From bart at bercie23.be Sun Jan 7 08:37:43 2007 From: bart at bercie23.be (Bart Couvreur) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 09:37:43 +0100 Subject: Docs Successes and Needs In-Reply-To: <1168126001.3236.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1168013722.4299.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1168126001.3236.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <45A0B157.3030908@bercie23.be> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Posting this to fedora-trans too, to get some translators input Thomas Canniot schreef: > Le vendredi 05 janvier 2007 ? 11:15 -0500, Paul W. Frields a ?crit : >> I should have started this thread on Wednesday but my home schedule has >> been a bit topsy-turvy of late: >> >> The Docs Project has been invited to participate in the next Fedora >> Project Board meeting. We should be prepared to talk about the >> successes we've had over the past two releases and what remains to be >> done. The way I see it, here are some starter issues. I'd appreciate >> plenty of input, but please keep in mind that the issues should be >> things the Board cares about (e.g. blockers in other subprojects that we >> haven't been able to resolve after repeated attempts, resource needs >> that might require Real Funds -- things we can't provide by ourselves). >> >> Successes: >> 1. Best-in-the-world release notes, provided by the community. >> 2. Growing contributor base, including work on additional entry-level >> to intermediate-level guides. >> 3. Progress toward integrating with the Fedora package universe. >> >> Future Predictions: >> 1. Possible click-thru on Wiki will allow easier contribution without >> all the GPG+SSH+CLA+EditGroup rigamarole >> 2. FUDCon presence will result in major updates to available docs, >> making it easier for new people to learn processes >> >> Outstanding Issues: >> 1. Translation Project disconnect - what do we need here in concrete >> terms? App rewrites and process changes? Red Hat internal group(s) >> originally had ownership of this, yet we've seen no progress in the past >> months... or year(s). > > There are simple things that may be sufficient to help improving > translation. > 1. make it easy to subscribe to the project in itself. It _is_ really a > pain to open that much of account to translate a string. That shouldn't. > 2. do not allow people to commit as they want. New contributors (as well > as every pieces of translation) must be read over by someone more > experienced in the projet. A bit like extras packages are reviewed > before being accepted. This will avoid many mistakes in the > distribution. > 3. better communication between developers and translators. For > example : > a package sees its .pot file updated. That is the responsibility to > check regurlary for this kind of update. But developers could say on the > translation list : i'm going to rebuild the updated software into a RPM > package by (any date) and all translation done before that date will be > included. > > That's all I'd like :) Maybe also checkout the thread[1] on fedora-trans-list from a few weeks ago on this very subject > > >From my point of view, I don't think it could be that indispensable to > have the same webapp than Launchpad offers for translation, that is, > translation directly from the web browser. I personally don't trust any > web browser, their stability depending on the websites you are on. As far as I know Launchpad will never be an option, as it's closed source. Lately I've been wanting to look into Pootle[1], which offers some similar functionality and is written in Python. Maybe all this stuff on L10N should have it's own separate meeting with the Board, as it's such a big change/challenge to get this right. I can think of some people who would like to join that meeting then, and we should get people from Docs and Infrastructure in that meeting as well (just my 2 ct). Greetings, Bart [1]: http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2006-November/msg00035.html [2]: http://translate.sourceforge.net/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFoLFWrbZrKtk/D5MRArMRAJ9e8wDZRv3kIrI6uGjsdjVVSSsNQACgn2Lw /AHvW6wlqCaaBzWVYxy42s8= =vqmR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From thomas.canniot at laposte.net Sun Jan 7 09:00:45 2007 From: thomas.canniot at laposte.net (Thomas Canniot) Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 10:00:45 +0100 Subject: Processes in the L10N team In-Reply-To: <45698E73.5070300@bercie23.be> References: <1164460522.5043.4.camel@axp2600> <45685F93.5040604@redhat.com> <1164470906.3328.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45689A3C.7090106@glezos.com> <45698E73.5070300@bercie23.be> Message-ID: <1168160446.28153.3.camel@localhost.localdomain> Le dimanche 26 novembre 2006 ? 13:54 +0100, Bart Couvreur a ?crit : > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Dimitris Glezos schreef: > > (removed -devel-list since this is a -trans-list issue) > > > > > > O/H Thomas Canniot ??????: > >> Le dimanche 26 novembre 2006 ? 01:21 +1000, Chester Cheng a ?crit : > >>> Hi Igor, > >>> > >>> The .pot file hasn't been prepared by the author. > >>> It will be released soon and we can make po files then. > >> I think there is translation related problems here. > >> > >> Why hasn't it been made BEFORE FC6 ? > >> Why hasn't it be done at the same time than developing desktop-effects ? > >> Why translation is always seen as second class interest by developers ? > >> Why most translators seem to accept this second class idea ? > >> Why bugzilla bug reports must be opened to force a developer to add > >> translations ? > >> > >> Question I don't have any answer for ... yet ? > > > > Thomas, > > > > I agree we need to fix our l10n process. I've spoken to some people and the > > presence of the gap is pretty much known. How can we fix it then? > > > > Here are some first ideas: > > > > 1. Start by documenting the need for attention to this matter, for > example by > > getting some numbers of the non-english users (e.g. fedora-brazil is HUGE) > > > > 2. List irritations the translators have stated in the past. One > example is > > releases not having up-to-date translations in packages [1]. > > > > 3. Start having IRC meetings to discuss things, our progress and get > people to > > hang out on the IRC channel more often. > > > > 4. Think about electing a Steering committee for the team; check out the > > DocsProject voting proposal: > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Policy/FDSCoElections > > > > 5. Start writing guidelines for developers and slowly try to make > them happen. > > A steering committee can help with this by having open communication > channels. > > > > 6. Open up a wiki page holding links to common/known problems, a bug > tracker > > for translation bugs (is there one?) and start pushing release-blocker > bugs for > > important issues. > > > > 7. Get the team closer to the Docs project; this team does a *great* > job and > > the two teams have a lot in common and could share experience, tools etc. > > > > > > The L10N project shouts "I need resurrection" with all it's strength. > So, to > > have something to hold onto, I copied the above points here: > > > > http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Tasks > > > > Ideas, comments, suggestions? > > > > -d > > > > > > [1]: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=207095 > > > Nice list Dimitris, I totally agree. > > I would like to add one more thing: the biggest problem (IMHO) is the > fact that the L10N-project is way outside the Fedora devel-space > (cvs-wise). Lots of package maintainers know about our efforts here, > but just don't see it, because of the fact that they have to use two > cvs-accounts / trees. I know the plan is to get ourselves on > cvs.fp.org and maybe we should just go for it. So what do we want when > we do the migration?? > > An idea: > - -> get hooked up in the Fedora Account System, now people on l10n and > docs need 2 accounts to get work done, cut it down to 1 > - -> get a seperate cvsroot on cvs.fp.org with only .po / .pot -files. > - -> try to get into Jesse Keating's pungi, for l10n-inclusion (not so > sure if this is possible, if not just a hook in the build system) > - -> set up an sort of sponsor-managed cvs or dir in the cvsroot (as > extras, docs) so only language maintainers can commit (this may mean a > lot of pain for the maintainer, but gives more control) and those > files get into the build system And this definitely improves the quality of the translated string. > - -> (try to) migrate the web-interface and maybe add an > online-translation system to it, so we create a low barrier to the > project and thus more contributors + QA I completely aggree, a bit late, with Bart. >From my point of view, I don't think it could be that indispensable to have the same kind of webapp than Launchpad offers for translation, that is,translation directly from the web browser. I personally don't trust any web browser, their stability depending on the websites you are on. > - -> hook up a commit-mailinglist (or maybe just this one??) It would be great as well, so as to check for updates. > - -> .... > > Maybe we could call for a meeting with Fedora Infrastructure and Docs > when this list is ready and get this "issue" off our back :) > > Bart -- Thomas Canniot http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ThomasCanniot From stickster at gmail.com Mon Jan 8 13:13:03 2007 From: stickster at gmail.com (Paul W. Frields) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 08:13:03 -0500 Subject: Docs Successes and Needs In-Reply-To: <45A0B157.3030908@bercie23.be> References: <1168013722.4299.58.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1168126001.3236.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> <45A0B157.3030908@bercie23.be> Message-ID: <1168261983.20820.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2007-01-07 at 09:37 +0100, Bart Couvreur wrote: > Maybe all this stuff on L10N should have it's own separate meeting > with the Board, as it's such a big change/challenge to get this right. > I can think of some people who would like to join that meeting then, > and we should get people from Docs and Infrastructure in that meeting > as well (just my 2 ct). Translation/L10N will get its own slot as well, fear not. This first meeting just happens to be Docs and since we're tied up in some of the Translation/L10N issues, we'll likely put our US $0.02 in. -- Paul W. Frields, RHCE http://paul.frields.org/ gpg fingerprint: 3DA6 A0AC 6D58 FEC4 0233 5906 ACDB C937 BD11 3717 Fedora Project Board: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board Fedora Docs Project: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From visez.trance at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 15:52:57 2007 From: visez.trance at gmail.com (Mircea Daniel) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:52:57 +0200 Subject: Fedora Installation Language Message-ID: <200701171752.57346.daniel@reywind.tranceaddict> Hello, what file(s) do i have to translate in order to have my language (romanian) available during the installation process ? Best regards, Mircea Daniel From dimitris at glezos.com Wed Jan 17 16:43:02 2007 From: dimitris at glezos.com (Dimitris Glezos) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:43:02 +0000 Subject: Fedora Installation Language In-Reply-To: <200701171752.57346.daniel@reywind.tranceaddict> References: <200701171752.57346.daniel@reywind.tranceaddict> Message-ID: <45AE5216.3020800@glezos.com> O/H Mircea Daniel ??????: > Hello, > what file(s) do i have to translate in order to have my language (romanian) > available during the installation process ? Hi Mircea, the installer is "anaconda" and after the installation "firstboot" is run for the user to make some more choices. -d -- Dimitris Glezos Jabber ID: glezos at jabber.org, GPG: 0xA5A04C3B http://dimitris.glezos.com/ "He who gives up functionality for ease of use loses both and deserves neither." (Anonymous) -- From aalam at redhat.com Wed Jan 17 17:38:28 2007 From: aalam at redhat.com (A S Alam) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 23:08:28 +0530 Subject: Fedora Installation Language In-Reply-To: <200701171752.57346.daniel@reywind.tranceaddict> References: <200701171752.57346.daniel@reywind.tranceaddict> Message-ID: <45AE5F14.2050407@redhat.com> Mircea Daniel ?? ?????: > Hello, > what file(s) do i have to translate in order to have my language (romanian) > available during the installation process ? > Essentail Modules are mention at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/GUI More information regarding translation is available at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/ regards -- A S Alam timezone: GMT+5:30 join us at #fedora-l10n (freenode) "Either find a way or make one"i From kwade at redhat.com Fri Jan 19 08:49:08 2007 From: kwade at redhat.com (Karsten Wade) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 00:49:08 -0800 Subject: Docs Successes and Needs In-Reply-To: <200701171611.03382.pgampe@redhat.com> References: <200701171611.03382.pgampe@redhat.com> Message-ID: <1169196548.4954.260.camel@erato.phig.org> Sorry about the delay in responding. Paul Frields and I collaborated tonight on a response, and I'll be glad to bring you up to speed. On Wed, 2007-01-17 at 16:11 -0500, Paul Gampe wrote: Paul W. Frields wrote: > > Outstanding Issues: > > 1. Translation Project disconnect - what do we need here in concrete > > terms? > > I had been approached a few times regarding this topic, but as yet do not > know exactly what is required. Is this project scoped somewhere I can > reference? We describe some of the needs below. They've also been voiced in some recent fedora-trans-list threads by L10n Project members, but no replies have been seen from the L10n leadership. The community created a Wiki page some time ago to flesh this out.[1] The goal is to create a way in which volunteer translators can work more fluidly with Fedora developers (where Fedora is the upstream source) and with documentation. A continuing problem is that neither the Documentation team nor the L10n team is sure what, exactly, they need. But to figure out the exact needs is going to require input from and discussion with the Red Hat teams involved. That needs to happen in community space. > > App rewrites and process changes? Red Hat internal group(s) > > originally had ownership of this, yet we've seen no progress in the past > > months... or year(s). > > The Red Hat internal group you are referring to here was approached to hand > over the code to the translation web applications which was done some time > ago. I am not sure what has happened since then, but depending on the > scope I may be able to help. Yes, that group said then they had no time to work on Fedora L10n infrastructure. Since Fedora Infrastructure now has resources where RH and non-RH community can collaborate, perhaps L10n is in a better position to seed this upstream work. Things needed: * CVS on elvis.r.c merged over to cvs.fedoraproject.org, including account migration and CLA completion by users (non-trivial). * Port existing Perl Web app to Python so it can be supported and maintained by the community. * Renewed vigorous and committed leadership from Translation Project leaders inside Red Hat, including embracing the Fedora leadership model.[2] > > 2. Content from RH, licensed under our terms (OPL w/no options). > > Was there a thread discussing the selection of this license? This was resolved internally at Red Hat between Mark Webbink and Content Services. It was done to align RHEL docs to be upstream/downstream of content from Fedora, so they both needed the same license[3]. = = = [1] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N [2] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DefiningProjects#FedoraProjects [3] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Licensing/FAQ#RHELDocsLicense -- Karsten Wade, RHCE, 108 Editor ^ Fedora Documentation Project Sr. Developer Relations Mgr. | fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject quaid.108.redhat.com | gpg key: AD0E0C41 ////////////////////////////////// \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From aalam at redhat.com Thu Jan 25 16:48:48 2007 From: aalam at redhat.com (A S Alam) Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 22:18:48 +0530 Subject: Docs Successes and Needs In-Reply-To: <200701251049.46632.pgampe@redhat.com> References: <200701171611.03382.pgampe@redhat.com> <1169196548.4954.260.camel@erato.phig.org> <200701251049.46632.pgampe@redhat.com> Message-ID: <45B8DF70.30306@redhat.com> Paul Gampe ?? ?????: > On Friday 19 January 2007 03:49, Karsten Wade wrote: >> Sorry about the delay in responding. Paul Frields and I collaborated >> tonight on a response, and I'll be glad to bring you up to speed. > > Same here ;) > >> We describe some of the needs below. They've also been voiced in some >> recent fedora-trans-list threads by L10n Project members, but no replies >> have been seen from the L10n leadership. > > Sorry to ask, but could you point me at a url for the thread and I'll follow > up. > these 3 are at my radar 25 Nov 2006 https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2006-November/msg00021.html https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2006-November/msg00035.html 1 Dec 2006 https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-trans-list/2006-December/msg00000.html >> The community created a Wiki >> page some time ago to flesh this out.[1] > > Do you mean this page? [1] > > seems taking about this http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/L10N/Tasks thanks -- A S Alam timezone: GMT+5:30 join us at #fedora-l10n (freenode) "Either find a way or make one"i