Meeting Log 2008-04-30

[Jonathan Roberts]

Hey all,

The minutes for the meeting can be found at:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Meetings/2008-04-30

And the matrix so we can find a time for next week's meeting is at:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Meetings/Matrix

Please fill it in :)

I realised half-way through the minutes that I probably should have
used the agenda to inform the headings - promise next week's will be a
little better though (p.s. I'll take any tips I can get, never minuted
before!)

And finally, the IRC log is below. If someone could convert it to html
for me and put it on the wiki minutes that'd be awesome - I can't get
to irc2html myself just now.

Best wishes,

Jon

-------------------------------

(07:56:59 PM) tw2113: MichaelBeckwith
(07:57:00 PM) JonRob: JonRob here
(07:57:04 PM) ricky: RickyZhou
(07:57:08 PM) spevack: MaxSpevack
(07:57:16 PM) giarc_w: CraigThomas
(07:57:20 PM) spevack: mmcgrath: ping
(07:57:50 PM) juank_prada: JuanCamiloPrada
(07:57:55 PM) ivazquez: IgnacioVazquezAbrams
(07:58:33 PM) spevack: I'm gonna wait a minute or two for mmcgrath,
since it's important that he be here also.  Then we'll get started.
(07:58:47 PM) epkphoto [n=epkphoto at 129.21.233.244] entered the room.
(07:58:51 PM) ricky: glezos: Are you around?
(07:58:56 PM) spevack: thank you all for being here
(07:58:58 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: pong
(07:59:08 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: thank _you_
(07:59:19 PM) spevack: mmcgrath: didn't want to start without you
(07:59:19 PM) ***ricky hopes that glezos will be able to help with
some l10n decisions :-)
(07:59:19 PM) glezos: ricky: I'm here
(07:59:20 PM) spevack: ok.  so let's roll...
(07:59:22 PM) ricky: Ah, great.
(07:59:25 PM) glezos: DimitrisGlezo
(07:59:26 PM) glezos: s
(07:59:30 PM) spevack: TOPIC 1: Current status of things, as related
to the websites team and F9
(07:59:35 PM) spevack: i'll start with a few words
(08:00:07 PM) spevack: I've been a *customer* of the Fedoraw Websites
team for a while, but never really had too much insight into how it
all happens myself.  It always Just Happens, so let's talk about it,
and lift the curtain from my eyes a bit too.
(08:00:18 PM) spevack: What are the things that are coming together here for F9?
(08:00:27 PM) spevack: I know we update the content on the non-wiki pages.
(08:00:29 PM) spevack: what else?
(08:00:35 PM) spevack: who's got the knowledge here to tell me what's going on
(08:00:48 PM) mmcgrath: well I do.
(08:01:02 PM) mmcgrath: so basically some things just happen (mostly
thanks to ricky's self direction)
(08:01:21 PM) mmcgrath: but there's lots of stuff that people want to
have happen and its just not come together as a team yet.
(08:01:26 PM) mmcgrath: So things for F9 are coming along.
(08:01:35 PM) mmcgrath: I'm not sure if stuff is frozen for the
translations team yet.
(08:02:05 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: are you wanting to know about actual
workflow?  Or just a higher level view?
(08:02:15 PM) spevack: mmcgrath: i want to talk about a few things.
(08:02:35 PM) spevack: first, i want to talk specifically about F9
website content, and make sure that we're on target with whatever is
already in the pipeline
(08:02:44 PM) spevack: then, i want to raise the discussion up a level
(08:02:46 PM) mmcgrath: ah, so there's really 3 aspects to our websites.
(08:03:05 PM) mmcgrath: at the base layer is the infrastructure team.
The proxy servers, caching ,etc.
(08:03:08 PM) spevack: and understand the general processes we go
through during non-release time, and then as we coordinate the
websites around a release.
(08:03:23 PM) spevack: right
(08:03:29 PM) mmcgrath: Right above that is the code that creates our
websites (typically a mix of infrastructure people and websites) and
above that is the look and feel of the site.  Which is typically the
websites team.
(08:03:34 PM) jmbuser [n=jmbuser at 195.229.24.83] entered the room.
(08:03:43 PM) spevack: right.
(08:03:47 PM) mmcgrath: So for this release I've requested a list of
all the links we're going to give out in press releases and stuff.
(08:03:55 PM) ricky: spevack: The process during non-release doesn't
exist, and part of that is that we don't have a great process to
handle l10n yet.
(08:03:57 PM) mmcgrath: I'll be making sure those are cached in
memory.  But thats not really "website stuff"
(08:04:07 PM) ricky: So as I mentioned, I'm always afraid that making
a single change will bring translations out of sync.
(08:04:10 PM) spevack: it's the interface of infrastructure and web.
(08:04:44 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: glezos: do we have a deadline for when
we need to string freeze the website?
(08:04:44 PM) ivazquez: The non-release process is "someone suggests a
change and someone else implements it".
(08:04:44 PM) spevack: ok, so still mmcgrath, that's one need that you
have.  has that list been provided to you?
(08:04:47 PM) ivazquez: It's duct tape and chewing gum.
(08:04:49 PM) glezos: ricky: I think it's better to have correct
information on the website rather than having 100% translations of
faulty information.
(08:04:56 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: there's actually a meeting about it
later this week with releng, marketing, etc.
(08:05:09 PM) spevack: ok.
(08:05:21 PM) spevack: So item 1 -- the list of links and content that
are most important, and making sure we can serve those up under heavy
traffic.
(08:05:24 PM) glezos: mmcgrath: looking
(08:05:30 PM) ricky: glezos: The way I see it, it's not so much about
faulty information as it is about new information
(08:05:41 PM) glezos: mmcgrath: juding by the content volume I'd say
4-5 days translation period.
(08:05:56 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: and really thats not a websites
concern.  They may put some of that content up, and design what it
looks like but its more releng and marketing to decide what canonical
links to give out.
(08:06:26 PM) spevack: mmcgrath: fair enough... so let's assume for a
moment, from the perspective of this meeting, that the list exists.
(08:06:28 PM) mmcgrath: just because its releng and marketing that
actually do the releases.
(08:06:30 PM) mmcgrath: <nod>
(08:06:33 PM) spevack: What *is* important to Websites Team is the
*content* on those pages.
(08:06:37 PM) glezos: ricky: if it's a whole page or sections it's
less of a problem than little changes here and there. So the whole
website will look ok except one page, which will gradually get more
translations.
(08:06:47 PM) mmcgrath: AFAIK the F9 content is in good shape, its
just not that different from the F8 content.
(08:07:14 PM) spevack: I assume we will be updating the get-fedora and
home pages.
(08:07:16 PM) mmcgrath: numbers and code names change.
(08:07:16 PM) mmcgrath: <nod>
(08:07:16 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: do we have the F9 site up somewhere to
look at right now?
(08:07:20 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: http://publictest10.fedoraproject.org/
(08:07:31 PM) giarc_w: we have verify page we want up for f9 as well
(lots or requests for that post f8 launch)
(08:07:36 PM) ricky: Still need to add jigdo links on get-fedora.
(08:07:39 PM) giarc_w: *of
(08:07:51 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: thanks.
(08:07:56 PM) spevack: ok... so I ask all of you now... are there any
big things needed for the immediate release of F9 that we need to
handle in this meeting, or shall we move to the next topic?
(08:08:13 PM) ricky: glezos: That's probably the right priority to go
with, but a set process would definitely make it easier on us :)
(08:08:21 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: AFAIK, not for F9
(08:08:54 PM) tw2113: screenshots?
(08:08:56 PM) mmcgrath: no big things anyway
(08:08:56 PM) tw2113: i noticed we still have the old ones
(08:08:56 PM) mmcgrath: tw2113: ahh, good catch.
(08:08:56 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: who provided those last time?
(08:08:56 PM) ricky: tw2113: Good point, those were kind of
last-minute for F8.  Is most of the final artwork in rawhide yet?
(08:08:56 PM) ivazquez: It is.
(08:09:01 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: I did, day of the release, I think :)
(08:09:03 PM) tw2113: i believe all the final artwork is in
(08:09:19 PM) ***tw2113 has his desktop screenshot up on the site
(08:09:21 PM) spevack: ok, so if the world isn't burning down for F9,
then I think we can trust that the websites content for this release
is pretty much good to go, and move the conversation to a larger
topic.
(08:09:21 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: hah, yeah lets make sure to get those
ahead of time.
(08:09:21 PM) jmbuser left the room ("Leaving").
(08:09:39 PM) ***ivazquez was there when halfline requested the wave
artwork for inclusion
(08:09:41 PM) tw2113: i'll provide a default desktop screenshot again
if you want
(08:09:56 PM) spevack: I'm going to say what I think is important, and
then I'd like some of you guys to tell me what you think is important.
(08:10:07 PM) spevack: From my point of view, overall, the Fedora
Websites team needs to do a few things:
(08:10:12 PM) ricky: Cool, then who should I contact about getting
those?  I should still remember the method that I used (not Xnest, but
Xephyr)
(08:10:44 PM) tw2113: i'll work with you on it tonight and tomorrow ricky
(08:10:48 PM) ricky: tw2113: OK, thanks
(08:11:12 PM) spevack: 1) Have new content around the releases
(08:11:51 PM) spevack: 2) Work with artwork and infrastructure to
provide a service to various other parts of fedora
(08:12:02 PM) spevack: 3) take ownership of the layout and look and
feel for *.fedoraproject.org
(08:12:21 PM) spevack: and around all three of those points
(08:12:27 PM) iWolf [n=jft at fedora/iWolf] entered the room.
(08:12:38 PM) spevack: is the question of what workflow and processes
we have, and what workflow and processes we need to help track things,
make things more efficient, etc.
(08:13:01 PM) ***mmcgrath agrees on those 3 points.
(08:13:03 PM) spevack: what do you guys think?  There was a lot of
talk on the mailing list, it seemed, about the larger vision that
Fedora Websites needs to have
(08:13:07 PM) ***spevack will shut up and listen now
(08:13:12 PM) juank_prada: spevack: from all those points its that
comes the whole discussion that leads to this meeting
(08:13:48 PM) tw2113: i'm no exception, but we have a lot of people
throwing ideas around, but no one creating actual visuals of those
ideas
(08:13:51 PM) spevack: ricky: i have a question for you.
(08:13:58 PM) mmcgrath: Right now there's a workflow for making
changes.  But not a workflow for really... accepting what changes get
made.
(08:14:30 PM) giarc_w: right, there is no peer review or 'approval',
changes just in or they don't
(08:14:47 PM) mmcgrath: which is a common problem in Fedora for teams.
 Actual decision making is fuzzy.
(08:15:22 PM) juank_prada: the problem comes when those new ideas are
discarded because of the lack of that review or approval
(08:15:23 PM) ***JonRob brb, it sounds like my wall is collapsing :S
(08:15:31 PM) spevack: one of the things that i like about Fedora
Websites is its speed and flexibility
(08:15:32 PM) tw2113: mentally, i'd really like to get some loose ends
on my side of things tied up, and then actually start actively helping
create on the website team
(08:15:35 PM) spevack: if i want a change made to redhat.com, it takes
me a week.
(08:15:44 PM) juank_prada: then the website hangs for a long time
unchanged with the same content and makes it almost useless
(08:15:45 PM) spevack: if i want a change made to fedoraproject.org,
it is usually done in a few hours.
(08:16:06 PM) tw2113: how many people do we have actually making the
changes spevack ?
(08:16:11 PM) spevack: i don't know
(08:16:11 PM) giarc_w: that speed is nice and important to keep i think
(08:16:31 PM) spevack: whenever i need something done, I ask ricky
(08:16:35 PM) ***mmcgrath looks at how many people can access it.
(08:16:50 PM) ivazquez: I think we have only about 3 people making changes.
(08:16:59 PM) giarc_w: there are a small handful who actually commit
content changes
(08:17:01 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: 38
(08:17:04 PM) ivazquez: Excluding tfx, of course.
(08:17:05 PM) tw2113: this may just be my naivety overall, but the two
people who i know actually making changes are ricky and mmcgrath
(08:17:13 PM) tw2113: well, paul too
(08:17:14 PM) mmcgrath: So all of these people have access to make
changes to the web.
(08:17:16 PM) mmcgrath: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/group/dump/web
(08:17:17 PM) tw2113: just remembered
(08:17:23 PM) ivazquez: And myself.
(08:17:25 PM) ricky: ivazquez: Good point, 37 or 36, then.
(08:17:28 PM) ***mmcgrath tries not to make changes ever... has no
idea what he's doing with css and html :)
(08:17:31 PM) ivazquez: Although not recently.
(08:18:08 PM) spevack: ok, so let me ask a simple question that can be
+1 or -1'd
(08:18:40 PM) spevack: Is one of the priorities of this team to "build
a more formal process around editing content on *.fp.o while also not
losing our flexibitiy to act quickly?"
(08:18:49 PM) ricky: +1
(08:18:51 PM) giarc_w: +1
(08:18:55 PM) juank_prada: +1
(08:18:55 PM) mmcgrath: +1
(08:18:58 PM) glezos: +1
(08:19:00 PM) ivazquez: How formal?
(08:19:05 PM) mmcgrath: just "more"
(08:19:06 PM) spevack: ivazquez: not for me to say
(08:19:15 PM) epkphoto: +1
(08:19:16 PM) ivazquez: +1 then.
(08:19:16 PM) tw2113: 1+
(08:19:21 PM) tw2113: :D
(08:19:21 PM) mmcgrath: something other then just "ricky and ivazquez
sort of do it or they don't"
(08:19:21 PM) giarc_w: right, just more, so we *have* a process
(08:19:21 PM) Rasther: +1
(08:19:27 PM) juank_prada: ivazquez: at least a process because whe lack of one
(08:19:46 PM) giarc_w: nothing too complex, or anything
(08:20:03 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: and there's two parts to that.
(08:20:12 PM) mmcgrath: 1) making changes (you or paul comes in and
says "I need this)
(08:20:14 PM) mmcgrath: and
(08:20:17 PM) mmcgrath: 2) overhauls.
(08:20:35 PM) juank_prada: i agree with mmcgrath
(08:20:38 PM) mmcgrath: and its 2) I think that juank_prada has
something in mind for and we've only done it one other time in the
history of my being here IIRC.
(08:20:51 PM) mmcgrath: and it was when we created the website as a
way to avoid wiki breakdowns.
(08:21:12 PM) mmcgrath: so there was no real process, I think we just
went to some people like mizmo, got something together.  I put some
requirements on it (size wise, etc) and it just went though.
(08:21:20 PM) giarc_w: overhauls seem to involve lots of other teams,
art, marketing and infra so we probably really need process to handle
bopth
(08:21:22 PM) mmcgrath: now though we've been wanting to make all the
websites look the same.
(08:21:47 PM) tw2113: cohesive looks +1
(08:22:04 PM) juank_prada: but we still need to know which one is the
look and feel wer are going to use...
(08:22:13 PM) mmcgrath: we all want the sites to look the same
(there's been a ticket open for a year now) but without the process
its been a non-starter.
(08:22:26 PM) ***spevack is being pulled away for about 2 mins... keep
talking, i'll read backward
(08:22:57 PM) glezos: mmcgrath: I believe we have went a good way
towards that goal so far. I remember our websites a year ago and
everything was completely different than each other.
(08:23:03 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: If we already have know the look, then
I don't think it needs a process - it's just a simple task.
(08:23:56 PM) juank_prada: ricky: the process is still needed in order
to do that overhaul to the website
(08:24:08 PM) mmcgrath: well how do we get the workerbees in to
actually make everything look the same then?
(08:24:14 PM) giarc_w: i would agree with ricky, once we do know, but
how do we decide?
(08:24:19 PM) ricky: juank_prada: I was referring to the theming, not
the overhaul.
(08:24:21 PM) mmcgrath: well here's a question (I'll ask for a +1 or -1)
(08:24:27 PM) juank_prada: ok
(08:24:48 PM) mmcgrath: "We should change the look of the primary
website as what we have now should be changed, even if it is just a
little bit)
(08:24:52 PM) ***spevack reads backwards... sorry
(08:25:16 PM) mmcgrath: so +1 or -1?
(08:25:18 PM) ***giarc_w does not understand the question ?
(08:25:30 PM) ***juank_prada is not sure to understand either
(08:25:32 PM) ivazquez: "Should" is a bit loaded.
(08:25:35 PM) ricky: giarc_w: Should we change the theme on fp.o?
(08:25:43 PM) mmcgrath: So what we have at http://fedoraproject.org/
is whats there.  We've had people propose an overhaul to it.
(08:25:55 PM) mmcgrath: do we want to leave http://fedoraproject.org/
or do we want to change it?
(08:26:08 PM) ivazquez: At least "more" in the previous question had a
single direction. "Should" fuzzes it too much.
(08:26:08 PM) mmcgrath: because as http://fedoraproject.org/ goes, so
goes the rest of our sites.
(08:26:13 PM) ***tw2113 points to the recent Suse website talk
(08:26:19 PM) juank_prada: the thing is an overhaul doesnt really mean
that we need to change the look of the website
(08:26:22 PM) spevack: ok... I have caught up.
(08:26:24 PM) tw2113: the 3 button front page
(08:26:36 PM) juank_prada: and thats the whole idea of CSS thing
(08:26:46 PM) spevack: let me share my perspective.
(08:26:47 PM) ivazquez: A better question is "If we want to change the
site, do we have a definite direction we want to move in?".
(08:26:56 PM) juank_prada: we can pretty much add content to the site
without altering the look of it
(08:27:03 PM) spevack: there are folks here who don't remember the Old
Days of Fedora Website Doom
(08:27:09 PM) ricky: And that's where I start to worry about translations.
(08:27:14 PM) ricky: ^(content)
(08:27:16 PM) spevack: we had fedora.redhat.com (which was never
updated and had horrible content)
(08:27:20 PM) glezos: I'm -1 for overhaul, at least until we have a
thorough study on how they should look. There are some minor fixes I'd
suggest, though, like decreasing the font size a bit in the menu.
(08:27:24 PM) spevack: and we had fedoraproject.org, which was only the wiki.
(08:27:37 PM) spevack: The "current" version of fedoraproject.org was
born out of two desires by me:
(08:27:51 PM) tw2113: I'm +1 for an overall as a long term goal
(08:27:52 PM) spevack: 1) To kill fedora.redhat.com and remove all
fedora content from Red Hat machines
(08:27:53 PM) spevack: and
(08:28:04 PM) spevack: 2) to have a few static pages that could sit
above the wiki and provide a more professional look to our site.
(08:28:09 PM) tw2113: F10 to F11 timeframe
(08:28:12 PM) spevack: So...
(08:28:26 PM) spevack: now we also have planet, docs, fedorahosted, etc.
(08:28:39 PM) spevack: lots of other sites that are in the Fedora
world, and it would be nice to get a unified look and feel there.
(08:28:39 PM) glezos: spevack: +mirrors, transifex
(08:28:51 PM) spevack: So that people can just realize "hey, this is a
Fedora Property"
(08:29:19 PM) spevack: A common look and feel, as mmcgrath says, can
only come after there is a consensus of *what* that look and feel
should be
(08:29:24 PM) tw2113: this topic reminds me of my alma mater
(08:29:32 PM) spevack: some people like really minimal websites
(08:29:35 PM) tw2113: they're still in the process of updating the
entire span of the website
(08:29:36 PM) giarc_w: -1 to overhaul look and feel until we have at
least caught up with making that 'hey, this is fedora' realization a
reality
(08:29:40 PM) spevack: there's a million ideas for how to do a website.
(08:29:44 PM) juank_prada: spevack: in order to accomplish the idea of
the static page there should be information to be displayed in it...
right now the website lacks of information and all of it is being held
in the wiki which makes havin fp.o a lack of resources and a domain
(08:29:47 PM) tw2113: and it's been a year long process
(08:29:48 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: http://mmcgrath.fedorapeople.org/rhold/ :)
(08:29:49 PM) spevack: and i've been in enough meetings to realize
that most of them are ratholes
(08:30:27 PM) spevack: there are a few key questions, IMHO
(08:30:36 PM) spevack: and all design or engineering decisions come
from the answers to those questions
(08:30:46 PM) spevack: 1) what information do we want to give?
(08:30:52 PM) spevack: 2) how often do we want to update information?
(08:30:58 PM) spevack: 3) who do we want updating information?
(08:31:15 PM) spevack: let me be honest with you all...
(08:31:28 PM) spevack: i'm not really sure the best way to wrap my
head around this problem.
(08:31:33 PM) juank_prada: if you allow me to answer those questions,
ill try to do so from the point of view of a user
(08:31:42 PM) spevack: juank_prada: go ahead
(08:32:22 PM) juank_prada: 1) if the users look for the primary site
of a project (in this case fp.o) what he is looking for is primary
information about the project
(08:32:58 PM) juank_prada: also, information about the state of the
project, what thing are being donte, what is the difference between
this project and some other
(08:34:05 PM) ***mmcgrath never goes to suse or ubuntu's website for
information about their projects..  I always go to download ubuntu or
suse.
(08:34:10 PM) juank_prada: if that information catch his attention he
will start digging in the site looking for more specific information,
wich my lead to a user looking for how to join or how to install/use
fedora
(08:34:26 PM) ivazquez: How do you feel that we succeed on that account?
(08:34:46 PM) ivazquez: s/succeed/do/
(08:35:02 PM) juank_prada: i dont really think that we are succeeding.
(08:35:04 PM) spevack: Well, look, I think there are a few fairly
distinct areas of work that we need to be operating in.
(08:35:14 PM) spevack: (1) Displaying appropriate content and
information on our websites.
(08:35:19 PM) tw2113: gotta go, cya all in the marketing meeting tomorrow :)
(08:35:21 PM) spevack: (2) Theme and look and feel of *.fedoraproject.org
(08:35:27 PM) ricky: tw2113: Thanks for coming
(08:35:32 PM) spevack: (3) Process around getting changes (either
trivial or large) made.
(08:35:32 PM) giarc_w: ciao tw2113
(08:35:46 PM) ricky: Content seems to be the big discussion right now
(08:35:57 PM) giarc_w: yeah, i agree, content is king
(08:35:58 PM) juank_prada: as i said before most of the information is
on the wiki, which makes having fp.o useless as at the end a user
looking for information wont stay on fp.o, instead he will be going to
the wiki
(08:36:00 PM) JonRob: theme and look and feel is informed by content
(08:36:04 PM) glezos: ricky: thankfully we've got a few examples we
could look at, I guess.
(08:36:12 PM) spevack: From the perspective of attacking all of these
things simultaneously, I think we need to be able to have some leaders
in each of those categories.
(08:36:55 PM) tw2113: just a note: content is king. you can style a
pile of poo 3 ways to sunday and throw some glitter on it to top it
off, but in the end it's still poo. get good content
(08:37:13 PM) giarc_w: juank_prada, if the user finds information on
the wiki by using the website, how is that a useless web site?
(08:37:23 PM) giarc_w: seems to have worked to me
(08:37:33 PM) spevack: here's the other key question -- Who Makes The
Final Decision?
(08:37:34 PM) ivazquez: juank_prada: Can you point to specific failure points?
(08:37:59 PM) spevack: Before we start working on a bunch of different
visions for content on fp.o, who is going to make the call of what we
go with in the end?  Does Fedora need a "webmaster"?
(08:38:00 PM) juank_prada: giarc_w: the problem is how many clicks a
user need to do in order to reach information... in web engineering
that one of the things to deal with
(08:38:28 PM) ***mmcgrath is under the constant opinion that the wiki
is not to be trusted, is confusing and suffers from a complete lack of
any vision whatsoever.
(08:38:33 PM) spevack: Someone that the websites team trusts to sort
of be the decision-maker from a content point of view, and someone
(probably someone else) who can be the decision maker from a technical
point of view.
(08:38:40 PM) glezos: spevack: judging by the work/discussions we've
done so far and the progress seen, this big task sounds like a good
idea for a workshop at FUDCon.
(08:38:47 PM) spevack: glezos: yeah
(08:39:11 PM) glezos: ie. a get-together attack instead of many
distributed people working on different tasks.
(08:39:12 PM) juank_prada: ivazquez: one would be the information
about spins... in the get fedora section we point to the mirrors to
download spins.. but we never said ther what are those, or whats the
difference of those spins
(08:39:17 PM) ivazquez: mmcgrath: Perhaps then we need to do away with
huge swaths of the wiki and make them static content instead.
(08:39:34 PM) spevack: When people come to the Fedora website, there
are two things that I want them to be able to do.
(08:39:35 PM) mmcgrath: ivazquez: I think there was a plan for that
but no manpower to do it.
(08:39:39 PM) spevack: 1) GET FEDORA
(08:39:41 PM) ricky: juank_prada: There was talk of having an
explanatory spins.fp.o, but that never materialized :(
(08:39:42 PM) spevack: 2) JOIN FEDORA
(08:39:52 PM) spevack: we've done a good job of making that a reality.
(08:40:01 PM) MostafaDaneshvar [n=Mostafa at 217.219.95.36] entered the room.
(08:40:27 PM) spevack: i think that the vision that was spins.fp.o is
exactly what "GET FEDORA" should become.
(08:40:31 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: and spins never came about because no
one ever gave us templates to incorporate.  No worker beers.
(08:40:34 PM) mmcgrath: err worker bees.
(08:40:40 PM) JonRob: heh
(08:40:51 PM) spevack: well, there are a lot of people in this meeting.
(08:40:54 PM) spevack: obviously a lot of people who care.
(08:41:00 PM) ***mmcgrath would have done that.... but it would have
come out terrible.
(08:41:06 PM) glezos: brb in 5
(08:41:07 PM) glezos is now known as glezos_afk
(08:41:11 PM) spevack: let me put it this way...
(08:41:48 PM) juank_prada: mmcgrath: mizmo did a great job on some
templates to be used for spins.fedoraproject.org but as ivazquez said
it never materialized
(08:42:01 PM) ivazquez: mmcgrath: How it looks is unimportant in the
grand scheme of things.
(08:42:08 PM) spevack: If I were the King of Fedora, and I could just
present a vision and make it happen instantly, I focus all me efforts
on making it as simple as possible for people to join fedora (which
we've been doing well) and in making it as simple as possible for
people to see all the different Fedora spins that exist, and then have
a mechanism to either download them or build them on their own.
(08:42:21 PM) mmcgrath: juank_prada: nope, no templates were ever
given to me.  Just mockups.  There was one person on that team that
kept saying "I'll get you the templates" but I never got a thing.
(08:43:18 PM) daMaestro left the room (quit: "Leaving").
(08:43:21 PM) giarc_w: I think that if we distrust the wiki, we should
identify the info we want from the wiki and make those pages static so
there is tighter control of it's message to users
(08:43:32 PM) juank_prada: mmcgrath: i can work on it on this weekend
(08:43:36 PM) spevack: Ok... we can talk in circles all day.  But
here's my leadership/management style.  It's to ask who is willing to
commit to a specific action.
(08:44:05 PM) JonRob: spevack: you beat me to that very question!
(08:44:06 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: sounds like juank_prada just
committed (please correct me if I'm wrong)
(08:44:16 PM) spevack: and then to make sure that those actions all
tie together to a unified vision
(08:44:31 PM) spevack: juank_prada: so, what exactly are you going to
take a look at and work on?
(08:44:36 PM) juank_prada: mmcgrath: you are right... ill start
working on the spins layout
(08:44:38 PM) mmcgrath: but really juank_prada seems to be a guy that
has a vision for the website, and has even built some mockups.
(08:44:56 PM) spevack: great -- that's exactly the sort of design
leadership that we're looking for.
(08:44:58 PM) mmcgrath: juank_prada: do you have access to the web repo btw?
(08:45:18 PM) spevack: ok, so one item for next week's agenda is to
let juank_prada present his vision and show us whatever mockups he has
built.
(08:45:26 PM) juank_prada: i think ricky gave me access although ive
never had the time to commit any changes until now
(08:45:35 PM) spevack: two -- ricky, correct me if I'm wrong, but it
seems like most actual process stuff tends to flow through you right
now.
(08:45:38 PM) mmcgrath: juank_prada: k, ping me in here or
#fedora-admin if you have any questions.
(08:45:40 PM) spevack: is that right?
(08:45:49 PM) ricky: spevack: Yeah.
(08:45:52 PM) juank_prada: mmcgrath: ok... :)
(08:46:16 PM) ricky: But that ends up amounting to relatively little,
to be honest.
(08:46:26 PM) spevack: ricky: so, do you want to be in charge of doing
whatever you think is right to make the actual change processes more
scalable, better, etc.  Basically taking ownership of being the
interface between Infrastructure and Websites?
(08:47:00 PM) ricky: Sure thing (and l10n too)
(08:47:09 PM) spevack: ricky: this comes with no mandates from me,
other than to acknowledge that everyone looks at you as The Guy Who
Gets Stuff Done on The Website and to make sure you have the power to
construct those processes however you like.
(08:47:59 PM) spevack: ok, so how about for next week you be ready to
share with us wha tyou think is good, or where you think we need to
make improvements
(08:48:11 PM) ***spevack keeps having his irc connection hang on
him... very annoying
(08:48:42 PM) juank_ [n=juanky at 200.114.38.35] entered the room.
(08:48:45 PM) spevack: ok, what else?  mmcgrath, anything else that
was on your mind that we haven't touched on yet?
(08:48:53 PM) spevack: i don't expect to solve everything today, but I
want to see us moving forward.
(08:48:56 PM) juank_: sorry guys... internet crashed :S
(08:49:03 PM) ricky: OK.  There are two main things preventing us from
having more freedom with content - first, a unified vision for
content, and then the process for getting it in.
(08:49:12 PM) ricky: What can we do to resolve these?
(08:49:31 PM) JonRob: we could do like the art team does for art work,
re: vision for content
(08:49:34 PM) giarc_w: ricky, are you including getting translated
content in those 2?
(08:49:35 PM) spevack: Here's the thing, folks... all of us can have
visions for the website, but we have to have a couple of people who
are empowered to actually build up test instances, let people play
with things, etc.  We need some web engineers.
(08:49:36 PM) JonRob: or maybe that's over kill
(08:49:41 PM) ricky: giarc_w: That's the process.
(08:49:54 PM) spevack: Do we need to do some recruiting?
(08:50:08 PM) juank_: that would be good
(08:50:12 PM) ricky: juank_prada: I've seen some really insightful
discussions about content on the marketing/art lists.
(08:50:18 PM) ricky: juank_prada: Oops, I mean JonRob
(08:50:37 PM) mmcgrath: recruiting is good, it might be best to make
sure we have something for people to do and that it can get put
through the process before we ask people to come though.
(08:50:40 PM) JonRob: yeah, i know the ones you mean ricky
(08:50:53 PM) ivazquez: Perhaps we should get Marketing involved in
content generation.
(08:51:00 PM) giarc_w: ivazquez, +1
(08:51:04 PM) JonRob: ok: here's my suggestion
(08:51:05 PM) juank_: ivazquez: +1
(08:51:12 PM) giarc_w: and or docs writers
(08:51:27 PM) spevack: JonRob: go!
(08:51:35 PM) JonRob: we take this week to discuss with marketing and
artwork, and anyone else who's interested, to get some visions for
what the websites need to become
(08:51:36 PM) ricky: +1
(08:51:47 PM) JonRob: it doesn't matter if we get one or several
(08:51:50 PM) JonRob: but to get some ideas
(08:52:07 PM) JonRob: we can talk about this next week and either a)
figure which one we'd like to pick up and run with
(08:52:23 PM) JonRob: it doesn't matter if it follows the original
spec perfectly, release early and often etc :)
(08:52:30 PM) ivazquez: Absolutely. We're capable of doing the
implementation, but without the ideas there's no point.
(08:52:34 PM) JonRob: or we can run with several and wittle it down as we go
(08:52:52 PM) spevack: So, sorry if I'm repeating myself, but let me
ask this question:
(08:53:03 PM) spevack: Is what we lack a VISION FOR CONTENT, or PEOPLE
TO ACTUALLY DO WORK, or both?
(08:53:10 PM) ricky: Both, and a clear process.
(08:53:16 PM) ricky: So we have a lot of work to do :-)
(08:53:21 PM) epkphoto: both, especially the clear process part
(08:53:25 PM) juank_: i agree with ricky
(08:53:26 PM) ivazquez: More the former from my POV.
(08:53:31 PM) JonRob: i think with a vision would come more people to help
(08:53:37 PM) spevack: ok, well I've appointed Ricky "process guy".
(08:53:42 PM) giarc_w: vision, i think...it seems we have the hands to implement
(08:53:50 PM) mmcgrath: spevack: really we're looking at the last
remnance of the way things used to be... One or two people just doing
the work.  its like starting the websites team from scratch again.
(08:53:58 PM) spevack: juank_ has indicated that he wants to present
at least one vision of Content
(08:54:10 PM) mmcgrath: stuff is getting done, but its because of the
dedication of the individuals on the team, not the team itself.  We
need to move to a team environment.
(08:54:20 PM) ivazquez: We've shown in the past that we can get the
work done... when there's work to be done.
(08:54:29 PM) spevack: mmcgrath: *nod*
(08:54:56 PM) spevack: well look, if we're basically rebooting the
Fedora Websites team
(08:55:09 PM) spevack: we need the interface to Infrastructure (ricky)
(08:55:15 PM) spevack: We need an interface to Artwork (???)
(08:55:26 PM) ricky: mizmo?
(08:55:29 PM) couf: Docs here
(08:55:36 PM) spevack: mizmo would make sense
(08:55:48 PM) ricky: quaid + couf?
(08:55:50 PM) mmcgrath: we probably shouldn't volunteer her without
her being here though.
(08:55:55 PM) ***abadger1999 has been watching the wrong channel :-(
(08:56:14 PM) mmcgrath: ianweller might be another one.
(08:56:15 PM) giarc_w: tw2113, maybe as well
(08:56:20 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: Ah, true.
(08:56:30 PM) ianweller: hmm?
(08:56:30 PM) ***ianweller wakes up
(08:56:35 PM) ivazquez: We have no shortage of Art people in the Websites team.
(08:56:45 PM) spevack: I think we can get all sorts of good art.
(08:56:50 PM) giarc_w: (or infra)
(08:57:18 PM) juank_: but we first need to tell them what exactly is
what should be done.. and that will only happens after knowing what
kind of info will be shown
(08:57:33 PM) ivazquez: Infra is more tightly defined though, so
having a single Infra POC is a good idea.
(08:57:34 PM) spevack: juank_: and you're going to present us with a
vision for that next week, right?
(08:57:42 PM) mmcgrath: <nod>
(08:57:50 PM) mmcgrath: ricky: its up to you, do you want to be
primary infra POC or should I?
(08:57:53 PM) ***mmcgrath doesn't care.
(08:58:26 PM) ianweller: is this a meeting right now?
(08:58:28 PM) juank_: spevack: ill work on spins section... and i
already did a change to the first page on fp.o to manage some other
content
(08:58:39 PM) giarc_w: ianweller, yep
(08:58:39 PM) spevack: juank_: excellent.
(08:58:50 PM) ricky: mmcgrath: Sure - it'll be good to have two people :)
(08:59:44 PM) ***ricky suddenly wonders about news.fedoraproject.org
(08:59:46 PM) spevack: ok, what else do you guys want to talk about?
Do people feel like we've made any progress in this hour?  At least
identified a few issues and started to carve out some ownership
(08:59:59 PM) JonRob: ricky: progres is being made :)
(09:00:13 PM) ricky: Eeeexcellent :)
(09:00:15 PM) juank_: somebody to help ricky would be good... as he
pointed in the ml he was very busy with FAS2 so ther should be
somebody else so ricky dont get overwhelmed with tasks
(09:00:53 PM) ricky: juank_: +1!
(09:01:00 PM) giarc_w: i'll over to help, where ever I can, just point me
(09:01:03 PM) giarc_w: offer
(09:01:04 PM) ivazquez: I can help with the VCS part, but I don't know
the metal that well.
(09:01:04 PM) spevack: I have one more question
(09:01:12 PM) spevack: actually, no i don't
(09:01:16 PM) spevack: i think we have enough swirling right now
(09:01:25 PM) mmcgrath: juank_: yeah, ricky and I will just keep the
lines open with eachother.  Ricky's off to college soon too so I
suspect he doesn't quite know how much free time is in his future :)
(09:01:26 PM) ricky: I should start to be more open with the process
on the ml (and with asking people to do stuff)
(09:01:34 PM) ianweller: so do we need a point of contact for artwork?
(09:01:39 PM) ricky: Yeah :)
(09:01:52 PM) giarc_w: i have a question about translations: what are
we planning to do with new pages that do not have translations?
(09:01:54 PM) ivazquez: And maybe we should have one for Marketing as well.
(09:02:07 PM) spevack: Who will be at FUDCon boston?
(09:02:08 PM) ***ricky
(09:02:09 PM) giarc_w: should they wait, or do in
(09:02:11 PM) giarc_w: ?
(09:02:14 PM) giarc_w: go
(09:02:21 PM) ***ivazquez nominates juank_ for the Marketing POC
(09:02:29 PM) ricky: giarc_w: At this point, I'm with go in.
(09:02:39 PM) giarc_w: ok
(09:02:41 PM) ianweller: i'd be willing to be an artwork POC, you
could ask tw2113 too, and make sure you let mizmo know
(09:02:42 PM) ricky: giarc_w: But I'd feel much better if I could put
it in and know that it'd be translated within say, 2 weeks.
(09:03:09 PM) ricky: ianweller: We should probably email a few lists
about this soon
(09:03:10 PM) giarc_w: <nod> how can we do that ?
(09:03:18 PM) juank_: i wouldnt mind to be the Marketing POC if you
all agree with that
(09:03:36 PM) couf: juank_: hired
(09:03:36 PM) juank_prada left the room (quit: Read error: 110
(Connection timed out)).
(09:03:38 PM) JonRob: no problems here :)
(09:03:38 PM) giarc_w: +1 for juank_ POC with marketing
(09:03:38 PM) MostafaDaneshvar left the room ("Konversation terminated!").
(09:03:38 PM) ricky: giarc_w: One idea that I mentioned was a sort of
website translation cycle that l10n would be aware of (although I'm
not sure how much that could affect our speed/flexibility)
(09:04:30 PM) spevack: ok... so I think we're about ready to adjourn
the official part of this meeting, though everyone can keep talking.
JonRob... about that volunteering to be secretary?  Will you get a log
posted and also glean out of it the various action items that we have?
(09:04:41 PM) JonRob: yep
(09:04:47 PM) JonRob: lol is the only reason i'm here really!!
(09:04:47 PM) ricky: Important thing: Next meeting time?
(09:04:53 PM) spevack: JonRob: thank you -- i cannot tell you how much
i appreciate that.
(09:04:55 PM) ricky: We're on top of a docs meeting now, I think.
(09:04:58 PM) ricky: JonRob: Thanks!
(09:05:11 PM) JonRob: np - good excuse for avoiding essay writing :p
(09:05:50 PM) ricky: So wednesdays are really good for me, except for
20:10 - 21:30 UTC or so.
(09:06:11 PM) ricky: What other days/times are convenient for everybody?
(09:06:27 PM) juank_: i cant really do on wednesday... i rather
mondays o fridays ... (today was an exception)
(09:06:39 PM) ianweller: i have school and usually i can pop in IRC
about 20:00-21:00 UTC on weekdays.
(09:06:53 PM) ianweller: any time before that is impossible for me
(09:07:02 PM) JonRob: shall i set up a matrix on the wiki? or is that overkill?
(09:07:08 PM) JonRob: i know it works for docs
(09:07:20 PM) ***giarc_w is pretty flexible and will be able to make
most any time
(09:07:23 PM) ricky: JonRob: That'd be great, can you post a link
along with the meeting log?
(09:07:30 PM) ***ricky actually has to run now, since it's almost 20:10 :)
(09:07:41 PM) JonRob: yep...hopefully all should be up later tonight
(09:07:49 PM) ianweller: cool
(09:08:09 PM) ricky: All right, then - thanks a lot, everybody.
(09:08:14 PM) JonRob: though if anyone wants to let me know how to do
the irc to html conversion so it looks swish on the wiki that'd be
cool
(09:08:18 PM) ricky: spevack: and thanks for stepping up to make this happen1
(09:08:44 PM) JonRob: yep - you guys got some good work done this eve,
congrats to all
(09:08:44 PM) spevack: ricky: well, i'll drive these meetings for the
forseeable future.  If there's one skill I have, it's repeating "who's
doing X" over and over again :)
(09:08:45 PM) couf: JonRob: talk to jmbuser he knows how it works
(09:08:55 PM) spevack: so is there a plan to figure out the next meeting time?
(09:09:00 PM) ricky: JonRob: Sending the log to the mailing list is convenient.
(09:09:01 PM) JonRob: couf: thanks
(09:09:09 PM) JonRob: ricky: i'll do both
(09:09:10 PM) ricky: (Infrastructure does that + a link to the ml post
from the wiki)
(09:09:29 PM) ricky: spevack: So far, it looks like wiki matrix +
boucing times around on the ml
(09:09:33 PM) ricky: JonRob: Thanks a lot
(09:09:35 PM) spevack: ok
(09:09:57 PM) spevack: ok, well we'll see you all next week... and
I'll be hounding folks on the ML who accepted action items.  :)
(09:10:02 PM) spevack: Thanks for coming, all
(09:10:08 PM) spevack: ============ adjourned ==============