From asimons at redhat.com Tue May 3 23:46:38 2005 From: asimons at redhat.com (Audrey Simons) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 09:46:38 +1000 Subject: TortoiseCVS problem Message-ID: <42780D5E.5050109@redhat.com> I'm forwarding the following message to the list hoping that someone will know what the problem is. Philippe has followed the instructions on how to use TortoiseCVS in Windows, but cannot connect to the server. He gets the error message "host does not exist", although all ports are enabled. Anyone has seen this problem before? Many thanks, Audrey -------- Original Message -------- Subject: RE: Bienvenue Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:03:59 +0200 From: Philippe To: 'Audrey Simons' Bonjour, En suivant les instructions je n'arrive pas ? me connecter au serveur, Tortoise CVS me dit "host does not exist" Savez-vus d'o? pourrait provenir le probl?me ? (tous les ports sont autoris?s) From alekandr at gmail.com Thu May 5 22:41:00 2005 From: alekandr at gmail.com (Alekandr Mikalyovic) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 23:41:00 +0100 Subject: TortoiseCVS problem In-Reply-To: <42780D5E.5050109@redhat.com> References: <42780D5E.5050109@redhat.com> Message-ID: <29fb59fd0505051541acd6510@mail.gmail.com> make sure that the port is defined in the host. i.e. 127.0.0.1:8080 etcetc On 5/4/05, Audrey Simons wrote: > I'm forwarding the following message to the list hoping that someone > will know what the problem is. > Philippe has followed the instructions on how to use TortoiseCVS in > Windows, but cannot connect to the server. > He gets the error message "host does not exist", although all ports are > enabled. > > Anyone has seen this problem before? > Many thanks, > Audrey > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RE: Bienvenue > Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:03:59 +0200 > From: Philippe > To: 'Audrey Simons' > > Bonjour, > > En suivant les instructions je n'arrive pas ? me connecter au serveur, > Tortoise CVS me dit "host does not exist" > > Savez-vus d'o? pourrait provenir le probl?me ? (tous les ports sont > autoris?s) > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > From dencouf at gmail.com Fri May 6 07:44:58 2005 From: dencouf at gmail.com (Bart Couvreur) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 09:44:58 +0200 Subject: TortoiseCVS problem In-Reply-To: <29fb59fd0505051541acd6510@mail.gmail.com> References: <42780D5E.5050109@redhat.com> <29fb59fd0505051541acd6510@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <714a2efb0505060044590da275@mail.gmail.com> On 5/6/05, Alekandr Mikalyovic wrote: > make sure that the port is defined in the host. i.e. 127.0.0.1:8080 etcetc > > > On 5/4/05, Audrey Simons wrote: > > I'm forwarding the following message to the list hoping that someone > > will know what the problem is. > > Philippe has followed the instructions on how to use TortoiseCVS in > > Windows, but cannot connect to the server. > > He gets the error message "host does not exist", although all ports are > > enabled. > > > > Anyone has seen this problem before? > > Many thanks, > > Audrey > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: RE: Bienvenue > > Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:03:59 +0200 > > From: Philippe > > To: 'Audrey Simons' > > > > Bonjour, > > > > En suivant les instructions je n'arrive pas ? me connecter au serveur, > > Tortoise CVS me dit "host does not exist" > > > > Savez-vus d'o? pourrait provenir le probl?me ? (tous les ports sont > > autoris?s) > > > > -- > > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > From aietkolkhi at gmail.com Fri May 6 18:16:02 2005 From: aietkolkhi at gmail.com (Aiet Kolkhi) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 22:16:02 +0400 Subject: TortoiseCVS problem In-Reply-To: <714a2efb0505060044590da275@mail.gmail.com> References: <42780D5E.5050109@redhat.com> <29fb59fd0505051541acd6510@mail.gmail.com> <714a2efb0505060044590da275@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <610707575.20050506221602@gmail.com> As a matter of fact, I have been having the same issue :) Any solution would be welcome. Does Fedora CVS require SSH tunneling? Aiet BC> On 5/6/05, Alekandr Mikalyovic wrote: >> make sure that the port is defined in the host. i.e. 127.0.0.1:8080 etcetc >> >> >> On 5/4/05, Audrey Simons wrote: >> > I'm forwarding the following message to the list hoping that someone >> > will know what the problem is. >> > Philippe has followed the instructions on how to use TortoiseCVS in >> > Windows, but cannot connect to the server. >> > He gets the error message "host does not exist", although all ports are >> > enabled. >> > >> > Anyone has seen this problem before? >> > Many thanks, >> > Audrey >> > >> > -------- Original Message -------- >> > Subject: RE: Bienvenue >> > Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:03:59 +0200 >> > From: Philippe >> > To: 'Audrey Simons' >> > >> > Bonjour, >> > >> > En suivant les instructions je n'arrive pas ? me connecter au serveur, >> > Tortoise CVS me dit "host does not exist" >> > >> > Savez-vus d'o? pourrait provenir le probl?me ? (tous les ports sont >> > autoris?s) >> > >> > -- >> > Fedora-trans-list mailing list >> > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >> > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list >> > >> >> -- >> Fedora-trans-list mailing list >> Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >> http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From aietkolkhi at gmail.com Sat May 7 07:40:08 2005 From: aietkolkhi at gmail.com (Aiet Kolkhi) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 11:40:08 +0400 Subject: TortoiseCVS problem In-Reply-To: <29fb59fd0505051541acd6510@mail.gmail.com> References: <42780D5E.5050109@redhat.com> <29fb59fd0505051541acd6510@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1748540448.20050507114008@gmail.com> Friday, May 6, 2005, 2:41:00 AM, Alekandr wrote: AM> make sure that the port is defined in the host. i.e. 127.0.0.1:8080 etcetc Does this mean one has to use SSH tunneling? -- Best regards, Aiet From dencouf at gmail.com Sat May 7 09:04:06 2005 From: dencouf at gmail.com (Bart Couvreur) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 11:04:06 +0200 Subject: TortoiseCVS problem In-Reply-To: <1748540448.20050507114008@gmail.com> References: <42780D5E.5050109@redhat.com> <29fb59fd0505051541acd6510@mail.gmail.com> <1748540448.20050507114008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <714a2efb05050702044478499c@mail.gmail.com> Hi guys, Sorry about the first mail (apparently I resent the mail, and didn't see it until now) I did have the same problem and I solved it this way with some putty-help: (just one word of precausion: I'm writing this from a Linux-box and am not quite 100% sure, it's been some time that I just Windows to translate Fedora) opened the putty-key-aggent (PAGEANT.EXE) and added my ssh-key in it Then I changed in Tortoise-CVS my CVSROOT to :ssh:user at i18n.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS and this strangely enough worked! Enjoy Bart On 5/7/05, Aiet Kolkhi wrote: > Friday, May 6, 2005, 2:41:00 AM, Alekandr wrote: > > AM> make sure that the port is defined in the host. i.e. 127.0.0.1:8080 etcetc > > Does this mean one has to use SSH tunneling? > > -- > Best regards, > Aiet > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > From gehenom at netvision.net.il Sat May 7 11:56:45 2005 From: gehenom at netvision.net.il (gehenom) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 14:56:45 +0300 Subject: TortoiseCVS problem In-Reply-To: <714a2efb05050702044478499c@mail.gmail.com> References: <42780D5E.5050109@redhat.com> <29fb59fd0505051541acd6510@mail.gmail.com> <1748540448.20050507114008@gmail.com> <714a2efb05050702044478499c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1115467005.30028.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Please subscribe me from the list. On Sat, 2005-05-07 at 11:04 +0200, Bart Couvreur wrote: > Hi guys, > > Sorry about the first mail (apparently I resent the mail, and didn't > see it until now) > > I did have the same problem and I solved it this way with some > putty-help: (just one word of precausion: I'm writing this from a > Linux-box and am not quite 100% sure, it's been some time that I just > Windows to translate Fedora) > > opened the putty-key-aggent (PAGEANT.EXE) and added my ssh-key in it > Then I changed in Tortoise-CVS my CVSROOT to > :ssh:user at i18n.redhat.com:/usr/local/CVS and this strangely enough > worked! > > Enjoy > > Bart > > On 5/7/05, Aiet Kolkhi wrote: > > Friday, May 6, 2005, 2:41:00 AM, Alekandr wrote: > > > > AM> make sure that the port is defined in the host. i.e. 127.0.0.1:8080 etcetc > > > > Does this mean one has to use SSH tunneling? > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Aiet > > > > -- > > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From locales at geez.org Thu May 12 21:42:27 2005 From: locales at geez.org (Daniel Yacob) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:42:27 -0500 Subject: HOWTO For Testing New Translations? Message-ID: Greets, The "Essential Modules" for Amharic have reached the 100% translation level. We would like to refine the translations before going further onto translating other packages. This means testing the translations with their running applications. How is this done? I've searched around and find the question asked a lot but no answers seem to be out there. Has anyone written a "HOWTO" or some other helpful documentation? I'm willing to write one if not but will need some guidance to get started. Any help appreciated. thanks, /Daniel From webmaster at margo.bijoux.nom.br Thu May 12 12:20:42 2005 From: webmaster at margo.bijoux.nom.br (Pedro Fernandes Macedo) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:20:42 -0300 Subject: HOWTO For Testing New Translations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42834A1A.5070809@margo.bijoux.nom.br> Daniel Yacob wrote: >How is this done? I've searched around and find the question asked a >lot but no answers seem to be out there. Has anyone written a "HOWTO" >or some other helpful documentation? I'm willing to write one if not >but will need some guidance to get started. Any help appreciated. > > Here's a small translation of a guide provided by David Barzilay on an e-mail for the pt_BR team: 1. close all instances of the programs that use the po file 2. go to the directory that contains the file and then run : "msgfmt your_locale.po -o .mo" 3. make a backup copy of the file "/usr/share/locale/your_locale/LC_MESSAGES/.mo" 4. cp .mo /usr/share/locale/your_locale/LC_MESSAGES/. 5. run the program and your translation will be there I've done those steps when testing a few of the translations for FC4 on my FC3.. Some strings surelly will be missing , so the ideal option is using FC4T3 to test the translations. In my case , I upgraded some programs from rawhide to test them (and some of them couldnt be tested , since the dependency chain was too big). -- Pedro Macedo From locales at geez.org Sat May 14 05:10:15 2005 From: locales at geez.org (Daniel Yacob) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 00:10:15 -0500 Subject: HOWTO For Testing New Translations? Message-ID: Pedro, Thanks for the response. I am familiar with using po files in general, but as part of an installation process I think that there must be more involved. Since the installer runs from a CD, the anaconda and associated POs and fonts have to be burned onto the disk with the other setup files. Or, can anaconda be safely run in a testing mode from a hard disk to evaluate translations? What would the right invocation? thanks, /Daniel From mstefani at redhat.com Fri May 13 19:32:50 2005 From: mstefani at redhat.com (Michael Stefaniuc) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:32:50 +0200 Subject: HOWTO For Testing New Translations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428500E2.7050505@redhat.com> Daniel Yacob wrote: > Pedro, > > Thanks for the response. I am familiar with using po files in general, but > as part of an installation process I think that there must be more involved. > Since the installer runs from a CD, the anaconda and associated POs and fonts > have to be burned onto the disk with the other setup files. > > Or, can anaconda be safely run in a testing mode from a hard disk to evaluate > translations? What would the right invocation? Afaik anaconda has such a mode, the anaconda developers use it themself to develop/test anaconda. You may want to check the anaconda documentation. bye michael -- Michael Stefaniuc Tel.: +49-711-96437-199 Sr. Network Engineer Fax.: +49-711-96437-111 Red Hat GmbH Email: mstefani at redhat.com Hauptstaetterstr. 58 http://www.redhat.de/ D-70178 Stuttgart From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Sat May 14 09:53:00 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:53:00 +0200 Subject: HOWTO For Testing New Translations? In-Reply-To: <428500E2.7050505@redhat.com> References: <428500E2.7050505@redhat.com> Message-ID: <200505141153.01036.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Friday 13 May 2005 21:32, Michael Stefaniuc wrote: > Daniel Yacob wrote: > > Pedro, > > > > Thanks for the response. I am familiar with using po files in general, > > but as part of an installation process I think that there must be more > > involved. Since the installer runs from a CD, the anaconda and associated > > POs and fonts have to be burned onto the disk with the other setup files. > > > > Or, can anaconda be safely run in a testing mode from a hard disk to > > evaluate translations? What would the right invocation? > > Afaik anaconda has such a mode, the anaconda developers use it themself > to develop/test anaconda. You may want to check the anaconda documentation. > something like this anaconda --test --method= --graphical for a even better test you can make an update disk (put your translation in po/.mo) for NFS installs you can put it in /RHupdates/po (details in german here: http://www.linuxwiki.org/Anaconda/UpdateDiskette) -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From josep.puigdemont at gmail.com Sun May 15 08:22:32 2005 From: josep.puigdemont at gmail.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:22:32 +0200 Subject: desc and summary Message-ID: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> Hej! I've seen that two new modules are to be translated (with quite a lot of strings on them), however, these are not for FC4, are they? /Josep From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Sun May 15 10:05:03 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:05:03 +0200 Subject: desc and summary In-Reply-To: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> References: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> Message-ID: <200505151205.04007.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Sunday 15 May 2005 10:22, Josep Puigdemont wrote: > Hej! > > I've seen that two new modules are to be translated (with quite a lot of > strings on them), however, these are not for FC4, are they? Seems to be a split up of dist and to be up to date. But the question remains, is it used in FC4? -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From josep.puigdemont at gmail.com Sun May 15 17:37:51 2005 From: josep.puigdemont at gmail.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:37:51 +0200 Subject: desc and summary In-Reply-To: <200505151205.04007.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <200505151205.04007.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <1116178672.6360.7.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> El dg 15 de 05 del 2005 a les 12:05 +0200, en/na Ronny Buchmann va escriure: > On Sunday 15 May 2005 10:22, Josep Puigdemont wrote: > > Hej! > > > > I've seen that two new modules are to be translated (with quite a lot of > > strings on them), however, these are not for FC4, are they? > Seems to be a split up of dist and to be up to date. You're right, it does look like it, but many translations seem to have been forgotten during the split :( I hope it is not because all strings are new! > > But the question remains, is it used in FC4? > I really hope not ;-) we put a lot of work on dist, which seems to have temporarily vanished. Besides we are in string freeze now, no? /Josep From bgroh at redhat.com Sun May 15 20:57:09 2005 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 06:57:09 +1000 Subject: desc and summary In-Reply-To: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> References: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> Message-ID: <4287B7A5.8020906@redhat.com> Hi Josep, please ignore desc and summary for now. I'm currently in the process of re-organizing specspo, which includes, as Ronny has noted, a split of dist.pot into desc.pot and summary.pot. As of yet, desc.pot and summary.pot are not to be translated, and the translations of dist.pot won't yet be moved. I'm currently doing a live testing of the new toolchain keeping the specspo pot up to date at all times (desc and summary, that is, dist is still the current module, but will soon be replaced by desc and summary), which includes an automatic update of desc.pot and summary.pot. If everything is stable, we'll pick a date on which we move all translations to the new modules and let dist die. From then on forward, the specspo pot modules will be kept up to date, and the latest translations will make it into the package. Cheers, Bernd Josep Puigdemont wrote: >Hej! > >I've seen that two new modules are to be translated (with quite a lot of >strings on them), however, these are not for FC4, are they? > >/Josep > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > From keld at dkuug.dk Mon May 16 11:13:01 2005 From: keld at dkuug.dk (Keld =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=F8rn?= Simonsen) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:13:01 +0200 Subject: desc and summary In-Reply-To: <4287B7A5.8020906@redhat.com> References: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <4287B7A5.8020906@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050516111301.GA20634@rap.rap.dk> Hej! Where in the cvs tree will these new modules be placed? Somewhere in the specspo tree, or in their own directory? Will there be an initial language vesion generated by redhat? I assume that many strings can be copied from the current dist file. And what are these strings used for, anyway? Which programs use them? best regards keld On Mon, May 16, 2005 at 06:57:09AM +1000, Bernd Groh wrote: > Hi Josep, > > please ignore desc and summary for now. > > I'm currently in the process of re-organizing specspo, which includes, > as Ronny has noted, a split of dist.pot into desc.pot and summary.pot. > As of yet, desc.pot and summary.pot are not to be translated, and the > translations of dist.pot won't yet be moved. I'm currently doing a live > testing of the new toolchain keeping the specspo pot up to date at all > times (desc and summary, that is, dist is still the current module, but > will soon be replaced by desc and summary), which includes an automatic > update of desc.pot and summary.pot. If everything is stable, we'll pick > a date on which we move all translations to the new modules and let dist > die. From then on forward, the specspo pot modules will be kept up to > date, and the latest translations will make it into the package. > > Cheers, > Bernd > > > Josep Puigdemont wrote: > > >Hej! > > > >I've seen that two new modules are to be translated (with quite a lot of > >strings on them), however, these are not for FC4, are they? > > > >/Josep > > > > > >-- > >Fedora-trans-list mailing list > >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > > > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Mon May 16 17:25:37 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:25:37 +0200 Subject: adding new translations Message-ID: <200505161925.37517.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Hi It seems that only the package maintainer can add new po files, not the translator himself. Is there a reason for this and can it be changed? -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From josep.puigdemont at gmail.com Mon May 16 20:07:59 2005 From: josep.puigdemont at gmail.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:07:59 +0200 Subject: desc and summary In-Reply-To: <4287B7A5.8020906@redhat.com> References: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <4287B7A5.8020906@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1116274080.6347.10.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> Hi Bernd! El dl 16 de 05 del 2005 a les 06:57 +1000, en/na Bernd Groh va escriure: > Hi Josep, > > please ignore desc and summary for now. Now that's relieving :) Whenever this is ready and specspo disapears, could you please keep the same maintainer for summary and desc as it was for specspo? (Sarah, maybe?) Thanks! Nice work! /Josep > > I'm currently in the process of re-organizing specspo, which includes, > as Ronny has noted, a split of dist.pot into desc.pot and summary.pot. > As of yet, desc.pot and summary.pot are not to be translated, and the > translations of dist.pot won't yet be moved. I'm currently doing a live > testing of the new toolchain keeping the specspo pot up to date at all > times (desc and summary, that is, dist is still the current module, but > will soon be replaced by desc and summary), which includes an automatic > update of desc.pot and summary.pot. If everything is stable, we'll pick > a date on which we move all translations to the new modules and let dist > die. From then on forward, the specspo pot modules will be kept up to > date, and the latest translations will make it into the package. > > Cheers, > Bernd > > > Josep Puigdemont wrote: > > >Hej! > > > >I've seen that two new modules are to be translated (with quite a lot of > >strings on them), however, these are not for FC4, are they? > > > >/Josep > > > > From bgroh at redhat.com Mon May 16 22:24:43 2005 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:24:43 +1000 Subject: desc and summary In-Reply-To: <20050516111301.GA20634@rap.rap.dk> References: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <4287B7A5.8020906@redhat.com> <20050516111301.GA20634@rap.rap.dk> Message-ID: <42891DAB.6090106@redhat.com> Keld J?rn Simonsen wrote: >Hej! > >Where in the cvs tree will these new modules be placed? >Somewhere in the specspo tree, or in their own directory? > > Within specspo, most likely two sub-directories 'summary' and 'desc', as is currently. >Will there be an initial language vesion generated by redhat? I assume >that many strings can be copied from the current dist file. > > That's the plan. The updates seem to work fine, though there has only been one change (to summary.pot) since the process went live. It might be good to talk about a good date for the move. >And what are these strings used for, anyway? Which programs use them? > > These are the summaries and descriptions of the packages in the distribution. Something you'd see if you, for example, did a `rpm -qi `. We thought we'd split summaries and descriptions, to make the files a little smaller, and allow to prioritize between the two. Regards, Bernd From bgroh at redhat.com Mon May 16 23:16:35 2005 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:16:35 +1000 Subject: desc and summary In-Reply-To: <1116274080.6347.10.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> References: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <4287B7A5.8020906@redhat.com> <1116274080.6347.10.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> Message-ID: <428929D3.6000104@redhat.com> Josep, Josep Puigdemont wrote: >Hi Bernd! > >El dl 16 de 05 del 2005 a les 06:57 +1000, en/na Bernd Groh va escriure: > > >>Hi Josep, >> >>please ignore desc and summary for now. >> >> > >Now that's relieving :) > >Whenever this is ready and specspo disapears, could you please keep the >same maintainer for summary and desc as it was for specspo? (Sarah, >maybe?) > > I'll try to remember it. :) Cheers, Bernd >Thanks! > >Nice work! > >/Josep > > > >>I'm currently in the process of re-organizing specspo, which includes, >>as Ronny has noted, a split of dist.pot into desc.pot and summary.pot. >>As of yet, desc.pot and summary.pot are not to be translated, and the >>translations of dist.pot won't yet be moved. I'm currently doing a live >>testing of the new toolchain keeping the specspo pot up to date at all >>times (desc and summary, that is, dist is still the current module, but >>will soon be replaced by desc and summary), which includes an automatic >>update of desc.pot and summary.pot. If everything is stable, we'll pick >>a date on which we move all translations to the new modules and let dist >>die. From then on forward, the specspo pot modules will be kept up to >>date, and the latest translations will make it into the package. >> >>Cheers, >>Bernd >> >> >>Josep Puigdemont wrote: >> >> >> >>>Hej! >>> >>>I've seen that two new modules are to be translated (with quite a lot of >>>strings on them), however, these are not for FC4, are they? >>> >>>/Josep >>> >>> >>> >>> > > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > From goeran at uddeborg.se Tue May 17 09:01:55 2005 From: goeran at uddeborg.se (=?iso-8859-1?q?G=F6ran_Uddeborg?=) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:01:55 +0200 Subject: desc and summary In-Reply-To: <42891DAB.6090106@redhat.com> References: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <4287B7A5.8020906@redhat.com> <20050516111301.GA20634@rap.rap.dk> <42891DAB.6090106@redhat.com> Message-ID: <17033.45827.786423.903529@mimmi.uddeborg.se> Bernd Groh writes: > We thought we'd split summaries and descriptions, to make the files a > little smaller, and allow to prioritize between the two. There are points in that. And I want to encourage any attempts to bring these translations alive again. But separating description and summary has one disadvantage: consistency. When I do the translation, I try to keep these two messages fit together. In the current dist file it's very easy; they typically come immediately after each other. The dist package IS very large, I'm very well aware of that. But maybe splitting it in this way is not ideal. I don't know what the infrastructure you are building would allow. But if possible, it might be better to divide by group, or maybe just alphabetically by package name. Do you other specspo/dist/summary/description translators agree with me? From xavi.conde at gmail.com Tue May 17 10:12:22 2005 From: xavi.conde at gmail.com (Xavier Conde Rueda) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:12:22 +0200 Subject: desc and summary In-Reply-To: <17033.45827.786423.903529@mimmi.uddeborg.se> References: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <4287B7A5.8020906@redhat.com> <20050516111301.GA20634@rap.rap.dk> <42891DAB.6090106@redhat.com> <17033.45827.786423.903529@mimmi.uddeborg.se> Message-ID: <5eb2c922050517031221e5d65b@mail.gmail.com> First of all, hello everyone! My name is Xavier and I'm working on the Catalan team with Josep. We've felt somewhat _lazy_ when translating specspo, it has been a common issue in our team. Maybe it would be better to separate GNOME and KDE's summaries and descriptions, GNU and X's, and the rest of them to be considered as EXTRAS. I'll priorize the two firsts. 2005/5/17, G?ran Uddeborg : > Bernd Groh writes: > > We thought we'd split summaries and descriptions, to make the files a > > little smaller, and allow to prioritize between the two. > > There are points in that. And I want to encourage any attempts to > bring these translations alive again. > > But separating description and summary has one disadvantage: > consistency. When I do the translation, I try to keep these two > messages fit together. In the current dist file it's very easy; they > typically come immediately after each other. > > The dist package IS very large, I'm very well aware of that. But > maybe splitting it in this way is not ideal. I don't know what the > infrastructure you are building would allow. But if possible, it > might be better to divide by group, or maybe just alphabetically by > package name. > > Do you other specspo/dist/summary/description translators agree with > me? > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > From bgroh at redhat.com Tue May 17 20:49:40 2005 From: bgroh at redhat.com (Bernd Groh) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 06:49:40 +1000 Subject: desc and summary In-Reply-To: <5eb2c922050517031221e5d65b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <4287B7A5.8020906@redhat.com> <20050516111301.GA20634@rap.rap.dk> <42891DAB.6090106@redhat.com> <17033.45827.786423.903529@mimmi.uddeborg.se> <5eb2c922050517031221e5d65b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <428A58E4.10408@redhat.com> There is a lot of logic in that, and I did consider it, but I decided against it, because it becomes a little too difficult to manage wrt how things are currently. Regarding the split of summaries and descriptions, at one stage, we even considered removing all descriptions completely, and to keep summaries only. That's why I decided to make the descriptions a second pot. If we'd attempt any further division, bringing specspo to live again, would take a whole lot longer again. For now, I'd really prefer to keep it as it is, summary.pot and desc.pot, and maybe later down the track, look into splitting specspo according to package groups. Thanks, Bernd Xavier Conde Rueda wrote: >First of all, hello everyone! My name is Xavier and I'm working on the >Catalan team with Josep. We've felt somewhat _lazy_ when translating >specspo, it has been a common issue in our team. > >Maybe it would be better to separate GNOME and KDE's summaries and >descriptions, GNU and X's, and the rest of them to be considered as >EXTRAS. I'll priorize the two firsts. > >2005/5/17, G?ran Uddeborg : > > >>Bernd Groh writes: >> >> >>>We thought we'd split summaries and descriptions, to make the files a >>>little smaller, and allow to prioritize between the two. >>> >>> >>There are points in that. And I want to encourage any attempts to >>bring these translations alive again. >> >>But separating description and summary has one disadvantage: >>consistency. When I do the translation, I try to keep these two >>messages fit together. In the current dist file it's very easy; they >>typically come immediately after each other. >> >>The dist package IS very large, I'm very well aware of that. But >>maybe splitting it in this way is not ideal. I don't know what the >>infrastructure you are building would allow. But if possible, it >>might be better to divide by group, or maybe just alphabetically by >>package name. >> >>Do you other specspo/dist/summary/description translators agree with >>me? >> >>-- >>Fedora-trans-list mailing list >>Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list >> >> >> > >-- >Fedora-trans-list mailing list >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > From sarahs at redhat.com Wed May 18 05:36:32 2005 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:36:32 +1000 Subject: system-config-bind Message-ID: <1116394592.5035.122.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Hi, The old bindconf package is replaced by the new system-config-bind package. I have merged all existing translation into the new package and added this to translate module. There are two ways to get the files from cvs: a. do a fresh check out of "translate" module. b. cd to your existing translate module, issue rm -rf bindconf/ cvs co -d system-config-bind system-config-bind/devel/system-config-bind-4.0.0/po Cheers, Sarah From xavi.conde at gmail.com Wed May 18 08:14:23 2005 From: xavi.conde at gmail.com (Xavier Conde Rueda) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 10:14:23 +0200 Subject: desc and summary In-Reply-To: <428A58E4.10408@redhat.com> References: <1116145352.7067.1.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <4287B7A5.8020906@redhat.com> <20050516111301.GA20634@rap.rap.dk> <42891DAB.6090106@redhat.com> <17033.45827.786423.903529@mimmi.uddeborg.se> <5eb2c922050517031221e5d65b@mail.gmail.com> <428A58E4.10408@redhat.com> Message-ID: <5eb2c92205051801143edb7c1e@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, however, I think translation teams could follow this approach as "de facto", instead of translating alphabetically. With so much strings to work on, we should priorize on KDE's and GNOME's. So there is no need to "repackage" a "gnome-specspo.pot" and a "kde-specspo.pot" - just follow this approach and translate first those strings. Regards, --Xavi 2005/5/17, Bernd Groh : > There is a lot of logic in that, and I did consider it, but I decided > against it, because it becomes a little too difficult to manage wrt how > things are currently. Regarding the split of summaries and descriptions, > at one stage, we even considered removing all descriptions completely, > and to keep summaries only. That's why I decided to make the > descriptions a second pot. If we'd attempt any further division, > bringing specspo to live again, would take a whole lot longer again. For > now, I'd really prefer to keep it as it is, summary.pot and desc.pot, > and maybe later down the track, look into splitting specspo according to > package groups. > > Thanks, > Bernd > > > Xavier Conde Rueda wrote: > > >First of all, hello everyone! My name is Xavier and I'm working on the > >Catalan team with Josep. We've felt somewhat _lazy_ when translating > >specspo, it has been a common issue in our team. > > > >Maybe it would be better to separate GNOME and KDE's summaries and > >descriptions, GNU and X's, and the rest of them to be considered as > >EXTRAS. I'll priorize the two firsts. > > > >2005/5/17, G?ran Uddeborg : > > > > > >>Bernd Groh writes: > >> > >> > >>>We thought we'd split summaries and descriptions, to make the files a > >>>little smaller, and allow to prioritize between the two. > >>> > >>> > >>There are points in that. And I want to encourage any attempts to > >>bring these translations alive again. > >> > >>But separating description and summary has one disadvantage: > >>consistency. When I do the translation, I try to keep these two > >>messages fit together. In the current dist file it's very easy; they > >>typically come immediately after each other. > >> > >>The dist package IS very large, I'm very well aware of that. But > >>maybe splitting it in this way is not ideal. I don't know what the > >>infrastructure you are building would allow. But if possible, it > >>might be better to divide by group, or maybe just alphabetically by > >>package name. > >> > >>Do you other specspo/dist/summary/description translators agree with > >>me? > >> > >>-- > >>Fedora-trans-list mailing list > >>Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > >>http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > >> > >> > >> > > > >-- > >Fedora-trans-list mailing list > >Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > >http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > > > > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > From josep.puigdemont at gmail.com Wed May 18 20:04:32 2005 From: josep.puigdemont at gmail.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 22:04:32 +0200 Subject: system-config-bind In-Reply-To: <1116394592.5035.122.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1116394592.5035.122.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1116446672.6552.6.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> El dc 18 de 05 del 2005 a les 15:36 +1000, en/na Sarah Wang va escriure: > Hi, > > The old bindconf package is replaced by the new system-config-bind > package. I have merged all existing translation into the new package and > added this to translate module. This package (as it is now) is not going into FC4, is it? Could you keep the same maintainership as it was for bindconf, please? Thanks! > There are two ways to get the files from > cvs: > > a. do a fresh check out of "translate" module. > b. cd to your existing translate module, issue > rm -rf bindconf/ > cvs co -d system-config-bind > system-config-bind/devel/system-config-bind-4.0.0/po > > Cheers, > Sarah /Josep From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Wed May 18 22:43:44 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 00:43:44 +0200 Subject: system-config-bind In-Reply-To: <1116446672.6552.6.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> References: <1116394592.5035.122.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1116446672.6552.6.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> Message-ID: <200505190043.44522.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Wednesday 18 May 2005 22:04, Josep Puigdemont wrote: > El dc 18 de 05 del 2005 a les 15:36 +1000, en/na Sarah Wang va escriure: > > Hi, > > > > The old bindconf package is replaced by the new system-config-bind > > package. I have merged all existing translation into the new package and > > added this to translate module. > > This package (as it is now) is not going into FC4, is it? is it already available as an update for FC3, so I think it will definitely be in FC4 -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From tombo at adamantio.net Thu May 19 04:46:33 2005 From: tombo at adamantio.net (Francesco Tombolini) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 06:46:33 +0200 Subject: system-config-bind In-Reply-To: <1116394592.5035.122.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> References: <1116394592.5035.122.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1116477994.5136.3.camel@grafica.3dwebzone.org> Hallo Sara, I try do deposit the it.po, but I got this message... ... cvs [server aborted]: could not open lock file `/usr/local/CVS/system- config-bind/devel/system-config-bind-4.0.0/po/,it.po,': Permission denied ... the job is already assigned to me from the web interface. What can I do? Il giorno mer, 18-05-2005 alle 15:36 +1000, Sarah Wang ha scritto: > Hi, > > The old bindconf package is replaced by the new system-config-bind > package. I have merged all existing translation into the new package and > added this to translate module. There are two ways to get the files from > cvs: > > a. do a fresh check out of "translate" module. > b. cd to your existing translate module, issue > rm -rf bindconf/ > cvs co -d system-config-bind > system-config-bind/devel/system-config-bind-4.0.0/po > > Cheers, > Sarah > > -- > Fedora-trans-list mailing list > Fedora-trans-list at redhat.com > http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-trans-list > > -- Francesco Tombolini From josep.puigdemont at gmail.com Thu May 19 11:47:24 2005 From: josep.puigdemont at gmail.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 13:47:24 +0200 Subject: system-config-bind In-Reply-To: <200505190043.44522.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <1116394592.5035.122.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1116446672.6552.6.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <200505190043.44522.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: Hi, On 5/19/05, Ronny Buchmann wrote: > On Wednesday 18 May 2005 22:04, Josep Puigdemont wrote: > > El dc 18 de 05 del 2005 a les 15:36 +1000, en/na Sarah Wang va escriure: > > > Hi, > > > > > > The old bindconf package is replaced by the new system-config-bind > > > package. I have merged all existing translation into the new package and > > > added this to translate module. > > > > This package (as it is now) is not going into FC4, is it? > is it already available as an update for FC3, so I think it will definitely be > in FC4 > Mmm, I think I don't quite guet the schedule, then: http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/schedule/ Do we have "string freezes" or not? When? What does "translation deadline" mean? What does "translation build freeze" mean? Could we please sort this out? (we could add the answers to the translation FAQ, or a note on the schedule's page, maybe?) I think we should reorganize the Fedora translation project. /Josep From sarahs at redhat.com Thu May 19 12:13:26 2005 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:13:26 +1000 Subject: system-config-bind In-Reply-To: References: <1116394592.5035.122.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1116446672.6552.6.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <200505190043.44522.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <1116504806.2138.37.camel@cpe-203-45-160-132.qld.bigpond.net.au> On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 21:47, Josep Puigdemont wrote: > > Mmm, I think I don't quite guet the schedule, then: > http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/schedule/ > > Do we have "string freezes" or not? When? String freeze means no more string changes from the developers side. > > What does "translation deadline" mean? Translation deadline means no more translation changes from the translators side. > What does "translation build freeze" mean? Translation build freeze means last build with the latest translation included. > > Could we please sort this out? > (we could add the answers to the translation FAQ, or a note on the > schedule's page, maybe?) Good suggestion. I'll see to it. However, we all need to understand that above definition happens in an ideal world, and requires lot of disciplines from all parties :) > > I think we should reorganize the Fedora translation project. You are absolutely right. We do need to raise the i18n awareness of the package maintainers. I'd also like to apologize for getting this package in the translate module so late. I wasn't aware it until recently. It would be nice to have the developers to announce the availability of a new module to this list. Sarah From sarahs at redhat.com Thu May 19 12:17:02 2005 From: sarahs at redhat.com (Sarah Wang) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:17:02 +1000 Subject: adding new translations In-Reply-To: <200505161925.37517.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> References: <200505161925.37517.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> Message-ID: <1116505021.2138.42.camel@cpe-203-45-160-132.qld.bigpond.net.au> On Tue, 2005-05-17 at 03:25, Ronny Buchmann wrote: > Hi > > It seems that only the package maintainer can add new po files, not the > translator himself. > Is there a reason for this and can it be changed? I'm not exactly sure about the reasons. I don't see any harms for translators to add new po files either, but then again I don't manage the repository, really am not the best person to answer this question. Sarah From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Thu May 19 21:19:52 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:19:52 +0200 Subject: system-config-bind In-Reply-To: <1116477994.5136.3.camel@grafica.3dwebzone.org> References: <1116394592.5035.122.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1116477994.5136.3.camel@grafica.3dwebzone.org> Message-ID: <200505192319.53270.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Thursday 19 May 2005 06:46, Francesco Tombolini wrote: > Hallo Sara, I try do deposit the it.po, but I got this message... > > ... > cvs [server aborted]: could not open lock file `/usr/local/CVS/system- > config-bind/devel/system-config-bind-4.0.0/po/,it.po,': Permission > denied same problem for de.po -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From asimons at redhat.com Fri May 20 06:21:16 2005 From: asimons at redhat.com (Audrey Simons) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:21:16 +1000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Probl=E8me_with_system-config-bind?= Message-ID: <428D81DC.9020309@redhat.com> Here's an error message coming up when trying to commit system-config-bind from TortoiseCVS. Does anyone know what the problem might be? Testing fr.po... **** Access allowed: kissifro is in ACL for system-config-bind/devel/system-config-bind-4.0.0/po. Checking in system-config-bind/fr.po; /usr/local/CVS/system-config-bind/devel/system-config-bind-4.0.0/po/fr.po,v <-- fr.po new revision: 1.6; previous revision: 1.5 cvs [server aborted]: could not open lock file `/usr/local/CVS/system-config-bind/devel/system-config-bind-4.0.0/po/,fr.po, ': Permission denied Thanks, Audrey From notting at redhat.com Fri May 20 16:21:23 2005 From: notting at redhat.com (Bill Nottingham) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 12:21:23 -0400 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Probl=E8me?= with system-config-bind In-Reply-To: <428D81DC.9020309@redhat.com> References: <428D81DC.9020309@redhat.com> Message-ID: <20050520162123.GC460@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Audrey Simons (asimons at redhat.com) said: > Here's an error message coming up when trying to commit > system-config-bind from TortoiseCVS. > Does anyone know what the problem might be? Bad perms on the dir & files. We're working on fixing it; the directory structure really should change too. Bill From ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org Fri May 20 16:56:40 2005 From: ronny-vlug at vlugnet.org (Ronny Buchmann) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:56:40 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Probl=E8me_with?= system-config-bind In-Reply-To: <20050520162123.GC460@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> References: <428D81DC.9020309@redhat.com> <20050520162123.GC460@nostromo.devel.redhat.com> Message-ID: <200505201856.40671.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> On Friday 20 May 2005 18:21, Bill Nottingham wrote: > Audrey Simons (asimons at redhat.com) said: > > Here's an error message coming up when trying to commit > > system-config-bind from TortoiseCVS. > > Does anyone know what the problem might be? > > Bad perms on the dir & files. > > We're working on fixing it; the directory structure really should > change too. oh yes, see https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla-old/show_bug.cgi?id=157780 -- http://LinuxWiki.org/RonnyBuchmann From josep.puigdemont at gmail.com Sat May 21 05:56:13 2005 From: josep.puigdemont at gmail.com (Josep Puigdemont) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 07:56:13 +0200 Subject: system-config-bind In-Reply-To: <1116504806.2138.37.camel@cpe-203-45-160-132.qld.bigpond.net.au> References: <1116394592.5035.122.camel@sarah.brisbane.redhat.com> <1116446672.6552.6.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> <200505190043.44522.ronny-vlug@vlugnet.org> <1116504806.2138.37.camel@cpe-203-45-160-132.qld.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <1116654973.7715.36.camel@deimos.baldrick.mine.nu> Hi, El dj 19 de 05 del 2005 a les 22:13 +1000, en/na Sarah Wang va escriure: > On Thu, 2005-05-19 at 21:47, Josep Puigdemont wrote: > > > > Mmm, I think I don't quite guet the schedule, then: > > http://fedora.redhat.com/participate/schedule/ > > > > Do we have "string freezes" or not? When? > > String freeze means no more string changes from the developers side. Question was if we had those or not ;-), but I suppose we have them under "string change deadline", is that correct? (if so, could we rename it to the more common "string freeze"?) Also, just point out that "string change deadline" was on the 30th of March, according to the schedule (approximately a month and a half ago). > > > > What does "translation deadline" mean? > > Translation deadline means no more translation changes from the > translators side. In that case we can not do our job well, because a couple of modules came with strings after the announced "translation deadline": system-config-bind, and recently firstboot. > > > What does "translation build freeze" mean? > > Translation build freeze means last build with the latest translation > included. That happened the 10th of May. system-config-bind came out the 18th, iirc, does this mean that it won't have the new strings translated for FC4? (whenever we manage to translate the 653 new and 108 fuzzy that came up, notice it was 100% translated at "string change deadline"). > > > > > Could we please sort this out? > > (we could add the answers to the translation FAQ, or a note on the > > schedule's page, maybe?) > > Good suggestion. I'll see to it. However, we all need to understand that > above definition happens in an ideal world, and requires lot of > disciplines from all parties :) Specially from the developers side. We (translators) try to commit to the schedule and are in fact bound to it, if the packager is not going to accept more translated strings after the announced "translation deadline" (10th may for FC4), then we are screwed when a module or new strings appear more than a week later (this happened already in FC3, iirc). Also, I am not sure that all packagers rebuild their translations before packaging. > > > > > I think we should reorganize the Fedora translation project. > > You are absolutely right. We do need to raise the i18n awareness of the > package maintainers. Excellent, I agree with you in spreading awareness to developers. If an application is not translated into a language, it becomes _unusable_, and that's like an application crashing at start up, a huge bug (imho). The worse in FC3 was installing it in my language (not English :) and having the web browser in English... > > I'd also like to apologize for getting this package in the translate > module so late. I wasn't aware it until recently. It would be nice to > have the developers to announce the availability of a new module to this > list. No, this is not your fault, I rather think it is the process' fault (as for what FC translations goes). I would personally not allow any changes made to these modules after the announced "string freeze". I know it won't happen, but it would certainly raise awareness among developers ;-) (and users unfortunately) Regards, and I apologize for the whining! /Josep