeing some group of untalented newcomers > messing with their translations. Being annoyed, they may dump the whole > project and let the newcomers continue. Which could lead to general > deterioration of the translation. This, in turn, could lead to end users > choosing another language, as they cannot stand the translation. > > The scenario which I described above is a rather pessimistic one, yes. > In general, new translators are welcome to participate. Still, in my > opinion, they should at least be asked to write to the mailinglist of > their language before they start, or to contact the previous translator > of the file. > Good point here. I would like to suggest another enhancement to the system. List out the name and email of people who are currently actively translating for a particular language. Example for Malay language, its me and Hasbullah Pit. It will help newcomer to seek guidance and information regarding the translation process and quality control. A simple team page (like the one in KDE) would be better. ----- Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan From rahal at arabeyes.org Fri Jun 25 07:54:04 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:54:04 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40DB63CB.9030002@redhat.com> References: <200406250043.52138.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DB63CB.9030002@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406250954.05965.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 25 June 2004 01:29, Bernd Groh wrote: > Hi Youcef, > > sorry 'bout that, It'll be fixed asap. After all, you've got the module, > so you should be able to commit! ;) > > Bernd Thanks, fixed now. - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA29ocHDRR6Cd0eSYRAgjKAJ0cJhewt4k6R+ZJoQfSfsOhvSTVNACgmhiD rJFugL56zGSt+P8c/cBptFI= =hczB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Fri Jun 25 08:39:16 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:39:16 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40DB91F5.3010207@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1088084266.2570.291.camel@deimos> <40DB91F5.3010207@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406251039.17714.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On Friday 25 June 2004 04:46, Bernd Groh wrote: [...] > Then what? Well, then we can talk to this person, and if s/he unwilling > to use the "right" terminology, then we can think of disabling her/his > account. Btw, I do translate 'Forward' with "Next" if 'Next' is meant, > and not with "Forward", consistent or not! IMO, it's just plain wrong! > ;) Just kidding. :) Not sure this is consistent with the rest. How do you define the 'right' terminology if there's no precise framework ? Why should someone be prevented from translation if his translations are correct yet using another terminology ? [...] > Noted. A maintainer is, as opposed to the translator, a permanent (well, > in theory) entity. The maintainer can commit at any time and release the > assignment of a translator at any time, hence, keep someone from > comitting. A maintainer is a person who is willing to take > responsibility for the quality and consistency of a module, a group of > modules or for an entire language. And while it is a good thing to have > a maintainer, it is not a requirement. I know you think it should be, > but that's exactly where we disagree. I believe a translation community > can function well, even without having a designated maintainer, and > that's what the system really is made for, to better manage the efforts > of self-maintained translators. Yes. A translation community can indeed function very well without having an established team and/or maintainer and this is proven everyday. However, when there are teams in place, they need to be considered. A question: this new system has been installed after a request from the community, right ? How come many (if not all ?) people on this list are surprised ? ;) I don't remember a post on this list introducing the new system nor someone posting to request it ? Or are you referring to another 'community' ? Some URLs would help. Sorry if I missed something. Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2+S0HDRR6Cd0eSYRAvo8AJ9ji4qtL2OgbPRs6+hgRR8+nMLBAwCfW8Um oS8OP3jCdfz61Eiz+4xafTg= =aFu4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Fri Jun 25 08:43:20 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:43:20 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1088147080.29355.50.camel@endeavour.koti> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <40D8D50F.8080505@redhat.com> <1088147080.29355.50.camel@endeavour.koti> Message-ID: <200406251043.21636.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 25 June 2004 09:04, Lauri Nurmi wrote: > Making a good translation is not as easy as many people would think. The > translator needs to have very good skills both in English, AND his/her > own language. It is not enough, if you know English pretty well and know > how to use an editor. Also, being very eager to participate does not > mean that one has the capability for it. The majority of people probably > could not make a good translation if they tried. > > Therefore, it is safe to assume that a newcomer translator who pops out > of nowhere is not capable of translating well enough. I am not saying > this is always the case. Of course there can be newcomers who are good > right from the beginning. > > The newcomer does have the right to participate. However, if such a > person enters a project, and starts committing bad translations (ie. > inconsistent, grammatically bad, etc), it can lead to some consequences. > > Assuming there have been an active team/person doing the translation, > they may become annoyed seeing some group of untalented newcomers > messing with their translations. Being annoyed, they may dump the whole > project and let the newcomers continue. Which could lead to general > deterioration of the translation. This, in turn, could lead to end users > choosing another language, as they cannot stand the translation. > > The scenario which I described above is a rather pessimistic one, yes. > In general, new translators are welcome to participate. Still, in my > opinion, they should at least be asked to write to the mailinglist of > their language before they start, or to contact the previous translator > of the file. Absolutely. Agreed 100% ;-) Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2+WoHDRR6Cd0eSYRAo7BAJsFh7egw9HyCai3ylMZMYeM/1eVuwCffM2j cAJNa4U0L1tupvXesv304NM= =Y7ZF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Fri Jun 25 08:56:20 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:56:20 +0200 Subject: Recent discussions In-Reply-To: <1088139893.2147.182.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1088139893.2147.182.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406251056.21649.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 25 June 2004 07:04, Sarah Wang wrote: > Hi all, Hi, > I have to say that the past two or three days is the most exciting > period of this mailing list since Fedora Translation Project started :) > It's great to have so many people join the discussion and give their > opinions from different perspectives. Indeed :-) > I'd like to explain a few things raised among the discussions. > > 1. About CVS access. > Someone mentioned that it was too easy to get a CVS account. True. > Currently anyone who has a valid email address can be granted CVS access > to the commit locale of his/her choice. It was because in the early > phase of the project we'd like to encourage people to participate and to > start forming teams. There is no way to know or qualify people - on what > basis should we give someone access to cvs while denying others? If the > person is a GNOME or KDE coordinator then he/she should be the default > coordinator for Fedora? There is no convincing formula. I believe by > adopting an open policy then close the loopholes and fixing problems as > they arise will maximise the community participation. (BTW, your cvs > account has very limited rights, so don't even think of misuse it ;) ). > It is easier to add features and put limitations on accounts than to > remove features/restrictions. In the future process development, we may > be able to have different level of cvs accounts. For example, a > proofreader's account may have more rights than a new translator's > account. Sounds reasonable to me. > 2. Coordinator's role > I believe a coordinator's role is not *to control* how things should be > but to stay *in control* of how things are. People participate one > project naturally form groups. Some are small - relatively easy to > coordinate and come to a resolution. Some groups are quite large with > hundreds of members - it's quite a task to keep things organised and > come to a consensus on discussions. For any languages that don't have a > separate mailing list yet, I'd like to see the translators of the same > language discover each other and form a group. If there are five or more > people in the group, just elect your own coordinator and send me an > email to request a separate mailing list. BTW, we are more than 5 translators, yet we don't have an 'ar' mailing list. We do all our posts via 'doc at arabeyes dot org'. > 3. Tools vs. Teamwork > Tools will never eliminate the need of teamwork. The new status page is > designed to ease the work involved in coordination. For smaller groups, > it may be very effective to notify through mailing list about the work > he/she is undertaking, but for groups with hundreds of members it's hard > to track who is doing what through mailing list notification. It may > seem cumbersome to have to go through take/release when you know you are > the only translator out there :) but it may not be the case tomorrow, > someone else may signed up to be a translator and want to help out. > There are lots of things tools cannot replace teamwork, such as quality > control, vocabulary consistency etc, but tools (or we hope to > develop/modify tools) could help with those activities. The status page > or any future enhancement is by no means a replacement for teamwork. > > 4. Red Hat people > Fedora project is Red Hat sponsored open source project, naturally you > will see plenty of people with "redhat.com" email address. That doesn't > mean anything said by anyone at redhat.com is official. Like everyone here, > he/she is also a participant/contributor. Fedora is a community project > and anyone participate the project should respect the community, Red Hat > people is no exception. Noted :-) > Last but not the least, I know it's pretty hard to stay cool in a heated > discussion but please keep in mind when you post to this mailing list > that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion and we may have different > approaches but we all have the same goal. All constructive suggestions, > debates, and criticisms are welcome in this list. Fully agreed. Thank you Sarah for this summary, which sounds very fine to me :-) There are still however some open questions: 1- Why no one on this list seemed to be aware of the new system ? [critisism] :-) 2- What about the teams/maintainers who are already in place ? When will you elect the new maintainers ? And how will that be done ? Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2+i0HDRR6Cd0eSYRAgqUAJ9pScpFgHA6woUuTt07YS3elf9TXgCgj3Kg sde9PkJVWj8H9ksvqr5/z6s= =z6ou -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Fri Jun 25 09:03:20 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 11:03:20 +0200 Subject: module/lang released In-Reply-To: <40DB83B1.4060804@redhat.com> References: <200406250043.52138.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DB667D.8080502@redhat.com> <40DB83B1.4060804@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406251103.22285.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 25 June 2004 03:45, Bernd Groh wrote: > Hi All, Hi, > some of you may receive emails stating that you had a certain module in > excess of 48 hours, even though you didn't. If that's the case, simply > ignore the email. I'm in that case ;-) > We only now started tracking when somebody is taking a > module. If you had it for a long period, please consider what's stated > in the email though. > > We simply added a mechanism that allows us to release translators if > they held a module for a certain period of time, without having done a > commit. > > For the first run, I simply assumed the time of last commit as the time > the module was taken, of course, I am not going to release anyone just > now. :) > > But I will put it to discussion of what a good time period is? We > already had some suggestions ranging from 24 hours to 1 week in normal > development and 2 hours to 1 days towards the end of a release cycle. > Contributions are very welcome! :) I would say as long as no one 'claims' the module, there shouldn't be an auto-release mechanism. For example, if someone works on a file and forgets to commit it, and someone claims the module, he/she will have time to commit his/her changes before the other person [Take]s the module, rather then auto-releasing it and loosing the work done (above-all if we're taling about 2 hours time ;-). Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA2+pZHDRR6Cd0eSYRAo5oAKDC/cqu752TdrI3118yX/D1bp8C2ACgulGO 4v/bAyqZ+vNEgk73+3FxxH4= =9L2S -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From andrei.nestor at ro.ibm.com Fri Jun 25 09:14:07 2004 From: andrei.nestor at ro.ibm.com (Andrei Nestor) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:14:07 +0300 Subject: === HELP! === In-Reply-To: <40DB9F15.4050303@redhat.com> Message-ID: > Sorry, but where exactly do you get this message? I used to get it when i was trying to [Take] a module. > > Sarah Wang schrieb: > > >Is this problem resolved? The problem is resolved. Thank you again. From bgroh at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 10:05:00 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:05:00 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406251039.17714.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1088084266.2570.291.camel@deimos> <40DB91F5.3010207@redhat.com> <200406251039.17714.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40DBF8CC.4090709@redhat.com> Youcef, you're kidding, right? >>Then what? Well, then we can talk to this person, and if s/he unwilling >>to use the "right" terminology, then we can think of disabling her/his >>account. Btw, I do translate 'Forward' with "Next" if 'Next' is meant, >>and not with "Forward", consistent or not! IMO, it's just plain wrong! >>;) Just kidding. :) >> >> > >Not sure this is consistent with the rest. How do you define the 'right' >terminology if there's no precise framework ? Why should someone be prevented >from translation if his translations are correct yet using another >terminology ? > Wasn't your voice one of the loudest raising the issue of consistency? Since I believe that the comments made concerning consistency are very valid, I am suggesting solutions on how some of the problems can be handled with the given system. If you don't think someone should be prevented from doing translations that are correct, but inconsistent with everything else, what exactly were you on about previously? >>Noted. A maintainer is, as opposed to the translator, a permanent (well, >>in theory) entity. The maintainer can commit at any time and release the >>assignment of a translator at any time, hence, keep someone from >>comitting. A maintainer is a person who is willing to take >>responsibility for the quality and consistency of a module, a group of >>modules or for an entire language. And while it is a good thing to have >>a maintainer, it is not a requirement. I know you think it should be, >>but that's exactly where we disagree. I believe a translation community >>can function well, even without having a designated maintainer, and >>that's what the system really is made for, to better manage the efforts >>of self-maintained translators. >> >> > >Yes. A translation community can indeed function very well without having an >established team and/or maintainer and this is proven everyday. However, when >there are teams in place, they need to be considered. > Yes, and I believe they are. If a coordinator of an active community (as in the group of people having the common interest of wanting to translate Fedora into their language, including "newer" translators) who has the support of most of the members of that language group requests to be a maintainer, this request is not denied. >A question: this new system has been installed after a request from the >community, right ? How come many (if not all ?) people on this list are >surprised ? ;) I don't remember a post on this list introducing the new >system nor someone posting to request it ? Or are you referring to another >'community' ? > >Some URLs would help. Sorry if I missed something. > Please, don't you think you're going a little off track here? Is that your idea of constructive criticism, or are you simply on some kind of mission now? Why do you ask me? Why don't you ask the people suggesting to lock files to disallow two translators from comitting at the same time, since that's the main thing that's new. And I still believe their reasoning to be very valid. Regards, Bernd >Regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA2+S0HDRR6Cd0eSYRAvo8AJ9ji4qtL2OgbPRs6+hgRR8+nMLBAwCfW8Um >oS8OP3jCdfz61Eiz+4xafTg= >=aFu4 >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 10:11:26 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:11:26 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <1088146569.8157.4.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> References: <200406250043.52138.rahal@arabeyes.org> <1088146569.8157.4.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> Message-ID: <40DBFA4E.6050507@redhat.com> Did it work for you? Razvan Corneliu C.R. "d3vi1" VILT schrieb: > On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 00:43 +0200, Youcef Rabah Rahal wrote: > >>Testing ar.po... >>**** Access allowed: rahal is in ACL for rhn-applet. >>Testing ar.po... >>[specspo/dist/ar.po] is not assigned to you. >>**** Access allowed: rahal is in ACL for specspo/dist. >>cvs server: Pre-commit check failed >>cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! >> >>Even though I have this file assigned to me. >> >> >> > > I seem to have the same problem with timezones. > > [root at d3vi1 timezones]# cvs ci -m "Minor Corrections... A few fuzzy > messages" ro.po > Enter passphrase for key '/root/.ssh/id_dsa': > Testing ro.po... > [redhat-config-date/po/timezones/ro.po] is not assigned to you. > **** Access allowed: razvanv is in ACL for > redhat-config-date/po/timezones. > cvs server: Pre-commit check failed > cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! > > And I've tried to release-it and take-it a few times over. It just > doesn't help. I've tried also taking redhat-config-date. > I anyone has a clue... I'll be more that happy. > > Cheers, > d3vi1 > > > R?zvan Corneliu VILT > e-mail:_razvan.vilt at linux360.ro _ > GPG:_http://d3vi1.linux360.ro/public-keys/_ www: > _http://d3vi1.linux360.ro/_ > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From tome at users.ossm.org.mk Fri Jun 25 10:20:27 2004 From: tome at users.ossm.org.mk (=?koi8-r?Q?=F4=CF=CD=C9=D3=CC=C1=D7_?= =?koi8-r?Q?=ED=C1=D2=CB=CF=D7=D3=CB=C9?=) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:20:27 +0200 Subject: Call to the RedHat CVS admins, Macedonian translation In-Reply-To: <1088122562.2147.12.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1088092212.3888.8.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1088122562.2147.12.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1088158827.2765.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> On ???, 2004-06-25 at 02:16, Sarah Wang wrote: > mk.po files have been added to cvs repository. > Thank you for the prompt reponse. Regards, -- ???????? ????????? We're mortal -- which is to say, we're ignorant, stupid, and sinful -- but those are only handicaps. Our pride is that nevertheless, now and then, we do our best. A few times we succeed. What more dare we ask for? -- Ensign Flandry -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From rahal at arabeyes.org Fri Jun 25 10:43:56 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:43:56 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40DBF8CC.4090709@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406251039.17714.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DBF8CC.4090709@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406251243.57389.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 25 June 2004 12:05, Bernd Groh wrote: > Youcef, > > you're kidding, right? Dear Bernd, A statement like the previous one does conflict with the idea I have of a constructive and professional discussion. > >Not sure this is consistent with the rest. How do you define the 'right' > >terminology if there's no precise framework ? Why should someone be > > prevented from translation if his translations are correct yet using > > another terminology ? > > Wasn't your voice one of the loudest raising the issue of consistency? > Since I believe that the comments made concerning consistency are very > valid, I am suggesting solutions on how some of the problems can be > handled with the given system. If you don't think someone should be > prevented from doing translations that are correct, but inconsistent > with everything else, what exactly were you on about previously? I am still defending consistency and team work. I simply say that refusing access to someone who is doing _correct_ translations but with a different terminology than a group who is working on the same language, is not coherent with _your_ previous statements and the new system. And hence the inconsistence in the system itself. > >Yes. A translation community can indeed function very well without having > > an established team and/or maintainer and this is proven everyday. > > However, when there are teams in place, they need to be considered. > > Yes, and I believe they are. If a coordinator of an active community (as > in the group of people having the common interest of wanting to > translate Fedora into their language, including "newer" translators) who > has the support of most of the members of that language group requests > to be a maintainer, this request is not denied. What if the members of that language are simply not subscribed to this list ? ;) I sent an email to i18n at redhat.com 2 days ago and didn't get any answer about my application to be a maintainer. > >A question: this new system has been installed after a request from the > >community, right ? How come many (if not all ?) people on this list are > >surprised ? ;) I don't remember a post on this list introducing the new > >system nor someone posting to request it ? Or are you referring to another > >'community' ? > > > >Some URLs would help. Sorry if I missed something. > > Please, don't you think you're going a little off track here? Is that > your idea of constructive criticism, or are you simply on some kind of > mission now? Why do you ask me? Why don't you ask the people suggesting > to lock files to disallow two translators from comitting at the same > time, since that's the main thing that's new. And I still believe their > reasoning to be very valid. Not off track, sorry. This is a _natural_ question. You stated previously that the new system was suggested by the community ? Nobody seemed to question that though many of the posts (if not all) I read note that their authors are rather suprised by the new system. Again, as this new system simply conflicts with what was already in place, with what other projects do, and with what we (as translators) have been familiar with (until two days ago), I'm simply asking, when, by who, and where this request was made ? What community are you referring to ? As far as I know, people interested by Fedora translation (the community) are subscribed to this list, yet I never read any reference about this subject. Should we be subscribed to some other list ? It shouldn't take long to answer these questions. A URL should not be hard to paste. If you want me to accept something, please explain it to me first... I'm not asking more than how things really happened. If I missed something than please remind me by pointing me to the right place. PS: You can add that to _constructive critisism_ of communication among the Fedora community. If you call for critics, but you can't accept them, then, well... Best regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3AHsHDRR6Cd0eSYRAuMoAJ9wwK/CxQfK8dOfm084qS+cxzKLCwCggj9i iJV9iABVHr/St/xS40WNJvk= =/A5A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bgroh at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 12:10:15 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 22:10:15 +1000 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <200406251243.57389.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406251039.17714.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DBF8CC.4090709@redhat.com> <200406251243.57389.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <40DC1627.2030102@redhat.com> Dear Youcef, Youcef Rabah Rahal schrieb: >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >Hash: SHA1 > >On Friday 25 June 2004 12:05, Bernd Groh wrote: > > >>Youcef, >> >>you're kidding, right? >> >> > >Dear Bernd, > >A statement like the previous one does conflict with the idea I have of a >constructive and professional discussion. > > > >>>Not sure this is consistent with the rest. How do you define the 'right' >>>terminology if there's no precise framework ? Why should someone be >>>prevented from translation if his translations are correct yet using >>>another terminology ? >>> >>> >>Wasn't your voice one of the loudest raising the issue of consistency? >>Since I believe that the comments made concerning consistency are very >>valid, I am suggesting solutions on how some of the problems can be >>handled with the given system. If you don't think someone should be >>prevented from doing translations that are correct, but inconsistent >>with everything else, what exactly were you on about previously? >> >> > >I am still defending consistency and team work. I simply say that refusing >access to someone who is doing _correct_ translations but with a different >terminology than a group who is working on the same language, is not coherent >with _your_ previous statements and the new system. And hence the >inconsistence in the system itself. > And you're telling me you're not kidding? I am in favour of consistency and teamwork, I simply favour inconsistent translations over none. I do not refuse someone who is doing _correct_ translations with a different terminology access, neither I ever will be. But if I'd see that maintainers put in a lot of effort to keep translations consistent, and one member would, even after having been reminded, not be willing to adapt to a commonly agreed on terminology, I'd fulfill the maintainers request on suspending, and if required disabling someones access. This is me taking the comments made about consistency issues seriously, nothing more. And while I do not see where I am incoherent, even if I would become incoherent, because I listen to what the community is saying, frankly speaking, I wouldn't even care (on a side note, you're not the sole speaker of the community). >>>Yes. A translation community can indeed function very well without having >>>an established team and/or maintainer and this is proven everyday. >>>However, when there are teams in place, they need to be considered. >>> >>> >>Yes, and I believe they are. If a coordinator of an active community (as >>in the group of people having the common interest of wanting to >>translate Fedora into their language, including "newer" translators) who >>has the support of most of the members of that language group requests >>to be a maintainer, this request is not denied. >> >> > >What if the members of that language are simply not subscribed to this >list ? ;) I sent an email to i18n at redhat.com 2 days ago and didn't get any >answer about my application to be a maintainer. > Well, maybe the people making these decisions haven't decided yet? Btw, I have received more emails from arabic speaking members not supporting you being the maintainer of all modules than I have received emails in support of you. I invite these people to send you an email directly, or state their opinion on list, but even if they chose not to do so, their opinion is heard. >>>A question: this new system has been installed after a request from the >>>community, right ? How come many (if not all ?) people on this list are >>>surprised ? ;) I don't remember a post on this list introducing the new >>>system nor someone posting to request it ? Or are you referring to another >>>'community' ? >>> >>>Some URLs would help. Sorry if I missed something. >>> >>> >>Please, don't you think you're going a little off track here? Is that >>your idea of constructive criticism, or are you simply on some kind of >>mission now? Why do you ask me? Why don't you ask the people suggesting >>to lock files to disallow two translators from comitting at the same >>time, since that's the main thing that's new. And I still believe their >>reasoning to be very valid. >> >> > >Not off track, sorry. This is a _natural_ question. You stated previously that >the new system was suggested by the community ? Nobody seemed to question >that though many of the posts (if not all) I read note that their authors are >rather suprised by the new system. > Yes, it surprised me too. But maybe the ones preferring the new system simply didn't have any reason to speak. People tend to voice their opinions more if things aren't the way they want them to be, I am exactly the same. >Again, as this new system simply conflicts with what was already in place, >with what other projects do > Why is that again? >, and with what we (as translators) have been >familiar with (until two days ago), I'm simply asking, when, by who, and >where this request was made ? What community are you referring to ? As far as >I know, people interested by Fedora translation (the community) are >subscribed to this list, yet I never read any reference about this subject. >Should we be subscribed to some other list ? > Well, we have individual language lists too, all of which are part of Fedora. As far as I remember came most requests out of the french and brazilian-portuguese communities, is that right? Anyone? And really, most emails of critique weren't really criticizing the new system, the new system merely made people aware again that everyone can commit. But that's not really a fault of the new system, or is it now? >It shouldn't take long to answer these questions. A URL should not be hard to >paste. If you want me to accept something, please explain it to me first... >I'm not asking more than how things really happened. If I missed something >than please remind me by pointing me to the right place. > Ok, can somebody please do that? Please? :) >PS: You can add that to _constructive critisism_ of communication among the >Fedora community. If you call for critics, but you can't accept them, then, >well... > Why, oh why, is your "criticism" the only one I can't accept? In response to other emails, I even said, and I quote: "I simply felt it was the right thing to do. I could have been wrong.". Regards, Bernd >Best regards, > >- -- >Youcef R. Rahal >Arabeyes.org >http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) > >iD8DBQFA3AHsHDRR6Cd0eSYRAuMoAJ9wwK/CxQfK8dOfm084qS+cxzKLCwCggj9i >iJV9iABVHr/St/xS40WNJvk= >=/A5A >-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 13:06:53 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:06:53 +1000 Subject: [Fwd: Returned mail: see transcript for details] Message-ID: <40DC236D.10007@redhat.com> Seems like the address had a typo. Cheers, Bernd -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 09:04:55 -0400 Size: 9379 URL: From rahal at arabeyes.org Fri Jun 25 13:49:51 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:49:51 +0200 Subject: Annoucement: New translation status page is installed In-Reply-To: <40DC1627.2030102@redhat.com> References: <1087874101.17780.230.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406251243.57389.rahal@arabeyes.org> <40DC1627.2030102@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406251550.04591.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 25 June 2004 14:10, Bernd Groh wrote: > >I am still defending consistency and team work. I simply say that refusing > >access to someone who is doing _correct_ translations but with a different > >terminology than a group who is working on the same language, is not > > coherent with _your_ previous statements and the new system. And hence > > the inconsistence in the system itself. > > And you're telling me you're not kidding? Again, no. And again, let's avoid that. > I am in favour of consistency > and teamwork, I simply favour inconsistent translations over none. I do > not refuse someone who is doing _correct_ translations with a different > terminology access, neither I ever will be. But if I'd see that > maintainers put in a lot of effort to keep translations consistent, and > one member would, even after having been reminded, not be willing to > adapt to a commonly agreed on terminology, I'd fulfill the maintainers > request on suspending, and if required disabling someones access. This > is me taking the comments made about consistency issues seriously, > nothing more. And while I do not see where I am incoherent, The incoherence is in the fact of saying that everyone is free to translate without joining in the teams in place, yet his account may be suspended if he doesnt' abide by the team's rules... Why do the team's views prevail on the individual's ones ? How do you decide which one is better ? So, finally, new comers will be obliged to join the teams, no ? Again, this is no sarcasm, no irony. These are objective questions, that need clear and non-ambiguous answers if we have to avoid issues in the future. > even if I > would become incoherent, because I listen to what the community is > saying, frankly speaking, I wouldn't even care (on a side note, you're > not the sole speaker of the community). I'm not the sole speaker, I never stated the contrary. I'm simply stating concerns that many others (on this very list !) have expressed. I don't want to speak on their behalf though. > Well, maybe the people making these decisions haven't decided yet? I thought you were in charge of such decisions. Who is then ? > Btw, > I have received more emails from arabic speaking members not supporting > you being the maintainer of all modules than I have received emails in > support of you. I invite these people to send you an email directly, or > state their opinion on list, but even if they chose not to do so, their > opinion is heard. Bernd, are you really trying to drag me into a if-you're-running-out-of-arguments-then-try-to-discredit-your-interlocutor type of debate ? Speaking about your other emails, you keep reading 'kidding' when there's none. You keep reading sarcasm when I'm serious. You said I was on a 'mission'. What mission ??!! I'm only concerned about the work of the team I've been coordinating, and any new work that may be done in the future in the current framework, if we are to continue. So please, let's avoid these easy-to-decalare, hard-to-justify statements. I think I asked some clear questions, which you keep avoiding to answer. Rather than that, you're going off-track. So, even though your emails say the contrary, I certainly hope that's not your intention. Please, no need to answer me on the above paragraph, let's discuss and focus on the the real issues. > >Not off track, sorry. This is a _natural_ question. You stated previously > > that the new system was suggested by the community ? Nobody seemed to > > question that though many of the posts (if not all) I read note that > > their authors are rather suprised by the new system. > > Yes, it surprised me too. But maybe the ones preferring the new system > simply didn't have any reason to speak. People tend to voice their > opinions more if things aren't the way they want them to be, I am > exactly the same. Then, I'll be glad to hear positive opinions. > >Again, as this new system simply conflicts with what was already in place, > >with what other projects do > > Why is that again? That's the central point ! > >, and with what we (as translators) have been > >familiar with (until two days ago), I'm simply asking, when, by who, and > >where this request was made ? What community are you referring to ? As far > > as I know, people interested by Fedora translation (the community) are > > subscribed to this list, yet I never read any reference about this > > subject. Should we be subscribed to some other list ? > > Well, we have individual language lists too, all of which are part of > Fedora. As far as I remember came most requests out of the french and > brazilian-portuguese communities, is that right? Anyone? > > And really, most emails of critique weren't really criticizing the new > system, the new system merely made people aware again that everyone can > commit. But that's not really a fault of the new system, or is it now? The way you explained it, it's the fault of the new system. > >It shouldn't take long to answer these questions. A URL should not be hard > > to paste. If you want me to accept something, please explain it to me > > first... I'm not asking more than how things really happened. If I missed > > something than please remind me by pointing me to the right place. > > Ok, can somebody please do that? Please? :) That's what dragging us off-track the most. If you clearly answer it (it would take you a second), it will close the debate. In another post, Josep said that this system is fine _assuming_ it was suggested by the community. I'm asking to see that suggestion. For now, I'll I'm reading is people (not all of course) reluctant to adopt it. > >PS: You can add that to _constructive critisism_ of communication among > > the Fedora community. If you call for critics, but you can't accept them, > > then, well... > > Why, oh why, is your "criticism" the only one I can't accept? I can't answer this question, can I ? And your statement is rather unjustified... > In > response to other emails, I even said, and I quote: "I simply felt it > was the right thing to do. I could have been wrong.". Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3C1/HDRR6Cd0eSYRAtfTAKDZ0KLnjI/FA1chMqyXQVruEBgH2wCgtkbl 3p12KvgQTsq2l/j76XgtzX4= =M5rQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From menthos at menthos.com Fri Jun 25 15:57:21 2004 From: menthos at menthos.com (Christian Rose) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:57:21 +0200 Subject: The GNOME model Message-ID: <1088179041.10001.606.camel@stina.menthos.com> I saw some posts mention the GNOME Translation Project (GTP) model as a reference. Some of them seemed entirely correct, some of them while partly correct also seemed based on slight misunderstandings. I'd like to take this oppurtunity to clear these things up. If nothing else, this could perhaps get some insight in how another community translation project works. There are some more or less defined goals with the model that the GTP uses: * We want to encourage translators to work together (we call these groupings "teams"), since this usually means more consistent terminology and better QA for the translations. * We recognize that sometimes bad and confusing translations can be worse than no translation at all, so we want to encourage QA and contributors working together in teams, which in itself encourages some level of basic QA. * We want to encourage new translators to get in contact with their team right from the start, since the team can help them get started, with instructions and help in their own language. Also, the teams usually know what terminology can be used, and the team also usually has some experience in translating and can help in any question, regarding from language difficulties to technical issues such as PO syntax etc. * We want to give the teams some freedom to decide how they want to organize their own work, since we recognize that no mandated policy fits every team. Some teams are small, some really big, and some prefer an open policy, while others a more strict one. * We want to make sure that no, or very few, conflicts arise, and that if they arise, they are resolved before the affected translations that may be results of this are being committed. There's often not many things that are as counterproductive as conflicts, be they accidental or intentional. To avoid accidental conflicts, we want the translators to form teams, one for each language. * We want to make sure that the ones deciding on the translations are as much as possible the ones with knowledge in the affected language, and not other people, such as software maintainers or GTP maintainers. It's close to impossible for someone not fluent in a language to differentiate a "good" translation from a "bad" one, so the teams are the ones to decide, since they have the knowledge of the language. * At the same time, we still want to make the entry level barrier for contribution as low as possible. The teams --------- The GNOME Translation Project (GTP) is divided into language teams. A "team" can be everything from a single person working for himself, to many dozens of translators working together. But there can only be one team for each language at any given time. Each team should have a coordinator. This is basically in practice just a title that gets listed together with the team entry on the GTP web pages. The coordinator for the most part just has to act as a contact person, so that people from the GNOME side of things has a person they can contact in case there's a general problem with those translations, but also so that new volunteers have someone to contact in case they want to get started translating into that language. Starting to translate a new language ------------------------------------ In the GTP, anyone is welcome to start translating a new language. All it basically takes is for someone to write to the project mailing list and say "I want to translate into the X language". Then we'll list a new X language team on the GTP web pages, with this person as the coordinator for that new team, and help this person get started. Starting to translate an existing language ------------------------------------------ On the GTP web pages, new volunteers are strongly encouraged to get in contact with their language team and its coordinator in case there already is a team. If they report that they haven't tried, we urge them to do so before continuing. The team can then help the volunteer to get started, and they also know if someone is already working on a particular translations, things to watch out for, etc. We also encourage software maintainers to do the same thing, i.e. point interested translation volunteers to the GTP and their language team?. If someone reports that they have failed in getting in contact with the current team coordinator, either because the mail bounced, or because the current coordinator didn't respond, we formally give the current coordinator one week to respond and explain. If he or she hasn't responded in a week, we appoint someone else that has volunteered for this position as coordinator for that team. The coordinator's role ---------------------- The primary goal for a language team coordinator is to act as a contact person. However, with the position also comes some level of final say over the GNOME translations for this language, or other aspects covering the language team. This is rarely ever needed though, but it helps avoiding confusion should such situations occur. It's somewhat like the situation of being the maintainer for a piece of software. We don't want to allow coordinators to become "dictators" though. If someone reports that their coordinator is acting in such a way, we urge the coordinator to explain himself. Should the issues be for real we can opt to replace the coordinator, but fortunately that rarely happens. Almost all such cases seem to be based on misunderstandings, and are solved amicabilly for all parts. CVS access ---------- In GNOME, CVS accounts aren't restricted, not even translator ones. This has both benefits and drawbacks, but one effect is that we are somewhat more restrictive with giving out CVS accounts. A translator has to produce some translations before he or she can apply for and have a CVS account. This usually amounts to a handful of translations or something like that. We just want to make sure that the person's request is somewhat serious, and the best way to get a hint on that appears to be on whether there are already existing contributions. Also, the team coordinator must approve of the CVS account request for any member of his team. This is just to ensure that the team knows who will be committing translations for their language, and help avoid conflict situations later. We don't want to have potential conflicts occur in CVS, but rather have them resolved before that point. Also, in many cases we catch those situations where someone wanted to translate into a language but completely missed the fact that there is a team that does this and that he or she could join. Most people appear to be thankful for getting to know this. Once the person has a CVS account, it's personal and he or she can use it for both committing own translations and other people's translations, usually from the same team. Usually, at least one person in a team has a CVS account, and with big, productive teams there can be many in the same team that have access, and so the team as a whole can also help committing the translations of new members. Abuse ----- Obviously, no system or model is perfect. One area that we have recognized is that there is a possibility for a coordinator to abuse his or her situation. Fortunately, this rarely occurs, since most translators appear to be sensible people. And when it happens, we usually get to hear complaints about it, and can have an open discussion on how to solve it. Often the teams solve any such issues themselves. Drawbacks --------- There are some drawbacks I see with this model myself. First of all, the barrier of entry is not as low as it could be. It takes some mailing to get started: Subscribing to lists and getting contact with the potentially already existing team. Even worse when a coordinator or other people in the team should happen to not be reachable anymore; then the new volunteer must also report that before the situation can be fixed. Benefits -------- However, most translators seem to agree that the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. The benefits is the strong team community and team cooperation, and the encouragement for QA and terminology consistency built into the system. Also, since the teams usually gather experience with time, there is also a mentorship aspect, as older team members can help novice translators get started and also help later on, and this with instructions in their own language, a help which can be quite valuable. Usually all of this adds together, so that the whole translation becomes becomes like an ecosystem of its own, with the contributors in the seperate language teams getting more experienced, helping new ones get started, and then the new ones grow "old" one day and can help new ones, and so on, so this ensures a continuity effect that is most interesting and I believe also very beneficial to the project. So this is one model for organizing translators, and I believe that it is close to identical with the translation projects of many other big projects, such as KDE, Mozilla, OpenOffice.org or the Translation Project. Do I consider this model perfect? Obviously not. It has its drawbacks. But I don't think ignoring or downplaying the issues a model like this tries to solve is a good thing to do when organizing a new translation project. Also, I think the issues should be taken into careful consideration when designing a fundamentally different approach, since there is a substantial danger of just reexperiencing all the problems others has had before before they learned from it. Cheers, Christian ? I have even written a template that many GNOME software maintainers can opt to use to point new translation volunteers in the right direction: http://www.gnome.org/~menthos/package-translation-guide-template.html From sabdelg at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 17:18:27 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgwad) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:18:27 -0400 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <40DC236D.10007@redhat.com> References: <40DC236D.10007@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1088183906.5180.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> First, I am just a stating *my own* openion here and it is not *fedora* openion or redhat. I am getting confused and lost in the long emails. Can Mohamed or Youcef please explain in short email, in points : what are the problems as I failed to follow all long emails here. I do not see any changes in the policys, the only thing happened was to prevent multiple translators committing changes at same time. I went through Mohamed email and I am not sure where all these issues came from? I belive that by people establish teams here, things will be start to shape and take better form. Let me ask first, when Arabeyes started translation, did they have full list of things how it should be? Things are still being built and taking final shape. I belive in the freedom of allowing people to contribute. The main goal I see here is to provide traslation. Is the translation provided by certain people will be final and for good? I doubt! To establish a translation first is the first step. I belive yet to come a lot of tuning and enhancement. I am not aginst keeping things the same across all modules, and similar to other translations. For sure will be great to have team like Arabeyes team to contribute. Yet, why assuming anyone else who would like to contribute would cause a mess because s/he decided not to be part of Arabeyes. So, to keep this discussion constructive, can we discuss here what are the requirment or the right way someone think the system should be ? I had hard time to get clear requirment or request. I only found hey this policy is no good, why this should be this way. It would be better to be hey why do not we have things this way. Thanks Sherif On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 09:06, Bernd Groh wrote: > Wow! I am completely and utterly confused now. For the record, the main > change that has been undertaken is the [Take], [Release] mechanism, that > is to prevent two translators from comitting at the same time. Can > anyone tell me what exactly happened here? *confused* We did not > introduce any new policy, we merely, as said, implemented a mechanism to > prevent two translators from comitting at the same time. And one thing I > should mention, since I am not clear whether it is clear or not, though > it should be, what I am saying here on list is *not* Fedora policy, it > is *my* opinion. I believe in my opinion and in my right to state it, > that I've implemented this new system for the Fedora project has > absolutely nothing to do with it. > > Regards, > Bernd > > > Mohammed Elzubeir schrieb: > > >Salam, > > > >This is intended to all translators involved in Fedora, whether they are > >involved for Arabic or any other language. It is also intended for the > >people who shape the policies and tools used by and for the translators. > > > >To all Arabeyes members who are involved in translations, I would > >strongly advise you to join the fedora translation list [1] to voice > >your opinions, in order to allow the Fedora maintainers to better > >understand our requirements. > > > >Introduction > >------------ > > > >Fedora recently announced [2] a new system which nullifies pre-existing > >language translation teams. This is not to say that they had such an explicit > >policy, in the past but they are now saying that it is definitely not the > >policy. What do they want to do then? They want to have translator per module. > >What does this mean? Simple. There is module A that translator X can take, > >translate, release. Translator Y comes along, takes A, translates, releases. > >The same goes for modules B, C, etc. > > > >Sounds good, eh? More people can easily contribute. What this will result in > >is complete and utter chaos. Allow me to elaborate. > > > >The Loss of Consistency > >----------------------- > > > >There will be absolutely no conherence among translations. Each translator, > >depending on their language skills will have their own interpretation of > >strings. They will also have their own vocabulary that will most certainly > >conflict with someone else's in the overall translation. > > > >The Loss of Quality Control > >--------------------------- > > > >Since there is no group overseeing the quality of the translation, there are > >no assurances that the quality of translation is up to any standard. So who > >says what is standard? In the case of Arabic, the Arabeyes Project [3] has > >set up a committee (Quality Assurance Comittee [4]) that is specifically > >tasked with overseeing such standardizations across all translation projects. > >This is something that other projects can learn from. However, with such a > >scheme standards published by the QAC have no means of being implemented. > > > >The Loss of Communication > >------------------------- > > > >Since there is no group, each individual translator is on their own island > >with their own ideas of how things should be done. This does not affect > >Fedora alone. This affects how Arabic is translated across a variety of > >localized applications and libraries. > > > >This additionally creates a very serious problem for a large project, like > >Arabeyes. For example, in order to perform CVS sync's, the maintainer now > >has to manually see what module he still has control over and what > >modules he does not. In other words, a 5 minutes job will now take 50 > >minutes. > > > >The Loss of a Community > >----------------------- > > > >This scheme completely obliterates the sense and spirit of a community. > >In the case of Arabic, this took very hard long years to build and foster. > >With such a scheme, this community no longer needs to exist and is simply > >put back to an individual doing a couple strings and going home forgetting > >about the work he/she has modified. > > > >The Loss of Credit > >------------------ > > > >Arabeyes has taken great pains to ensuring that credit is given to each > >and every individual who has contributed in any way, shape or form. With > >the current scheme, this is no longer guaranteed. > > > >Conclusion > >---------- > > > >Past experiences from projects such as KDE, GNOME, Mandrake, etc. should be a > >good reference point to anyone outlining a localization policy for a project > >of the size of Fedora. Fedora's point of view is, if a team maintainer > >is needed, we can do that, as long as no one objects. However, it is not > >clear as to what would be done if someone objects for no reason. I can simply > >sit there on the list and object to every maintainer who comes up, just > >in spite of the project. Would that be taken seriously? What if I have a > >personal agenda against an individual? Would that suffice? What if, what if? > >These questions do not have answers yet. > > > >It is our hope that this policy would be reviewed and discussed with the > >community of the many language teams and individual translators, before it > >is being made as policy. We also hope that this would result in a more > >reasonable policy that accounts to the fact that some languages already indeed > >have a large set of translators and contributors who are organized and > >structured. It is also our hope that other language teams of translators would > >join us in our plea to Fedora to re-consider this policy. > > > > > >References > >---------- > > > >[1] https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list/ > >[2] https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2004-June/msg00046.html > >[3] http://www.arabeyes.org/ > >[4] http://wiki.arabeyes.org/QAC > > > > > From sabdelg at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 21:05:02 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <20040625195600.GC30176@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote: > > No, read the long emails. Reading it takes a shorter amount of time than > it takes for you to write this response. I guess it was mistake to even try to reply, thank .. no need for me to read anything. Wasting my time. > > I went through Mohamed email and I am not sure where all these > > issues came from? > > It comes from you objecting for Youcef to become the maintainer of the > Arabic trasnaltion. What gives YOU the right to object, without giving > any reasoning? I am an arabic speaking person who has the right to object .. Who ar YOU to talk like this? I stand to my right to object and it is not only me who object , yet it is not me who decide anyway. You better start talking in better tone. If you still need to carry a professional conversation. Otherwise do not even bother to reply to my email. > And you are suggesitng that Arabeyes does NOT provide this freedom? This > is a rather unacceptable attack that has no basis and is completely > uncalled for. I did not acuse nor attacked arabyes so drop the defencive tone here, and focus on the translation effort, after all this is fedora community not arabeyes community. I am talking about teams here composed from people regardless if they belong to certain group or lug. > Yes, I believe Arabeyes has been doing this for long enough to know > these steps. good so discuss the steps you want, tell the ppl here what you need instead of wasting time on attacking, be objetive, unless it is a mession that arabeyes.org is to claim it has all the arabization effort, and you are defencing that. > > I am not aginst keeping things the same across all modules, > > and similar to other translations. For sure will be great > > Oh please. Be against it ;) Oh please change your tone or stop reply. > Ask that question to why anyone would want to join any translation team? > This is a silly question and it has no meaning. Thanks for that. > If it is because you hate the Arabeyes project > (for your own reasons, you are entitled to > them, so am I, eh?).. and you don't want to be a part of it, but you > want to translate for fedora... if that is the case, STATE it. In which > case, just like I told Groh, I would personally prefer if Arabeyes > withdraws completely from Fedora and wish you happy translating. If I wanted to do anything I would have done it. I did release the module once I knew there is _someone_ who still activly translating it. I could not care less if it is arabeyes represntitive or normal person. I am entitle to my openion as an arabic speaking person who would like to contribute in an open source project, and I am not taking any privilages over here, so stop acusing me as I never acused arabeyes. My openion about certain group is my personal openion, and I guess I did not accuse anyone nor I said ohhh arabeyes bad guys and I do not want to be with them. You prove to me everytime by your reply on different ocusion that I stand right to my openion, such behaviour and way of talking. Are you threatening to leave unless I go away or not talk over here? I am not sure what is your problem? It seems you missing something here .. I never attacked arabeyes here nor acused you guys with anything, I said I have issues with the translation here, did you ever care to ask me what are my concerns ? You always jump to defence blindly first, attacking and talk in such a way far from being professional. Yet, everytime you greatly manage to make me regret to even do anything for the middle east or the arab ppl, or even think about translation. Look here and see the emails before you attack .. I had no idea no intention to do anything , I did claim that Arabeyes did not translate almost all the po files, I found an object which needs translation, oh I have time now, then I decided to translate it. Took one full day to check the other translation so that my translation seems odd. Yet all what I get acusing "that person has nothing to do with translation" , "that person hates arabeyes" , "that person did not contribute ..etc" It was an honest attempt to translate without anything on my side aginst arabeyes. The min I did read the emails about someone had that module and wish to finish it, I did release it, I did not even aruge that I have it and he should leave it to me. Now you are jumping here acusing me with bull. I would appreciate if you forget about me and just focus on translation if that is the real goal. If your real goal is Arabeyes to be the organization which have claim arabization of Fedora & Red Hat just state this and deal with a professional demand on that. > > this should be this way. It would be better to be hey > > why do not we have things this way. > > Perhaps you missed THIS part? Perhaps I was totally wrong to even talk here. Wasted my time and got accused. Have fun translating and maintaing the arabic modules if you wish. P.S. if you ever want to reply, drop the tone you are using. I would appreciate if you just drop the subject totally and forget that I even posted anything or tried to translate, enough from my time. Enjoy. Thanks Sherif From sabdelg at redhat.com Fri Jun 25 21:27:30 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:27:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Typo: > I did claim that Arabeyes did not translate > almost all the po files, The above should read: "I did NOT claim that arabeyes did not translate almost all the po files." Thanks Sherif -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3JjEGEwRyeYJw+YRArOfAJ9CQlTKR6gB5hK7jcSsMrqTLTuZzQCg1Evw jpgQn/RTlegZkoD1rb16bTk= =OWwr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From menthos at menthos.com Sat Jun 26 00:38:08 2004 From: menthos at menthos.com (Christian Rose) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 02:38:08 +0200 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <1088183906.5180.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <40DC236D.10007@redhat.com> <1088183906.5180.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1088210287.10001.778.camel@stina.menthos.com> fre 2004-06-25 klockan 19.18 skrev Sherif Abdelgwad: > First, I am just a stating *my own* openion here and it is > not *fedora* openion or redhat. Certainly. I believe everyone here is aware that people are usually speaking for themselves, without any particular hat on, unless otherwise stated. > I am getting confused and lost in the long emails. Can Mohamed or > Youcef please explain in short email, in points : what are the > problems as I failed to follow all long emails here. I do not > see any changes in the policys, the only thing happened was > to prevent multiple translators committing changes at same time. I think reading the long detailed mails is a good thing; they explain quite a lot of background, which the heated flamage mails don't. Anyway, I think everyone agrees that avoiding translation conflicts is a good thing. It's not really that which is causing the debate. The point is in *which way* this is achieved. Traditionally, translation projects are communities where volunteers join seperate language teams to produce translations, and in this work the teams naturally also arrange these issues for themselves and arrange who works on what and so on. In Fedora, language teams are right now bypassed completely by the organization, so that each contributor by default just works for himself or herself, thus eliminating all benefits of teams. Teams are not mandated nor encouraged by the process, which many experienced translators seem to believe is a serious mistake. > I went through Mohamed email and I am not sure where all these > issues came from? > > I belive that by people establish teams here, things will be > start to shape and take better form. Let me ask first, > when Arabeyes started translation, did they have full list > of things how it should be? Things are still being built and > taking final shape. I belive in the freedom of allowing > people to contribute. Certainly, so do we all. The key issue here is: when would the teams take shape, and what would those teams look like? With the new Fedora translation status pages, where anyone can contribute without ever discussing anything with anyone else, the concept of teams aren't mandated nor even encouraged. Allowing anyone to contribute right away without discussing with anyone may sound like a nice idea in theory, but it is usually in practice totally orthogonal to the idea of producing coherent, good quality translations. To have that, one must first cooperate. There's no magic way around that. And to get that, you must first mandate or at least encourage volunteering translators to join teams. Also, there's no way for someone else not fluent in the language to decide whether particular translations are good or bad. Thus, you usually have to ask the translators for that language as a group to have that question answered. That means teams. So no matter how you design your translation organization, you usually can't get around the concept of teams, at least not if you care squat about quality assurance. Thus the heated debate: The concept of community translations of Red Hat Linux or Fedora Core is not new, so there are long-time contributors that have already formed successful language translation teams for many years, producing 100% complete translations for [insert divinity] knows how many releases. Some of those teams are large, some teams are smaller, but they are usually all quite experienced. Enter today where these existing teams are suddenly completely nullified by the Fedora translation status pages, which ignore them completely. Then perhaps you can understand why people are annoyed, when they have the successful teams they've built up and contributed with in the past now being completely ignored. Granted, these existing Red Hat/Fedora community language translation teams weren't really tracked before. They weren't really official; Red Hat just tracked individual contributors and hoped that these should organize themselves some way. Which is also what happened. Unofficial language teams were formed out of registered community translators, and were successful in producing Red Hat translations and later Fedora translations. So, would we be again at that point in time at the birth of the project, I would agree with you that we would just need to wait and see translation teams form. But we aren't. For many languages, there is already organized and successful teams that have already been dealing with this for many years. Bypassing and ignoring the existance of them, be it accidentally or intentionally, is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. > The main goal I see here is to provide traslation. Is the > translation provided by certain people will be final and > for good? I doubt! To establish a translation first is the > first step. I belive yet to come a lot of tuning and enhancement. Certainly. It's just that to have help and feedback from other translators they must know about your work and be able to review it, preferrably in good time. With the current system, some random person could commit a babelfish-quality translation without other translators fluent in the language (the "team") knowing about it or catching it in time. > I am not aginst keeping things the same across all modules, > and similar to other translations. For sure will be great > to have team like Arabeyes team to contribute. Yet, why > assuming anyone else who would like to contribute would > cause a mess because s/he decided not to be part of Arabeyes. I can't speak for Arabeyes, but there's nothing magic about most teams. They're not a secret, closed band of elitist people. Usually they're quite informal. All it takes to become a "member" of a language team is often a discussion like this on a language team mailing list: A: Hi, I want to translate the X module into LL! B: Sure, go ahead. We will note in this LL team that you're doing the X translation. Please ask if you have any questions and also consider subscribing to our mailing list if you haven't already. Also, once you're finished, please send your translation to the mailing list so others can try to review it and give helpful comments. A: Gee, thanks, will do. If the situation was that all teams were closed gangs of self-selected arrogant people that perhaps rejected new volunteers or demanded them to work on stuff they didn't like to, then I would understand your point that there should perhaps be a way for volunteers to decide not to be part of a team to participate. This almost always isn't the situation though. The teams are usually as informal as could possibly be. They're there so that volunteer translators for that language know each other and who's working on what in the project, and can help eachother and review each other's work, and as a consequence in the end as a team produce coherent translations for that language. Thus, I don't understand at all what the benefit would be of deciding not to join a team, or why the system should encourage that or even have that as an option. If there's a particular team that isn't as open or helpful as could be to new volunteers, then it's a problem with that particular language team, not the concept of language teams per se. > So, to keep this discussion constructive, can we discuss > here what are the requirment or the right way someone think > the system should be ? I had hard time to get clear requirment > or request. I only found hey this policy is no good, why > this should be this way. It would be better to be hey > why do not we have things this way. If you ask for my opinion, something like the model used in almost all other translation projects is the way to go. See my "The GNOME model" mail which explains how such translation projects often work. Perhaps not every little detail should be copied, since even those systems have their problems in details, but an organization fundamentally built on teams is a must, and also that the system encourages or mandates that volunteers join the teams first before committing translations. If you don't have that, you scrap all the benefits of having the teams in the first place. Also, each team having a coordinator is often a must. Perhaps you can live without a team coordinator if the team is only two people, but if the teams grow larger you often need it. Then you can have someone that has the final say, should there be an issue in the team where there needs to be someone that has the final say. Usually this is not the case, but should there be such a situation the team will often be able to resolve the issues themselves if there has been a coordinator assigned in the team. Otherwise the translation project maintainer may need to step in and decide on an issue he or she couldn't possibly make a qualified decision on, because it involves knowledge of the particular language. And if the team is unhappy with the team coordinator, the coordinator can always be replaced. Also, occasionally you will want to get in contact with a team, and if you have assigned a coordinator, you have an excellent contact person aswell. I hope this mail was helpful, even if it was long. Translation itself isn't rocket science, but it often scales into a very large project with many volunteers quite rapidly. And dealing with how to best organize those large amounts of volunteers so that they can cooperate in the best way possible and produce coherent translations is a nontrivial task, from which lessons have been learned in the past in other free software translation projects. We should learn from those lessons. Christian From josep at imatge-sintetica.com Sat Jun 26 05:23:54 2004 From: josep at imatge-sintetica.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:23:54 +0200 Subject: If there were translation teams... Message-ID: <1088227433.1190.169.camel@phobos> If there were translation teams, and I was the coordinator of my team... * I would encourage all translators to have a CVS account and commit their changes, *provided* the file has been *reviewed* and *accepted* by the rest of the members of the team. * I would encourage all translators to apply as maintainers for those files that they are familiar with, either because they have translated them before, or because they use them often, or for whatever reason. I would still give priority to the last translator to be the maintainer if he/she would like to. * I would make sure that whenever a file is "taken" or "released" the team's mailing list, and specially the maintainer of a file, are informed about it. * I would have more time to translate, and I would have to spend less time coordinating the team, assigning files and keeping track of who's doing what and for how long they have been doing it. Roles: *** Translator: the person translating a file at a given time. *** Maintainer: is the person responsible to keep updated a file, whenever it needs improvements. This person would be responsible for any translation bugs on that file. He/she doesn't have to be the translator, though. The translator might change over time, upon team member's availability. A Maintainer should be informed about translators taking their files, and maybe maintainers should be able to commit at any time independently of who's taken the file... (if possible) Briefly, a maintainer is the person to contact for a certain file, and it often happens to be its translator too. *** Coordinator (team): the person to contact about anything related to the translation of a certain language (as described in Christian Rose's description of the GNOME Model?). It is the maintainer of all those files that have not yet a maintainer, or for whom s/he is the real maintainer, of course. It will commit files and act as a maintainer on behalf of translators that have no CVS account. The coordinator coaches new translators (could be done by maintainers too). Possibly the coordinator should have full CVS access to any file that belongs to its language. The election of the coordinator is up to each team, any changes about coordinator must be submitted to this mailing list. The coordinator should be informed about changes in Maintainers. Maybe there could be the role of the "translation project coordinator" much like what Christian Rose is for the GNOME project, and which I suppose falls into Sarah Wang right now. Fedora translation page should have a description of the translation process, teams, coordinators... you get the idea :) All that... of course, if there were translation teams... Briefly, combining teams with the new method have a lot of potential that we should explote. Again, this is only my view, and there might be flaws, if there are I hope you can spot them and tell me :) Best regards, /Josep Bernd: these might be the scriptures you were asking for :) Note: not all members of a team have to be translators, there are also proof readers, philologists, users, etc, and not all of them have to have CVS access. 1) http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2004-June/msg00148.html From bgroh at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 05:46:22 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 15:46:22 +1000 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <1088210287.10001.778.camel@stina.menthos.com> References: <40DC236D.10007@redhat.com> <1088183906.5180.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1088210287.10001.778.camel@stina.menthos.com> Message-ID: <40DD0DAE.9030501@redhat.com> Christian, >>First, I am just a stating *my own* openion here and it is >>not *fedora* openion or redhat. >> >> > >Certainly. I believe everyone here is aware that people are usually >speaking for themselves, without any particular hat on, unless otherwise >stated. > Why then did the email from arabeyes talk about fedora policies, though they really only talked about what *I* said? I believe this disclaimer of Sherif was necessary, otherwise, we might have gotten a reply about additional fedora policies, that aren't really any fedora policies, or would you disagree? >>I am getting confused and lost in the long emails. Can Mohamed or >>Youcef please explain in short email, in points : what are the >>problems as I failed to follow all long emails here. I do not >>see any changes in the policys, the only thing happened was >>to prevent multiple translators committing changes at same time. >> >> > >I think reading the long detailed mails is a good thing; they explain >quite a lot of background, which the heated flamage mails don't. > >Anyway, I think everyone agrees that avoiding translation conflicts is a >good thing. It's not really that which is causing the debate. The point >is in *which way* this is achieved. Traditionally, translation projects >are communities where volunteers join seperate language teams to produce >translations, and in this work the teams naturally also arrange these >issues for themselves and arrange who works on what and so on. > Agreed, and this is a good thing. >In Fedora, language teams are right now bypassed completely by the >organization, so that each contributor by default just works for himself >or herself, thus eliminating all benefits of teams. Teams are not >mandated nor encouraged by the process, which many experienced >translators seem to believe is a serious mistake. > Maybe it was a mistake to put the new system online, maybe we should go back to the previous one, in which everyone can commit again at any time? Would you prefer that? This issue is open for discussion. There's still a lot of work to do I believe, I merely thought the new system was a step into the right direction. If it's not, let's fix it, there's no need to suddenly jump up and say that other people shouldn't have a module assigned to them, because they've got nothing to do with the translation group in place. Before, they didn't have a module assigned to them, but simply did a commit. You don't think it's a step into the right direction if you can now see who's doing what? Ok, understood. Maybe we were wrong. Are there other opinions? >>I went through Mohamed email and I am not sure where all these >>issues came from? >> >>I belive that by people establish teams here, things will be >>start to shape and take better form. Let me ask first, >>when Arabeyes started translation, did they have full list >>of things how it should be? Things are still being built and >>taking final shape. I belive in the freedom of allowing >>people to contribute. >> >> > >Certainly, so do we all. The key issue here is: when would the teams >take shape, and what would those teams look like? > Hang on, aren't you part of the community too? Isn't it as much up to you to form such teams as it is up to me? Or do you believe it is RedHat's responsibility to mandate teams? What would these teams look like? I don't know, what do you want your team to look like? Or do you believe it is RedHat's responsibility to define what exactly a team is? There are teams in place, and as said, that's why I've added the option of becoming a maintainer, so that people who have coordinated a certain language since ages, can actually prevent somebody else from commiting. A maintainer can release a module and give it to someone s/he trusts. In effect, the new system allows to give some level of control to existing translation teams, rather than letting everyone commit freely (no, that wasn't a requested feature, I've added this feature myself, so I could ensure that existing coordinators, being assigned as maintainer, can still commit, even though someone else took the module). I'm sorry to hear that you don't think that's a step into the right direction. Well, maybe we didn't think the new additions through enough? If so, I personally apologise for the inconvenience this has caused, though I actually only implemented what was requested. And no, I don't have the URL, since I didn't actually read those requests myself, I merely took on what the maintainers of some of the mailing lists for the individual languages told me was a common request. > With the new Fedora >translation status pages, where anyone can contribute without ever >discussing anything with anyone else, the concept of teams aren't >mandated nor even encouraged. > Wasn't that also the case before the new status pages? Everyone could simply do a commit, without ever talking to anyone. Why are the arguments specifically against the new status pages? And really, if the majority of the community agrees with you, I have absolutely no objections of getting rid of them again. >Allowing anyone to contribute right away without discussing with anyone >may sound like a nice idea in theory, but it is usually in practice >totally orthogonal to the idea of producing coherent, good quality >translations. To have that, one must first cooperate. There's no magic >way around that. And to get that, you must first mandate or at least >encourage volunteering translators to join teams. > Agreed, with the exception of the mandate. But why should it be entirely up to "us"? Isn't it the responsibility of each individual within the community to encourage people to join teams? Why should "we" *make* people join certain teams? And while I agree with what you're saying, I still believe that an understandable translation is better than none, and you can start throwing stones at me now, if you wish. Ok, now, again, what exactly about the new status pages is it that causes all these problems? As said, I have no objections towards rolling them back and allowing everyone to commit again, at any given time. >Also, there's no way for someone else not fluent in the language to >decide whether particular translations are good or bad. Thus, you >usually have to ask the translators for that language as a group to have >that question answered. That means teams. So no matter how you design >your translation organization, you usually can't get around the concept >of teams, at least not if you care squat about quality assurance. > Completely agree. I believe teamwork is very essential, and I'd encourage anyone to join an existing team, if exists. >Thus the heated debate: The concept of community translations of Red Hat >Linux or Fedora Core is not new, so there are long-time contributors >that have already formed successful language translation teams for many >years, producing 100% complete translations for [insert divinity] knows >how many releases. Some of those teams are large, some teams are >smaller, but they are usually all quite experienced. >Enter today where these existing teams are suddenly completely nullified >by the Fedora translation status pages, which ignore them completely. > I'm sorry, but I don't see it? Why do the status pages nullify existing teams? If you chose to be a maintainer (and I've offered it to you), you're actually able to release someone from a module and get someone else to take it, or you can just take it yourself. Before, you had no way of doing that, and everyone could just freely commit, whether you wanted it or not. Please Christian, please explain to me why the new status pages nullify existing teams? I'd really like to know. >Then perhaps you can understand why people are annoyed, when they have >the successful teams they've built up and contributed with in the past >now being completely ignored. > Christian, I've offered you to be the maintainer for all swedish modules -- no reply. I'm happy to make Josep the maintainer for all modules for Catalan. I know he's asked, but then he said he'd want to wait till I tell him what he's messing with, so I told him. And I haven't heard anything since. Yes, it should be stated somewhere on the page, yes, we really should have team pages up, yes, this and that should be in place too, sorry if things aren't up as fast as you'd like them, we're really trying. Maybe starting with the status pages send the wrong message, if so, I apologise. And if you were hinting towards Youcef, I'm happy to discuss it with you off list, or on Youcef's request on list. But, if there are no objections from the other arabic translators, I have no objections either. One question though, why exactly did you get annoyed? Why exactly do you think it is all the fault of the new status pages? What is it about the new status pages that makes this system so infinitly worse than the one that was in place before? I'd really like to hear your take on it. Why is it, that it nullifies existing teams? >Granted, these existing Red Hat/Fedora community language translation >teams weren't really tracked before. They weren't really official; Red >Hat just tracked individual contributors and hoped that these should >organize themselves some way. Which is also what happened. Unofficial >language teams were formed out of registered community translators, and >were successful in producing Red Hat translations and later Fedora >translations. >So, would we be again at that point in time at the birth of the project, >I would agree with you that we would just need to wait and see >translation teams form. > But we're not. >But we aren't. For many languages, there is already organized and >successful teams that have already been dealing with this for many >years. Bypassing and ignoring the existance of them, be it accidentally >or intentionally, is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. > I'm sure I sound like a broken record by now, but again, why do you think that the new status pages bypass and ignore the existance of already organized language teams? And for the case I haven't made myself clear enough in previous emails, the system is open for discussion. And as said before also, if the majority of the community supports your view, I don't even have any objections of rolling it back, and allowing unrestricted commit access again. I can't promise anything though, after all, it's not up to me alone to decide, but I'd definitely speak for whatever the majority of the community wants. >>The main goal I see here is to provide traslation. Is the >>translation provided by certain people will be final and >>for good? I doubt! To establish a translation first is the >>first step. I belive yet to come a lot of tuning and enhancement. >> >> > >Certainly. It's just that to have help and feedback from other >translators they must know about your work and be able to review it, >preferrably in good time. With the current system, some random person >could commit a babelfish-quality translation without other translators >fluent in the language (the "team") knowing about it or catching it in >time. > Hmm, now you've lost me completely. :( How is that different from how it was before? Everyone could do a commit. Now, on the other hand, if you are a maintainer, and somebody else does a commit, you'll even be notified by email. And you keep telling me it's all the new status pages? Sorry, but I just don't get it?! :( >I can't speak for Arabeyes, but there's nothing magic about most teams. >They're not a secret, closed band of elitist people. Usually they're >quite informal. All it takes to become a "member" of a language team is >often a discussion like this on a language team mailing list: > > A: Hi, I want to translate the X module into LL! > B: Sure, go ahead. We will note in this LL team that you're > doing the X translation. Please ask if you have any questions > and also consider subscribing to our mailing list if you haven't > already. Also, once you're finished, please send your > translation to the mailing list so others can try to review it > and give helpful comments. > A: Gee, thanks, will do. > >If the situation was that all teams were closed gangs of self-selected >arrogant people that perhaps rejected new volunteers or demanded them to >work on stuff they didn't like to, then I would understand your point >that there should perhaps be a way for volunteers to decide not to be >part of a team to participate. > >This almost always isn't the situation though. The teams are usually as >informal as could possibly be. They're there so that volunteer >translators for that language know each other and who's working on what >in the project, and can help eachother and review each other's work, and >as a consequence in the end as a team produce coherent translations for >that language. > And you won't see me disagree with you, not in the least. It is true though, that sometimes, it's really hard to find a maintainer. ;) That however, I wouldn't in the least hold against teams. I believe having teams is a good thing. >Thus, I don't understand at all what the benefit would be of deciding >not to join a team, or why the system should encourage that or even have >that as an option. If there's a particular team that isn't as open or >helpful as could be to new volunteers, then it's a problem with that >particular language team, not the concept of language teams per se. > In general, of course I agree with you, that doesn't mean there couldn't be exceptions though. And I believe we can leave it at that. I'm happy to discuss it though. >If you ask for my opinion, something like the model used in almost all >other translation projects is the way to go. See my "The GNOME model" >mail which explains how such translation projects often work. > >Perhaps not every little detail should be copied, since even those >systems have their problems in details, but an organization >fundamentally built on teams is a must, and also that the system >encourages or mandates that volunteers join the teams first before >committing translations. If you don't have that, you scrap all the >benefits of having the teams in the first place. > >Also, each team having a coordinator is often a must. Perhaps you can >live without a team coordinator if the team is only two people, but if >the teams grow larger you often need it. Then you can have someone that >has the final say, should there be an issue in the team where there >needs to be someone that has the final say. >Usually this is not the case, but should there be such a situation the >team will often be able to resolve the issues themselves if there has >been a coordinator assigned in the team. Otherwise the translation >project maintainer may need to step in and decide on an issue he or she >couldn't possibly make a qualified decision on, because it involves >knowledge of the particular language. >And if the team is unhappy with the team coordinator, the coordinator >can always be replaced. >Also, occasionally you will want to get in contact with a team, and if >you have assigned a coordinator, you have an excellent contact person >aswell. > > >I hope this mail was helpful, even if it was long. Translation itself >isn't rocket science, but it often scales into a very large project with >many volunteers quite rapidly. And dealing with how to best organize >those large amounts of volunteers so that they can cooperate in the best >way possible and produce coherent translations is a nontrivial task, >from which lessons have been learned in the past in other free software >translation projects. We should learn from those lessons. > Christian, all these point are very well taken, believe me. I see a lot of problems with our current system, especially since we don't have everything in place that we'd like to have in place. We'd like to see language-specific mailing lists and team pages for all teams too, we just haven't gotten around to it yet. It would be nice to have it all centralized in one place, and that's the main aim, but for now, individual groups just have to have their own pages. Geez, in the beginning we even pointed to a non-fedora site for status information. So we've started with putting up a status page. Since the problem of concurrent commits and therefore conflicts in large and active groups was a main issue, we've decided on adding a mechanism to prevent people from comitting at the same time, which was implemented next, as part of the status pages, so it would also function as an overview for others on who exactly is doing what. That's what we did. And suddenly, by simply implementing this next step, we're getting all this critique about the new status pages nullifying existing translations teams? I truly thought it was a step into the right direction, and that's what everyone else here thought too. Maybe it wasn't? However, I let the community decide -- in its entirety. Best Regards, Bernd >Christian > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From bgroh at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 06:16:07 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:16:07 +1000 Subject: If there were translation teams... In-Reply-To: <1088227433.1190.169.camel@phobos> References: <1088227433.1190.169.camel@phobos> Message-ID: <40DD14A7.6060008@redhat.com> Josep, >If there were translation teams, and I was the coordinator of my team... > Isn't that the case? Do you want to be the maintainer of all modules for catalan now or not? I haven't heard any objections, so it's yours for the taking. :) > * I would encourage all translators to have a CVS account and commit >their changes, *provided* the file has been *reviewed* and *accepted* by >the rest of the members of the team. > I'd encourage them too. But sometimes you want to commit something you're working on, even though you're not finished. And sometimes you'd like to commit something cos your finished, even though nobody else had time to review yet. If it's no good, you can always roll back. What our system does... you take a module, you work on it, you commit. If it's not finished, you have to release it if you don't want to work on it anymore. If it's finished, you're auto-released. If there's no maintainer, end of story. If there's a maintainer, module set to QA, all commit access blocked for everyone but the maintainer. Maintainer has to approve with either a commit or by clicking [Approve]. Maintainer can chose to wait for feedback from other reviewers. > * I would encourage all translators to apply as maintainers for those >files that they are familiar with, either because they have translated >them before, or because they use them often, or for whatever reason. I >would still give priority to the last translator to be the maintainer if >he/she would like to. > I'd encourage them too. And I'd give priority to someone who was active translating the file. > * I would make sure that whenever a file is "taken" or "released" the >team's mailing list, and specially the maintainer of a file, are >informed about it. > Yes, good point, I should add that feature. So far, only the translator is informed if s/he has been released. The maintainer is informed of commits, but informing the maintainer of take and release can indeed be helpful. And nothing speaks against the maintainer being a group, really. > * I would have more time to translate, and I would have to spend less >time coordinating the team, assigning files and keeping track of who's >doing what and for how long they have been doing it. > That's the aim. >Roles: > >*** Translator: the person translating a file at a given time. > That's the intention. >*** Maintainer: is the person responsible to keep updated a file, >whenever it needs improvements. This person would be responsible for any >translation bugs on that file. He/she doesn't have to be the translator, >though. The translator might change over time, upon team member's >availability. > That's the intention. >A Maintainer should be informed about translators taking their files, >and maybe maintainers should be able to commit at any time independently >of who's taken the file... (if possible) > Currently informed of commits, but of takes would be good too, I agree. And the maintainer can commit at any time, that was my main point for adding a maintainer. >Briefly, a maintainer is the person to contact for a certain file, and >it often happens to be its translator too. > That's the intention. >*** Coordinator (team): the person to contact about anything related to >the translation of a certain language (as described in Christian Rose's >description of the GNOME Model?). It is the maintainer of all those >files that have not yet a maintainer, or for whom s/he is the real >maintainer, of course. It will commit files and act as a maintainer on >behalf of translators that have no CVS account. > That's who I'd assign all modules to by default (as a maintainer). That at least is the intention. When we have team pages up, we can formalize that all a bit more. >The coordinator coaches new translators (could be done by maintainers >too). >Possibly the coordinator should have full CVS access to any file that >belongs to its language. > That is a valid point. So far, the coordinator has only full access to the files that are "unmaintained" (by being their maintainer). But I believe that's a good feature to add. And I believe everyone experienced can coach anyone new. >The election of the coordinator is up to each team, any changes about >coordinator must be submitted to this mailing list. >The coordinator should be informed about changes in Maintainers. > >Maybe there could be the role of the "translation project coordinator" >much like what Christian Rose is for the GNOME project, and which I >suppose falls into Sarah Wang right now. > >Fedora translation page should have a description of the translation >process, teams, coordinators... you get the idea :) > Well, that's the plan, it'll just take a little longer. Sorry, if we can't put it up all at once. >All that... of course, if there were translation teams... > Well, there are, we know that, don't we? :) >Briefly, combining teams with the new method have a lot of potential >that we should explote. > >Again, this is only my view, and there might be flaws, if there are I >hope you can spot them and tell me :) > No, I didn't spot any flaws, a lot of your suggestions have already been put in place with the new system. And that exactly is it what puzzles me. Given you've just suggested a lot of things that we've just put in place with the new status pages, why again is it that it is criticized so much? Why even do people say it nullifies existing translation teams? I don't have to get it, or do I? ;) Best Regards, Bernd >Best regards, > >/Josep > >Bernd: these might be the scriptures you were asking for :) > Nah, that's pretty much the path I am going, as said, and a lot has been implemented with the new upgrade. I simply won't restrict anyone cvs access until we're fully organized, that's all. :) > >Note: not all members of a team have to be translators, there are also >proof readers, philologists, users, etc, and not all of them have to >have CVS access. > >1) >http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2004-June/msg00148.html > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From sabdelg at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 07:04:28 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <20040626055427.GA3995@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote: > Then why are you replying? ;) I think we all want to get this done in the > best way it can be for Arabic. I am replying because you accused me, and I hope this ends. > Well, that explains it. You are Arabic speaking, so you object. I don't > mean to burst your bubble here, but I am questioning the rationale > behind the objection, not your mother tongue. I object to Fedora's > current system because I find it counter-productive for translations. I > clearly stated why it is so, and I pointed to other projects which have > been doing this successfully. You are objecting because you have the > right to? I'm not sure I follow the logic involved. > > A logical reason would be, "Youcef and his team are doing a poor job, so > poor that it is beyond repair. I would like to take over his role and > fix those problems." Even with that, I would disagree, but at least it > is a somewhat logical reason. Your reason is, I have the right to. Oh no .. now you are definitly wrong. I did not ask for taking over his role nor I said I will not tell him what are my concerns. I object because I have concerns and issues, and with the current handling of issue at arabeyes, which you prove it now, that they attack if someone say hey I do not like it this way. All what I said that I have concerns about the translation which means that there are things I would rather discuss. I object because I find something wrong in the way things are handled. A better way you should do is to ask me what is wrong, and ask me how to fix it as a team. I never claimed that Arabeyes is wrong or doing bad things. I always complained about how you guys handle things. Which you are proving now. > > it is not only me who object , yet it is not me who decide > > Well, those who object should speak out then. Is it an embarassing > thing? It is up to them, if they did not speak it is their problem. I am aware of at least 2 ppl objecting. Do not you think you better discuss how things should be and allow more somothely ppl to feel OK to join you rather than attacking? > You are right, I may be unnecessarily defensive. However, I am very well > aware of your feelings about Arabeyes as a whole -- which you made > abundantly clear in the past to other people. > Oh no. Our mission is to bring Arabic to Linux and Unix, Arabeyes is but > a vehicle. I think your ill feelings about Arabeyes stem from the very > misunderstanding of what Arabeyes is. I stated my feeling clearly that the way you handle any issue is not something I feel is right. I might be right, might be wrong. But you never stopped and tried to discuss things, you always jump to attack. I clearly mentioned before that I do respect the group, and have nothing personal against. I am very much wished to help and contribute, yet everytime I try to get closer you fire without reason. Linux-Egypt are working on arabic fedora distro, which I am contributing in. I did suggest on their forum to build RPMs for Arabeyes projects. Do you think I would do such thing if I have what you called "ill-feeling" aginst arabeyes. You really mis-understood me and acting really in unnecessarily definsive way. > > Believe it or not, Arabeyes members are normal people (at least most of > us think of ourselves as normal ;). You are, however, contradicting > yourself. You don't mind releasing the module (which you have released > and taken and released, etc.) but you mind Youcef being the maintainer > (oh, because you have the right to?). I am rather perplexed by all that. Now you are telling lies I belive. I only took the module once and I did release at the min I did learn that there is someone wants it. Which normally person will send email if things happened asking that he was doing this work and it seems I am assigned to it which prevents him from doing his work. A nice email would have got that done without all that misunderstanding and attacking. You may ask Brend to check the logs and tell you if I ever took the module again. See my point here? It is not me who have ill-feeling here, you assumed and attacked and thought I am playing game or something, which I am honestly not. I explained why I object, yet I had not problem releasing the module. I belive it is his right to finish it, and I quitly did release it. Because next,as I told him in an email I will discuss my issues or concerns about the translation. Yet I find you jump in defensing something never happened. Having a memory more than a year ago for a discussion, accusing me that I took , released, took, released the module which is far from truth. > Yes you have. I have no intentions of digging into that -- I am simply > pointing out that you are already carrying some old baggage against > Arabeyes and so it should be noted. In other words, I don't take your > opinion as unbiased or objective -- and I ask others to consider this > when reading your opinions. It seems it is you who are carrying old memory for a conversation we had before. Yet, I think you forgot that we talked on IRC and I cleared where I stand. I even tried to subscribe to your mailing list. Yet it was one of your member who attacked me later and casued me to loose the interest even to discuss anything. Yet I have no problems with arabeyes. I am planning to provide RPMs for your packages, offering to do that in an arabic distribution currently in the process and should be out. So I do not think with me offering to do that I would be against arabeyes. I may have concerns, yes, but yet I do respect your effort. I would appreciate if you do not point something on my behave. My openion never saif anything about Arabeyes, you the one having old memory and assuming I am acting on that. Let me clear this again here and publically I am not. Read again my posts here and forget about your assumption because it is wrong. > Unfortunately (for me), and fortunately for the Arab Open Source > community, I do not have the say in this. I can simply suggest it. Suggestion to leave the community ? Oh let me tell you that translation is not a rocket since, and belive me Linux is growing fast in middle east, and if you are not the Arabic community I am afraid so speak about Arabeyes. Yet I did not ask you to leave nor I am going to contribute to anything. So rest your case here, and stop this behavior which I would call it childish more than anything else. > I believe Youcef has asked you to explain your issues. This is why > Arabeyes exists, in case you haven't noticed. It provides an open forum > for people to discuss such issues. We setup QAC specifically for this. > You are still free to join the QAC and participate in forming such > decisions. I said in my post that I will discuss my issues here. Did you give time and found me not saying what are my issues? I also said I am not joing arabeyes team yet I standed to my right to contribute if I choose to. Fedora is an Open source project, it has the tools, the infrastructure and CVS. I do not need to be part of arabeyes if I need to so anything, or I must do that if that what you are refering to? Again it is you who pushing things far away and assume and over react. You exactly did the same thing the last time I tried to approach you guys. Discussion about translation need to be here, I do not see why should a discussion should be disconnected from Fedora Project. I belive it has been stated that if 5 or more translators from certain lang are there, they can have their own mailing list. Why do we need to move to discuss anything on arabeyes if I may ask ? > > to defence blindly first, attacking and talk in such > > a way far from being professional. Yet, everytime you > > It takes two to tango. I guess you just said I did not attack. So I am afraid you are to tango on your own. For me I do not have time for this. > > greatly manage to make me regret to even do anything > > for the middle east or the arab ppl, or even think > > about translation. > > That is your prerogative. That's your done. Everytime I do something, you attack Can you simply tell me now, without history talking, why are you attacking me here? Oh let me tell you: - - Oh Sherif took the module to translate - - Oh Sherif has concerns aginst arabeyes - - Oh Sherif object to have Youcef a maintainer - - Oh Sherif released the module - - Oh what shall we do now! Let us give him hard time. You accused me of playing game of taking, releasing, retaking, releasing the module. I would like to know where did you get that from. You went more claiming that I have ill-feeling, old memories about Arabeyes. Let me tell you, it is you who are assuming and building on that. I simple: - - Tried to help - - Did learn there is someone working on it - - Rleased the module for him - - Stated that I have issues with the current translation - - Stated I will discuss it. - - Objected due to the above reason, and due to the behavior (which you still acting on). I said I am going to discuss and rais the issues. You never discussed. You just attacked, accused me playing games ...etc. Get over it man! > I think it would help if you also think of Arabeyes as "The Arab Open > Source Community". We are not a commercial entity. I know you didn't say > that we were, but sometimes it is good to point it out. Arab Eyes is a project. It is not the Arab Open Source Community. It is like Fedora, is not the Linux Open Source Community, but it s a project. I have was trying to help but you simply put things on my mouth and attacked me for your own twisted mind. Second time on a row you insits to attack before listen nor understand. And this time you made up something that I am taking leaving , taking the module trying to play games. What a twisted mind. There is no one would force me to leave this module if I insisted to translate it, you need to understand this. So do not make up a lie to satisfy you assumption that I am against arabeyes. > I think everyone can appreciate such effort. Unfortunately, just like > with the current system at Fedora, it does not help -- kind of like a > student who gets A for effort but fails the class anyway. Did you wait and see if the student would fail ? Goodness get over your sick assumption. > > [..] > > me with bull. I would appreciate if you forget about me > > You make it hard to forget about you ;) I will make sure to disapear from your screens so you forget me then. It is not funny and I am really sick and tired from this. Let me withdraw my objection on having anyone from Arabeyes to be the maintainer. Does that satisfy you?!! I promise you once they open immegration for Mars I will apply to leave the planet for you so you can get over your old memories and forget about me!! > Once again, "claims" are a by-product, it is by no means a "mission". > If you think you can put together a team and coordinate yourself, then > great. We would then hope to be able to coordinate standards of > translations together. It so happens that Arabeyes handles a handful of > translation projects (among other things). So, coordinating with > Arabeyes, whether you wish to go at it alone or with Arabeyes, is in > Fedora's best interest. As I said I am withdrawing my offer to help, and my objection. I will also not bother to proof reading or cheacking the translation. I will not raise any more flags that I have issues. Does that end this !! Goodness. > Yes, then withrdraw your objection and let us continue to do the work we > have been doing since March 12, 2004. Have fun .. continou whatever you want. I am out of here, and I withdraw being arabic speaking person as well as objecting to anything, satisfied ? I hope now that you just ignore me, and act as if I am not there, I will make sure to double check anything I do, if I see arabeyes I will just walk away. Do you want me to vote for Youcef as well to be maintainer or withdrawing my objection is enough for you!! Goodness. I am outta here. Thanks Sherif -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3R/+GEwRyeYJw+YRAstSAKCCiWQy3xfUE34GZ3Or7+JaaDSQyQCaA1Mi xNhGGlUVamZfQSFaGf4KX5g= =Bt5q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From josep at imatge-sintetica.com Sat Jun 26 07:48:43 2004 From: josep at imatge-sintetica.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 09:48:43 +0200 Subject: If there were translation teams... In-Reply-To: <40DD14A7.6060008@redhat.com> References: <1088227433.1190.169.camel@phobos> <40DD14A7.6060008@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1088236123.1192.257.camel@phobos> On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 08:16, Bernd Groh wrote: > Josep, > > >If there were translation teams, and I was the coordinator of my team... > > > > Isn't that the case? Do you want to be the maintainer of all modules for > catalan now or not? I haven't heard any objections, so it's yours for > the taking. :) I wanted to ask the other Catalan translators who are not subscribed here for comments, if they had any objections, etc, in our own mailing list (fedora at softcatala dot org). Although I haven't done that yet, I did apply as a maintainer for dist module (I was too lazy to go over all modules and apply for each one of them). [cut] > >All that... of course, if there were translation teams... > > > > Well, there are, we know that, don't we? :) > YES, there are! It is just that newcomers will not notice if we don't tell them (ok, they will notice there's a maintainer, though, but that's not enough). > >Briefly, combining teams with the new method have a lot of potential > >that we should explote. > > > >Again, this is only my view, and there might be flaws, if there are I > >hope you can spot them and tell me :) > > > > No, I didn't spot any flaws, a lot of your suggestions have already been > put in place with the new system. And that exactly is it what puzzles > me. Given you've just suggested a lot of things that we've just put in > place with the new status pages, why again is it that it is criticized > so much? Why even do people say it nullifies existing translation teams? Because they are not mentioned at all, nor they seem to be encouraged, and because if I am a new translator I wouldn't know who to contact to (GNOME tells me very clearly to check for my team's coordinator). I don't think that what Christian meant was that teams can not be implemented, I think he meant that teams are not needed at all, thus will hardly be created, because you have to consider that translation teams have lots of translators with the best intentions that get tired too quickly (at least in my short experience). > I don't have to get it, or do I? ;) > Note, I don't want to claim this as "my suggestions". This is just what I could come up with by trying to be constructive, and mixing the "new" method with the traditional [and sound] teams method. It seems to be what you had in mind from the beginning, but it wasn't clear to some of us. But don't forget that all my posts beg for the presence of teams, I want them badly because I think they are the best way to guarantee quality and consistency, plus I add that the new system has potential, and can be useful to the teams, but I don't think it will be good without them. > >Bernd: these might be the scriptures you were asking for :) > > > > Nah, that's pretty much the path I am going, as said, and a lot has been If the path you're going is the path we are going, maybe we should also know what the future plans are, and the direction we're taking. > implemented with the new upgrade. I simply won't restrict anyone cvs > access until we're fully organized, that's all. :) > Ok, why not speed it up a bit, then? How can we help? Seems to me that the crowds want teams. Then make a poll and check if that is so, and if it is, let's try to organize teams... Make a call for team building, or just look who's been committing for each language to find out who could be a maintainer (ask them to be maintainers, as you wanted us to ask translators to become part of our teams, I know you already did), or who could be a member of a team... Look the headers of the po files for email addresses of translators, see if they are subscribed here, maybe you could invite them to (maybe thank them for their work too)... We should all post what we think the next step should be... it costs nothing to do, and it will help a lot. I think that whatever the methodology/system for translations is going to be, it should be discussed in this list. Like I think this new method should have been discussed here too before being implemented. I mean, it is us (translators should be subscribed here) to whom it affect, and yet we didn't know about it until it appeared (at least I didn't). So... TRANSLATORS: if you want your views to be listened, speak up. Nothing that you would like to be implemented will be unless we ask it for. And for those that can implement things, thanks for doing so! And please, keep us up to date about the next move, maybe we can improve it, maybe we can even help with it! Best regards, /Josep From mitr at volny.cz Sat Jun 26 09:21:05 2004 From: mitr at volny.cz (Miloslav Trmac) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 11:21:05 +0200 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <40DD0DAE.9030501@redhat.com> References: <40DC236D.10007@redhat.com> <1088183906.5180.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1088210287.10001.778.camel@stina.menthos.com> <40DD0DAE.9030501@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040626092104.GA4470@chrys.ms.mff.cuni.cz> On Sat, Jun 26, 2004 at 03:46:22PM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: > Christian, > >Certainly. I believe everyone here is aware that people are usually > >speaking for themselves, without any particular hat on, unless otherwise > >stated. > > Why then did the email from arabeyes talk about fedora policies, though > they really only talked about what *I* said? Because you are special :) Few people on this list have the possibility to publish something on a *.redhat.com server. So whether you like it or not, anything you publish looks (more) official. Mirek From elzubeir at arabeyes.org Fri Jun 25 12:28:01 2004 From: elzubeir at arabeyes.org (Mohammed Elzubeir) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 05:28:01 -0700 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams Message-ID: <20040625122801.GA29955@arabeyes.org> Salam, This is intended to all translators involved in Fedora, whether they are involved for Arabic or any other language. It is also intended for the people who shape the policies and tools used by and for the translators. To all Arabeyes members who are involved in translations, I would strongly advise you to join the fedora translation list [1] to voice your opinions, in order to allow the Fedora maintainers to better understand our requirements. Introduction ------------ Fedora recently announced [2] a new system which nullifies pre-existing language translation teams. This is not to say that they had such an explicit policy, in the past but they are now saying that it is definitely not the policy. What do they want to do then? They want to have translator per module. What does this mean? Simple. There is module A that translator X can take, translate, release. Translator Y comes along, takes A, translates, releases. The same goes for modules B, C, etc. Sounds good, eh? More people can easily contribute. What this will result in is complete and utter chaos. Allow me to elaborate. The Loss of Consistency ----------------------- There will be absolutely no conherence among translations. Each translator, depending on their language skills will have their own interpretation of strings. They will also have their own vocabulary that will most certainly conflict with someone else's in the overall translation. The Loss of Quality Control --------------------------- Since there is no group overseeing the quality of the translation, there are no assurances that the quality of translation is up to any standard. So who says what is standard? In the case of Arabic, the Arabeyes Project [3] has set up a committee (Quality Assurance Comittee [4]) that is specifically tasked with overseeing such standardizations across all translation projects. This is something that other projects can learn from. However, with such a scheme standards published by the QAC have no means of being implemented. The Loss of Communication ------------------------- Since there is no group, each individual translator is on their own island with their own ideas of how things should be done. This does not affect Fedora alone. This affects how Arabic is translated across a variety of localized applications and libraries. This additionally creates a very serious problem for a large project, like Arabeyes. For example, in order to perform CVS sync's, the maintainer now has to manually see what module he still has control over and what modules he does not. In other words, a 5 minutes job will now take 50 minutes. The Loss of a Community ----------------------- This scheme completely obliterates the sense and spirit of a community. In the case of Arabic, this took very hard long years to build and foster. With such a scheme, this community no longer needs to exist and is simply put back to an individual doing a couple strings and going home forgetting about the work he/she has modified. The Loss of Credit ------------------ Arabeyes has taken great pains to ensuring that credit is given to each and every individual who has contributed in any way, shape or form. With the current scheme, this is no longer guaranteed. Conclusion ---------- Past experiences from projects such as KDE, GNOME, Mandrake, etc. should be a good reference point to anyone outlining a localization policy for a project of the size of Fedora. Fedora's point of view is, if a team maintainer is needed, we can do that, as long as no one objects. However, it is not clear as to what would be done if someone objects for no reason. I can simply sit there on the list and object to every maintainer who comes up, just in spite of the project. Would that be taken seriously? What if I have a personal agenda against an individual? Would that suffice? What if, what if? These questions do not have answers yet. It is our hope that this policy would be reviewed and discussed with the community of the many language teams and individual translators, before it is being made as policy. We also hope that this would result in a more reasonable policy that accounts to the fact that some languages already indeed have a large set of translators and contributors who are organized and structured. It is also our hope that other language teams of translators would join us in our plea to Fedora to re-consider this policy. References ---------- [1] https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list/ [2] https://listman.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2004-June/msg00046.html [3] http://www.arabeyes.org/ [4] http://wiki.arabeyes.org/QAC -- ------------------------------------------------------- | Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: | | | http://www.arabeyes.org/ | | Arabeyes Project | Homepage: | | Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ | ------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ Doc mailing list Doc at arabeyes.org http://lists.arabeyes.org/mailman/listinfo/doc From s.mako at gmx.net Fri Jun 25 13:32:08 2004 From: s.mako at gmx.net (Zoltan Kota) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:32:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: info needed Message-ID: Hi, I have received the message that my account is activated. Where can I find some info about how to work/start with translation? I haven't received any info about it. Thanks Zoltan From elzubeir at arabeyes.org Fri Jun 25 19:47:50 2004 From: elzubeir at arabeyes.org (Mohammed Elzubeir) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:47:50 -0700 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <40DC22E4.1090907@redhat.com> References: <20040625122801.GA29955@arabeyes.org> <40DC22E4.1090907@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040625194750.GB30176@arabeyes.org> On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 11:04:36PM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: DISCLAIMER: This does not represent the views of Arabeyes and are only my personal views. > Wow! I am completely and utterly confused now. For the record, the main > change that has been undertaken is the [Take], [Release] mechanism, that > is to prevent two translators from comitting at the same time. Can It also prevents a team to exert control over their language's translation. > anyone tell me what exactly happened here? *confused* We did not What happened here is that I have been watching Youcef get ridiculed and treated as if he is the sole translator of Fedora, and as if he wants total control of the translation for himself. For your information, Dr. Groh, this is not the case. There is a large team that stands behind Youcef. If there are a couple members (some of which are redhat employees) who feel that Arabeyes is not worthy of translating Fedora, then so be it. I would personally propose to Arabeyes to drop its efforts with Fedora and let the chaos ensue. > introduce any new policy, we merely, as said, implemented a mechanism to > prevent two translators from comitting at the same time. And one thing I Read above -- it does more than just prevent two translators from committing at the same time. > should mention, since I am not clear whether it is clear or not, though > it should be, what I am saying here on list is *not* Fedora policy, it > is *my* opinion. I believe in my opinion and in my right to state it, > that I've implemented this new system for the Fedora project has > absolutely nothing to do with it. And I am telling you that this system is a bad system. You should consider looking at how other projects have successfully been doing this. Regards -- ------------------------------------------------------- | Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: | | | http://www.arabeyes.org/ | | Arabeyes Project | Homepage: | | Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ | ------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From elzubeir at arabeyes.org Fri Jun 25 19:56:00 2004 From: elzubeir at arabeyes.org (Mohammed Elzubeir) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:56:00 -0700 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <1088183906.5180.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <40DC236D.10007@redhat.com> <1088183906.5180.29.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040625195600.GC30176@arabeyes.org> On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 01:18:27PM -0400, Sherif Abdelgwad wrote: > First, I am just a stating *my own* openion here and it is > not *fedora* openion or redhat. Likewise, DISCLAIMER: The following does NOT represent Arabeyes' views in any way, shape or form. These are my personal views and I stand 100% by them. > I am getting confused and lost in the long emails. Can Mohamed or > Youcef please explain in short email, in points : what are the No, read the long emails. Reading it takes a shorter amount of time than it takes for you to write this response. > problems as I failed to follow all long emails here. I do not > see any changes in the policys, the only thing happened was > to prevent multiple translators committing changes at same time. No, that's not all tha thas happened. Read my response to Groh. > I went through Mohamed email and I am not sure where all these > issues came from? It comes from you objecting for Youcef to become the maintainer of the Arabic trasnaltion. What gives YOU the right to object, without giving any reasoning? > > I belive that by people establish teams here, things will be > start to shape and take better form. Let me ask first, > when Arabeyes started translation, did they have full list > of things how it should be? Things are still being built and > taking final shape. I belive in the freedom of allowing > people to contribute. > And you are suggesitng that Arabeyes does NOT provide this freedom? This is a rather unacceptable attack that has no basis and is completely uncalled for. > The main goal I see here is to provide traslation. Is the > translation provided by certain people will be final and > for good? I doubt! To establish a translation first is the > first step. I belive yet to come a lot of tuning and enhancement. Yes, I believe Arabeyes has been doing this for long enough to know these steps. > I am not aginst keeping things the same across all modules, > and similar to other translations. For sure will be great Oh please. Be against it ;) > to have team like Arabeyes team to contribute. Yet, why > assuming anyone else who would like to contribute would > cause a mess because s/he decided not to be part of Arabeyes. Ask that question to why anyone would want to join any translation team? This is a silly question and it has no meaning. If it is because you hate the Arabeyes project (for your own reasons, you are entitled to them, so am I, eh?).. and you don't want to be a part of it, but you want to translate for fedora... if that is the case, STATE it. In which case, just like I told Groh, I would personally prefer if Arabeyes withdraws completely from Fedora and wish you happy translating. > So, to keep this discussion constructive, can we discuss > here what are the requirment or the right way someone think > the system should be ? I had hard time to get clear requirment > or request. I only found hey this policy is no good, why > this should be this way. It would be better to be hey > why do not we have things this way. Perhaps you missed THIS part? > > > > > >Past experiences from projects such as KDE, GNOME, Mandrake, etc. should be a > > >good reference point to anyone outlining a localization policy for a project > > >of the size of Fedora. Fedora's point of view is, if a team maintainer > > >is needed, we can do that, as long as no one objects. However, it is not -- ------------------------------------------------------- | Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: | | | http://www.arabeyes.org/ | | Arabeyes Project | Homepage: | | Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ | ------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From elzubeir at arabeyes.org Sat Jun 26 05:54:27 2004 From: elzubeir at arabeyes.org (Mohammed Elzubeir) Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 22:54:27 -0700 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: References: <20040625195600.GC30176@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <20040626055427.GA3995@arabeyes.org> On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 05:05:02PM -0400, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > > No, read the long emails. Reading it takes a shorter amount of time than > > it takes for you to write this response. > > I guess it was mistake to even try to reply, thank .. no need for me to > read anything. Wasting my time. Then why are you replying? ;) I think we all want to get this done in the best way it can be for Arabic. > I am an arabic speaking person who has the right to object .. Who > ar YOU to talk like this? I stand to my right to object and Well, that explains it. You are Arabic speaking, so you object. I don't mean to burst your bubble here, but I am questioning the rationale behind the objection, not your mother tongue. I object to Fedora's current system because I find it counter-productive for translations. I clearly stated why it is so, and I pointed to other projects which have been doing this successfully. You are objecting because you have the right to? I'm not sure I follow the logic involved. A logical reason would be, "Youcef and his team are doing a poor job, so poor that it is beyond repair. I would like to take over his role and fix those problems." Even with that, I would disagree, but at least it is a somewhat logical reason. Your reason is, I have the right to. > it is not only me who object , yet it is not me who decide Well, those who object should speak out then. Is it an embarassing thing? > [..] > > I did not acuse nor attacked arabyes so drop the defencive > tone here, and focus on the translation effort, after all > this is fedora community not arabeyes community. I am talking > about teams here composed from people regardless if they > belong to certain group or lug. You are right, I may be unnecessarily defensive. However, I am very well aware of your feelings about Arabeyes as a whole -- which you made abundantly clear in the past to other people. > > good so discuss the steps you want, tell the ppl here what > you need instead of wasting time on attacking, be objetive, > unless it is a mession that arabeyes.org is to claim it has > all the arabization effort, and you are defencing that. Oh no. Our mission is to bring Arabic to Linux and Unix, Arabeyes is but a vehicle. I think your ill feelings about Arabeyes stem from the very misunderstanding of what Arabeyes is. > [..] > > If I wanted to do anything I would have done it. I did release > the module once I knew there is _someone_ who still activly > translating it. I could not care less if it is arabeyes represntitive > or normal person. I am entitle to my openion as an arabic speaking Believe it or not, Arabeyes members are normal people (at least most of us think of ourselves as normal ;). You are, however, contradicting yourself. You don't mind releasing the module (which you have released and taken and released, etc.) but you mind Youcef being the maintainer (oh, because you have the right to?). I am rather perplexed by all that. > person who would like to contribute in an open source project, > and I am not taking any privilages over here, so stop acusing > me as I never acused arabeyes. My openion about certain group Yes you have. I have no intentions of digging into that -- I am simply pointing out that you are already carrying some old baggage against Arabeyes and so it should be noted. In other words, I don't take your opinion as unbiased or objective -- and I ask others to consider this when reading your opinions. > [..] > > > Are you threatening to leave unless I go away or not > talk over here? I am not sure what is your problem? Unfortunately (for me), and fortunately for the Arab Open Source community, I do not have the say in this. I can simply suggest it. > It seems you missing something here .. I never attacked > arabeyes here nor acused you guys with anything, I said You are right. Not here. > I have issues with the translation here, did you ever > care to ask me what are my concerns ? You always jump I believe Youcef has asked you to explain your issues. This is why Arabeyes exists, in case you haven't noticed. It provides an open forum for people to discuss such issues. We setup QAC specifically for this. You are still free to join the QAC and participate in forming such decisions. > to defence blindly first, attacking and talk in such > a way far from being professional. Yet, everytime you It takes two to tango. > greatly manage to make me regret to even do anything > for the middle east or the arab ppl, or even think > about translation. That is your prerogative. > Look here and see the emails before you attack .. I had > no idea no intention to do anything , I did [not] claim that > Arabeyes did not translate almost all the po files, I think it would help if you also think of Arabeyes as "The Arab Open Source Community". We are not a commercial entity. I know you didn't say that we were, but sometimes it is good to point it out. > I found an object which needs translation, oh I have > time now, then I decided to translate it. Took one full > day to check the other translation so that my translation > seems odd. Yet all what I get acusing "that person has > nothing to do with translation" , "that person hates > arabeyes" , "that person did not contribute ..etc" I think everyone can appreciate such effort. Unfortunately, just like with the current system at Fedora, it does not help -- kind of like a student who gets A for effort but fails the class anyway. > [..] > me with bull. I would appreciate if you forget about me You make it hard to forget about you ;) > and just focus on translation if that is the real goal. > If your real goal is Arabeyes to be the organization > which have claim arabization of Fedora & Red Hat just > state this and deal with a professional demand on that. Once again, "claims" are a by-product, it is by no means a "mission". If you think you can put together a team and coordinate yourself, then great. We would then hope to be able to coordinate standards of translations together. It so happens that Arabeyes handles a handful of translation projects (among other things). So, coordinating with Arabeyes, whether you wish to go at it alone or with Arabeyes, is in Fedora's best interest. > Perhaps I was totally wrong to even talk here. Wasted > my time and got accused. Have fun translating and > maintaing the arabic modules if you wish. Yes, then withrdraw your objection and let us continue to do the work we have been doing since March 12, 2004. > > [..] -- ------------------------------------------------------- | Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: | | | http://www.arabeyes.org/ | | Arabeyes Project | Homepage: | | Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ | ------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From elzubeir at arabeyes.org Sat Jun 26 07:33:39 2004 From: elzubeir at arabeyes.org (Mohammed Elzubeir) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 00:33:39 -0700 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: References: <20040626055427.GA3995@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <20040626073339.GA5051@arabeyes.org> On Sat, Jun 26, 2004 at 03:04:28AM -0400, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > > [..] > I think this thread has gotten a bit too dodgy. Let's start from scratch. - From Groh's last post, I now understand that this is all in the process and all this is till being formed. Fair enough. - You have certain issues with the translations themselves. Could you please explain what they are to us, so we can rectify them? - You have certain issues with the way Arabeyes handles things (so far Arabeyes officially has not done anything, so I'm not sure what you are referring to -- but if you do have such issues, we would be happy to hear constructive criticism on the 'general' list). It is obvious that you and I and everyone else is only interested in Arabic being properly supported. So I for one, will stop the arguing. /me extends hand to shake on peace ;) Regards -- ------------------------------------------------------- | Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: | | | http://www.arabeyes.org/ | | Arabeyes Project | Homepage: | | Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ | ------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From elzubeir at arabeyes.org Sat Jun 26 10:52:02 2004 From: elzubeir at arabeyes.org (Mohammed Elzubeir) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 03:52:02 -0700 Subject: Arabic Maintainership Message-ID: <20040626105202.GA6570@arabeyes.org> Salam, I think I need to re-trace myself and remove all the passion out of my correspondences. Youcef is a member of the Arabeyes project, like many others, including myself. Arabeyes is involved in several projects, some of which are translations. We have evolved to have a certain model of doing this, which in my opinion, has been successful -- this is not to say that there isn't room for improvement (there's plenty of that). Youcef has started this project (local to Arabeyes) upon receiving what was understood to be maintainership of the Arabic language translations for Fedora. This has been a misunderstanding, as Arabic was never assigned a maintainer. However, we have continued to work under that wrong impression. So, we have our CVS, project page, mailing-lists as well as QAC to be followed by Fedora's Arabic translation (along with other translation projects). The beauty of this is that other translators can seamlessly translate for Fedora, KDE, GNOME, Mandrake, Debian, etc. since they are all on the same CVS. Most don't, but several translators enjoy being able to work on more than one project without having to deal with the many projects systems individually. In other words, Arabeyes simplifies this process by creating a single-point of contact. We then worry about the sync'ing with the other projects' CVS repositories. As I understand now, Fedora does accommodate to maintainers, but is still in its early stages of setting up for translations. In other words, some of the things that are wanted are still being worked on. I also understand that as long as there are no objections, Youcef can assume the role of maintainer. I also understand that there are in fact objections. It is unfortunate that these objections are not made public. The only person who has publically made an objection was Sherif. His concern was "issues with the translations" and "issues with the way Arabeyes handles things". In other words, there are still no publically cited concrete reasons to back these objections My question then is, what makes an objection justifiable for a rejection of an application to maintainership? Who are those other(s) people and what are there reasons? Are those reasons not work-able within the same framework that Youcef is implementing? The problem here is that if Youcef is not granted maintainership of the Arabic translation, it becomes impossible for Arabeyes to fit it under its current framework. In other words, this would in effect force Arabeyes to drop the project. This would mean that the 7 current translators for the project, excluding Youcef himself (let alone the others who overflow from other translation projects from time to time) will not be able to contribute to Fedora's translations. We will be forced to re-assign them to other projects. I apologize for the long emails, but I believe that explaining the background of Arabeyes's work methodology and Youcef's role in this can help others better understand why this is important. So, if Groh is the person who calls the shot on who is maintainer and who is not (I gather this from his offer to the Swedish maintainer), then I would ask him to consider all the above. Regards -- ------------------------------------------------------- | Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: | | | http://www.arabeyes.org/ | | Arabeyes Project | Homepage: | | Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ | ------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From sabdelg at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 11:06:02 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:06:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <20040625194750.GB30176@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote: > > anyone tell me what exactly happened here? *confused* We did not > > What happened here is that I have been watching Youcef get ridiculed and > treated as if he is the sole translator of Fedora, and as if he wants > total control of the translation for himself. For your information, Dr. > Groh, this is not the case. There is a large team that stands behind > Youcef. If there are a couple members (some of which are redhat > employees) who feel that Arabeyes is not worthy of translating Fedora, > then so be it. I would personally propose to Arabeyes to drop its > efforts with Fedora and let the chaos ensue. Mohammed, Red Hat employees are just normal contributor here. This has been mentioned more than one time, so I will appreciate if you make your case without implying that redhat employees are forcing you to do something because it is not the case. Thanks Sherif -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3VicGEwRyeYJw+YRAtvWAJ9gf3zy8mY21AkJvaxCXhBU9MuKmgCeKqyE I2CGoEucbyHNwwc1Y2R+ZWs= =I+bd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sarahs at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 11:07:07 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:07:07 +1000 Subject: info needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088248027.2251.8.camel@cpe-144-136-136-233.qld.bigpond.net.au> Hi Zoltan, Have a look at the following email first: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/private/fedora-trans-list/2003-December/msg00001.html If you are still unclear about anything, please feel free to ask. Sarah On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 23:32, Zoltan Kota wrote: > Hi, > > I have received the message that my account is activated. > Where can I find some info about how to work/start with translation? > I haven't received any info about it. > > Thanks > Zoltan > > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From sabdelg at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 11:32:31 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:32:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arabic Maintainership In-Reply-To: <20040626105202.GA6570@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Disclaimer: Whatever stated here is my own view and openion, has nothing to do with redhat nor Fedora Project. Note: I will keep stating the above disclaimer till Mr. Mohammed stop treating my msgs as redhat employee. On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote: > Youcef is a member of the Arabeyes project, like many others, including > myself. Arabeyes is involved in several projects, some of which are > translations. We have evolved to have a certain model of doing this, > which in my opinion, has been successful -- this is not to say that there > isn't room for improvement (there's plenty of that). You can not force your way or request to have everything the way you used to do. Wait and see how this is being handled. I belive the model here is not ment to be only for arabic ppl to translate. So do not assume that a system here does not fit your needs because you personally has another model. > Youcef has started this project (local to Arabeyes) upon receiving what > was understood to be maintainership of the Arabic language translations for > Fedora. This has been a misunderstanding, as Arabic was never assigned a > maintainer. However, we have continued to work under that wrong > impression. So, we have our CVS, project page, mailing-lists as well as QAC > to be followed by Fedora's Arabic translation (along with other translation > projects). Before you propose anything, we need to establish Fedora Arabic translation team. Regardless if the translators are from Arabeyes or from any other group or indeviduals, I belive the frame work under the current established process (which still to be finished) is able to accommodate all. > The beauty of this is that other translators can seamlessly translate > for Fedora, KDE, GNOME, Mandrake, Debian, etc. since they are all on the > same CVS. Most don't, but several translators enjoy being able to work on > more than one project without having to deal with the many projects systems > individually. In other words, Arabeyes simplifies this process by creating > a single-point of contact. We then worry about the sync'ing with the > other projects' CVS repositories. I am not sure if we to care about CVS and other process carried anywhere else. I doubt that all other translations keep the same model you are talking about, and I see no reason why we should force a different model for arabic. There is mailing list, we can have arabic mailing list under fedora project to serve for arabic translators, there is CVS, and I doubt that we need to confuse new commers to go to different project proxying the work. > As I understand now, Fedora does accommodate to maintainers, but is still > in its early stages of setting up for translations. In other words, some of > the things that are wanted are still being worked on. I also understand > that as long as there are no objections, Youcef can assume the role of > maintainer. I would prefer that you do not assume here anything. Things are still not finalized nor a process in place. > I also understand that there are in fact objections. It is > unfortunate that these objections are not made public. The only person who > has publically made an objection was Sherif. His concern was "issues with > the translations" and "issues with the way Arabeyes handles things". In > other words, there are still no publically cited concrete reasons to back > these objections > > My question then is, what makes an objection justifiable for a rejection of > an application to maintainership? Who are those other(s) people and what > are there reasons? Are those reasons not work-able within the same > framework that Youcef is implementing? I am not sure if I understand you correct. There is something I need to ask here. If I step into a project, do I tell them hey guys I have system and I demand to be the owner as I have similar effort. What you need to understand that this is a Fedora Project, and any effort done should be under the Fedora Project. > The problem here is that if Youcef is not granted maintainership of the Arabic > translation, it becomes impossible for Arabeyes to fit it under its current > framework. In other words, this would in effect force Arabeyes to drop > the project. This would mean that the 7 current translators for the project, > excluding Youcef himself (let alone the others who overflow from other > translation projects from time to time) will not be able to contribute > to Fedora's translations. We will be forced to re-assign them to other projects. Why it would be impossible for Arabeyes to fit here? I thought you said Arabeyes cares about Linux and help providing arabic translation to most of the projects. I do not understand the demand to grant maintainership or else. Basically if some one is not in Arabeyes should not contribute to Fedora Arabic translation? Fedora project is public open source project I am not sure why anyone should get exclusive maintainership. Basically the framework here will make it easy for ANYONE to contribute. I do not see if you really care about providing arabic translation why the demand on controling that. No one told you that what you do will be taken from you or credited to someone else. So where is that control thing coming from? > I apologize for the long emails, but I believe that explaining the > background of Arabeyes's work methodology and Youcef's role in this can > help others better understand why this is important. I am not sure why this is important yet. I would care to discuss specific arabic translation, contribute, discuss how the system should be not asking for force outside system or else you are not contributing. I still would ask you to relax and let things get its final shape. Tone of threatening that if you do not give me this I am not working will not get anything done. It seems you jumped to so many assumption and acted ont it in your privious emails. You went later saying "now I understand" so it would be nice to start with listen first and ask to clear things before jumping to conculsion. Again I will appreciate to stop saying "redhat employees" it is has been cleared to you more than time that Red Hat Employees are no different than the other contributors here, so which part of this you are not getting? You got me really so worked up with your way of talking and addressing things, and I am not sure that you would reach your goal of helping the arabic community with the way you insists to address issues here. There was no issue to start with. Yet, you made a big deal and start accusing. You made up a story that modules is been taken and released retaken ..etc I still do not know where did you make this up from. What I see that you have been helped and requests for helpping release modules, access ..etc has been granted. Last request for the 10 time do not address "redhat employees" becase this is an accusion which is not true. I hope I made myself clear. So relax and stop threatening that things will be droped if your demands is not granted. Let us get in a friendly talk here to work things out. Also try to understand this is an open source project not an arabeyes project. Thanks Sherif -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3V7RGEwRyeYJw+YRAk5sAJ9mYHPtsR0x+Ju2aF7qNN9s5rD/wACgxxU2 +UkiMsz2iWZ2QQ7HeciKgXQ= =RKCa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sarahs at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 11:48:05 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 21:48:05 +1000 Subject: Arabic Maintainership In-Reply-To: <20040626105202.GA6570@arabeyes.org> References: <20040626105202.GA6570@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <1088250484.2251.67.camel@cpe-144-136-136-233.qld.bigpond.net.au> Hi all, I have requested a new mailing list fedora-trans-ar to be set up for everyone who is involved in Arabic translation for Fedora project. It will be announced in this list as soon as it's available. Fedora-trans-list is used to discuss general Fedora translation issues. For language specific issues please move to individual language list. If you would like to have your own language mailing list, please contact me offline. When I get 5 or more requests I will request to have a separate list set up. The first person contact me will be the default list maintainer. Regards, Sarah On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 20:52, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote: > Salam, > > I think I need to re-trace myself and remove all the passion out of my > correspondences. > > Youcef is a member of the Arabeyes project, like many others, including > myself. Arabeyes is involved in several projects, some of which are > translations. We have evolved to have a certain model of doing this, > which in my opinion, has been successful -- this is not to say that there > isn't room for improvement (there's plenty of that). > > Youcef has started this project (local to Arabeyes) upon receiving what > was understood to be maintainership of the Arabic language translations for > Fedora. This has been a misunderstanding, as Arabic was never assigned a > maintainer. However, we have continued to work under that wrong > impression. So, we have our CVS, project page, mailing-lists as well as QAC > to be followed by Fedora's Arabic translation (along with other translation > projects). > > The beauty of this is that other translators can seamlessly translate > for Fedora, KDE, GNOME, Mandrake, Debian, etc. since they are all on the > same CVS. Most don't, but several translators enjoy being able to work on > more than one project without having to deal with the many projects systems > individually. In other words, Arabeyes simplifies this process by creating > a single-point of contact. We then worry about the sync'ing with the > other projects' CVS repositories. > > As I understand now, Fedora does accommodate to maintainers, but is still > in its early stages of setting up for translations. In other words, some of > the things that are wanted are still being worked on. I also understand > that as long as there are no objections, Youcef can assume the role of > maintainer. I also understand that there are in fact objections. It is > unfortunate that these objections are not made public. The only person who > has publically made an objection was Sherif. His concern was "issues with > the translations" and "issues with the way Arabeyes handles things". In > other words, there are still no publically cited concrete reasons to back > these objections > > My question then is, what makes an objection justifiable for a rejection of > an application to maintainership? Who are those other(s) people and what > are there reasons? Are those reasons not work-able within the same > framework that Youcef is implementing? > > The problem here is that if Youcef is not granted maintainership of the Arabic > translation, it becomes impossible for Arabeyes to fit it under its current > framework. In other words, this would in effect force Arabeyes to drop > the project. This would mean that the 7 current translators for the project, > excluding Youcef himself (let alone the others who overflow from other > translation projects from time to time) will not be able to contribute > to Fedora's translations. We will be forced to re-assign them to other projects. > > I apologize for the long emails, but I believe that explaining the > background of Arabeyes's work methodology and Youcef's role in this can > help others better understand why this is important. > > So, if Groh is the person who calls the shot on who is maintainer and who > is not (I gather this from his offer to the Swedish maintainer), then I would > ask him to consider all the above. > > Regards From sabdelg at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 11:55:28 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:55:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fedora-trans-ar (fwd) Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:54:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Sherif Abdelgawad To: sarahs at redhat.com Cc: sabdelg at redhat.com Subject: fedora-trans-ar - --[PinePGP]--------------------------------------------------[begin]-- Hi Sarah, As per your email. I am requesting the arabic mailing list to setup. Thanks Sherif - --[PinePGP]----------------------------------------------------------- gpg: Warning: using insecure memory! gpg: please see http://www.gnupg.org/faq.html for more information gpg: Signature made Sat 26 Jun 2004 07:54:08 AM EDT using DSA key ID E609C3E6 gpg: Good signature from "Sherif Abdelgawad " - --[PinePGP]----------------------------------------------------[end]-- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3WQzGEwRyeYJw+YRAsmuAJ975p2pf26dZPh7vf+TlNqbv61PowCbBCk7 66IWxULraD/mcgPZK8vGfT0= =W6OA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From elzubeir at arabeyes.org Sat Jun 26 12:05:53 2004 From: elzubeir at arabeyes.org (Mohammed Elzubeir) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 05:05:53 -0700 Subject: Arabic Maintainership In-Reply-To: References: <20040626105202.GA6570@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <20040626120553.GA7328@arabeyes.org> On Sat, Jun 26, 2004 at 07:32:31AM -0400, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > > Disclaimer: Whatever stated here is my own view and openion, > has nothing to do with redhat nor Fedora Project. > > Note: I will keep stating the above disclaimer till Mr. Mohammed > stop treating my msgs as redhat employee. Noted. > You can not force your way or request to have everything the > way you used to do. Wait and see how this is being handled. I think you are misunderstanding me here. I am simply trying to be part of this process, instead of waiting to see it happening magically. Isn't this the spirity of Open Source, an open dialogue? > I belive the model here is not ment to be only for arabic ppl > to translate. So do not assume that a system here does not > fit your needs because you personally has another model. It's not a personal issue, Sherif. This is simply explaining why we are having a hard time accommodating with this. If you have suggestions as to how we can work around it, then that would be great. > Before you propose anything, we need to establish Fedora Arabic > translation team. Regardless if the translators are from Arabeyes There already is a Fedora Arabic translation team -- it is simply not recognized by Fedora itself. There are 7 members (excluding Youcef) involved in this. > or from any other group or indeviduals, I belive the frame work > under the current established process (which still to be finished) > is able to accommodate all. This is my/our hope. I am sure that if we all keep our heads leveled, we can reach a solution that would fit (almost) everyone ;) > I am not sure if we to care about CVS and other process carried anywhere > else. I doubt that all other translations keep the same model you > are talking about, and I see no reason why we should force a different > model for arabic. There is mailing list, we can have arabic mailing Not really forcing any different model. Our model has been created to fit around the pre-existing large projects (e.g. GNOME, KDE, Debian, etc.). Also, as I understand it, even Fedora's current model can fit nicely with this. I have misunderstood the system and from what I now understand from Groh's posts, if there is a maintainer, there is no problem at all for Arabeyes' model to fit nicely. > list under fedora project to serve for arabic translators, there > is CVS, and I doubt that we need to confuse new commers to go to > different project proxying the work. Most projects do offer language-specific mailing-lists if the translation team is unable to have its own. We have our own, so we don't need that option. > I would prefer that you do not assume here anything. Things are still > not finalized nor a process in place. I am not making any assumptions, I am simply stating what I understand -- so if I am mistaken I can be corrected. > I am not sure if I understand you correct. There is something I need > to ask here. If I step into a project, do I tell them hey guys > I have system and I demand to be the owner as I have similar effort. > What you need to understand that this is a Fedora Project, and any > effort done should be under the Fedora Project. Not at all! That is not what I am saying. I am not saying that we have a system. I am saying that we have a team of 8 translators assigned to the project with one of them being the maintainer. This person (Youcef) woud like to assume the role of maintainership w/ Fedora. That's all. > Why it would be impossible for Arabeyes to fit here? I thought you said > Arabeyes cares about Linux and help providing arabic translation > to most of the projects. I do not understand the demand to grant Sherif, it is not exactly impossible, it is just so difficult that it makes it hardly worth the effort. For example, we have modules A, B, C, D, E anf F. Arabeyes Fedora maintainer (not recognized by Fedora as the maintainer) owns A, B, C and D. He improts it to Arabeyes' CVS. The translation team works on it. Someone who is not involved in this team but is interested in Fedora's Arabic translation grabs E and F. He works on it, commits it directly to Fedora's CVS. Now, when the Arabeyes Fedora maintainer attemptes to sync, he will get a whole bunch of errors and conflicts because he does not have ownership over the E and F modules. He then has to keep track of those modules, each time. > maintainership or else. Basically if some one is not in Arabeyes > should not contribute to Fedora Arabic translation? Fedora project What I am saying is, essentially someone has to maintain it. If it's not Arabeyes, then someone else. Arabeyes cannot maintain it _and_ have people commit directly to Fedora's CVS at the same time. It just makes the job too difficult. Again, if you have such strong objections against Arabeyes doing this (and find that people may not want to join the project), that is fine. Assemble a team of translators and do it yourself then. I am sure Arabeyes will still support the effort in any capacity it can. > is public open source project I am not sure why anyone should > get exclusive maintainership. Basically the framework here will That is how all the other projects have done it. Arabeyes itself is also public and open source. The only thing that differentiates it from Fedora is that it is a grass-roots project, whereas Fedora has a commercial entity (RedHat) behind it. > make it easy for ANYONE to contribute. I do not see if you really > care about providing arabic translation why the demand on controling > that. No one told you that what you do will be taken from you > or credited to someone else. So where is that control thing coming > from? It is not control in the sense that you have understood. The control I want is for the quality, not for the project itself. Whether Fedora is done by Arabeyes or not, will not make a big difference to Arabeyes as a project. > I am not sure why this is important yet. I would care to discuss > specific arabic translation, contribute, discuss how the system > should be not asking for force outside system or else you are > not contributing. Please do. Let us discuss the specifics. I am sure we can all benefit from a discussion of this type. > I still would ask you to relax and let things get its final shape. > Tone of threatening that if you do not give me this I am not working > will not get anything done. I am not threatening, really. I am simply trying to help here. I realize that my tone in the past couple posts has been a little too passionate and for this reason I am removing passion from my posts. I am not saying we will not work because we don't like the system. I am saying we are not going to be able to work because of not getting maintainership. That's all. > It seems you jumped to so many assumption and acted ont it > in your privious emails. You went later saying "now I understand" > so it would be nice to start with listen first and ask to clear > things before jumping to conculsion. Again I will appreciate We all make mistakes, eh? ;) > to stop saying "redhat employees" it is has been cleared > to you more than time that Red Hat Employees are no different > than the other contributors here, so which part of this > you are not getting? Noted, again. > > You got me really so worked up with your way of talking > and addressing things, and I am not sure that you would > reach your goal of helping the arabic community with > the way you insists to address issues here. Where else would you like me to address those issues? > There was no issue to start with. Yet, you made > a big deal and start accusing. You made up a story > that modules is been taken and released retaken ..etc > I still do not know where did you make this up from. Yes, I believe there was a misunderstanding on our part (I believe it wasn't just us, there were a few people who did not understand the new status page system). > [..] > I hope I made myself clear. So relax and stop > threatening that things will be droped if your > demands is not granted. Let us get in a friendly > talk here to work things out. Also try to understand > this is an open source project not an arabeyes > project. Sure -- hence my previous mail to you ;) Since both _are_ Open Source projects (that last sentence almost makes it sound like Arabeyes is not), they are brothers and sisters.. so they will be pulling one another's hairs from time to time -- but they will always love one another ;) Regards -- ------------------------------------------------------- | Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: | | | http://www.arabeyes.org/ | | Arabeyes Project | Homepage: | | Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ | ------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From sabdelg at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 12:14:27 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 08:14:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arabic Maintainership In-Reply-To: <20040626120553.GA7328@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mohammed, Good that we reached this point. Sarah is going to setup fedora-trans-ar so we can start discussing the arabic issues there. I will wait till the mailing list are up and running, so we can move there. I am sure we can work things out now, as things start to be cleared for both sides. No hard feeling from my side, and I hope same at your end. Thanks Sherif -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3WilGEwRyeYJw+YRAuQaAKDLt6Cr2rlkPwfL13vj2OR5VCfOkQCdFR30 RbgJUYkHcyD3K0cC9FE5nrw= =wKZb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From elzubeir at arabeyes.org Sat Jun 26 12:18:40 2004 From: elzubeir at arabeyes.org (Mohammed Elzubeir) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 05:18:40 -0700 Subject: Arabic Maintainership In-Reply-To: References: <20040626120553.GA7328@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <20040626121840.GB7328@arabeyes.org> On Sat, Jun 26, 2004 at 08:14:27AM -0400, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > > Mohammed, > Good that we reached this point. Sarah is going > to setup fedora-trans-ar so we can start discussing > the arabic issues there. I will wait till the mailing > list are up and running, so we can move there. You can carry this discussion over to doc at arabeyes until the fedora list is up and running. I will setup the list to be able to post to the Arabeyes doc list and subscribe the doc list to it so peopl eon the arabeyes doc list can be involved in the discussion. We would like to consolidate things as much as possible so as many people as possible can be involved in discussions. > I am sure we can work things out now, as things > start to be cleared for both sides. No hard > feeling from my side, and I hope same at your end. > "safi ya laban" ;) Regards -- ------------------------------------------------------- | Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: | | | http://www.arabeyes.org/ | | Arabeyes Project | Homepage: | | Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ | ------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From alan at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 14:09:08 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 10:09:08 -0400 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <20040626055427.GA3995@arabeyes.org> References: <20040625195600.GC30176@arabeyes.org> <20040626055427.GA3995@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <20040626140908.GA30617@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:54:27PM -0700, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote: > Then why are you replying? ;) I think we all want to get this done in the > best way it can be for Arabic. I think this argument illustrates the problem from the Fedora/Red Hat viewpoint nicely. When someone contributes it is generally a good thing. At the same time if there is a large community accepted project currently doing the translation it is a good thing if that community is doing all the work and keeping it consistent. However - Our translation admins don't have a perfect knowledge of all translation teams - Some of them are split by bitter long running disputes so there is no right answer - Language teams have a habit of appearing *after* someone has done the first 99% of the translations All this would probably be perfectly harmless except that to some groups of people language, it's style, and "correctness" by some definition is an incredibly important issue either for social, religious or political reasons. The second problem here is I suspect a cultural difference - while the Arabic translators may be used to trading essays with references a lot of Westerners tend not to bother to read long things but like concise short arguments. Having read those long posts I do not see why the new translation tools are being blamed. They happened to come into existance at the same time as the problem but that is all. The underlying problem appears to be that there is a generally recognized project for Arabic translation and Fedora doesn't currently reflect that - or other similar situations where there is a clear project. Where there is not a clear group or where that group is small enough that everyone really does know everyone else (as for example in the Welsh translation group) the new system works well and helps. Is the real solution in the case of translations with an established team, actively translating Fedora simply to point all new signups for Arabic to the Arabeyes project ? Or are there groups of Arabic translators who have problems with the basis of Arabeyes ? Alan From elzubeir at arabeyes.org Sat Jun 26 19:53:12 2004 From: elzubeir at arabeyes.org (Mohammed Elzubeir) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 12:53:12 -0700 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <20040626140908.GA30617@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20040625195600.GC30176@arabeyes.org> <20040626055427.GA3995@arabeyes.org> <20040626140908.GA30617@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <20040626195312.GA12358@arabeyes.org> On Sat, Jun 26, 2004 at 10:09:08AM -0400, Alan Cox wrote: > [..] > > - Language teams have a habit of appearing *after* someone has > done the first 99% of the translations That may be the case -- but it hasn't been in our experience. When we first took over the Fedora translation, we had a total of 5 translated strings out of 10664 [1]. Today, we stand at 89% [2], with the disputed dist.po being the only file that is not at 100%. I am not sure what has been sync'ed back to Fedora's CVS so far, but we have obviously suspended translations until we figure out where we stand. > The second problem here is I suspect a cultural difference - while the > Arabic translators may be used to trading essays with references a lot > of Westerners tend not to bother to read long things but like concise short > arguments. I usually write short to-the-point posts, but I felt it was necessary to give a background to those who are not familiar with Arabeyes' work, in order to be able to appreciate the magnitude of the issue (to us). > Having read those long posts I do not see why the new translation tools > are being blamed. They happened to come into existance at the same time > as the problem but that is all. The underlying problem appears to be > that there is a generally recognized project for Arabic translation and > Fedora doesn't currently reflect that - or other similar situations where > there is a clear project. Right on target. The system was misunderstood (apparently by more than just us). > > [..] > > Is the real solution in the case of translations with an established > team, actively translating Fedora simply to point all new signups > for Arabic to the Arabeyes project ? Or are there groups of Arabic > translators who have problems with the basis of Arabeyes ? > Another question would be, what can be done when there is another group of translators objecting to the pre-existing one, which has been doing the vast majority of the work? References: [1] http://www.arabeyes.org/~elzubeir/fedora_begin_status.html [2] http://www.arabeyes.org/misc/fedora_status_bar.html Regards, -- ------------------------------------------------------- | Mohammed Elzubeir | Visit us at: | | | http://www.arabeyes.org/ | | Arabeyes Project | Homepage: | | Unix the 'right' way | http://elzubeir.fakkir.net/ | ------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From okhayat at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 21:39:39 2004 From: okhayat at yahoo.com (Ossama Khayat) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 14:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fedora Arabic translation Message-ID: <20040626213939.75758.qmail@web54110.mail.yahoo.com> Salam all, I'm a major contributor to the Arabeyes and Fedora translation projects. I've been happily working on these two - and other - projects without any issues. I was surprised feeling the possibility of dropping the project translation because of some people objecting on the group's work, and not accepting Youcef to be the maintainer of the translation project. He always had the great spirit of the true supporter more than just a coordinator. It's really unclear why those people object/reject Arabeyes work and/or to coordinate with it. We always had new comers and I never heard of someone who was rejected in anyway. ===== regards, Ossama Khayat __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sabdelg at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 21:43:12 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 17:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <20040626140908.GA30617@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Alan Cox wrote: > On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:54:27PM -0700, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote: > All this would probably be perfectly harmless except that to some groups > of people language, it's style, and "correctness" by some definition is > an incredibly important issue either for social, religious or political > reasons. That is my point and concern which I wanted to discuss with Arabeyes and I will. > The second problem here is I suspect a cultural difference - while the > Arabic translators may be used to trading essays with references a lot > of Westerners tend not to bother to read long things but like concise short > arguments. Right point. > Having read those long posts I do not see why the new translation tools > are being blamed. They happened to come into existance at the same time > as the problem but that is all. The underlying problem appears to be > that there is a generally recognized project for Arabic translation and > Fedora doesn't currently reflect that - or other similar situations where > there is a clear project. You are right on that as well. > Is the real solution in the case of translations with an established > team, actively translating Fedora simply to point all new signups > for Arabic to the Arabeyes project ? Or are there groups of Arabic > translators who have problems with the basis of Arabeyes ? > I had my arugment over here, have problem with assigning the project to Arabeyes after we reach a point where we can talk. There are another group of ppl that if they did not choose to talk here I think Arabeyes deserve to get it assigned. Sarah said she will setup ar mailing list, and having herself the maintainer till the group agree and elect someone. I would say if there is no one else object here (at least come forward and announce objection), and with the last emails I had with Mr. Elzubeir as we reached a point where we can work things out, so if there is no other one choose to discuss publicly his objection, I think Arabeyes should be maintaing it. Thanks Sherif From sabdelg at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 21:48:35 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 17:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <20040626195312.GA12358@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote: > Another question would be, what can be done when there is another group of > translators objecting to the pre-existing one, which has been doing the > vast majority of the work? Mohammed, You know as well as I know that Linux is growing in Middle East and you just can not make all people unified or be in one side. As far as I know there are 2 people who shared objection with me. So if they did not talk publicly and object here I think you should get what you asked for. I personally feel OK after the emails we had and the point we reached, and have no problem to assign the arabic translation to Arabeyes. Thanks Sherif From sabdelg at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 21:55:16 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 17:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora Arabic translation In-Reply-To: <20040626213939.75758.qmail@web54110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Ossama Khayat wrote: > Salam all, > I'm a major contributor to the Arabeyes and Fedora translation projects. I've > been > happily working on these two - and other - projects without any issues. I know you are, and I had a littel chat with you before as I remmber : ) > I was surprised feeling the possibility of dropping the project translation > because of some people objecting on the group's work, and not accepting Youcef > to > be the maintainer of the translation project. He always had the great spirit of > the true supporter more than just a coordinator. Speaking about myself where I belong to no groups : ) I explained my concerns, and I was surprised with the reaction and the way of replying my emails where I had not start a fight : ) With the state we reached of understanding each other and clearing the points I have no objection on having the project assigned to Arabeyes. > It's really unclear why those people object/reject Arabeyes work and/or to > coordinate with it. We always had new comers and I never heard of someone who > was > rejected in anyway. For me I explained my concerns. Yet, for others I am not going to speak on their behave, so as I said before, if no one else object, I myself withdraw my objection, and have no problem contributing with Arabeyes on the translation effort on any other efforts. Hope this clear things. Was nice to hear from you Osama .. Thanks Sherif From sabdelg at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 23:19:54 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:23:26 +0300 From: Munzir Taha To: Documentation and Translation Cc: Fedora Translation Project List , Alan Cox , Sherif Abdelgawad , alkanhal at kacst.edu.sa Subject: Re: Fedora and Translation Teams On Yaum al-Sabt 08 Jumaada al-Awal 1425 10:04 am, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: First let me state it clear from the begining. I am a member of Arabeyes.org and proud of their work in general. I thank them a lot and believe they have done and continue doing a great job. However, I disagree with them sometimes in the way they deal with matters and hence recording my voice here. > It is up to them, if they did not speak it is their problem. > I am aware of at least 2 ppl objecting. Do not you think > you better discuss how things should be and allow more > somothely ppl to feel OK to join you rather than attacking? Belive or not I don't have any contact with Mr Sherif and don't think I am one of these 2 ppl but you can count me as the #3 who records some objections. I feel this thread comes exactly at the right time ;) > I also said I am not joing arabeyes team yet I standed to > my right to contribute if I choose to. Fedora is an Open > source project, it has the tools, the infrastructure > and CVS. I do not need to be part of arabeyes if I need Agree 100% that it should be a recommendation or at least ask the translation teams not to impose any restriction, whatsoever, on others translation. Read on... > to so anything, or I must do that if that what you are > refering to? Yes, this in my opinion is a major problem. > Again it is you who pushing things far > away and assume and over react. You exactly did the > same thing the last time I tried to approach you guys. Some days ago a very relevant discussion appeared here. I found very strange attitude towards our team work details. Examples: http://lists.arabeyes.org/archives/doc/2004/June/msg00192.html It's mentioned that: "I for one, again personally, don't like the setup that is being discussed (not due to any personnel involvement), but I simply don't think a reputable leading institute should engage in open source in this manner...Its now in the open that these people will be paid workers (and that is good for all to know to avoid any dancing). " I believe translation teams should be flexible on how other teams want to work. I shouldn't be forced to reveal whether I am paid or not though nothing bad about it at all. Though this is his personal opinion but as a core member it affects a lot. Let's see... On http://lists.arabeyes.org/archives/doc/2004/June/msg00184.html It's also mentioned that: "I think you need to state outright who these people are, what arrangements have been made by whom and why, etc. The key is FULL transparency on all issues - the more everyone knows, the more everyone is comfortable. That is the open source way and as noted, the main aspect of our existence is "fostering a community"" I believe that if someone is only interested in translation not fostering your community, he should have the right to do it. To block/restrict others' translation becaue it doesn't help fostering your community is a type of .... Community could be built on love and peace not rules/restrictions. On http://lists.arabeyes.org/archives/doc/2004/June/msg00190.html It's mentions that: "The natural thing is to do it with the existing translation team -- this is how it works with all projects we are involved with. In this case, it happens to be Arabeyes. If someone wants to say, you know what, KDE's translation is crap, we will re-do the whole thing, there's nothing that can stop them. However, only Arabeyes' translations will be part of the official KDE release. I am only mentining KDE as an example, this would apply to all projects.... Arabeyes doesn't have a published mechanism of how to accept contributions from external institutes. We will hopefully come up with a scheme by the end of today's core meeting" This shouldn't be the case at all. I should be able to contribute to any project I like if there are some restrictions applied to my contribution by whatever translation team. Again if arabeyes or any other translation team believes that only their translation would reach the specified project this would lead to serious problems regarding others who have problems with the basis of Arabeyes, and yes, Alan, sure there exist parties/persons with such issues. Let's see now what's on the meeting. On http://lists.arabeyes.org/archives/doc/2004/June/msg00210.html Alzubeir mentions that: "Although, after a long debate in core, there was a deadlock (2 - 2) of whether we should make this mandatory." By mandatory he meant to say forcing other teams to register individually with each one have a separate account and not allowing them to contribute as a team with one account if they are willing to do it so for their own reasons. I believe this right should not be in teams hands. Finally, I hope arabeyes would deal as expected with these message professionally and not count me as a wickid person. -- Munzir Taha PGP Key available gpg --recv-keys --keyserver www.mandrakesecure.net F0671821 Telecommunications and Electronics Engineer Linux Registered User #279362 at http://counter.li.org Mandrake Club member Maintainer of the Open Arabic Bugs Project at http://wiki.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs CIW Designer, ICDL, MOUS New Horizons CLC Riyadh, SA From sabdelg at redhat.com Sat Jun 26 23:20:23 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 02:07:22 +0300 From: Munzir Taha To: Documentation and Translation , Fedora Translation Project List , Sherif Abdelgawad Cc: alkanhal at kacst.edu.sa Subject: Re: Fedora and Translation Teams Sirs, we have a team that is willing to translate Fedora remaing file which rather big. I just want to ask about the procedure and whehter you will release for me -- Munzir Taha PGP Key available gpg --recv-keys --keyserver www.mandrakesecure.net F0671821 Telecommunications and Electronics Engineer Linux Registered User #279362 at http://counter.li.org Mandrake Club member Maintainer of the Open Arabic Bugs Project at http://wiki.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs CIW Designer, ICDL, MOUS New Horizons CLC Riyadh, SA From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Sat Jun 26 20:02:57 2004 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:02:57 -0400 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <20040626195312.GA12358@arabeyes.org> References: <20040625195600.GC30176@arabeyes.org> <20040626055427.GA3995@arabeyes.org> <20040626140908.GA30617@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <20040626195312.GA12358@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: Mohammad, Will all my respect for you and the Arabeyes project, but this thread is getting more and more frustrating. First Yousef starts bombarding the list about what he has been misunderstanding for a very long time, and then you show up and keep doing the same thing. I think it's important to understand that you are contributing to the Fedora project, and you *have to* play with their rules. It's not important to most of the people here that what is Arabeyes or how does it manage its tasks. I'm writing this, because I think the responses have been unfair to Red Hat here. The little change they as the sponsors of the site did was that now people can lock the file they are translating, and any body can see that it only adds mutual exclusion to the system, which is much welcome, with almost no drawback; and you go on and elaborate on how this change breaks team work, consistency, management, Iraq war, Palestinian war, US/Iran relationship, blah blah blah... I don't like this attitude :(. behdad (who do not speak Arabic;) On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote: > On Sat, Jun 26, 2004 at 10:09:08AM -0400, Alan Cox wrote: > > > [..] > > > > - Language teams have a habit of appearing *after* someone has > > done the first 99% of the translations > > That may be the case -- but it hasn't been in our experience. When we > first took over the Fedora translation, we had a total of 5 translated > strings out of 10664 [1]. Today, we stand at 89% [2], with the disputed > dist.po being the only file that is not at 100%. I am not sure what has > been sync'ed back to Fedora's CVS so far, but we have obviously > suspended translations until we figure out where we stand. > > > The second problem here is I suspect a cultural difference - while the > > Arabic translators may be used to trading essays with references a lot > > of Westerners tend not to bother to read long things but like concise short > > arguments. > > I usually write short to-the-point posts, but I felt it was necessary > to give a background to those who are not familiar with Arabeyes' work, > in order to be able to appreciate the magnitude of the issue (to us). > > > Having read those long posts I do not see why the new translation tools > > are being blamed. They happened to come into existance at the same time > > as the problem but that is all. The underlying problem appears to be > > that there is a generally recognized project for Arabic translation and > > Fedora doesn't currently reflect that - or other similar situations where > > there is a clear project. > > Right on target. The system was misunderstood (apparently by more than > just us). > > > > > [..] > > > > Is the real solution in the case of translations with an established > > team, actively translating Fedora simply to point all new signups > > for Arabic to the Arabeyes project ? Or are there groups of Arabic > > translators who have problems with the basis of Arabeyes ? > > > > Another question would be, what can be done when there is another group of > translators objecting to the pre-existing one, which has been doing the > vast majority of the work? > > > References: > [1] http://www.arabeyes.org/~elzubeir/fedora_begin_status.html > [2] http://www.arabeyes.org/misc/fedora_status_bar.html > > Regards, > --behdad behdad.org From rahal at arabeyes.org Sun Jun 27 03:26:02 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 05:26:02 +0200 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: References: <20040625195600.GC30176@arabeyes.org> <20040626195312.GA12358@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <200406270526.08098.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Behdad, On Saturday 26 June 2004 22:02, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: > Mohammad, > > Will all my respect for you and the Arabeyes project, but this > thread is getting more and more frustrating. First Yousef starts > bombarding the list about what he has been misunderstanding for a > very long time, and then you show up and keep doing the same > thing. No comment... > I think it's important to understand that you are contributing to > the Fedora project, and you *have to* play with their rules. > It's not important to most of the people here that what is > Arabeyes or how does it manage its tasks. Behdad, are you ignoring all other posts from other translators from various languages, or ??? > I'm writing this, because I think the responses have been unfair > to Red Hat here. The little change they as the sponsors of the > site did was that now people can lock the file they are > translating, and any body can see that it only adds mutual > exclusion to the system, which is much welcome, with almost no > drawback; and you go on and elaborate on how this change breaks > team work, consistency, management, Iraq war, Palestinian war, > US/Iran relationship, blah blah blah... It's not only the [Take]/[Release] mechanism that is being questioned. If this mechanism is used in an organized way, then OK. But, it's the policy of Fedora vis a vis new comers when there are already teams in place that's not clear. I believe that new comers should be asked to join the current teams. If they don't want to, they should object publicly and give valid reasons. If they say the maintainer in place is not good, they should also object publicly and give valid reasons ('usually' people are put in jail after a trial in which accusators and witnesses are _not anonymous_, and for 'valid' reasons). BTW, I am not aware of any case where a team rejected a new translator from joining. On the contrary, translation teams are usually in dire need for help, and that's due essentially to the fact that translation is intrinsicly difficult (and partly 'boring'). So, that is the main problem. And it's not specific to Arabic. This issue rouse after the answers to many posts after the announcement of the new system. There have been disclaimers, right. Then, it would be good to know what is/will be the _official_ policy of Fedora for this issue ??? Also, who does take such decisions ? When ? Who makes the choice for languages maintainership ? > I don't like this attitude :(. Well. We are concerned about the framework in which we'll translate if we are to continue to translate. There have been/is a big problem for the Arabic maintainership, OK. But as long as the policy keeps to be as unclear as it is now, as long as the new framework is being implemented without taking considertion of what other Translation Projects successfully did, I have a feeling this will happen again with other languages in the future and will keep alienating people who have been translating for a long time. What we are asking for are clear answers to those important questions. And if possible, in an 'official' way (rather than an answer with a disclaimer and with 'IMOs'). Such answers will definitely close the debate rather then seeing this thread degenerating more and more. Enough precious time (for all the parties) has been lost. > behdad (who do not speak Arabic;) Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3j5OHDRR6Cd0eSYRAg43AJ4peKMYhBpuTO8SFGv2b/1FbHOB4ACeOS8W qXVj7QjKLxcyO/VONwc3tIw= =7GQb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Sun Jun 27 03:35:24 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 05:35:24 +0200 Subject: Arabic Maintainership In-Reply-To: <1088250484.2251.67.camel@cpe-144-136-136-233.qld.bigpond.net.au> References: <20040626105202.GA6570@arabeyes.org> <1088250484.2251.67.camel@cpe-144-136-136-233.qld.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <200406270535.26026.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Sarah, On Saturday 26 June 2004 13:48, Sarah Wang wrote: > Hi all, > > I have requested a new mailing list fedora-trans-ar to be set up for > everyone who is involved in Arabic translation for Fedora project. It > will be announced in this list as soon as it's available. Actually, there is a mailing list where we are already discussing Arabic specific issues (doc at arabeyes dot org), available publicly (with archives and all). That's why I never asked for a specific fedora list to be created, though there are more than 5 people involved. > Fedora-trans-list is used to discuss general Fedora translation issues. > For language specific issues please move to individual language list. If > you would like to have your own language mailing list, please contact me > offline. When I get 5 or more requests I will request to have a separate > list set up. The first person contact me will be the default list > maintainer. Though many recent posts concerned Arabic (well, Arabeyes...), I think the main issue is a _very_ general one and is not specific to any language. Please refer to my answer(s) to Bernd and Behdad for more details. I think answering clearly this issue, making it public on the website for future reference, will close the thread. > Regards, > Sarah Regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3kB9HDRR6Cd0eSYRAjzxAJ9lr8Wc/JzMBaBn2QX+8LfnJ/qL1ACg1UTm oyusLN8BRXa37T7rY9/PvF4= =6ax2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Sun Jun 27 04:26:15 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 06:26:15 +0200 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <20040626140908.GA30617@devserv.devel.redhat.com> References: <20040625195600.GC30176@arabeyes.org> <20040626055427.GA3995@arabeyes.org> <20040626140908.GA30617@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406270626.16079.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Mohammed has already answered this post, I'd like to stress on some points though. On Saturday 26 June 2004 16:09, Alan Cox wrote: [...] > However > > - Our translation admins don't have a perfect knowledge > of all translation teams Actually, they... should ;) Sorry to give examples from the 'outside' again, but as many other translators stressed on the fact that a comparaison has to be made, I'll do it :-) In one concrete example, Mandrake, there's a l10n coordinator, who seems to be aware of _all_ teams and their coordinators. When I post to their mailing list, I'm 'recognized' at once though, believe me, I posted far less on Mandrake's lists than on Fedora's. When a new comer posts to the list, he/she is immediately asked to join a team if any (or the team coordinator usually answers directly) and I don't have any memory where things went bad (people refusing or something like that). I have never had to say I am the coordinator of Arabic translation, to say we started translation on X date, we translated Y strings and we committed Z times... Part of the exchanges on the recent thread were due to translation admins not knowing some facts. [...] > - Language teams have a habit of appearing *after* someone has > done the first 99% of the translations At least for Fedora it's not the case. I can again give the example of Mandrake, being translated by Arabeyes (I am coordinating the translation...). Actually we 'appeared' after a good deal of translation was made, by people who wasn't organized in a team. The work has been stalled for some time and thus we asked for maintainership. We could have taken all the credit since the translation page of Mandrake makes no mention of any previous translators (exept that Arabeyes is the coordinator), no ?: http://www1.mandrakelinux.com/l10n/ar.php3 However, we were very keen to give credit to the previous translators: http://www.arabeyes.org/project.php?proj=Mandrake (see 'Notes'). And their names are in the PO headers too. About the credits: it's not only important to give people credit for their 'donations' (the donations here are 'hours of participation and dedication'), but also you have a reference to point to in case of an issue. When and end-user finds a 'bug' (vocabulary, grammar, or... worse !) in translation, you can always refer them to the people who did it. When there's a (known) team, it's even better. Rather than being obliged to say: 'Ooops, actually, we have no idea who did what...'. [...] > The second problem here is I suspect a cultural difference - while the > Arabic translators may be used to trading essays with references a lot > of Westerners tend not to bother to read long things but like concise short > arguments. As far as I can say, I try to email 'short' posts with clear questions ;-) However, my/our questions (until now) are simply being ignored by the translation admins. Again, answering them clearly would save to all of us 'hours' of precious time. [...] Best regards, - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3kxnHDRR6Cd0eSYRAoeDAKDzZSMKF2C9fbxi+NQ7OpiC8iSPLACfepOr fWKwU695WLaIN08ZB0SxJiY= =WkXr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sabdelg at redhat.com Sun Jun 27 05:23:18 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <200406270207.22927.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jun 2004, Munzir Taha wrote: > Sirs, > we have a team that is willing to translate Fedora remaing file which rather > big. I just want to ask about the procedure and whehter you will release for > me > > Welcome Munzir to the list. I am glade I had the chance to chat with you on IRC, glade also that there is a deticated team from KCAST (King AbdulAziz City for Science and Technology) welling to contribute in Fedora. I belive this should be the second team after Arabeyes. I am aware of a small team also would like to join. As this is becoming more of how to organize work to a specific Arabic translation, I would ask again Sarah to get us separate list to sort out policies and start putting tasks without flooding this mailing list with arabic specific issues. Arabeyes had 89% done. Only one file still to be translated. I guess you mentioned you have team of 4 or 5 plus yourself, one of them is the the maintainer of the KCAST fonts used in fedora, so I guess it is good step to have you guys contributing. Youcef is the person now assigned the module which need to be translated. Youcef has mentioned that he will not contiou translating till all the issues/requests are solved. I guess if you are welling to work till this is done, you may request from Youcef to release the module for yourself. For now you will need to setup account to do, do you have one yet? Sarah, when can we have fedora-trans-ar ? Thanks Sherif From jam at siriusbb.com Sun Jun 27 11:21:17 2004 From: jam at siriusbb.com (Jamil Ahmed) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:21:17 +0600 Subject: username/password for web access... Message-ID: <023a01c45c38$de9e0b40$0a01a8c0@Jamil> Hello, What will be the user/pass for taking the available file from web? I have tried with my cvs user/pass.. but it doesn't work. What should be done? Username of my cvs account is, jamil Thanks, `Jamil From jam at siriusbb.com Sun Jun 27 11:46:35 2004 From: jam at siriusbb.com (Jamil Ahmed) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:46:35 +0600 Subject: Problem while Updating transtion Message-ID: <027d01c45c3c$67080af0$0a01a8c0@Jamil> hey, Pls see the error message below! Who is this file assighed to?? :-) How to update the translations? :-| Thanks, `Jamil [jamil at dev chkconfig]$ cvs commit -m "Updated on June 27, 2004" bn.po Testing bn.po... [chkconfig/bn.po] is not assigned to you. **** Access allowed: jamil is in ACL for chkconfig/po. cvs server: Pre-commit check failed cvs [server aborted]: correct above errors first! [jamil at dev chkconfig]$ From xamc at rumos.pt Sun Jun 27 12:43:39 2004 From: xamc at rumos.pt (Alexandre Costa) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:43:39 +0100 Subject: Documentation Message-ID: <006101c45c44$5fb44e00$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Can someone point me on some docs on the translations process ?? tnx. From xamc at rumos.pt Sun Jun 27 12:45:39 2004 From: xamc at rumos.pt (Alexandre Costa) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:45:39 +0100 Subject: Erase a account. Message-ID: <006c01c45c44$a6a550c0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Can someone tell me how can i erase my translator account ??? tnx From alan at redhat.com Sun Jun 27 12:50:49 2004 From: alan at redhat.com (Alan Cox) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 08:50:49 -0400 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <200406270626.16079.rahal@arabeyes.org> References: <20040625195600.GC30176@arabeyes.org> <20040626055427.GA3995@arabeyes.org> <20040626140908.GA30617@devserv.devel.redhat.com> <200406270626.16079.rahal@arabeyes.org> Message-ID: <20040627125049.GB25312@devserv.devel.redhat.com> On Sun, Jun 27, 2004 at 06:26:15AM +0200, Youcef Rabah Rahal wrote: > In one concrete example, Mandrake, there's a l10n coordinator, who seems to be > aware of _all_ teams and their coordinators. When I post to their mailing Thats impressive. > > - Language teams have a habit of appearing *after* someone has > > done the first 99% of the translations > > At least for Fedora it's not the case. I can again give the example of not the case for Arabic... > However, we were very keen to give credit to the previous translators: > http://www.arabeyes.org/project.php?proj=Mandrake (see 'Notes'). > And their names are in the PO headers too. Thats really good and important. > About the credits: it's not only important to give people credit for their > 'donations' (the donations here are 'hours of participation and dedication'), > but also you have a reference to point to in case of an issue. When and > end-user finds a 'bug' (vocabulary, grammar, or... worse !) in translation, > you can always refer them to the people who did it. When there's a (known) > team, it's even better. Rather than being obliged to say: 'Ooops, actually, > we have no idea who did what...'. Agreed entirely From sabdelg at redhat.com Sun Jun 27 21:48:11 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <20040627125049.GB25312@devserv.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: Fwd'ing Munzir email to the list, as he still not confirmed to be able to send here. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Munzir Taha" To: "Sherif Abdelgawad" Cc: "Documentation and Translation" ; "Fedora Translation Project List" ; Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 8:08 AM Subject: Re: Fedora and Translation Teams > On Yaum al-Ahad 09 Jumaada al-Awal 1425 08:23 am, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > > > Welcome Munzir to the list. I am glade I had the chance to > > chat with you on IRC, > > me too. > > > Arabeyes had 89% done. Only one file still to be translated. > > I guess you mentioned you have team of 4 or 5 plus yourself, > > one of them is the the maintainer of the KCAST fonts used > > in fedora, so I guess it is good step to have you guys > > contributing. > > I am sure we can do a good translation to this file. > > > Youcef is the person now assigned the module which need > > to be translated. Youcef has mentioned that he will not > > contiou translating till all the issues/requests are solved. > > I guess if you are welling to work till this is done, > > you may request from Youcef to release the module for yourself. > > Yes, I am willing to take this file and finish it. Yousef, will you please > release that file for us. Let us finish it and then we would discuss quality > assurance issues together. > > > For now you will need to setup account to do, do you have > > one yet? > > I filled the form but haven't received a confirmation yet. > > Also waiting for the fedora-trans-list confirmation. > > -- > Munzir Taha PGP Key available > gpg --recv-keys --keyserver www.mandrakesecure.net F0671821 > > Telecommunications and Electronics Engineer > Linux Registered User #279362 at http://counter.li.org > Mandrake Club member > Maintainer of the Open Arabic Bugs Project at > http://wiki.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs > CIW Designer, ICDL, MOUS > New Horizons CLC > Riyadh, SA > From munzirtaha at newhorizons.com.sa Sat Jun 26 22:23:26 2004 From: munzirtaha at newhorizons.com.sa (Munzir Taha) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 01:23:26 +0300 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406270050.20566.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> On Yaum al-Sabt 08 Jumaada al-Awal 1425 10:04 am, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: First let me state it clear from the begining. I am a member of Arabeyes.org and proud of their work in general. I thank them a lot and believe they have done and continue doing a great job. However, I disagree with them sometimes in the way they deal with matters and hence recording my voice here. > It is up to them, if they did not speak it is their problem. > I am aware of at least 2 ppl objecting. Do not you think > you better discuss how things should be and allow more > somothely ppl to feel OK to join you rather than attacking? Belive or not I don't have any contact with Mr Sherif and don't think I am one of these 2 ppl but you can count me as the #3 who records some objections. I feel this thread comes exactly at the right time ;) > I also said I am not joing arabeyes team yet I standed to > my right to contribute if I choose to. Fedora is an Open > source project, it has the tools, the infrastructure > and CVS. I do not need to be part of arabeyes if I need Agree 100% that it should be a recommendation or at least ask the translation teams not to impose any restriction, whatsoever, on others translation. Read on... > to so anything, or I must do that if that what you are > refering to? Yes, this in my opinion is a major problem. > Again it is you who pushing things far > away and assume and over react. You exactly did the > same thing the last time I tried to approach you guys. Some days ago a very relevant discussion appeared here. I found very strange attitude towards our team work details. Examples: http://lists.arabeyes.org/archives/doc/2004/June/msg00192.html It's mentioned that: "I for one, again personally, don't like the setup that is being discussed (not due to any personnel involvement), but I simply don't think a reputable leading institute should engage in open source in this manner...Its now in the open that these people will be paid workers (and that is good for all to know to avoid any dancing). " I believe translation teams should be flexible on how other teams want to work. I shouldn't be forced to reveal whether I am paid or not though nothing bad about it at all. Though this is his personal opinion but as a core member it affects a lot. Let's see... On http://lists.arabeyes.org/archives/doc/2004/June/msg00184.html It's also mentioned that: "I think you need to state outright who these people are, what arrangements have been made by whom and why, etc. The key is FULL transparency on all issues - the more everyone knows, the more everyone is comfortable. That is the open source way and as noted, the main aspect of our existence is "fostering a community"" I believe that if someone is only interested in translation not fostering your community, he should have the right to do it. To block/restrict others' translation becaue it doesn't help fostering your community is a type of .... Community could be built on love and peace not rules/restrictions. On http://lists.arabeyes.org/archives/doc/2004/June/msg00190.html It's mentions that: "The natural thing is to do it with the existing translation team -- this is how it works with all projects we are involved with. In this case, it happens to be Arabeyes. If someone wants to say, you know what, KDE's translation is crap, we will re-do the whole thing, there's nothing that can stop them. However, only Arabeyes' translations will be part of the official KDE release. I am only mentining KDE as an example, this would apply to all projects.... Arabeyes doesn't have a published mechanism of how to accept contributions from external institutes. We will hopefully come up with a scheme by the end of today's core meeting" This shouldn't be the case at all. I should be able to contribute to any project I like if there are some restrictions applied to my contribution by whatever translation team. Again if arabeyes or any other translation team believes that only their translation would reach the specified project this would lead to serious problems regarding others who have problems with the basis of Arabeyes, and yes, Alan, sure there exist parties/persons with such issues. Let's see now what's on the meeting. On http://lists.arabeyes.org/archives/doc/2004/June/msg00210.html Alzubeir mentions that: "Although, after a long debate in core, there was a deadlock (2 - 2) of whether we should make this mandatory." By mandatory he meant to say forcing other teams to register individually with each one have a separate account and not allowing them to contribute as a team with one account if they are willing to do it so for their own reasons. I believe this right should not be in teams hands. Finally, I hope arabeyes would deal as expected with these message professionally and not count me as a wickid person. -- Munzir Taha PGP Key available gpg --recv-keys --keyserver www.mandrakesecure.net F0671821 Telecommunications and Electronics Engineer Linux Registered User #279362 at http://counter.li.org Mandrake Club member Maintainer of the Open Arabic Bugs Project at http://wiki.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs CIW Designer, ICDL, MOUS New Horizons CLC Riyadh, SA From munzirtaha at newhorizons.com.sa Sat Jun 26 23:07:22 2004 From: munzirtaha at newhorizons.com.sa (Munzir Taha) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 02:07:22 +0300 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406270207.22927.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> Sirs, we have a team that is willing to translate Fedora remaing file which rather big. I just want to ask about the procedure and whehter you will release for me -- Munzir Taha PGP Key available gpg --recv-keys --keyserver www.mandrakesecure.net F0671821 Telecommunications and Electronics Engineer Linux Registered User #279362 at http://counter.li.org Mandrake Club member Maintainer of the Open Arabic Bugs Project at http://wiki.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs CIW Designer, ICDL, MOUS New Horizons CLC Riyadh, SA From jamil at bengalinux.org Sun Jun 27 11:11:34 2004 From: jamil at bengalinux.org (Jamil Ahmed) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 17:11:34 +0600 Subject: username/password for web access... Message-ID: <022e01c45c37$83062070$0a01a8c0@Jamil> Hello, What will be the user/pass for taking the available file from web? I have tried with my cvs user/pass.. but it doesn't work. What should be done? Username of my cvs account is, jamil Thanks, `Jamil From munzirtaha at newhorizons.com.sa Sun Jun 27 15:08:14 2004 From: munzirtaha at newhorizons.com.sa (Munzir Taha) Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2004 18:08:14 +0300 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406271808.14339.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> On Yaum al-Ahad 09 Jumaada al-Awal 1425 08:23 am, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > Welcome Munzir to the list. I am glade I had the chance to > chat with you on IRC, me too. > Arabeyes had 89% done. Only one file still to be translated. > I guess you mentioned you have team of 4 or 5 plus yourself, > one of them is the the maintainer of the KCAST fonts used > in fedora, so I guess it is good step to have you guys > contributing. I am sure we can do a good translation to this file. > Youcef is the person now assigned the module which need > to be translated. Youcef has mentioned that he will not > contiou translating till all the issues/requests are solved. > I guess if you are welling to work till this is done, > you may request from Youcef to release the module for yourself. Yes, I am willing to take this file and finish it. Yousef, will you please release that file for us. Let us finish it and then we would discuss quality assurance issues together. > For now you will need to setup account to do, do you have > one yet? I filled the form but haven't received a confirmation yet. Also waiting for the fedora-trans-list confirmation. -- Munzir Taha PGP Key available gpg --recv-keys --keyserver www.mandrakesecure.net F0671821 Telecommunications and Electronics Engineer Linux Registered User #279362 at http://counter.li.org Mandrake Club member Maintainer of the Open Arabic Bugs Project at http://wiki.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs CIW Designer, ICDL, MOUS New Horizons CLC Riyadh, SA From ylouze at redhat.com Mon Jun 28 01:48:20 2004 From: ylouze at redhat.com (Yelitza Louze) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:48:20 +1000 Subject: Erase a account. In-Reply-To: <006c01c45c44$a6a550c0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> References: <006c01c45c44$a6a550c0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Message-ID: <40DF78E4.2090406@redhat.com> Alexandre Costa wrote: >Can someone tell me how can i erase my translator account ??? > Alexandre if what you want is not to be in the mailing list just go to the link http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list and at the bottom of the page you can modify your user options, including unsubscribe. cheers, Yelitza > >tnx > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > From ylouze at redhat.com Mon Jun 28 01:51:15 2004 From: ylouze at redhat.com (Yelitza Louze) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:51:15 +1000 Subject: Documentation In-Reply-To: <006101c45c44$5fb44e00$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> References: <006101c45c44$5fb44e00$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Message-ID: <40DF7993.6090905@redhat.com> Alexandre Costa wrote: >Can someone point me on some docs on the translations process ?? > >tnx. > > If you are talking about the files for translation, the best thing to do is to contact your language coordinator and take it from there. Just send an email to your language mailing list. cheers Yelitza > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > From bgroh at redhat.com Mon Jun 28 06:17:06 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:17:06 +1000 Subject: If there were translation teams... In-Reply-To: <1088236123.1192.257.camel@phobos> References: <1088227433.1190.169.camel@phobos> <40DD14A7.6060008@redhat.com> <1088236123.1192.257.camel@phobos> Message-ID: <40DFB7E2.1020006@redhat.com> Josep Puigdemont schrieb: >On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 08:16, Bernd Groh wrote: > > >>Josep, >> >> >> >>>If there were translation teams, and I was the coordinator of my team... >>> >>> >>> >>Isn't that the case? Do you want to be the maintainer of all modules for >>catalan now or not? I haven't heard any objections, so it's yours for >>the taking. :) >> >> > >I wanted to ask the other Catalan translators who are not subscribed >here for comments, if they had any objections, etc, in our own mailing >list (fedora at softcatala dot org). Although I haven't done that yet, I >did apply as a maintainer for dist module (I was too lazy to go over all >modules and apply for each one of them). > Hmmm, I didn't get any request. :( I'll look into it. >[cut] > > >>>All that... of course, if there were translation teams... >>> >>> >>> >>Well, there are, we know that, don't we? :) >> >> >> > >YES, there are! It is just that newcomers will not notice if we don't >tell them (ok, they will notice there's a maintainer, though, but that's >not enough). > Agreed. >>>Briefly, combining teams with the new method have a lot of potential >>>that we should explote. >>> >>>Again, this is only my view, and there might be flaws, if there are I >>>hope you can spot them and tell me :) >>> >>> >>> >>No, I didn't spot any flaws, a lot of your suggestions have already been >>put in place with the new system. And that exactly is it what puzzles >>me. Given you've just suggested a lot of things that we've just put in >>place with the new status pages, why again is it that it is criticized >>so much? Why even do people say it nullifies existing translation teams? >> >> > >Because they are not mentioned at all, nor they seem to be encouraged, > Well, they weren't mentioned before, and as I read it, was most of the critique addressed particularly against the new status pages. Or was the critique not addressed at the new status pages in particular, but "now" or "new status pages" actually referred to "then" and "since the beginning"? If that's the case, why not say so explicitly, why blame the newest change? At least then I would have understood what you are on about and could have simply agreed with you straight away. >and because if I am a new translator I wouldn't know who to contact to >(GNOME tells me very clearly to check for my team's coordinator). I >don't think that what Christian meant was that teams can not be >implemented, I think he meant that teams are not needed at all, thus >will hardly be created, because you have to consider that translation >teams have lots of translators with the best intentions that get tired >too quickly (at least in my short experience). > Can you understand though, that it is hard for me to tell what is meant if the new status pages are blamed in particular? I believe, that the new status pages were simply a trigger, however, I am still not entirely sure. >>I don't have to get it, or do I? ;) >> >> >> > >Note, I don't want to claim this as "my suggestions". This is just what >I could come up with by trying to be constructive, and mixing the "new" >method with the traditional [and sound] teams method. It seems to be >what you had in mind from the beginning, but it wasn't clear to some of >us. But don't forget that all my posts beg for the presence of teams, I >want them badly because I think they are the best way to guarantee >quality and consistency, plus I add that the new system has potential, >and can be useful to the teams, but I don't think it will be good >without them. > Granted. >>>Bernd: these might be the scriptures you were asking for :) >>> >>> >>> >>Nah, that's pretty much the path I am going, as said, and a lot has been >> >> > >If the path you're going is the path we are going, maybe we should also >know what the future plans are, and the direction we're taking. > Of course, we want to get team pages up. And maybe that should be the next step, together with creating mailing lists for the individual languages. We all want that, Fedora wants that. Otherwise, I have to continue with how *I*'d do things, and that is *not* to be taken as any plans Fedora may have, it's what would happen if I had a say. I am not going to deny someone cvs access unless I have a person that I can make accountable for that decision. But, if there's a well organised team, that has a dedicated coordinator, then, on request of that coordinator, given it has the full support of the group, I'd be willing to require authorization, and not simply grant cvs access for that particular language. If nobody from within that language group is willing to take responsibility, and be accountable, then I am not going to make such call. Though I'd like to encourage groups, I am not going to mandate them. Hopefully groups will form, if they don't, well, so be it. I rather have people independently working on files, than not at all. I do not want to have a system that doesn't work if there's no group, or no coordinator to be found. I want to have a coordinator, or maintainers, that really want to be there, and aren't just there because somebody needs to do that job. And if a language group decides they function better without having a designated coordinator, since none is to be found, I would like to support that too. Nobody has to take on that responsibility if s/he doesn't really want to. Nobody has to be a maintainer if they only want to contribute translations. Only if you want this responsibility and you make yourself accountable to the user-community using that language-version of Fedora, only then you should take on maintaining a module, or on a larger scale, become the coordinator for an entire language. And that's basically it. However, that's only how I see things, of course, opinions differ, as we all know. :) >>implemented with the new upgrade. I simply won't restrict anyone cvs >>access until we're fully organized, that's all. :) >> >> >> > >Ok, why not speed it up a bit, then? How can we help? > >Seems to me that the crowds want teams. Then make a poll and check if >that is so, and if it is, let's try to organize teams... Make a call for >team building, or just look who's been committing for each language to >find out who could be a maintainer (ask them to be maintainers, as you >wanted us to ask translators to become part of our teams, I know you >already did), or who could be a member of a team... Look the headers of >the po files for email addresses of translators, see if they are >subscribed here, maybe you could invite them to (maybe thank them for >their work too)... > No poll required, I believe team pages are necessary. How you can help? Well, maybe you can look at who's been commiting for each language and email me the list? :) Or, at least, and that's what everyone can help with, see who's been committing for your language, ask them to join this mailing list and speak up, and not just if things aren't the way they want them to be. And, thank you! >We should all post what we think the next step should be... it costs >nothing to do, and it will help a lot. > Agreed. >I think that whatever the methodology/system for translations is going >to be, it should be discussed in this list. Like I think this new method >should have been discussed here too before being implemented. I mean, it >is us (translators should be subscribed here) to whom it affect, and yet >we didn't know about it until it appeared (at least I didn't). > Sounds reasonable. The participants of the individual mailing list will then have to post every system related issue that comes up also to this list though, since I couldn't do it, even if I wanted too. :) Maybe you can ask them to post all system related requests to this list? Thank you! >So... TRANSLATORS: if you want your views to be listened, speak up. >Nothing that you would like to be implemented will be unless we ask it >for. And for those that can implement things, thanks for doing so! And >please, keep us up to date about the next move, maybe we can improve it, >maybe we can even help with it! > I'll keep you up to date. Regards, Bernd >Best regards, > >/Josep > > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From m.eldesoky at tedata.net Mon Jun 28 06:30:01 2004 From: m.eldesoky at tedata.net (Mohamed Eldesoky) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 09:30:01 +0300 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <200406271808.14339.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> References: <200406271808.14339.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> Message-ID: <200406280930.09784.m.eldesoky@tedata.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Disclaimer: Whatever stated here is my own view and openion, has nothing to do with TE Data or Linux-Egypt. I have just followed the discussions on this mailing list, and wondered of the heat of the discussion, which made me hesitate whether I should contribute or not. Just I have a small thing to say, Arabs are part of the Open Source movement, wouldn't it be better to give the chance to every Arabian Open Source contributor to work with the community at large directly, and be part of it ?? I believe it will give them more experience, also it will help correct some of the misunderstanding from others towards Arabs, well, won't talk politics here, never. Just my two cents. Regards Mohamed Eldesoky On Sunday 27 June 2004 6:08 pm, Munzir Taha wrote: > On Yaum al-Ahad 09 Jumaada al-Awal 1425 08:23 am, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > > Welcome Munzir to the list. I am glade I had the chance to > > chat with you on IRC, > > me too. > > > Arabeyes had 89% done. Only one file still to be translated. > > I guess you mentioned you have team of 4 or 5 plus yourself, > > one of them is the the maintainer of the KCAST fonts used > > in fedora, so I guess it is good step to have you guys > > contributing. > > I am sure we can do a good translation to this file. > > > Youcef is the person now assigned the module which need > > to be translated. Youcef has mentioned that he will not > > contiou translating till all the issues/requests are solved. > > I guess if you are welling to work till this is done, > > you may request from Youcef to release the module for yourself. > > Yes, I am willing to take this file and finish it. Yousef, will you please > release that file for us. Let us finish it and then we would discuss > quality assurance issues together. > > > For now you will need to setup account to do, do you have > > one yet? > > I filled the form but haven't received a confirmation yet. > > Also waiting for the fedora-trans-list confirmation. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA37rr2FHsOWMJBKMRAs1/AJ9lbbOlL0vXxjWKUH31W9/M8MwyagCgvck0 9Ry6fv0FLwGJzrUIR0bEojM= =mTow -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bgroh at redhat.com Mon Jun 28 07:03:01 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:03:01 +1000 Subject: username/password for web access... In-Reply-To: <022e01c45c37$83062070$0a01a8c0@Jamil> References: <022e01c45c37$83062070$0a01a8c0@Jamil> Message-ID: <40DFC2A5.9020609@redhat.com> Jamil, you should receive an email shortly, if you don't, please let me know. Bernd Jamil Ahmed schrieb: >Hello, > What will be the user/pass for taking the available file from web? >I have tried with my cvs user/pass.. but it doesn't work. > What should be done? >Username of my cvs account is, jamil > >Thanks, >`Jamil > > > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From sabdelg at redhat.com Mon Jun 28 07:40:37 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 03:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arabic Translation Team Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I just want to recap and clear all the heat in the previous emails, hoping to reach a point where everyone cool down and reach a working environment. Current Status: - - Most of the Arabic translation almost done. - - Arabeyes team to take credit for the translaiton. - - New team from KCAST want to join. - - Individuals from other Arabic LUGs want to join - - Fedora Team still working on setting up team pages, current system allow maintainers for modules, and or large scale maintainer for certain lang. I belive the system should fit fine, yet it is open for suggesstion and request enhancement as needed. I personally agree with what Alan mentioned that most of the translation teams usually appear when all the work are done. I can see valid request from Arabeyes to have maintainership on the arabic translation. Also I can see the concerns which the other groups have against arabeyes, and the fear of control and forcing policies from Arabeyes, requesting to be part of arabeyes or you can not contribute. Some ppl do not want to be part of Arabeyes yet they would like to contribute. I would like to recommend something to solve all this. No one can deny the effort done by Arabeyes and it would be unfair not to grant them the maintainer. Yet, I hope that feedback from others and suggestion would be faced by difficult attitude from Arabeyes. This is one of the main issue I saw personally. Quoting from Mohamed Elzubeir: > - You have certain issues with the way Arabeyes handles > things (so far Arabeyes officially has not done anything, > so I'm not sure what you are referring to -- but if > you do have such issues, we would be happy > to hear constructive criticism on the 'general' list). That would not be only me. Munzir & Mohammed Desoky requested more open and flexible attitude from Arabeyes. Not only referring to what is currently Arabeyes doing on Fedora, but overall as a policy. For example the attitude when discussing things, starting aggressively defending, sarcasm tone, ...etc. Not only what happened here while discussing, but also from the link Munzir pasted, it seems the default way to handle issues. I think it worth listening and considering :) After all we all are interested in Arabic being properly supported and translated. It is good to have larger group regardless if they want to work under Arabeyes or outside. I hope you agree with me on this. So I would like to ask the other arabic groups to team up with arabeyes, and work up something which satisfy everyone, and get the work done. I belive we will need to review & QA the work done already plus finishing up the last big file which is not yet done. Munzir, Mohamed Deskoy, Arabeyes & Other indiveduals any suggestion on how to move from this point forward? Just keep in mind two things Arabeyes is well established group who I belive should maintain. Yet, a littel bit of change of how things handled and allow more freedome to others groups need to be clear and granted from Arabeyes. Afterall we all working on one target. Any comments? Thanks Sherif -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA38t4GEwRyeYJw+YRAnWLAJ9/6pkb1yll4poS+1yqwZwZUXO+zQCgtxtA QWalBMuhvdjDPRtyqk2ia68= =24sQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rahal at arabeyes.org Mon Jun 28 08:38:04 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:38:04 +0200 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <200406271808.14339.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> References: <200406271808.14339.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> Message-ID: <200406281038.05963.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 27 June 2004 17:08, Munzir Taha wrote: [...] > Yousef, will you please > release that file for us. [...] As you can't commit yet to Fedora CVS, I think releasing it will not resolve the issue and will make you loose more precious time and money. You can: 1- Translate it and email it to me and I'll commit it. or 2- Work directly on Arabeyes CVS (it's sync'ed) (since you and every other every member of the new KACST team have access to Arabeyes CVS anyway). - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA39jsHDRR6Cd0eSYRAhrHAKCEYzPu4heiFrNnsKoCcBYfnTCHpACglg9v 5wC7Atg5xcCeHgM6tbR80aE= =0pl0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sarahs at redhat.com Mon Jun 28 08:43:16 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:43:16 +1000 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <200406271808.14339.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> References: <200406271808.14339.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> Message-ID: <1088412196.2070.71.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> ?2004?06?28??01:08?Munzir Taha??? > > I filled the form but haven't received a confirmation yet. Your account has been approved and you should have received the confirmation email with your cvs access and login information. Please let me know if you haven't received confirmation email. > > Also waiting for the fedora-trans-list confirmation. You are on the list now, aren't you? :) Sarah From xamc at rumos.pt Mon Jun 28 15:09:47 2004 From: xamc at rumos.pt (Alexandre Costa) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:09:47 +0100 Subject: Erase a account. References: <006c01c45c44$a6a550c0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> <40DF78E4.2090406@redhat.com> Message-ID: <001801c45d21$f466d3a0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Hi Yelitza. Tnx, but i was talking about the translator account (used in the cvs). Anyone can point me in being able to erase it ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yelitza Louze" To: "Fedora Translation Project List" Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 2:48 AM Subject: Re: Erase a account. : Alexandre Costa wrote: : : >Can someone tell me how can i erase my translator account ??? : > : Alexandre if what you want is not to be in the mailing list just go to : the link : http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list : and at the bottom of the page you can modify your user options, : including unsubscribe. : cheers, : Yelitza : : > : >tnx : > : > : >-- : >Fedora-trans-list mailing list : >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com : >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list : > : > : : : : -- : Fedora-trans-list mailing list : Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com : http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From sabdelg at redhat.com Mon Jun 28 16:45:14 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 12:45:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arabeyes and Fedora In-Reply-To: <1088365995.4559.2.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Jun 2004, Arafat Medini wrote: > Salam, > > Something like a lock down would be good. Get the RedHat ppl to know why > we and ONLY we want/can translate fedora and point everyone who wants to > get a cvs account to us. why ONLY if you I may ask? > Giving up fedora is totally wrong. The linux wave is coming. And We have > to be on the boat. It helps Linux, it helps us and it helps the Arabs. So it is a matter being on the boat? > IF and only IF the Fedora ppl would say"well no we are not interested in > cooperating with you" then you still can point to Alan Coxs reply, if > this does not help. Then kick them out. Kick who? Is it always the attitude has to be this way in discussing things, even after everyone did cool down ? This is why I did object at the first time. Attitude problem ! Thanks Sherif From behdad at cs.toronto.edu Mon Jun 28 17:20:58 2004 From: behdad at cs.toronto.edu (Behdad Esfahbod) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:20:58 -0400 Subject: Arabeyes and Fedora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > > > On Sun, 27 Jun 2004, Arafat Medini wrote: > > > Salam, > > > > Something like a lock down would be good. Get the RedHat ppl to know why > > we and ONLY we want/can translate fedora and point everyone who wants to > > get a cvs account to us. What the **** is happening here? What does this sentence mean? Who are Arabeyes that think ONLY they want and can translate Fedora??? The experience of past couple of months has shown that Arabeyes is taking wrong steps after each other again and again. Would Arabeyes stop this thread please? At least on this list?? New people from Arabeyes show up and respond every couple of days! Please everybody either exclude fedora-trans-list from your responses, or use fedora-ar-list (or whatever) instead. behdad > why ONLY if you I may ask? > > > Giving up fedora is totally wrong. The linux wave is coming. And We have > > to be on the boat. It helps Linux, it helps us and it helps the Arabs. > > So it is a matter being on the boat? > > > IF and only IF the Fedora ppl would say"well no we are not interested in > > cooperating with you" then you still can point to Alan Coxs reply, if > > this does not help. Then kick them out. > > Kick who? > > Is it always the attitude has to be this way in discussing things, > even after everyone did cool down ? This is why I did object at > the first time. Attitude problem ! > > Thanks > > Sherif --behdad behdad.org From malkarouri at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 28 18:34:56 2004 From: malkarouri at yahoo.co.uk (Muhammad Alkarouri) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:34:56 +0100 Subject: Arabic Translation Team In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088447696.8342.50.camel@dyn054077.shef.ac.uk> As is becoming the trend in this thread, I have to start with the disclaimers, though I think it is well established that anybody speaks for himself/herself in this list. I am a member of Arabeyes but I am not representing their view here. Nor am I representing Munzir who speaks for himself now, though he is a close friend of mine. A double disclaimer for the fact that I am a RHCE, for being one does not make me Red Hat affiliated, and being Red Hat affiliated would not have made be a Red Hat speaker here, as everybody is aware. On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 08:40, Sherif Abdelgawad wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > > I just want to recap and clear all the heat in > the previous emails, hoping to reach a point > where everyone cool down and reach a working > environment. I think everybody now wants to cool down. So thanks for that. By the way, Sherif, as you are subscribing to the doc mailing list as arabeyes, it is not fair to receive e-mails there and reply to them here, as they describe their owner's opinion, not that of arabeyes, and they shouldn't be as such. That being said, I believe it is an unintended error from you, as you replied to all people rather than to the doc list. > > Current Status: > > - - Most of the Arabic translation almost done. > - - Arabeyes team to take credit for the translaiton. > - - New team from KCAST want to join. > - - Individuals from other Arabic LUGs want to join > - - Fedora Team still working on setting up team pages, > current system allow maintainers for modules, and > or large scale maintainer for certain lang. I belive > the system should fit fine, yet it is open > for suggesstion and request enhancement as needed. > I would replace point 2 by 'Arabeyes team to take maintainership/coordination for the translation', for I believe it is more important for them to have maintainership to maintain a certain quality of translation than to get credits, which naturally belongs to them if they do the translation as to any other translators. Otherwise, I find your status summary fairly good. [...] > I would like to recommend something to solve > all this. No one can deny the effort done by > Arabeyes and it would be unfair not to grant > them the maintainer. Yet, I hope that feedback > from others and suggestion would be faced > by difficult attitude from Arabeyes. This > is one of the main issue I saw personally. I hope you will be able to give some concrete recommendation. This also goes to Munzir and Mohammed Eldesoky. I would prefer that you carry on this discussion in the doc list in arabeyes (the things related to arabic) while still giving general suggestions to fedora-trans-list if they are beneficial to the fedora translation project, for example a general view for teamwork in fedora. This does not mean your being members in Arabeyes, and I believe it will help arabeyes as well as you to keep a healthy cooperation. After all .. > After all we all are interested in Arabic being properly > supported and translated. It is good to have larger > group regardless if they want to work under Arabeyes > or outside. I hope you agree with me on this. The thing is that we want to push this work on. So I expect suggestions, given everything said here, to be on the line: - Arabeyes to be maintainer - I am not sure if you are aware that Arabeyes usually works on its own cvs then merges with the main cvs frequently, to double check. Their maintainer (in this case Youcef) is the only one who does the merging. That means, effectively, that they will take all the modules and distribute them among their available team. In your suggestions, please consider: if you need accounts on Arabeyes cvs, or if we are to somehow partition cvs access. > Just keep in mind two things Arabeyes is well established > group who I belive should maintain. Yet, a littel > bit of change of how things handled and allow > more freedome to others groups need to be clear > and granted from Arabeyes. Afterall we all working > on one target. > > Any comments? > > Thanks > > Sherif > On an off topic note, Sherif, please e-mail us when resala linux is ready. I am sure it will be interesting to a lot of us there. Regards, Muhammad Alkarouri ======== "Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it." From malkarouri at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 28 18:39:28 2004 From: malkarouri at yahoo.co.uk (Muhammad Alkarouri) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 19:39:28 +0100 Subject: Arabeyes and Fedora In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088447968.8342.55.camel@dyn054077.shef.ac.uk> On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 18:20, Behdad Esfahbod wrote: [...] > Would Arabeyes stop this thread please? At least on this list?? > New people from Arabeyes show up and respond every couple of > days! Please everybody either exclude fedora-trans-list from > your responses, or use fedora-ar-list (or whatever) instead. > > behdad Absolutely correct. And now I pop here:) This message was not addressed here if you noticed, it is forwarded. I my previous e-mail, I suggested that we get everything there at doc, or anywhere else. I hope that everybody will accept that. Muhammad Alkarouri From sabdelg at redhat.com Mon Jun 28 18:44:32 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 14:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Arabic Translation Team In-Reply-To: <1088447696.8342.50.camel@dyn054077.shef.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Muhammad Alkarouri wrote: > I think everybody now wants to cool down. So thanks for that. > By the way, Sherif, as you are subscribing to the doc mailing list as > arabeyes, it is not fair to receive e-mails there and reply to them > here, as they describe their owner's opinion, not that of arabeyes, and > they shouldn't be as such. This was the first msg I got from arabeyes. Did not notice it was arabeyes mailing list only. My mistake then. > That being said, I believe it is an unintended error from you, as you > replied to all people rather than to the doc list. Yes, sorry for that. Thanks Sherif From sarahs at redhat.com Mon Jun 28 22:33:03 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:33:03 +1000 Subject: Erase a account. In-Reply-To: <001801c45d21$f466d3a0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> References: <006c01c45c44$a6a550c0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> <40DF78E4.2090406@redhat.com> <001801c45d21$f466d3a0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Message-ID: <1088461982.3488.0.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> What's your login name? Sarah On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 01:09, Alexandre Costa wrote: > Hi Yelitza. > > Tnx, but i was talking about the translator account (used in the cvs). > > Anyone can point me in being able to erase it ? From sarahs at redhat.com Mon Jun 28 22:41:51 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 08:41:51 +1000 Subject: fedora-trans-ar list is available now Message-ID: <1088462510.3488.7.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Hi all, The mailing list for Fedora Translation Project Arabic team is available now: http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-ar For the moment I elected myself as the list maintainer, however, I encourage everyone interested in contributing to Arabic translation of Fedora to subscribe to the list and elect your own maintainer. Let's please move the threads relating to Arabic translation to this list from now on. Thank you, Sarah From munzirtaha at newhorizons.com.sa Mon Jun 28 21:26:28 2004 From: munzirtaha at newhorizons.com.sa (Munzir Taha) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 00:26:28 +0300 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <1088412196.2070.71.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <200406271808.14339.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> <1088412196.2070.71.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406290026.28210.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> On Yaum al-Ithnain 10 Jumaada al-Awal 1425 11:43 am, Sarah Wang wrote: > ?2004?06?28??01:08?Munzir Taha??? > > > I filled the form but haven't received a confirmation yet. > > Your account has been approved and you should have received the > confirmation email with your cvs access and login information. Please > let me know if you haven't received confirmation email. > > > Also waiting for the fedora-trans-list confirmation. > > You are on the list now, aren't you? :) Thanks every thing is Ok now. I checked out and it's OK. Just I don't know where are the member pages for which I need the login and pin #. Any help please? -- Munzir Taha PGP Key available gpg --recv-keys --keyserver www.mandrakesecure.net F0671821 Telecommunications and Electronics Engineer Linux Registered User #279362 at http://counter.li.org Mandrake Club member Maintainer of the Open Arabic Bugs Project at http://wiki.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs CIW Designer, ICDL, MOUS New Horizons CLC Riyadh, SA From rahal at arabeyes.org Tue Jun 29 00:21:12 2004 From: rahal at arabeyes.org (Youcef Rabah Rahal) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:21:12 +0200 Subject: Fedora and Translation Teams In-Reply-To: <200406282210.57462.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> References: <200406281038.05963.rahal@arabeyes.org> <200406282210.57462.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> Message-ID: <200406290221.13861.rahal@arabeyes.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 28 June 2004 23:30, Munzir Taha wrote: > On Yaum al-Ithnain 10 Jumaada al-Awal 1425 11:38 am, Youcef Rabah Rahal wrote: > > On Sunday 27 June 2004 17:08, Munzir Taha wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > > Yousef, will you please > > > release that file for us. > > > > [...] > > > > As you can't commit yet to Fedora CVS, I think releasing it will not > > resolve the issue and will make you loose more precious time and money. > > You can: > > No, I have a CVS account now so please release it since there is no need to > put a _proxy_ in between ;) Released. > Yousef, we are really going to commit through arabeyes in the present and > future inshallah. I am not against committing via arabeyes in general as > you know but for now release the file so that I release the last remaining > part of anxiety towards the subject. - -- Youcef R. Rahal Arabeyes.org http://www.arabeyes.org/~rahal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA4LX4HDRR6Cd0eSYRAtVVAJ9owTDbrH2Fwbm/9PbCsrX950ieQgCeNDXO 6/BA1P9cI1df1cBWa/X8rrA= =xOoO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From josep at imatge-sintetica.com Tue Jun 29 00:24:35 2004 From: josep at imatge-sintetica.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 02:24:35 +0200 Subject: If there were translation teams... In-Reply-To: <40DFB7E2.1020006@redhat.com> References: <1088227433.1190.169.camel@phobos> <40DD14A7.6060008@redhat.com> <1088236123.1192.257.camel@phobos> <40DFB7E2.1020006@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1088468675.2897.44.camel@phobos> Hi! On dl, 2004-06-28 at 08:17, Bernd Groh wrote: > Josep Puigdemont schrieb: > >On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 08:16, Bernd Groh wrote: > >>Josep, > >> > >>>If there were translation teams, and I was the coordinator of my team... > >>> > >>Isn't that the case? Do you want to be the maintainer of all modules for > >>catalan now or not? I haven't heard any objections, so it's yours for > >>the taking. :) > >> > >> > > > >I wanted to ask the other Catalan translators who are not subscribed > >here for comments, if they had any objections, etc, in our own mailing > >list (fedora at softcatala dot org). Although I haven't done that yet, I > >did apply as a maintainer for dist module (I was too lazy to go over all > >modules and apply for each one of them). > > > > Hmmm, I didn't get any request. :( > I'll look into it. > I've sent you an email about this. I did the request the 26th of June, but I'm not in a hurry about this, don't worry :) > >>No, I didn't spot any flaws, a lot of your suggestions have already been > >>put in place with the new system. And that exactly is it what puzzles > >>me. Given you've just suggested a lot of things that we've just put in > >>place with the new status pages, why again is it that it is criticized > >>so much? Why even do people say it nullifies existing translation teams? > > > >Because they are not mentioned at all, nor they seem to be encouraged, > > > > Well, they weren't mentioned before, and as I read it, was most of the > critique addressed particularly against the new status pages. Or was the > critique not addressed at the new status pages in particular, but "now" > or "new status pages" actually referred to "then" and "since the > beginning"? If that's the case, why not say so explicitly, why blame the > newest change? At least then I would have understood what you are on > about and could have simply agreed with you straight away. > For me it was not about the status pages, I was just worried about consistency and not having teams. I obviously missled you if I made you think otherwise. I think we agree in most of the thinks, though. > > >and because if I am a new translator I wouldn't know who to contact to > >(GNOME tells me very clearly to check for my team's coordinator). I > >don't think that what Christian meant was that teams can not be > >implemented, I think he meant that teams are not needed at all, thus > >will hardly be created, because you have to consider that translation > >teams have lots of translators with the best intentions that get tired > >too quickly (at least in my short experience). > > > > Can you understand though, that it is hard for me to tell what is meant > if the new status pages are blamed in particular? I believe, that the > new status pages were simply a trigger, however, I am still not entirely > sure. Neither am I at this point!! well, summer is here and it seems that the waters are calm again, so I'm not going to "put more wood to the fire" (as we say). > >If the path you're going is the path we are going, maybe we should also > >know what the future plans are, and the direction we're taking. > > > > Of course, we want to get team pages up. And maybe that should be the > next step, together with creating mailing lists for the individual > languages. We all want that, Fedora wants that. Otherwise, I have to How would that work for already established teams that already have mailing lists? Should they change to a Red Hat one? Would Fedora allow having lists outside Fedora? (our current list is fedora at softcatala dot org, which is open to everybody) > continue with how *I*'d do things, and that is *not* to be taken as any > plans Fedora may have, it's what would happen if I had a say. I am not > going to deny someone cvs access unless I have a person that I can make [...] > >>implemented with the new upgrade. I simply won't restrict anyone cvs > >>access until we're fully organized, that's all. :) > > > >Ok, why not speed it up a bit, then? How can we help? > > > >Seems to me that the crowds want teams. Then make a poll and check if > >that is so, and if it is, let's try to organize teams... Make a call for > >team building, or just look who's been committing for each language to > >find out who could be a maintainer (ask them to be maintainers, as you > >wanted us to ask translators to become part of our teams, I know you > >already did), or who could be a member of a team... Look the headers of > >the po files for email addresses of translators, see if they are > >subscribed here, maybe you could invite them to (maybe thank them for > >their work too)... > > > > No poll required, I believe team pages are necessary. How you can help? > Well, maybe you can look at who's been commiting for each language and I'd gladly do that if it wasn't because I am on vacations on a remote town without a regular Internet connection (I connect at night when my GF is not looking, geeee! how was life before the Internet?! :) > email me the list? :) Or, at least, and that's what everyone can help > with, see who's been committing for your language, ask them to join this > mailing list and speak up, and not just if things aren't the way they > want them to be. And, thank you! I think I did that, but I'll tell them again. > > >I think that whatever the methodology/system for translations is going > >to be, it should be discussed in this list. Like I think this new method > >should have been discussed here too before being implemented. I mean, it > >is us (translators should be subscribed here) to whom it affect, and yet > >we didn't know about it until it appeared (at least I didn't). > > > > Sounds reasonable. The participants of the individual mailing list will What are those individual mailing lists, anyway? > then have to post every system related issue that comes up also to this > list though, since I couldn't do it, even if I wanted too. :) Maybe you > can ask them to post all system related requests to this list? Thank you! No need to cross post anything, from Fedora's web site: "The place to discuss general translation issues is fedora-trans-list." So let be it :) I can't be subscribed to all mailing lists to see what's going to happen with Fedora's translation system. > I'll keep you up to date. > Thanks! /Josep From pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt Tue Jun 29 00:36:21 2004 From: pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt (Pedro Morais) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:36:21 +0100 Subject: fedora-trans-ar list is available now In-Reply-To: <1088462510.3488.7.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1088462510.3488.7.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406290136.21788.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Em Segunda, 28 de Junho de 2004 23:41, Sarah Wang escreveu: > Hi all, > > The mailing list for Fedora Translation Project Arabic team is available > now: > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-ar I know there hasn't been as much discussion as with ar, but I requested a list for pt a few day ago... -- Pedro Morais - morais at kde.org - http://www.rnl.ist.utl.pt/~pmmm/ From sarahs at redhat.com Tue Jun 29 00:48:04 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:48:04 +1000 Subject: fedora-trans-ar list is available now In-Reply-To: <200406290136.21788.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> References: <1088462510.3488.7.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406290136.21788.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Message-ID: <1088470084.3488.18.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 10:36, Pedro Morais wrote: > I know there hasn't been as much discussion as with ar, but I requested a list > for pt a few day ago... Noted. When I get another 4 requests I will set up the list :) and you would be the maintainer since you are the first one requested it. Sarah From sabdelg at redhat.com Tue Jun 29 00:57:23 2004 From: sabdelg at redhat.com (Sherif Abdelgawad) Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: fedora-trans-ar list is available now In-Reply-To: <1088462510.3488.7.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: Thanks Sarah for setting up the list. Can you guys please subscribe to the new list, and let us move over there? Thanks Sherif On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Sarah Wang wrote: > Hi all, > > The mailing list for Fedora Translation Project Arabic team is available > now: > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-ar > > For the moment I elected myself as the list maintainer, however, I > encourage everyone interested in contributing to Arabic translation of > Fedora to subscribe to the list and elect your own maintainer. > > Let's please move the threads relating to Arabic translation to this > list from now on. > > Thank you, > Sarah > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > From pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt Tue Jun 29 00:53:41 2004 From: pmmm at rnl.ist.utl.pt (Pedro Morais) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 01:53:41 +0100 Subject: fedora-trans-ar list is available now In-Reply-To: <1088470084.3488.18.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1088462510.3488.7.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406290136.21788.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> <1088470084.3488.18.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200406290153.41864.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Em Ter?a, 29 de Junho de 2004 01:48, Sarah Wang escreveu: > On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 10:36, Pedro Morais wrote: > > I know there hasn't been as much discussion as with ar, but I requested a > > list for pt a few day ago... > > Noted. When I get another 4 requests I will set up the list :) and you > would be the maintainer since you are the first one requested it. I think I'm already the maintainer :-) I've mailed Bernd Groh privatly about that with 4 other addresses, and he said he was forwarding the malling list request. > > Sarah > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list -- Pedro Morais - morais at kde.org - http://www.rnl.ist.utl.pt/~pmmm/ From sarahs at redhat.com Tue Jun 29 01:13:46 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:13:46 +1000 Subject: fedora-trans-ar list is available now In-Reply-To: <200406290153.41864.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> References: <1088462510.3488.7.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406290136.21788.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> <1088470084.3488.18.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406290153.41864.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Message-ID: <1088471626.3488.22.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 10:53, Pedro Morais wrote: > Em Ter?a, 29 de Junho de 2004 01:48, Sarah Wang escreveu: > > On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 10:36, Pedro Morais wrote: > > > I know there hasn't been as much discussion as with ar, but I requested a > > > list for pt a few day ago... > > > > Noted. When I get another 4 requests I will set up the list :) and you > > would be the maintainer since you are the first one requested it. > > I think I'm already the maintainer :-) > I've mailed Bernd Groh privatly about that with 4 other addresses, and he said > he was forwarding the malling list request. OK, I'm on it. Stay tuned :) > > > > > Sarah > > > > > > -- > > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From jam at siriusbb.com Tue Jun 29 05:08:18 2004 From: jam at siriusbb.com (Jamil Ahmed) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:08:18 +0600 Subject: username/password for web access... References: <022e01c45c37$83062070$0a01a8c0@Jamil> <40DFC2A5.9020609@redhat.com> Message-ID: <016901c45d97$187ebb20$0a01a8c0@Jamil> Bernd, I didn't get any email...Pls send it again ... I guess you have sent it to my old email address which is dead now. jamil at ssl-idt.net Currently I am using jam at siriusbb.com or jamil at bengalinux.org btw, why can't I update thru CVS? I am maintaining Bengali/Bangla translation from the beginning. Thanks, `Jamil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernd Groh" To: "Fedora Translation Project List" Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 1:03 PM Subject: Re: username/password for web access... > Jamil, > > you should receive an email shortly, if you don't, please let me know. > > Bernd > > > Jamil Ahmed schrieb: > > >Hello, > > What will be the user/pass for taking the available file from web? > >I have tried with my cvs user/pass.. but it doesn't work. > > What should be done? > >Username of my cvs account is, jamil > > > >Thanks, > >`Jamil From bgroh at redhat.com Tue Jun 29 05:47:40 2004 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 15:47:40 +1000 Subject: username/password for web access... In-Reply-To: <016901c45d97$187ebb20$0a01a8c0@Jamil> References: <022e01c45c37$83062070$0a01a8c0@Jamil> <40DFC2A5.9020609@redhat.com> <016901c45d97$187ebb20$0a01a8c0@Jamil> Message-ID: <40E1027C.4080006@redhat.com> Hi Jamil, I've updated your email address, you should have received (or will receive shortly) an email stating your login name and pin (to be used as password). We've made some adaptations to our system, in order to minimise conflicts. If you've been maintaining Bengali/Bangla translations from the beginning, you can chose to apply as a maintainer. Either for a certain module, which can be done via the status pages, or for an entire language, which should be done via this list. Regards, Bernd Jamil Ahmed schrieb: >Bernd, > I didn't get any email...Pls send it again ... >I guess you have sent it to my old email address which is dead now. >jamil at ssl-idt.net >Currently I am using jam at siriusbb.com or jamil at bengalinux.org > >btw, why can't I update thru CVS? I am maintaining Bengali/Bangla >translation from the beginning. > >Thanks, >`Jamil > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bernd Groh" >To: "Fedora Translation Project List" >Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 1:03 PM >Subject: Re: username/password for web access... > > > > >>Jamil, >> >>you should receive an email shortly, if you don't, please let me know. >> >>Bernd >> >> >>Jamil Ahmed schrieb: >> >> >> >>>Hello, >>> What will be the user/pass for taking the available file from >>> >>> >web? > > >>>I have tried with my cvs user/pass.. but it doesn't work. >>> What should be done? >>>Username of my cvs account is, jamil >>> >>>Thanks, >>>`Jamil >>> >>> > > > > > > -- Dr. Bernd R. Groh Phone : +61 7 3514 8114 Software Engineer (Localization) Fax : +61 7 3514 8199 Red Hat Asia-Pacific Mobile: +61 403 851 269 Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer/ From jam at siriusbb.com Tue Jun 29 05:54:33 2004 From: jam at siriusbb.com (Jamil Ahmed) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 11:54:33 +0600 Subject: username/password for web access... References: <022e01c45c37$83062070$0a01a8c0@Jamil> <40DFC2A5.9020609@redhat.com> <016901c45d97$187ebb20$0a01a8c0@Jamil> <40E1027C.4080006@redhat.com> Message-ID: <019201c45d9d$8ea78b50$0a01a8c0@Jamil> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bernd Groh" To: "Jamil Ahmed" Cc: "Fedora Translation Project List" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 11:47 AM Subject: Re: username/password for web access... > Hi Jamil, > > I've updated your email address, you should have received (or will > receive shortly) an email stating your login name and pin (to be used as Thanks! I got the mail. > password). We've made some adaptations to our system, in order to > minimise conflicts. If you've been maintaining Bengali/Bangla > translations from the beginning, you can chose to apply as a maintainer. > Either for a certain module, which can be done via the status pages, or > for an entire language, which should be done via this list. Yes, I want to apply to be a Maintainer of entire Bengali/Bangla language translation. :-) Thanks, `Jamil > > Regards, > Bernd > > Jamil Ahmed schrieb: > > >Bernd, > > I didn't get any email...Pls send it again ... > >I guess you have sent it to my old email address which is dead now. > >jamil at ssl-idt.net > >Currently I am using jam at siriusbb.com or jamil at bengalinux.org > > > >btw, why can't I update thru CVS? I am maintaining Bengali/Bangla > >translation from the beginning. > > > >Thanks, > >`Jamil > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Bernd Groh" > >To: "Fedora Translation Project List" > >Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 1:03 PM > >Subject: Re: username/password for web access... > > > > > > > > > >>Jamil, > >> > >>you should receive an email shortly, if you don't, please let me know. > >> > >>Bernd > >> > >> > >>Jamil Ahmed schrieb: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Hello, > >>> What will be the user/pass for taking the available file from > >>> > >>> > >web? > > > > > >>>I have tried with my cvs user/pass.. but it doesn't work. > >>> What should be done? > >>>Username of my cvs account is, jamil > >>> > >>>Thanks, > >>>`Jamil From xamc at rumos.pt Tue Jun 29 11:49:00 2004 From: xamc at rumos.pt (Alexandre Costa) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 12:49:00 +0100 Subject: Erase a account. References: <006c01c45c44$a6a550c0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX><40DF78E4.2090406@redhat.com> <001801c45d21$f466d3a0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> <1088461982.3488.0.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <002001c45dcf$12a604a0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Hi Sarah. here are the details Request details are: name:Alexandre Costa login:DarkFox Thanx. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah Wang" To: "Fedora Translation Project List" Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: Re: Erase a account. : What's your login name? : : Sarah : : On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 01:09, Alexandre Costa wrote: : > Hi Yelitza. : > : > Tnx, but i was talking about the translator account (used in the cvs). : > : > Anyone can point me in being able to erase it ? : : : : -- : Fedora-trans-list mailing list : Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com : http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From munzirtaha at newhorizons.com.sa Tue Jun 29 17:27:45 2004 From: munzirtaha at newhorizons.com.sa (Munzir Taha) Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:27:45 +0300 Subject: a question regarding cvs commit Message-ID: <200406292027.45208.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> I am about to commit the dist.po file after translating part of it to Arabic. since this is my first commit and I think I am missing something. $ cvs commit specspo/ar.po cvs commit: use `cvs add' to create an entry for specspo/ar.po cvs [commit aborted]: correct above errors first! I thought this may be because the file is taken (removed?) by me, $ cvs -z9 co specspo/ar.po Enter passphrase for key '/home/munzir/.ssh/id_dsa': cvs server: warning: new-born specspo/ar.po has disappeared The above message gave me that impression, so I released it first and tried again but the same message. Is it necessary to do cvs add first? I don't want to mess things up so I decided to ask first. -- Munzir Taha PGP Key available gpg --recv-keys --keyserver www.mandrakesecure.net F0671821 Telecommunications and Electronics Engineer Linux Registered User #279362 at http://counter.li.org Mandrake Club member Maintainer of the Open Arabic Bugs Project at http://wiki.arabeyes.org/OpenBugs CIW Designer, ICDL, MOUS New Horizons CLC Riyadh, SA From razvan.vilt at linux360.ro Tue Jun 29 22:00:20 2004 From: razvan.vilt at linux360.ro (Razvan Corneliu C.R. "d3vi1" VILT) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 01:00:20 +0300 Subject: a question regarding cvs commit In-Reply-To: <200406292027.45208.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> References: <200406292027.45208.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> Message-ID: <1088546421.6370.2.camel@d3vi1.linux360.ro> On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 20:27 +0300, Munzir Taha wrote: > I am about to commit the dist.po file after translating part of it to Arabic. > since this is my first commit and I think I am missing something. > > $ cvs commit specspo/ar.po > cvs commit: use `cvs add' to create an entry for specspo/ar.po > cvs [commit aborted]: correct above errors first! Try doing exactly what it said: $ cvs add specspo/ar.po ;-) Cheers, R?zvan R?zvan Corneliu VILT e-mail:razvan.vilt at linux360.ro GPG:http://d3vi1.linux360.ro/public-keys/ www: http://d3vi1.linux360.ro/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smiley-4.png Type: image/png Size: 822 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature Size: 1707 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sarahs at redhat.com Tue Jun 29 23:19:40 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:19:40 +1000 Subject: Erase a account. In-Reply-To: <002001c45dcf$12a604a0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> References: <006c01c45c44$a6a550c0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> <40DF78E4.2090406@redhat.com> <001801c45d21$f466d3a0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> <1088461982.3488.0.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <002001c45dcf$12a604a0$6e00a8c0@DARKFOX> Message-ID: <1088551179.2700.8.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Done. On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 21:49, Alexandre Costa wrote: > Hi Sarah. > > here are the details > > Request details are: > name:Alexandre Costa > login:DarkFox > > Thanx. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sarah Wang" > To: "Fedora Translation Project List" > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 11:33 PM > Subject: Re: Erase a account. > > > : What's your login name? > : > : Sarah > : > : On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 01:09, Alexandre Costa wrote: > : > Hi Yelitza. > : > > : > Tnx, but i was talking about the translator account (used in the cvs). > : > > : > Anyone can point me in being able to erase it ? > : > : > : > : -- > : Fedora-trans-list mailing list > : Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > : http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From sarahs at redhat.com Wed Jun 30 03:06:17 2004 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:06:17 +1000 Subject: fedora-trans-pt list is available now In-Reply-To: <200406290153.41864.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> References: <1088462510.3488.7.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406290136.21788.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> <1088470084.3488.18.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <200406290153.41864.pmmm@rnl.ist.utl.pt> Message-ID: <1088564777.2700.235.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Hi all, A new list fedora-trans-pt is available now. The administrator for this list is: Pedro Morais (cc'ed here). All Portuguese translators please feel free to subscribe to that list and discuss issues concern that locale. Regards, Sarah From tome at users.ossm.org.mk Wed Jun 30 19:01:45 2004 From: tome at users.ossm.org.mk (=?koi8-r?Q?=F4=CF=CD=C9=D3=CC=C1=D7_?= =?koi8-r?Q?=ED=C1=D2=CB=CF=D7=D3=CB=C9?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 21:01:45 +0200 Subject: a question regarding cvs commit In-Reply-To: <200406292027.45208.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> References: <200406292027.45208.munzirtaha@newhorizons.com.sa> Message-ID: <1088622104.2295.18.camel@localhost.localdomain> On ???, 2004-06-29 at 19:27, Munzir Taha wrote: > I am about to commit the dist.po file after translating part of it to Arabic. > since this is my first commit and I think I am missing something. > If an ar.po can be checked out using 'cvs co specspo/ar.po' (and it is there, I just checked), than try descening into the 'specspo' directory first: cd specspo cvs commit -m "your log entry" ar.po You have to 'Take' the file first using the web interface. From elzubeir at arabeyes.org Wed Jun 30 19:24:05 2004 From: elzubeir at arabeyes.org (Mohammed Elzubeir) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 23:24:05 +0400 Subject: Arabeyes Forgoes Fedora Arabic Translation Project Message-ID: <1088623445.10046.7.camel@grumpy> After much debate and careful consideration in light of the many emails (many of which were passionate and full of incitement), Arabeyes regretfully announces the suspension of its current participation pending further review of Fedora's upcoming policy. This decision was not made hastily nor without debate, but in light of all the recent changes/discussions and Fedora's lack of appreciation and recognition of Arabeyes' efforts and its team-centric attitude, it was decided that it is best if Arabeyes steps aside. The decision was made by Arabeyes 'core' managers as well as 3 of the key Fedora translators who have noted losing any interest in working on the Fedora translation project (note, the vote was 6 to 1 in favor of suspension). We don't believe our feelings are unique with this regard in the Open Source community with respect to the approach and conduct regarding translations. We do, however, think its in Fedora's and the Open Source community's best interest to consider a more team encouraging approach to localization projects. It was a shame to see such a trivial issue mushroom out of control. Arabeyes' intentions were/are not to 'take control' of anything but rather to unify all aspects of Arabic contributions (including translations) across Open Source software (scattered and disorganized attempts failed in the past). This is the last we are going to say about this topic and we humbly request all Arabeyes members to simply forgo this topic entirely -- we've said all we want to say. Those who are looking to know the truth behind Arabeyes and its achievements should visit its homepage and study its contributions and compare them to those making unjust accusations. We work transparently and expect others to do the same. -- Arabeyes.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From tome at users.ossm.org.mk Wed Jun 30 20:25:44 2004 From: tome at users.ossm.org.mk (=?koi8-r?Q?=F4=CF=CD=C9=D3=CC=C1=D7_?= =?koi8-r?Q?=ED=C1=D2=CB=CF=D7=D3=CB=C9?=) Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 22:25:44 +0200 Subject: Arabeyes Forgoes Fedora Arabic Translation Project In-Reply-To: <1088623445.10046.7.camel@grumpy> References: <1088623445.10046.7.camel@grumpy> Message-ID: <1088627144.2295.33.camel@localhost.localdomain> On ???, 2004-06-30 at 21:24, Mohammed Elzubeir wrote: > After much debate and careful consideration in light of the many > emails (many of which were passionate and full of incitement), Arabeyes > ... cut ... cut ... > noted losing any interest in working on the Fedora translation project > (note, the vote was 6 to 1 in favor of suspension). This is really bad news. Can't you guys sort things out and find a common language? I'm a member of the Macedonian trans team and I felt I should say something after you guys flooded the list. If you guys are devoted to Fedora and would like to contribute, as you did in the past, then do all the work independantly. Then send the po files to the admins, I'm sure they will accept them gladly, if no other way could be found. There's no point to suspend the initative after being active for so long. Admins, I hope you're not going to let this happen. Arabeyes, on behalf of the Macedonian translation team, I would like to express our full support and call you back to participate in the project. Retreating is not a way to work in an open source community. Things will turn OK at the end. We believe in you. Warm Regards, Macedonian Translation Team