"Default" spin of Fedora

Mon Jun 16 01:36:59 UTC 2008

Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Máirín Duffy wrote 
> (https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-June/msg00166.html):
>> There is no such thing as a "GNOME LiveCD". The "Desktop Spin" or "Desktop
>> LiveCD" is GNOME. 
> 
> That's a naming issue which, while I think it is important (i.e. that this 
> naming is stupid and biased), is not really relevant to this discussion.

No, it's not a naming issue, it was a deliberate decision. I was not 
involved in that decision so please refrain from taking it out on me. 
Thanks.
> 
> Karsten 'quaid' Wade wrote 
> (https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-June/msg00160.html):
>>  1. We have to trust our usability experts, just as they trust us to
>> {code,package,document,administrate,etc.}.
> [snip]
>> 3. Some of our usability experts are in fact GNOME UI folks, so it is
>> no surprise if their philosophy matches GNOME.
> 
> Don't we have any less biased people we could trust? It's obvious that GNOME 
> UI folks have a vested interest in hiding all non-GNOME choices.

Gee, thanks. I'm biased because I think:

1) The desktop spin of Fedora is GNOME-based.
2) The default desktop of Fedora is GNOME.
3) The most popular download of Fedora is the x86 Desktop Spin (which, 
from #1, happens to be GNOME-based)
4) There are far more maintainers of GNOME involved in Fedora than KDE.
5) A beginner choosing the Fedora desktop environment with more 
maintainers and support seems likely to have a better experience than a 
beginner that chooses the desktop with less maintainers and support.
6) Overwhelming new users with multiple permutations of Fedora to 
download is probably a bad idea from a usability perspective.
7) The get Fedora page has traditionally been too complicated because it 
is so cluttered and the websites team have received many complaints to 
this effect.

I don't know, those seem to be pretty objective and logical statements 
to me. But, you know, whatever. Apparently I'm not a responsible 
designer. I suppose I should just give up now since you've written me 
off. Are there any other "unbiased" designers who would like to step up 
in my place? There's certainly a lot of other things I could be doing 
with my time.
> 
>>  4. KDE has a chicken-egg problem when it comes to getting wider usage
>> in Fedora, one which was improved but not solved by the Core/Extras
>> merger and strength of the KDE SIG.
> 
> I believe KDE in Fedora has many more users than you seem to believe.

We chose the desktop spin, which happens to be GNOME, based on website 
statistics indicating that it was the most popular download. Please 
argue that with apache or whatever was collecting the statistics, not 
me. Thanks.
> 
> I wonder if we have any reliable usage stats there. I've seen the Mugshot 
> stats, but unfortunately they suffer from heavy selection bias because 
> Mugshot is closely connected to GNOME. They also do not capture stats for the 
> average user, only for the small group of people who use Mugshot.

Shall I pull out my violin?
> 
>> Perhaps we need a changing "focus box" to bring such attention to SIG work, 
>> etc.

We have a rotating banner series on the front page of FPO. The KDE SIG 
as of yet has not submitted a request for a banner to the art team nor 
has any collateral for said banner to link for been developed AFAIK.
> 
> While I think this is a good idea, I also think KDE really doesn't belong to 
> such a "focus box" only, but should be presented in the same way GNOME is.

You will need to take this up with the Board. Maybe if I keep repeating 
this, it will help. You've only been told to do so by myself and Mike 
McGrath in two other emails on this list so maybe it bears repeating.
> 
>> The simple method we've chosen is to make a choice for the page viewer,
>> at the same time making alternatives obviously available.  Compared to
>> "all links you might want on one page" and variations there-of, this
>> simple method is superior and the one we are proceeding with right now.
> 
> As I said right when starting this thread (when I asked whether we want to 
> designate a "default" spin of Fedora at all) I consider "all links you might 
> want on one page" to be the correct solution.
> 
> What I'd keep from Juank's mockup is the added descriptions (though the one 
> for the so-called "Desktop Live" is still missing the word "GNOME" in his 
> mockup), and I'd simply point the big "download Fedora now" link on the front 
> page to get-fedora, not to a particular spin.

One of the goals of the website design, the top goal actually 
overwhelmingly in a collective vote of the websites team, was to provide 
a one click download to getting Fedora and we had collectively decided 
that the x86 desktop spin was the one that should be liked there: 
https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-marketing-list/2008-May/msg00094.html

You are suggesting we should drop that goal because there are two 
desktops and it's unfair to favor GNOME?

I'm sorry, but you will make no progress arguing this with me or the 
websites team. You need to take this up with the Board. That you are 
continuing to argue this with me on this list where you can make no 
progress but will only cause people to get upset is not very mature or 
responsible, is it?
> 
> 
> Máirín Duffy wrote 
> (https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-June/msg00161.html):
>> Problem is, I go and download Fedora and end up with say KDE and I love it.
>> I tell my friend to go and download it, and they end up with GNOME. 
> 
> I don't see a problem there. In that hypothetical scenario, you both tried a 
> version of Fedora, or ideally tried both and picked the one you liked best, 
> but in any case ended up with a version you like. That's the niceness of 
> choice, different people have different tastes, and they can all be made 
> happy. Nobody here wants to take GNOME away from you, we just want KDE to get 
> the equal treatment it deserves.

Yes, there is a problem. The Fedora experience is two very separate 
experiences. I can't support my friend because I'm not even using the 
same desktop, and if I'm a beginner I may not even understand that. It 
may be difficult for me to get help.
> 
> I realize that being involved with GNOME, you want GNOME to succeed, but 
> please try to understand that being involved with KDE, I want KDE to succeed 
> too. ;-) (And of course other KDE SIG members want that too, see e.g. 
> Sebastian Vahl's reply.)

I'm hardly involved with GNOME these days. GNOME is my desktop of 
preference but, contrary to your belief, I am a responsible & 
professional designer. I had nothing to do with the decision to make 
GNOME the default desktop; this was decided long before I was ever a Red 
Hat employee. I also had no involvement in producing the statistics that 
indicated the Fedora desktop x86 spin as being the most downloaded spin. 
Accusing me of irresponsibility in my design work because I happen to be 
involved in the GNOME project is pretty immature, Kevin. I have done 
nothing wrong to you but stated plain facts.
> 
>> You're going to have a better experience if you use GNOME as a newbie
>> because it has an exponentially larger number of maintainers and folks able
>> to help with it.  
> 
> We (KDE SIG) have been successfully recruiting more and more KDE maintainers 
> (mostly volunteers, but Red Hat hiring Lukáš Tinkl was also a great move) 
> since the Core/Extras Merge. We already went from 1 KDE maintainer before the 
> merge to 4 core package maintainers, 1 Live CD maintainer and a few 
> application maintainers, and that number is only going to grow.

Perhaps the KDE SIG is growing, but the number of people involved 
seriously pales in comparison to the number of people involved in GNOME 
in Fedora and at Red Hat.
This is just a cold, hard fact.

>> I think a call-out box to highlight various spins on the get Fedora page is 
>> fine and I do believe that was even in some of the mockups. The KDE spin
>> could certainly be in that rotation. 
> 
> The KDE spin deserves a permanent mention, it should not get rotated away.

Why?

I only want what is best for new Fedora users. GNOME is the default 
desktop in Fedora. That is something I did not decide, that is something 
I have no choice in. So please stop taking it out on me. Please be 
respectful. I am taking that as a given. If KDE was the default desktop, 
my opinion on the design of the page would be exactly the same. I don't 
really care either way, but I want new users to have one obvious choice 
so their experience is as streamlined as possible. More advanced users 
that know enough to care will of course be provided access to other options.

Throwing too many options at the very new users you are trying to usher 
into Fedora and make it as easy as possible to start using Fedora is a 
terrible, terrible idea. If the websites team as designers make an 
exception for KDE, then we'll have other spins asking for exceptions. 
KDE can be part of a rotating banner and if it is really that important 
to you, we can weigh it more heavily than the other banners. By no 
means, however,do I think it's a good idea to place the GNOME and KDE 
desktops on equal footing on the get Fedora page. The distinction is 
meaningless to the new users we are trying so desperately to attract, 
and the argument that they are equal is also moot because GNOME is the 
default desktop and thus are NOT equal.

I think you owe me an apology. I'll be happy to accept your actually 
going to the Board rather than engaging in a long, drawn-out flame war 
as an apology. Please do so.

~m