Meeting Log - 2008-12-22

[Ricky Zhou]

20:00 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Websites Meeting
20:00  * ianweller 
20:00  * ricky 
20:00 < ianweller> er wait, new format.
20:00 < ianweller> [[User:ianweller|Ian Weller]]
20:00 < ricky> Ha.
20:00 < ianweller> ricky: hey latest release of supybot-fedora has it so you can type '.wikiuser ianweller' and it'll spit that back
20:01 < ricky> Nice
20:01 -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Baconz at fedora/sonarguy] has quit "Xchat destroyed by Operating System"
20:01 < ricky> Aanybody else around?
20:02 < ianweller> rsc: ping?
20:02 -!- bassel [n=bassel at 82.137.249.90] has joined #fedora-meeting
20:02  * ricky notices that FergatROn was asking about the websites meeting
20:02 < FergatROn> i'm around but i'm not part of thr team yet.
20:02 < ianweller> FergatROn: doesn't matter, join in :)
20:02 < ricky> Ah, welcome then
20:03 < FergatROn> cool, i'm babysitting my kids so i have one hand to type with
20:03 < ricky> By the way, we hang out in #fedora-websites as well (but this is the meeting channel)
20:03 < ricky> Heh
20:03 < ricky> OK, so it's probably time to go through and clean up the tasks list again
20:03 < ricky> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Tasks
20:03 < FergatROn> cool i marked it
20:03 < rsc> ianweller: pong.
20:03 < rsc> [[User:robert|Robert Scheck]]
20:04 < ricky> Heh
20:04 < ricky> Aw, mizmo-out's out :-/
20:04 < ianweller> she's on vacation iirc
20:05 < ricky> Any idea what's going on with usability testing?
20:05 < ricky> Feedback on get-fedora was good, but I noticed some questions about join-fedora come up recently as well
20:05 -!- LetoTo [n=paul at CPE00d0cf047bfd-CM001225d87d3c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #fedora-meeting []
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20:06 < ricky> So this goes back to the question of how we want people to get started with Fedora
20:06 < ricky> For example, right now, http://fedoraproject.org/join-fedora has a huge banner telling people to sign up for an account
20:07 < ricky> Is that what we want the first step to be?
20:07 < ricky> (This would be a design decision both for the website and for FAS)
20:08 -!- bassel [n=bassel at 82.137.249.90] has quit "Leaving"
20:08 < ricky> Another question is - are we trying to generalize the tasks too much?  Somebody was confused about "OS Developer" on the list recently
20:10 < ricky> So we've improved get-fedora a lot - let's try to make join-fedora our next page to fix up
20:10 < ianweller> i saw that
20:10 < ianweller> yeah, agreed.
20:10 < ianweller> i would say "perhaps a hackfest at FUDCon would help" but it seems like there's gonna be enough hackfests for everyone to be forced into two places at once
20:11 < ianweller> :P
20:11 < ricky> Unfortunately, FUDCon is a pretty hard place to find non-Fedora contributors to do usability testing or anything :-)
20:12 < ricky> So what do you think we should show somebody who wants to get involved with Fedora?
20:13 < ricky> I think it might be good to make it more task-based
20:13 < ricky> That way, people will be able to see an item and say "I can do that"
20:14 < FergatROn> so there's two questions posted and we're talking about the first one?
20:14 < ianweller> crap, i gotta go
20:15  * ianweller exits
20:15 < ricky> ianweller: See you
20:15 < ricky> FergatROn: Yeah
20:15 < FergatROn> isn't that how join-fedora is setup now?
20:15 < FergatROn> i see the tasks... or groups.
20:15 < ricky> By the way, input from new contributors is especially useful for stuff like this :-)
20:15 < FergatROn> sweet XD
20:16 < ricky> I guess it's kind of a mix right now.  
20:16 < ricky> Designer is a pretty clear task, but something like "OS Developer" and "Content Writer" leads to a lot of teams
20:18 < FergatROn> how many teams are you looking to manage?
20:18  * ricky doesn't even know how many groups and teams we have all together
20:19 < ricky> Perhaps all we need to do is kind of an audit of all of the team pages off of join-fedora
20:20 < onekopakaa> sorry to come in mid-meeting
20:20 < ricky> I think it'd just be nicer to turn it into a step-by-step process or something easier/clearer
20:21 < ricky> Just curious: Do you think join-fedora was pretty clear?
20:21 < onekopakaa> yeah OS developer seems very general..
20:22 < FergatROn> If i recall, the sign up process was 1) show the groups, 2) sign up for an account...
20:22 < ricky> For example, how long did it take to find the websites mailing list?
20:22 < FergatROn> Not long for the mailing list... that's only because i'm tech savvy.  Regular users might not find it.
20:23 < FergatROn> i would suggest a bigger support or community link on the home page.
20:23 < FergatROn> from there they can find it.
20:23 < ricky> Is there anything else that could have been useful on join-fedora?
20:24 < ricky> My main goal in getting people involved is first to get them to talk on mailing lists and IRC channels.
20:24 < FergatROn> I do have an issue.. with the login system.  I'm trying to log into it and i forgot my username.  I looked in my inbox and I don't see anything about the username.  I'm trying to reset thepassword, but it needs the username. :(
20:24 < ricky> Ah, we need to add usernames to those emails then
20:24 < ricky> What's your email address?
20:25 < FergatROn> marc at fergytech.net
20:25 < ricky> .fas marc at fergytech.net
20:25 < zodbot> ricky: fergatron 'Marc Ferguson' <marc at fergytech.net>
20:25 -!- ezq [n=ezq at 200-127-101-170.cab.prima.net.ar] has joined #fedora-meeting
20:25 < ricky> OK, that's your username :-)
20:25 < FergatROn> is it case sensitive cause I did that! ??
20:25 < ricky> Usernames are always all lowercase
20:26 < FergatROn> ok i'm in... lower case.  gotta remember that.
20:26 < ricky> Cool
20:28 < FergatROn> so.. making it easier...
20:28 < FergatROn> do you want folks to join first or join a mailing list first?
20:28 < ricky> What I'd like to do is contact a few other teams to see how they want people to get involved with them
20:29 < ricky> The way I see it, joining a mailing list and talking to people on the team is usually the first step before an account is needed
20:29 < ricky> I'm not sure how other teams see things though
20:30 < ricky> So would anybody be interested in emailing around and getting a feel for what other teams need?
20:30 < onekopakaa> i have to shower so i hopefully will be back in time
20:30 < onekopakaa> ricky: i could do that.
20:30 -!- DemonJester [n=DemonJes at fedora/DemonJester] has quit "leaving"
20:30 < ricky> It'd be nice to streamline join-fedora so that we can have a single process for getting involved with all teams
20:31 < onekopakaa> auto subscribe script?
20:31 < FergatROn> If anything I think the "Group List" needs to be more user-friendly.  It might need to be done at the wiki level or if it can be done with the join application.  Show things by interest instead of listing all the groups.  I don't know where to start.
20:31 < ricky> So I guess just asking for suggestions of how people should join those teams and how join-fedora can be improved to help that
20:31 < ricky> FergatROn: Do you mean the group list in FAS?
20:31 < ricky> FAS = https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts/
20:31 < FergatROn> yes
20:31 < ricky> Ahh, that's the thing
20:31 < ricky> That group list isn't meant to be the way to find things to get involved in
20:32 < ricky> That's what join-fedora and http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join are supposed to be for
20:32 -!- Pikachu_2014 [n=Pikachu_ at 81-66-20-24.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #fedora-meeting
20:32 < FergatROn> hmm, that is something.
20:32 < ricky> Which is why it might be confusing that the first thing we do is tell people to create an account
20:33 < FergatROn> i see now.. yes that is a bit out of order.  I guess show the user all the possible groups (that might interest them) then have them create an account.
20:33 < ricky> onekopakaa: If you're feeling like it, sure :-)  There are a bunch of IRC channels that might be good to ask in as well
20:34 -!- baig [n=baig at 202.143.112.106] has joined #fedora-meeting
20:34 < FergatROn> it kind of does that now, but there's not action on the join wiki page... after i select designer... i don't knwo what to do after that.
20:34 < ricky> FergatROn: Exactly.  Groups in FAS are basically for access or tracking purposes, but teams in Fedora are what we want people to join
20:34 -!- warren [n=warren at redhat/wombat/warren] has quit "Leaving"
20:35 < FergatROn> ok, silly question then.  How do I join a team?
20:35 < ricky> Ah, so maybe we need to give more instructions on the join page
20:35 < ricky> And make sure there's some page users can get to with step-by-step instructions on how to join a team
20:36 < FergatROn> yes, that would be very helpful.  I think dumb it down as much as possible - to get users to understand.
20:36 < ricky> The way it is now, stuff like that is usually about 4 clicks away from our main page, so we should strive to decrease tht
20:36 -!- warren [n=warren at redhat/wombat/warren] has joined #fedora-meeting
20:37 < FergatROn> indeedy!
20:37 -!- ezq [n=ezq at 200-127-101-170.cab.prima.net.ar] has quit "Ex-Chat"
20:38 < ricky> So I'm thinking about what the first step would be..
20:38 < ricky> I guess it goes back to the teams.  What I'd like to see is some sort of step-by-step process for getting involved with each team.
20:39 < ricky> For most teams, it's probably something like: subscribe to mailing list, send intro email, make account/apply to group
20:39 < FergatROn> I'm looking at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/Join to get an idea... and the instructions is buried in there.
20:39 < ricky> The other teams like package maintainers, it's waaay longer than that
20:40 < ricky> So improving the join process has to take place in FAS as well
20:40 < ricky> How do you think FAS can be fixed to make things easier?
20:40 < FergatROn> yah it's: 1) join the mailing list, 2) register to bugzilla, 3) create an account in FAS... but then in FAS there's otehr steps right?
20:40 < ricky> Do you think we should hide the group list more, since it tends to be confusing and useless to users?
20:41 < FergatROn> yes, new users (like me) - still don't know how to sign up after doing all 3 things.
20:41 < ricky> In FAS, it's pretty much: make account, check email, fill in personal info, sign CLA, ...
20:41 < onekopakaa> back
20:41 < FergatROn> I'd like to be apart of the web team, but I haven't figured it out yet. :)
20:41 < ricky> FergatROn: Being on the mailing list and coming to meetings is definitely the right track :-)
20:41 < FergatROn> haha
20:42 < ricky> I've been thinking of two approaches to changing FAS
20:42 < ricky> One way is to detach FAS from everything else as much as possible - keep it strictly an account management tool
20:43 < ricky> The othe way is the try and integrate FAS into the process as much as possible, maybe even make it the central starting point
20:43 < ricky> Right now, we're in the middle of the road abou this
20:44 < FergatROn> wow that's two intense directions...
20:45 < ricky> Well, what are the advantages and disadvantages of either way?
20:45 -!- Pikachu_2014 [n=Pikachu_ at 81-66-20-24.rev.numericable.fr] has quit Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
20:45 < onekopakaa> integration means adding more code
20:45 < onekopakaa> seperation means taking away code.
20:45 < FergatROn> I think the Wiki should be where all the instructions are laid out... and the FAS be the action platform.
20:46 < onekopakaa> FergatROn: makes sense
20:46 < FergatROn> I see, now, in FAS that the "web" group... i can apply to.
20:46 -!- Pikachu_2014 [n=Pikachu_ at 81-66-20-24.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #fedora-meeting
20:46 < onekopakaa> why isn't that IP masked?
20:46 < FergatROn> If we get the users to a step by step and a listing (by interest) of the groups.  Then we can also show them how to use the FAS to join a group.
20:47 < ricky> Yeah.  One thing is that getting data on the wiki is a lot easier than getting data on FAS
20:47 < onekopakaa> and in the Wiki, changes are easier to make
20:47 < onekopakaa> oh
20:47 < onekopakaa> but the page should be protected, assuming the Wiki uses MediaWiki's standard permissions
20:48 < ricky> Well, the wiki is currently only writable by people that have signed the CLA, so we're not too worried about vandalism
20:48  * onekopakaa rereads the CLA
20:50  * FergatROn joined the web group, quick someone approve him.
20:50 < FergatROn> haha
20:51 < onekopakaa> i'm thinking vandals won't sign the CLA
20:51 < FergatROn> what's a CLA?
20:52 < ricky> It's the contributor license agreement
20:52 < onekopakaa> FergatROn: contributor License agreement
20:52 < onekopakaa> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal/Licenses/CLA
20:52 < ricky> It's part of the process for some groups, so it's another thing that we need to make clearer in our join process
20:53 < onekopakaa> yeah
20:53 < FergatROn> oh yah... i didn't read it :(
20:53 < ricky> So some tasks to take away:
20:53 < ricky> We should email various teams to see what the process for getting involved is and how join-fedora can be changed to make it easier
20:54 < ricky> If anybody's interested, it'd be nice to come up with some drafts for how http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join can be improved
20:54 < ricky> Another thing that could be useful is a wiki template for a join page that teams can use
20:54 < FergatROn> good idea
20:54 < FergatROn> get us all on the same page
20:55 < onekopakaa> i'm good with MW templates
20:55 < ricky> Excellent :-)
20:55 < onekopakaa> considering I manged my wiki
20:55 < ricky> So you can make test pages under at /wiki/User:username/whatever and such
20:56 < onekopakaa> if freenode would release onekopaka
20:56 < onekopakaa> ..
20:56 < ricky> What's that?
20:56 < onekopakaa> onekopaka is my nick on other IRC networks
20:56 -!- ezq [n=ezq at 200-127-101-170.cab.prima.net.ar] has joined #fedora-meeting
20:56 < ricky> Ah, heh
20:57 < onekopakaa> i forgot the password to my nick
20:57 < ricky> You should be able to ask in #freenode, it hasn't been used for a year
20:57 < ricky> Er, 3 years
20:57 < onekopakaa> 3 years?
20:57 < ricky> Yeah
20:57 < onekopakaa> i dunno that it's been 3 years.
20:57 < ricky> /msg nickserv info onekopaka
20:58 < onekopakaa> 3 years 3 weeks
20:58 < onekopakaa> wow
20:58 < ricky> FergatROn, onekopakaa: So could you guys work on contacting groups and making those wiki templates?
20:58 < ricky> Don't forget to mail any progress to the list :-)
20:58 < onekopakaa> okay
20:59 < FergatROn> ricky, i can contact folks - just need to know who? ;)
21:00 < ricky> Ah, great - I'll get a list of some IRC channels and mailing lists together.  It'll actually be a cool way for you to meet some people around the community
21:00 -!- onekopakaa is now known as onekopaka
21:01 < ricky> Ah, we're at the hour mark, so let's close the meeting
21:01 < ricky> Thanks for coming, everybody
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