meeting minutes from last night

[Asgeir Frimannsson]

On Wednesday 20 August 2008 22:33:02 Máirín Duffy wrote:
> Asgeir Frimannsson wrote:
> > Overwhelming the user is my main concern, yes. Using the extra 200 px for
> > an application-based menu/toolbox/help-view, rather than cramming it in
> > the remaining 80%, would be much more favorable than 'wasting' it on a
> > sub-optimal global navigation.
>
> You know, this all sounds well and good, but means absolutely nothing
> without user feedback and testing of the specific designs we are
> discussing. Of which we have nothing to back either of our claims as
> mentioned earlier.
>
> >> You wouldn't worry more about having 8 tabs horizontally across the top,
> >> their German translations making the last two or three tabs scroll
> >> horizotnally or jump down the next row? I don't think i18n is really a
> >> good justification for your stance here.
> >
> > That depends on how dominant this menu is on the page. To me, a global
> > navigation on a site like fpo should be clearly visible, but also easily
> > 'ignorable' when working within a specific application. For example,
> > google.com has 12 Items in its' global menu (7 navigation, 5 other) when
> > logged in, and is localised in many languages, including German (which
> > naturally takes more space).
>
> The Google.com bar you mention is for global naviation between separate
> Google.com applications, not for navigation within a single application.
>
> Remember that this navigation bar is not meant for global navigation
> between sites or even between separate applications, as I said before it
> is for navigation within a single application. I know quite well the
> arguments against global navigation and I also do not think they apply
> here as this is not a global navigation bar. To navigation between
> various Fedora applications and sites it's been proposed to have a
> customizable, very small bar (~40px tall) at the top or even bottom of
> the screen to point to other applications very much in the style of the
> Google.com bar you mentioned.

That makes more sense now. From the discussion, I had in my head that the 
left-navigation is the one to navigate between various applications 
(FAS,L10N,planet etc..), and the top tabs for the individual application 
(similar to how it is on many existing fpo sites). And that was the basis of  
my comments. 

> > If the target is a site where the global navigation is a dominant element
> > of the page, then yes, I see your point, and having these tabs
> > horizontally wouldn't be feasible. But if the target is a Fedora themed
> > 'frame' for applications to inherit, with a non-intrusive global
> > navigation, then I think the proposal is a bit off target, and a smaller
> > horizontal global navigation would be a better option. That's my 2 cents.
>
> I think you've made an incorrect assumption about how the navigation bar
> is meant to be used. It's not global navigation, as I mentioned earlier
> in the thread it's for various areas within a single application. There
> is no global naviation in the mockups I've posted.

That makes sense now that you say it. 

> Re your 2 cents, you seem extremely interested in this. 

I was simply commenting on an issue that annoys me we the current websites 
(e.g. translate.fpo), and from the mockup it seemed that the issue was still 
there, so I thought spending 1 minute submitting a friendly report in that 
direction would be useful. Now that you say there is a global navigation bar 
planned as well, your design makes perfect sense, and is indeed a very good 
one.

> Would you mind
> making some mockups and designs as alternative proposals? I think that
> might be a lot more helpful than a long mailing list thread. I've spent
> the past month or so making mine. Can you invest that kind of time into
> this project? Because we are always looking for new websites team
> contributors. Our meetings are every Monday evening Eastern time,
> depending on the week 4 pm ET (next week) or 6 PM et (week after... it
> alternates)
>
> I am happy that we are having discussions about the design on the list
> but at the same time I have seen time and time again discussions like
> this to put a destructive stop to a project making forward progress, and
> I would prefer to see this project get to the first major milestone and
> improve it from that point based on actual user feedback rather than
> just talk about design decisions that were made two months ago because I
> think that's a better way to make sure that this project doesn't get
> abandoned.

No, I will not make a mockup, because mine would look like a site from the 
nineties at best. I am perfectly happy with your proposal now that it is in 
the context of another 'global navigation' on top/bottom, and would really 
like to commend the great work and effort being done on this. It will be great 
to have a design like this for infrastructure apps :)

/me puts in his todo list to dig into the archives to search for the 
discussion on global navigation :)

cheers,
asgeir