Meeting Minutes 2008-07-07

Jonathan Roberts jonrob at
Sun Jul 13 20:17:07 UTC 2008

Sorry for the delay, minutes are here:

And log is below.




--- Log opened Tue Jul 08 00:00:00 2008
--- Day changed Tue Jul 08 2008
00:00 < spevack> ====== BEGIN FEDORA WEBSITES MEETING ======
00:00 < spevack> ok everyone, let's begin
00:00 < spevack> JonRob: right on :00 for you :)
00:00 ... join!#fedora-websites ->
epkphoto(n=epkphoto at
00:00 < spevack> for me it's even better -- 00:00:00 for the timestamp
00:00 < ricky> :-)
00:00 < spevack> let's do an official roll call, if you will
00:00 < JonRob> makes it all worthwhile!
00:00 < ianweller> ah, the magic of ntp...
00:00 < spevack> Max Spevack
00:00  * ianweller lurks
00:00 < JonRob> Jonathan Roberts
00:00 < ricky> Ricky Zhou
00:01 < epkphoto> Eric Kerby
00:01 < fchiulli> Frank Chiulli
00:01 < spevack> giarc around?
00:02 < spevack> epkphoto: at the risk of embarassing myself, I'll say
that I don't recognize your name immediately... have you been lurking
for a while, are you an old-timer who's not been around for a bit, or
am I just blind and dumb?
00:02  * quaid is here
00:02 < spevack> hey karsten
00:02 < epkphoto> lurking more or less
00:02 < spevack> well cool, good to have you here epkphoto
00:02  * spevack was expecting an answer of "I've been a Fedora
contributor since 2005, you insensitive clod!"
00:03 < spevack> ok... let's look at our agenda.
00:03 < epkphoto> one day after college stops consuming my life, I'll
be more recognizable :)
00:03 < spevack>
00:03 < spevack> pull ^^^^^ up if you all will
00:03 < spevack> epkphoto: what year are you?  where you located?
00:03 ... join!#fedora-websites -> ryanlerch(n=ryan at
00:03 < spevack> ok, let's start at the beginning.
00:03 < spevack> I was asked to add Planet to our task list
00:03  * abadger1999 here
00:04 < epkphoto> spevack: graduating in May 2009...located in
US/Eastern...specifically NY and VA
00:04 < spevack> namely, we need someone to go through and test on Macintoshes, Windows, etc.  We need a
cross-platform and major-browser test matrix
00:04 < spevack> people have been traveling during the holidays, using
random computers, and seeing breakage.
00:04 < spevack> So, who's got access to something other than Fedora?
00:04 < ricky> And Firefox on Linux still has that stupid scrolling problem :-(
00:04  * ianweller has seen breakage on his home computer, on fedora,
on firefox-3.0-1 :(
00:04  * ricky could never find out what caused that
00:05 < ianweller> well, the scrolling problem, that is
00:05 < JonRob> i have a mac so can't test os x - though i'll have to reinstall
00:05 < JonRob> can*
00:05 < spevack> Well, I'd like to do this in a slightly organized way
00:05 < epkphoto> i may be able to do some Mac OS X testing
00:05 < spevack> 1) simple page on that
lists the basic OSs and browsers we want to test look and feel in
00:05 < spevack> 2) a section under each where we can describe problems
00:06 < JonRob> ah ok, good idea!
00:06 < spevack> so that giarc or anyone else hacking on the CSS can
have a place to know what's going on... I'm trying to keep us away
from a trac instance
00:06 < spevack> that just feels like overkill to me
00:06 ... join!#fedora-websites -> giarc_touch(n=mobile at
00:07 < ricky> Speak of the devil :-)
00:07 < spevack> so would someone like to volunteer to create that
matrix, send a note to the list, and then get some volunteers to try
them out?  This is not a complex task -- let's just hit the 4 or 5
highlights and then have a report to give giarc_touch
00:07 < spevack> giarc_touch: howdy
00:07  * ianweller could create the matrix tomorrow
00:07 < giarc_touch> hi
00:07 < ricky> giarc_touch: What different browsers/platforms do you
have access to?
00:07 < spevack> giarc_touch: we're talking about building a little QA
team for you to test across a few different
browsers and platforms
00:08 < giarc_touch> cool
00:08 < spevack> ianweller: that would be great.  but i'm a little
sensitive to giving you stuff this week, unless you're sure you have
time for it
00:08 < ianweller> tomorrow i've got nothing going on
00:08 < spevack> ianweller: sounds good, then.  thanks!
00:08 < ianweller> shouldn't take too long to get ready
00:08 < spevack> I think you need:
00:08 < spevack> Windows -- IE & Firefox
00:08 < spevack> Mac -- Safari & Firefox
00:09 < giarc_touch> i
00:09 < spevack> Fedora -- Firefox and Epiphany
00:09 < giarc_touch> oops
00:09 < spevack> that probably covers most of it
00:09 < spevack> giarc_touch: go ahead
00:09 < ricky> And maybe Konqueror and possible Opera
00:09 < JonRob> + konq?
00:09 < spevack> ricky: +1
00:09 < ianweller> ok for internet exploder do we care about version 6?
00:09  * spevack presents himself to the KDE guys for a whipping
00:09 < giarc_touch> what issues are we having?
00:10  * spevack only cares about the latest version
00:10 < ricky> ianweller: We should really try to
00:10 < ianweller> i think we should definitely do $currentversion and
00:10 < spevack> giarc_touch: vague reports of "it looks bad on
non-Fedora firefox".  That is why we're trying to get volunteers to
look at it and either be specific, or just have it go away :)
00:10 < spevack> ianweller: sure.
00:10 < giarc_touch> ok
00:11 < spevack> ianweller: shoot for the stars, and we'll see what
kind of volunteers we can rustle up.
00:11 < ianweller> will do.
00:11 < spevack> giarc_touch: i want to come to you with specific
cases and screenshots, or not bother you at all
00:11 < spevack> ianweller: ask people to include screenshots with
their complaints, it will help giarc_touch a lot
00:11 < ianweller> ok
00:11 < quaid> make sure there is room for >1 person to comment per matrix cell
00:12 < ricky> test case #1: press page down until you reach the
bottom - make sure that there are no problems
00:12  * ricky is semi-convinced that this is a Firefox bug
00:12 < ricky> Er, gecko
00:12 < spevack> yeah, it doesn't even have to be a table quaid.  Just
various sections of the page where people can describe problems or
screenshots, etc.... i'm sure we'll work it out.
00:12 < ianweller> we could have a matrix that has anchor links to
different sections/pages
00:13 < quaid> +2
00:13 < spevack> ianweller: indeed.  In cases like this, i advocate
the simplest tool that will allow us to solve the problem :)
00:13 < ianweller> i'm out, bbl
00:13 < ianweller> i'll read logs
00:13 < quaid> that would work nice
00:13 < quaid> ciao
00:13 ... nick!ianweller -> ianweller_afk
00:13 < spevack> ok, let's move on then, since this is pretty well resolved.
00:13 < spevack> ianweller_afk: thanks dude
00:14 < spevack> mizmo-out is not here, so we'll set aside spins.fp.o
for the moment.
00:14 < spevack> get-fedora is on the list... juank isn't here but
giarc_touch is... let me ask quickly, where do we currently stand on
mockups for the next iteration of get-fedora?
00:14 < spevack> i know there's something out there, but i have
forgotten where it is.
00:16 < spevack> while we wait on giarc_touch .... ricky, do you have
any Websites/Infrastructure topics you need to bring up tonight?
00:16 < spevack> am i all by myself?
00:16 < quaid> yes
00:16  * spevack screams into the ether
00:16 < ricky> I still haven't had much luck making the buildscript
friendlier :-(
00:16 < quaid> uh, I mean, no
00:17 < ricky> The few leads from before turned out to have problems
00:17 < spevack> ricky: what kind of problems?
00:17 < spevack> they didn't have enough programming chops to do stuff?
00:17 < ricky> The ${Markup(_(' '))} stuff - I still haven't been able
to shake it
00:18 < spevack> ricky: how does that relate to problems with the
leads we got from people who said they might be interested in helping?
00:18 < ricky> I don't completely remember what happened with those (I
was gone all last week)
00:19 < ricky> I think I've sent a few emails describing the problems
that we're facing, but no clear solutions yet
00:20 < fchiulli> ricky: what kind of help do you need?
00:20 < spevack> ricky: well, would you like me to follow up with
them, do you want to, or what?  what is the best way, overall, that we
can help you out, either technically or from a recruiting point of
00:21 < ricky> Mostly planning out how to handle translations well.  I
don't think our current workflow is working as well as it could be.
00:21 < JonRob> i'm a bit clueless on this stuff
00:21 < JonRob> but does turbo gears make this kind of thing easier?
00:22 < JonRob> could we leverage toshio et al?
00:22 < ricky> I spoke with couf a while back (sent to the list with
subject "A conversation about website translation") that describes
some of the current problems.
00:23 < ricky> One question is whether po files works for website translations
00:24 < ricky> It's a pretty specific situation - unlike the
documentation team, we don't follow any specific schedule or anything.
00:25 < spevack> ricky: can glezos help here somehow?
00:25 < ricky> So what could be the costs/benefits to having some sort
of release cycle for the website?
00:25 < ricky> spevack: I haven't spoken to him recently - I'll
definitely see if he has any thoughts
00:26 < spevack> ricky: is it fair to say that we already have the
*basics* of a release cycle for the website, and perhaps just need to
beef up the process a bit?
00:27 < ricky> Maybe.  I'm trying to think about all of this while
keeping my mind on the future of our website.  Do we want to expand a
lot from what we have now in terms of content?
00:28 < quaid> specifically the problem with the markup is that it is
a pain to author in the original language
00:28 < quaid> since it makes PO files, that part is solved, right?
00:28 < ricky> Definitely - that's a specific technical problem that I
haven't been able to solve :-(
00:29 < quaid> I wonder if we are re-inventing a hamster wheel that
someone else (e.g. Drupal) has resolved ...
00:29 < quaid> s/Drupal/$CMS/
00:29 ... signoff!#fedora-websites -> tw2113("Never look down on
someone unless you're helping them up.")
00:31 < spevack> so what's the path forward here?
00:31 < spevack> i need something to write on the task page along with
a check in date
00:31 < spevack> :)
00:31 < spevack> 'cause that's how i roll
00:32 < JonRob> eh, we all love task lists - at least i do
00:33 < spevack> hello?  ricky?
00:33  * spevack shakes the internet and smacks it like a malfunctioning toaster
00:33 < ricky> Heh, sorry
00:34 < ricky> Just thinking...
00:34 < ricky> quaid's CMS mention is sounding pretty tempting, honestly.
00:34  * quaid nods his head
00:35 < quaid> and if anyone says Plone ...
00:35 < quaid> I'll smack ya!
00:35 < ricky> Thank you :-P
00:35 < spevack> quaid: /nick mrT :)
00:35  * JonRob wonders hat happened to plone in the end
00:35  * JonRob ducks
00:36 < quaid> looks like there ht be some options written in TG
00:36 < spevack> so, should we make this topic #1 next week?
00:37 < spevack> if so, what do we need to do this week to have it be
useful conversation next week?
00:37 < ricky> I'm curious about what everybody's vision for the website is
00:37 < ricky> As in, how much will we expand from what we have now?
What should be on the wiki vs. on the website?
00:39 < spevack> static stuff that changes at release, with minor
updates mid-release == website
00:39 < spevack> everything else == wiki
00:39 < JonRob> do we want to pull docs etc into the same structure?
00:39 < ricky> This can help us decide how useful a CMS would be to us
and what to look for in a solution
00:40 < spevack> that's a vision for --
spins.fp.o is a totally separate creature.
00:40 < ricky> JonRob: I don't think docs and websites will end up
using the same tools
00:40 < spevack> but i assume ricky you are talking about www.fp.o
00:40 < ricky> That I am
00:40 ... signoff!#fedora-websites -> giarc_touch(Connection timed out)
00:41 < quaid> +1 to /*ANY*/ CMS for
00:42 < ricky> But I mean content-wise - will it pretty much stay like
it is now?
00:42 < JonRob> ricky: there's a few small additions i'd like to make
at some point
00:42 < ricky> quaid: So we're not going to end up using publican to
just generate them all?
00:42 < JonRob> but i guess so
00:42 < spevack> two questions:
00:42 < quaid> ricky: publican only does part of the picture.
00:42 < spevack> 1) quaid, can't docs make a decision on CMS pretty
much "on its own"?
00:43  * quaid could see how to hack it with publican and cronjob, but
that is juts ore of the same
00:43 < spevack> 2) ricky, are you trying to get at whether www.fp.o
needs to run on top of a CMS or on top of custom build/publish
00:43 < quaid> spevack: not without an army of code monkeys at my command
00:44 < ricky> spevack: That and what would the requirements be for a solution
00:44 < spevack> do we have a sitemap for www.fp.o similar to the one
mizmo-out made for spins.fp.o?
00:44 < spevack> if not, we need one.
00:44 < spevack> it will show us the present, and also the potential future
00:44 < spevack> and really help with a whole bunch of decisions that
need to be made
00:45 < spevack> agreed, or no?  is that where this conversation
ultimately goes, in order to be able to make a smart decision
00:45 < spevack> ?
00:45 < JonRob> +1
00:46 < ricky> Yeah
00:46 < spevack> ok... /me makes a note of that.
00:46 < spevack> and jonrob will have it in the minutes too
00:46  * ricky notes the "Fedora Website" document in gobby
00:46 < quaid> yes, we need to see a massive site map that shows the
roles of sub-domains as well
00:47 < spevack> quaid: indeed
00:47 < quaid> so we can be clear wtf docs.fp.o is for, or realize
it's redundant or whatever
00:47 < quaid> btw, TG-based CMS doesn't seem in process; it was a
GSoC idea this year that no one is doing
00:48 < spevack> ok, this is a good task, and a very important one.
00:48 < quaid> if the TurboGears project says it's not really happening ...
00:48  * spevack was referring to the sitemap...
00:48 < quaid>
00:48 < quaid> right, sorry, jumping all over here
00:48 < spevack> ok, what else do we need to talk about tonight?
almost 1 AM for me and I am fading fast
00:49 < spevack> pagoda seems interesting
00:49  * quaid reads their trac instance
00:49 < ricky> Age: 8 months :-(
00:50 < spevack> what else, guys?  any other business people want to bring up?
00:51 < JonRob> silence is golden!
00:52 < spevack> ok, then i declare this meeting over.
00:52  * JonRob hopes spevack logged again?
00:52 < ricky> I have a log if you need it
00:52 < spevack> I have some thinking/reorganizing/etc of our task
list to do this week.  I think we need to cull the chaff, and focus on
planet and other L&F, spins, and www and that's it.
00:53  * spevack will try to get something together for folks to think
on this week
00:53 < spevack> JonRob: i'll send you the log.
00:53 < spevack> ===== MEETING OVER =====
00:53 < spevack> thanks for coming, everyone!
00:53 < JonRob> cool cheers
00:53 < spevack> really appreciate your time
00:53 < ricky> Thanks

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