Meeting Log - 2008-05-26

[Ricky Zhou]

17:59 < spevack> ******* BEGIN Fedora Websites Meeting *******
17:59 < spevack> roll call please
17:59 < spevack> MaxSpevack
17:59 < tw2113> Michael Beckwith
17:59  * ianweller 
17:59 < JonRob> JonathanRoberts
17:59 < ivazquez> IgnacioVazquezAbrams
18:00 < spevack> anyone else?
18:00  * spevack waits until :01
18:00 < JonRob> is anyone logging?
18:00 < spevack> i am
18:00 -!- wolfy [n=lonewolf at fedora/wolfy] has left #fedora-meeting ["If you look like your passport picture, you probably need the trip!"]
18:00 < JonRob> cool, and spevack: would you like me to do minutes again?
18:00 < spevack> JonRob: that would be wonderful :)
18:01 < spevack> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Meetings/2008-05-26
18:01 < JonRob> np
18:01 < spevack> already started for you
18:01 < spevack> JonRob: thank you so muc!
18:01 < spevack> er, much
18:01 < JonRob> heh
18:01  * ricky 
18:01 -!- ryanlerch [n=ryan at 203.34.177.232] has joined #fedora-meeting
18:01 < spevack> ok, well let's get things rolling.
18:01 < spevack> hi ricky
18:01 < spevack> hi ryanlerch
18:01 < ryanlerch> hi
18:01 < spevack> Let's start by talking about the wiki migration, since that happens in the next 24 hours
18:01 < spevack> actually, it's already happening
18:02 < spevack> ianweller, ricky: the floor is yours
18:02 < ianweller> everything's pretty much going swimmingly so far
18:02  * mmcgrath is here
18:02 < spevack> hey mike
18:02 < ricky> For auth, we'll be using basic auth (limited to cla_done) until we get OpenID + MW integration in a better state.
18:02 < mmcgrath> spevack: happy memorial day :)
18:03 < spevack> mmcgrath: thanks.
18:03 < spevack> quick question about a few things:
18:03 < spevack> So once the second migration, of pages that are changed today, is done, then the old wiki
18:03 < spevack> moves officially to wikiold, is set read-only, etc?
18:04 < mmcgrath> <nod
18:04  * jds2001 
18:04 < spevack> I saw a lot of announcements about tomorrow's process, which is great, but the one that i didn't see was "after XX:YY time, everything on Moin is frozen and can no longer be edited"
18:04 < spevack> did i just miss that one?
18:04 < rsc> RobertScheck - sorry, a bit late.
18:04 -!- sereinity [n=sereinit at mon69-3-82-235-39-70.fbx.proxad.net] has quit "su -c'rm -rf /'"
18:05 < ianweller> i'm not sure if there is a set time, yet
18:05 < mmcgrath> spevack: it wasn't in the announcement but I'll make sure to add it to the "its done" announcement.
18:05 < spevack> anyway, it's not too important.  people will figure it out when they see the new wiki :)
18:05 < ianweller> heh
18:05 < spevack> mmcgrath: you guys happy with how the migration script worked?
18:06 < spevack> i was poking around and things looked pretty darn good
18:06 < jds2001> should we throw something on the main page for a bit
18:06 < jds2001> since auth has changed?
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18:06 < ianweller> we could put an announcement.
18:06 < mmcgrath> spevack: oh I'll never be happy with that thing, but its better then making everyone do everything manually.
18:06 < ianweller> mmcgrath: weren't you going to change the realm in auth_basic?
18:06 < spevack> ok, so here's my question on this topic, as it pertains to the Fedora Websites meeting -- what does this group of people need to do that isn't already planned for in the process?  Is there anything other than general awareness that we need to talk about here?
18:07 < mmcgrath> ianweller: yeah, I'll do that now.
18:07  * ianweller takes the floor
18:07 < ricky> mmcgrath, ianweller: I changed it to "Fedora Wiki" from "fedorahosted" (or whatever) a while back, if that's what you're talking about.
18:07 < mmcgrath> actually should be done.
18:08 < ianweller> ricky: oh i just haven't seen. thanks
18:08 < ianweller> anywho, other than general awareness, i think quaid has setup a to-do page
18:08  * spevack waits for ianweller to issue us some orders ;)
18:08 < ianweller> https://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/FedoraProject:Wiki_migration_to-do
18:08 -!- daMaestro [n=jon at fedora/damaestro] has quit "Leaving"
18:09 < ianweller> the first thing that needs to be done is to put all the bugs that we have right now on that page.
18:09 < spevack> ianweller: are those bugs tracked somewhere else right now... or are the bugs that people find meant to be logged on that page?
18:09 < jds2001> .ticket 31
18:09 < zodbot> jds2001: #31 (New Wiki) - Fedora Infrastructure - Trac - https://fedorahosted.org/projects/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/31
18:09 < ricky> There are some that need to be moved from the ticket.
18:10 < ianweller> these are things that the migration masters don't need to do
18:10 < mmcgrath> and there are some that are just listed with the "WIKI" keyword.
18:10 < ianweller> individuals can do them/need to do them
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18:11 < quaid> in parallel, we MUST get a deeply clear list of what is what now, what user's need to do when they first come in to the new wiki, and so forth.
18:11 -!- fab [n=bellet at bellet.info] has quit Read error: 113 (No route to host)
18:11 < spevack> ok, i'm sorry, i'm a bit confused.
18:11 < quaid> which is https://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/FedoraProject:Wiki_migration_to-do#Individual_folks_to-do_list
18:11 < spevack> I'm looking at that ticket, and there are a lot of comments, with good information spread throughout.
18:11 < spevack> you're looking for someone to cull through all those comments
18:11 < spevack> and take the important stuff and move it to the wiki migration to do page?
18:11 < ianweller> anything that hasn't been fixed in ticket 31 should be put on that page, yes
18:11 < quaid> I think most of #31 is done
18:11 < quaid> ?
18:12 < quaid> ok, then we do need to parse it out to a single list.
18:12 < ianweller> right
18:12 < spevack> ianweller: ok, so who's the best person to take this task?
18:12 < ianweller> i don't know. who would like to do it?
18:12 < spevack> one of the wiki migration leaders, or are you looking for another volunteer to help out"
18:12 < spevack> ?
18:12 < ianweller> anyone could
18:12 < quaid> how do they know what is or isn't done?
18:12 < ianweller> oh, right....
18:13 < ianweller> i can do it, unless mmcgrath or ricky want to
18:13 < mmcgrath> yeah, we should have done the "WIKI" keyword from the start.  the only thing they can do now is look.
18:13 < jds2001> there's also obvious stuff
18:13 < ianweller> jds2001: correct
18:13 < ianweller> and the obvious stuff should be placed on https://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/FedoraProject:Wiki_migration_to-do now, iirc
18:13 < jds2001> like manually migratre /wiki/JonStanley to /wiki/User:jstanley
18:13 < spevack> ianweller, jds2001: do the two of you want to take this together?
18:14 < ianweller> sure
18:14 < quaid> jds2001: right, those are "individual folks to-do"
18:14 < jds2001> sure
18:14 < quaid> and that is the list what needs deep clarity
18:14 < spevack> jds2001 can do the obvious stuff, and ianweller can do the hard stuff :)
18:14 < ianweller> ok
18:14 < quaid> people need something like a combined checklist/task list with pointers
18:14 < quaid> then we'll know quickly what is missing, e.g. Help:Categories when you wish the content were there to link to :)
18:15 < spevack> my hunch is that as people start using the new wiki, they'll find the little bugs on the pages that they use the most, and get them fixed.
18:15 < spevack> ie: most people's personal pages will get fixed that way
18:15 < ricky> How can we take advantage of this opportunity to clear cruft?  :-)
18:15 < quaid> that's the method :)
18:15 < quaid> ricky: wait two weeks and look for what hasn't been touched?
18:16 < spevack> ricky: well, some subprojects used the migration as a chance to clear out old stuff before it happened.
18:16 < ricky> Ah, that's good.
18:16 < quaid> I'm wondering if we should take advantage of the opportunity to use MW features such as NameSpace:
18:16 < spevack> but i think it would be very interesting to look at all the wiki pages that haven't been touched one month from now
18:16 < spevack> and target all of them for deletion
18:16 < JonRob> yeah, i'd +1 that
18:16 < quaid> deletion, no
18:16 < ricky> It'd be a very large list, but with some human checking, +1
18:16 < spevack> and then after another month, anything that hasn't still been touched, just put out to pasture
18:16 < jds2001> i also think that now that we have 'Random page' in MW, gardners can just go looking random places and see if stuff makes sense  still
18:16 < spevack> quaid: not delete, but "set aside"
18:17 < quaid> put on a list
18:17 < quaid> we need to correlate with Apache logs
18:17 -!- themayor [n=jack at dsl081-200-011.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #fedora-meeting
18:17 < spevack> ok, so that's a new task to add to our list.
18:17 < quaid> people read pages with errors that no one fixes :)
18:17 < quaid> [D[C[D[D[C
18:17 < spevack> Determining abandoned wiki pages, and Doing The Right Thing with them
18:17 < ianweller> http://pastebin.ca/1029072 is a list of the 100 hottest pages since the 20th on the wiki.
18:17 < quaid> sorry, net drop
18:17 < spevack> quaid: do you want to be the owner of that task, since you are our Wiki Gardener?
18:18 < quaid> spevack: yep
18:18 < spevack> quaid: excellent.
18:18 < spevack> thank you!
18:18 < spevack> ok, ianweller -- anything else on the wiki migration, or shall we move on?
18:18 < quaid> in terms of immediate to-do lists
18:18 < quaid> for the wiki migration
18:18 < jds2001> We should do what wikipedia does, IMO with pages targeted for deletion
18:18 < jds2001> or am I being to process heavy?
18:18 < quaid> I'll also work on the FedoraProject:Wiki_migration_to-do#Individual_folks_to-do_list
18:18 < ianweller> quaid brought this up... using the mediawiki style of NameSpaces: and such
18:18 < quaid> but need help from everyone to make it full
18:18 < quaid> let me make this a bit clearer
18:18 < ianweller> for example, moving wiki-specific help pages to Help:
18:19 < quaid> no matter what happens tomorrow
18:19 < quaid> if we do NOT have clear directions for individuals,
18:19 < quaid> it will be perceived as "FAIL"
18:19 < quaid> ppl can accept broken stuff, but they don't want to be in the cold
18:19 < quaid> so this is where the "common bugs" stuff comes in
18:19 < ricky> One of my concerns is updating docs.
18:19 -!- bpepple|lt [n=bpepple|@rrcs-70-62-4-89.central.biz.rr.com] has quit "Ex-Chat"
18:19 < ianweller> and, if we want to take it a step farther, moving things for certain projects into new namespaces.... Infrastructure:, Artwork:, and the like
18:19 < spevack> quaid: we need a simple list of "here's what to check when you first log into the new wiki" and "here's where to file your bugs"
18:19 < quaid> right
18:19 < spevack> and then we blast that out to blogs, fedora-announce, etc
18:19 < ricky> When we released FAS, there was a long period where new contributors were confused about where to find things.
18:20 < quaid> that is more important than much of the rest of what we've been discussing, IMO
18:20 < ianweller> quaid: i agree
18:20 < spevack> and ianweller and jds2001 have volunteered to handle that topic, just a few moments ago?  But it's a very short timeframe to get it done at this point.
18:20 < quaid> OK, so I'll own making that the best it can be, but y'all need to help by dropping in as much raw content as I can handle; _anything_ a user needs to know or do should  be in there somewhere
18:20 < jds2001> i've got no plans tonight :)
18:21 < quaid> spevack: well, they agreed to handle the #31 stuff, which is not the same thing per se
18:21 < ianweller> i've been editing the crap out of Help:Editing (linked from the edit box, near the bottom)
18:21 < quaid> some crossover, but mostly that turns in to a Migration masters list
18:21 < quaid> +1 on that
18:21 < jds2001> well, the ticket 31 stuff and other trac tickets
18:21 < spevack> understood
18:21 < quaid> Help:Editing is the old WikiEditing
18:21 < jds2001> speaknig of filing bugs....
18:21 < quaid> so it continues to be our best place to point people looking for how-to
18:21 < jds2001> do we sedn them to infra trac
18:22 < quaid> with "WIKI" keyword
18:22 < jds2001> or should we make a new trac instance?
18:22 < spevack> quaid: well, i bet you could knock out the "simple individual todo list" in about an hour, right?  :)
18:22 < spevack> we could make most of it right here.
18:22 < spevack> right now
18:22 < quaid> spevack: the simple, yes; but I'm sure we'll find more
18:22 < mmcgrath> jds2001: for what?
18:22 < spevack> quaid: is it useful for us all to just start listing stuff here, and then you can just pull it together?
18:23  * spevack doesn't want to throw work at people on their Memorial Day evening
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18:23 < jds2001> mmcgrath: wiki bugreporting for users
18:23 < mmcgrath> jds2001: no, we don't want to do that :)
18:23 < quaid> I'll take a vote from the floor if they want to write all that up here, or just post it to the wiki directly *cough*
18:23 < mmcgrath> they can file it in infra
18:23 < quaid> +1 to file it in infra, this is a short-lived effort in comparison
18:23 < jds2001> yep
18:23 < spevack> quaid: you want it all to live here -- https://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/FedoraProject:Wiki_migration_to-do -- right?
18:24  * jds2001 withdraws hairbrained suggestion
18:24 < spevack> under "individual folks to do list"
18:24 < quaid> spevack: how about if I work on it right now, then at the end of the meeting people can take a few minutes to add to it
18:24 < quaid> spevack: yep
18:24 < spevack> quaid: sounds good.
18:24 < spevack> quaid: give people something to comment on, that's always the best way :)
18:24  * quaid hugs MW edit-per-section
18:24 < spevack> ok, we're moving on...
18:24 < ianweller> ok
18:24  * spevack consults the Tasks List
18:24 < quaid> I almost can't wait to see this puppy under a real load :)
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18:24 < spevack> get-fedora... Juan and Craig Thomas... either of you here?
18:25 < ricky> giarc and juank_prada
18:25 < quaid> Juan said he's out for a month?
18:25 < ricky> Seems not.
18:25 < JonRob> yeah
18:25 < JonRob> and i haven't heard from giarc - i thought he said he could make it
18:25 < spevack> I guess we'll just leave that for next week then.  maybe we can grab girac for next week's meeting
18:25 < spevack> JonRob: we'll poke him this week.
18:25 < mmcgrath> quaid: the best part about real load with mw... we actually have MULTIPLE options as far as caching and scaling goes :)
18:25 < spevack> we'll set spins.fp.o aside for the moment as well...
18:26 < JonRob> yeah...my plan was to poke people on list for progress reports pre-meeting so even if they can't make it we can keep things ticking over
18:26 < quaid> mmcgrath: as opposed to "no options"? :)
18:26 < ricky> Heh, yup.
18:26 < mmcgrath> :)
18:26 < spevack> I'm looking at Websites Infrastructure -- Ricky working on a list of things that will help to separate the infrastructure of keeping the websites running from the people who are doing design, mockups, and web development?
18:26 < spevack> is that a good summary?
18:26  * spevack likes the general idea there...
18:26 < spevack> ricky: you got anything to say on this?
18:27 < ricky> I wonder how big of a problem it is that we're not being clear about where the sources of things are?
18:27 < spevack> dev, staging, production -- just like a Real Project :)
18:27 -!- daMaestro [n=jon at fedora/damaestro] has joined #fedora-meeting
18:27 < ricky> Because no volunteers have ever asked the list about it :-(
18:28 < spevack> well, the DomainsList page did a good job of that
18:28 -!- spoleeba [n=one at fedora/Jef] has quit "Leaving"
18:28 < quaid> sometimes we don't know what we don't know until we see the sum of what we do know
18:28 < spevack> I think that is crucial for getting new web development contributors.
18:29 < ricky> Yeah, making it as easy to help as possible
18:29 < quaid> esp. less technical folks :)
18:29 < spevack> I think the next step should be a simple tutorial -- pretend you want to make a small change to some page -- here's how you do it.
18:29 < spevack> do we have anything like that yet?
18:29 < ricky> Nope, and that's a good idea.
18:29 < ianweller> screencast?
18:29 < JonRob> haha was about to suggest that :p
18:29 < spevack> ianweller: i don't know if it's a screencast as much as
18:29 < ricky> Right now, we have genshi, kid, and fragment HTML files cast about.
18:29 < spevack> you check out
18:30 < spevack> you make your change
18:30 < spevack> you test locally
18:30 < spevack> you commit
18:30 < spevack> then... ???
18:30 < spevack> and eventually production
18:30 < spevack> ok, is this a little task worth taking on?
18:30 < ricky> We should edit DomainsList to include contact informatino.
18:30 < ricky> **information
18:30 < ricky> Definitely
18:30 < spevack> ok, there's two tasks here that need owners
18:30 < quaid> question, ianweller can answer maybe:
18:30 < spevack> 1) contact informatino for DomainsList
18:31  * ricky can take 1)
18:31 < spevack> 2) "Becoming a Fedora Web Developer" tutorial.
18:31  * quaid actually takes his Question off meeting
18:31 < spevack> 2 shouldn't be crazy
18:31 < spevack> it should be just enough to get started
18:31 < spevack> and then feedback will fill in the gaps
18:31  * ricky invites everybody to gobby for #2
18:32 < spevack> ok, me steps away for a few minutes, but invites JonRob to discuss the next task -- New Look and Feel -- whenever we are ready for that topic.  /me brb
18:32 < JonRob> ok, urmm...well did people see the conversation on list?
18:33 < JonRob> i think the basic plan of attack, and i think mairin is taking a lead in this
18:33 < JonRob> is to do some usability testing on the site
18:33 < ianweller> ah, yes
18:33 < JonRob> and figure out where we're going wrong, before putting together some improved mock-ups based on feedback
18:34 < JonRob> people happy with this?
18:34 < JonRob> and are people willing to volunteer to help with usability tests?
18:34 < JonRob> we're gonna attempt remoteness
18:34 < mmcgrath> I'll be much happier as more and more stuff comes in and people get involved more (woot!)
18:34 < mether> JonRob: asking in fedora-list would certainly bring in a lot more complaints than you could ever want
18:34 < JonRob> mether: haha!
18:35 < spevack> JonRob: sign me up for a usability test
18:35 < JonRob> it's not just people to be tested, but people to do testing too
18:35 < spevack> actually, i really like the fedora-list idea
18:35 < spevack> you'll get lots of complaints
18:35 < spevack> but probably a handful of people really willing to do something
18:35 < tw2113> which is actually what we want
18:35 -!- epkphoto [n=epkphoto at ip72-218-42-185.hr.hr.cox.net] has joined #fedora-meeting
18:36 < jds2001> JonRob: sign me up for some usability study
18:36 < ianweller> i'll do some usability tests after this week's wiki switching headaches are over. however i'm not sure how good they'd be, since we're looking at 'new users', right?
18:36 < quaid> also we could set something up for each of the conferences we attend?
18:36 < jds2001> but not sure i'd be the best person
18:36 < epkphoto> sorry about that...a bit late
18:36 < JonRob> ianweller: not just new users, we wanna know aobut developers and all our targets
18:36 < ianweller> ah
18:36 < quaid> do we want this to be iterative?
18:36 < quaid> if so ....
18:36 < spevack> quaid: if stickster_afk and i have some time and remember it, we'll try to come up with some simple usability tests that people at LinuxTag can try
18:36 < ricky> epkphoto: Hey
18:37 < JonRob> spevack - that'd be cool!
18:37 < quaid> how about we work up at least a protocol if not a watching program that lets us give tests at confs?
18:37 < epkphoto> hi all
18:37 < ianweller> maybe do an app that tells you what to find, and then have them paste a link back in the app, with an option saying 'i didn't find it'
18:37 < quaid> then we can keep giving the same test
18:37 < JonRob> well, we kinda have that
18:37 < quaid> over the years and keep improving and stuff
18:37  * JonRob quickly looks for link
18:38 < JonRob> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-May/msg00320.html
18:38 < JonRob> i think
18:38 < JonRob> near the end of that message
18:40 < JonRob> are people still around?
18:40 < spevack> ok, so what specific tasks do we have here?
18:40 < ricky> Yeah.
18:40 < JonRob> lol sorry
18:40  * ianweller is lurking
18:40 < spevack> (1) potential usability study at Linuxtag, depending on time
18:40 < spevack> (2) ...?
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18:40  * JonRob fears a net drop
18:41 < tw2113> i'm mostly reading and trying to follow along
18:41 < ianweller> can we do something at FUDCon? not sure what demographics (experience-wise) we'll have
18:41 < quaid> 2) cook up a repeatable usability testing process, use it
18:41 < quaid> ianweller: yep
18:41 < quaid> ianweller: also the Summit is there, which widens the circle
18:42 < quaid> we could e.g. try to get something going at the RHT booth :)
18:42 < spevack> ianweller: that would be a great session for someone to lead at FUDCon -- hint, hint
18:42 < jds2001> we could do something at the fedora booth
18:42 < JonRob> quaid: do you not think that e-mail constitutes a repeatable test?
18:42  * ianweller shifts his eyes
18:42  * jds2001 is attending the summit and fudcon
18:42 < quaid> JonRob: got it, yes, +1
18:43 < quaid> maybe write it on the wiki and be sure it is a step-by-step for stupid people like me, max, and Paul
18:43 < JonRob> quaid: sure
18:43 < JonRob> i can cover that task if people'd like
18:44 < spevack> JonRob: sounds good!
18:44  * spevack consults the TaskList.....
18:44 < spevack> Licenses.  This should be quick.  either we've got an update or we don't, and wait another week.
18:45 < JonRob> urm...quaid you're upto date on this one!?
18:45 < spevack> what is it that we need license clarification on?
18:45  * spevack apologizes for having missed the previous meetings
18:45 < JonRob> spevack: websites code and content i think
18:45 < JonRob> primarily code though
18:46 < ricky> What is this blocking no?
18:46 < ricky> **on
18:46  * JonRob digs up another link
18:46 < ricky> All of that code was created recently enough that we still have instant contact with all of its creators.
18:47 < JonRob> ricky: well in that case we can surely turn to the board and ask for a recommendation?
18:47 < JonRob> i believe that was the conc reached last week
18:47 < ricky> Sure.
18:47 -!- smooge [n=smooge at int.smoogespace.com] has quit "-ENOCAFFEINE"
18:47 < JonRob> there's a thread on fab
18:47 < ricky> Recommendation, as in the type of license?
18:48 < JonRob> where basically it was decided that if we want to change license, we either need to change the code or have explicit permission
18:48  * quaid is back, sorry
18:48 < quaid> I don't see much confusion, realy
18:48 < quaid> we nee dpermissionk from all copyright holders
18:48 < quaid> is it worth it?
18:48 < quaid> I think so
18:49 < quaid> it improves on the Fedora as a "FLOSS infra in a box"
18:49 < ricky> So should we start identifying/asking?
18:49 < quaid> also, it may not be much of aa PITA
18:49 < quaid> let me ask ...
18:49 < ivazquez> Do we have a license yet?
18:49 < ricky> Or did we not get a license choice yet.
18:49 < ricky> **yet?
18:49 < quaid> folks wanted to ask legal, but I don't think we need to
18:49 < quaid> spot hasn't weighed in there, tho
18:50 < ricky> I wouldn't expect that we'd need to either
18:50 -!- ldimaggi_ [n=ldimaggi at c-76-19-171-76.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #fedora-meeting
18:50 < quaid> this is similar to what we went through with Docs relicensing, fwiw
18:50 < quaid> license choice ... do we want to have further discussion on list?
18:51  * quaid would vote for matching the rest of Infra, but knows it is a bit of a mix
18:51 < spevack> +1 to list... who's the Primary Owner?
18:51 < quaid> so whatever doesn't conflict with those so it is easiest to mix and match?
18:51 < quaid> JonRob asked originally ...
18:51  * spevack thinks that we have about 3 or 4 things on our Task List that can be knocked off in 1-2 weeks.
18:52 < quaid> but Infra might need to help to expose old commit logs, etc.
18:52  * JonRob volunteers somebody else, licensing is not really my thing!
18:52  * spevack can take it, but there won't be any progress this week, with LinuxTag in the forefront.
18:52  * quaid knows he doesn't have the time
18:53 < ricky> quaid: I think they're all public at git.fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-web.git and cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewcvs/?root=web (or similar)
18:53 < spevack> JonRob: give it to me for now.
18:53 < JonRob> is that ok?
18:53 < spevack> yep
18:53 < JonRob> not just that licenses aren't my thing, but i have exams in less than a week
18:53 < quaid> ricky: yes, I think you are right; anything pre cvs.fp.org is (C) Red Hat anyway
18:53 < spevack> JonRob: no worries!
18:53 < JonRob> need to spend a lot of time in the library!
18:53 < spevack> there are a few things on the task list dealing with Sponsorship in the new Wiki world.
18:54 < spevack> anything here we need to discuss in this meeting?
18:54 < JonRob> yep, quaid is king of this :p
18:54  * spevack still doesn't quite get *what* we are sponsoring
18:54  * spevack notes that it is POURING RAIN here in Amsterdam, but still cool :)
18:55 < ricky> This is separate from Infrastructure sponsorship?
18:55 < ivazquez> Yeah, what is this sponsorship stuff about anyways?
18:55 < spevack> quaid: what is this Sponsorship and Mediawiki stuff?  :)
18:55  * jds2001 wondering the same thing
18:55 < JonRob> lol the idea is to have each page owned/sponsored by a sig
18:55 < JonRob> or subproject
18:55 < ricky> Ahh.
18:55 < ianweller> (or an individual, i think)
18:56 < spevack> and the benefit of that is...?
18:56 < jds2001> does this take into account spoleba's idea
18:56 < quaid> sponsorship was the word we chose last week
18:56 < ricky> So somebody would commit to taking care of those pages?
18:56 < ivazquez> How is this recorded?
18:56 < quaid> since ownership was seend as scaring people away
18:56 < ianweller> i don't see how it would benefit.
18:56 < quaid> ivazquez: one way is in a comment block in the markup source, so it is there to see when editing
18:56 < quaid> ok, let's see ...
18:56 < quaid> can any of you who were not here last week
18:56 < ivazquez> It's so that we have somewhere to point when the wiki starts bitrotting.
18:56 < quaid> read the log from then?
18:56 < quaid> or I can just paste that part back in ...
18:57 < ianweller> i was here from last week, i still don't see the benefit :/
18:57 < quaid> ok, then
18:57  * quaid gathers his brain cells for a new direction
18:57 < spevack> last week's log -- https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-May/msg00268.html
18:57 < quaid> it's a lesson from other's with successful wikis
18:57 < quaid> pages that no one feels a sense responsibility for tend to rot
18:58 < quaid> it's a hard part of wikis that have no CMS workflow, page aging, etc.
18:58 < quaid> so the suggestion is to e.g. write a new module
18:58 < quaid> that let's us have a dbase of pages and which group is sponsoring them
18:58 < ivazquez> We should put it in the metadata somewhere.
18:58 < ricky> If we're doing groups, why not use namespaces + comments in the text?
18:58 < quaid> right, I don't know what the best method is
18:58 < ianweller> i think we can mashup some builtin MW tools. templates, categories, and special pages
18:59 < ivazquez> Presumably if it's in the metadata then we can query it.
18:59  * spevack wonders if the things we talked about earlier, which is just querying every month to see what pages weren't touched, can solve this problem in a less process-heavy way.  My fear is that whatever you call it -- sponsorship, ownership -- people will feel like they can't just up and edit a page like Back In The Day.
18:59 < spevack> that's just my gut... but i'm only here to Drive The Meeting :)
19:00  * jds2001 thinks spevack is right on
19:00  * ianweller agrees
19:00 < quaid> ok, that is a legit concern
19:00 < ivazquez> In the worse case someone can send email to the sponsor. *shrug*
19:00 < quaid> that is why we are looking for ways to not heavily badge a page
19:00 < ianweller> we could write up other tools that check for rotting pages.
19:00 < quaid> but there is some value in making content look loved, such as having a SIG badge on the page
19:00 < ianweller> or, i think there are even Special: pages for that
19:00 < quaid> I had a specific suggestion las tweek, like ...
19:00 < jds2001> maybe sending mail to the last editor or somethign
19:00 < spevack> If the problem that we are trying to solve is Page Rot, then that's fine.
19:01 < spevack> there's ways to solve that.
19:01 < quaid> "You are welcome to edit this page. If you have any questions, it is sponsored by the Astronomy SIG."
19:01 < spevack> Are there other benefits to the Sponsorship of Pages idea aside from avoiding Page Rot?
19:01 < quaid> spevack: there is more here being solved
19:01 < quaid> yes
19:01 < JonRob> i really like the idea of having an easy point of contact for new editors
19:01 < quaid> * Give readers a sense that the page is real and not abandoned
19:01 < quaid> (without having to drag through the history and crap, since that is hidden more in MW)
19:01  * epkphoto likes quaid's suggested text
19:01 < spevack> at the bottom of each page -- "Got a question about something on this page?  Email $FOO"
19:01 < JonRob> so they can see who owns/sponsors page, and then easily shout for hlep to someone who cares
19:01 < quaid> s/*/1./
19:02 < quaid> 2. Make it clear who should be considered when editing a page; edits are a responsibility not a right
19:02 < quaid> 3. Grow the SIG identity, which might be a good reason to use SIG: namespaces
19:03 < quaid> 4. As JonRob said, make it clear where to go with questions about a page, etc.
19:03 < quaid> eol
19:03 < quaid> right now I think people fear editing a page because they _don't_ know who to ask about it
19:03  * JonRob used to be like this
19:03 < ivazquez> Is multiple sponsorship likely to be useful?
19:04 < quaid> many times people aren't aware that people watch page edits and cover their back
19:04 < quaid> folks paste edits in to emails to "announce" them, etc.
19:04 < ianweller> we can do this with a template. {{sponsoredby|websites}} could put the message at teh bottom of the page, and add a category like [[Category:Pages sponsored by Websites]]
19:04 < quaid> that stuff should be up front -- you are being lovingly watched
19:04  * ianweller says that we should push 'lovingly', 'you are being watched' tends to deter.
19:05 < quaid> well, something like that
19:05 < quaid> '
19:05 < quaid> "Don't worry, dear, mother is watching to make sure you don't stumble."
19:05 < ricky> Heh.
19:05 < tw2113> we're all norman bates?
19:05 < tw2113> kidding
19:06 < spevack> ok, here's a proposal for a +1/-1
19:06 < epkphoto> "Leave this page nicer than you found it.  The $SIG would thank you"
19:06 < spevack> We've been tracking edits to the wiki for a while now.
19:06 < quaid> tw2113: you know, I was thinking that in such a voice :)
19:06 < spevack> this month will be weird
19:06 < spevack> but we've established a pretty good track record
19:06 < spevack> around 1200 per month
19:07 < spevack> let's try whatever quaid thinks is best.
19:07 < spevack> we'll see how our edits are doing 2 months from now
19:07 < quaid> epkphoto: that is nice
19:07 < spevack> http://fedoraproject.org/maps/wiki-edits/
19:07 < spevack> thoughts?
19:07 < spevack> epkphoto: +1
19:08 < ricky> +1 for epkphoto's
19:08 < quaid> spevack: I missed the proposal, was it, "Let's see how the edits are and consider page sponsorship at that point"?
19:08 < jds2001> epkphoto: +1
19:08 < epkphoto> hehe, thanks guys
19:08 < spevack> quaid: it's "let's do whatever sponsorship process quaid wants, and see what it does to the edit statistivcs we've been tracking after 2 months of it"
19:08 < quaid> ah, ok
19:08 < spevack> then re-evaluate
19:08 < ivazquez> +1
19:08 < ricky> Sounds good.
19:09 < ianweller> works for me, +1
19:09 < quaid> this ties in to the question of the day:
19:09 < quaid> are we having people fix status quo _or_ are we having them move to a new scheme right away?
19:09 < ianweller> explain
19:09 < quaid> ok
19:10 < quaid> it's one thing to have people fix page formatting and think about moving UserName to User:fasname
19:10 < quaid> another idea is to have people start moving, grouping, namespacing, categorizing, and sponsoring from tomorrow forward.
19:10  * JonRob must leave now
19:10 < quaid> we could possibly do the latter in stages, but that would be ultimately more work
19:10 < mmcgrath> quaid: I go back and forth about that type of question a lot.  Do it ALL at once, or do some of it in steps.
19:10 < mmcgrath> I never figured out what'd work best :-/
19:10 < ivazquez> We don't even have the sponsorship scheme hashed out yet.
19:10 < quaid> mmcgrath: 'zact
19:10 < ianweller> we don't have an schemes for anything hashed out quite yet either
19:11 < quaid> ivazquez: right, my orig thought was to work on it
19:11  * ianweller notes this could be a long night :/
19:11 < ricky> We should have some guidelines for organization.
19:11 < quaid> so best is, fix status quo
19:11 < quaid> and begin to get people to roll over to new changes as we go
19:11 < JonRob> (spevack, could you throw me the log tomor? i'll minute it up asap)
19:11 < ricky> Definitely, but we'll have to get those guidelies.
19:11 < quaid> that will take longer, but we'll learn iteratively instead of under constant firedrill
19:11 < ivazquez> If status quo is pretty much all we currently have, then we should roll with it.
19:11  * tw2113 noticed that /wikinew/User:FAS2 doesn't actually show the page, but /wikinew/FAS2 does
19:11 < ianweller> this week, fix status quo, next week, make organization guidelines, following week, listen to feedback and implement?
19:11 < spevack> JonRob: no problem
19:12 < quaid> ivazquez: we could do some stuff; e.g. Docs:Security_Guide instead of Security_Guide as we have it now
19:12 < JonRob> spevack, thanks
19:12  * JonRob waves goodbye
19:12 < ricky> JonRob: See you
19:12 < ianweller> JonRob: bye
19:12 -!- JonRob [n=jon at 88-109-167-15.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has left #fedora-meeting []
19:12 < quaid> ivazquez: yeah, like that +1
19:12 < quaid> seems sanest
19:12 < quaid> not "best in the best world of all best worlds" but good enough
19:12 < ricky> tw2113: Show what page?
19:12 < tw2113> the user page
19:12 < quaid> tw2113: right
19:12 < quaid> tw2113: you need to move it
19:12 < ricky> Ohh, where FAS2 is the username.
19:13 < tw2113> i did
19:13 < quaid> oh
19:13 < ivazquez> Works fine here.
19:13 < quaid> only User:kwade and User:Kwade work for me
19:14 < quaid> tw2113: did you move it to FAS2 or User:FAS2 ?
19:14 < tw2113> https://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/User:Tw2113, i see "A WikiName is a word that uses capitalized words. WikiName's automagically become hyperlinks to the WikiName's page. See also HelpForBeginners, "Arbitrary Page Names"."
19:14 < tw2113> probably just FAS2
19:14 < quaid> yeah, User: is a "special page"
19:14 < ianweller> no, User: is a namespace
19:14 < quaid> sorry, right
19:14 < tw2113> https://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/Tw2113 <-----what i thought was right
19:14 < ricky> tw2113: Wait, that appeared without any action from you?
19:15 < ianweller> maybe this should be dealt with outside meeting?
19:15  * spevack needs to go, since it's 1:15 AM and I have to make a plane tomorrow.  Can you guys finish up this last topic?
19:15 < ricky> tw2113: Moving it now.
19:15 < ricky> (https://fedoraproject.org/wikinew/User:Tw2113)
19:15 < quaid> I think we did
19:16  * spevack isn't trying to kill the discussion, just saying that I need to head out :)
19:16 < quaid> ianweller's scheme ran with it
19:16 < quaid>  this week, fix status quo, next week, make organization guidelines,
19:16 < quaid>                    following week, listen to feedback and implement?
19:16 < quaid>  this week, fix status quo, next week, make organization guidelines,
19:16 < quaid>                    following week, listen to feedback and implement?
19:16 < quaid> sorry
19:16 < tw2113> thanks
19:16 < ianweller> is that the current issue to vote on?
19:16 < spevack> sounds reasonable to me
19:16 < ricky> I think we already all agree :-)
19:16 < quaid> +1 to that scheme
19:16 < quaid> k
19:16 < ivazquez> Indeed.
19:17 < quaid> I have other things that don't need a meeting so ...
19:17  * ricky suggests another gobby document for that.
19:17 < ianweller> +1
19:17 < spevack> Alright, well we'll officially adjourn (and I'll say goodnight) and thank you all for your time, especially those of you for whom today is a holiday
19:17 < ivazquez> Alright, let's close it up then.
19:17 < mmcgrath> Side note about confusion....
19:18 < mmcgrath> quaid: Would you mind working with me tomorrow morning (a little prior to noon) to come up with a good final note to send when the final switch is done?
19:18 < mmcgrath> it'd be good to have some eyes on it.
19:18 < quaid> mmcgrath: +1
19:18 < ricky> Oh, while we have websites people around, I have an unrelated question (which has probably been asked to death before)
19:19 < ricky> Have we ever contacted fedora.org and if so, what kind of response have we gotten?
19:19 < spevack> they aren't interested in selling :)
19:19 < quaid> I'll send another mid-update to f-devel-announce so people know we intend to give them next word tomorrow in the nighttime UTC
19:19 < ricky> Ah, OK.  Just making sure, thanks.
19:19 < spevack> but they know that if they ever are, Red Hat will make them an offer
19:19  * ianweller +1 for closing meeting, i think everything else can be dealt with elsewhere
19:20 < spevack> ok all -- i'll catch you from LinuxTag
19:20 < quaid> note to self -- do domain search first ...
19:21 < ricky> quaid: Hehe.
19:21 < daMaestro> spevack, cya
19:21 < ricky> spevack: Have fun!
19:22 < ianweller> so is there something we're talking about right now? /me is lost
19:22 < quaid> we finished the meeting
19:22 < ianweller> ok.
19:22 < quaid> </meeting>
19:22 < quaid> and should return to somewhere to let me ask more stupid questions :)
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