Meeting Log - 2008-11-10

[Ricky Zhou]

20:24 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Fedora Websites Meeting
20:25 < ricky> ivazquez, ianweller_afk, mizmo, anybody I missed: ping
20:25 < ivazquez> Pong.
20:26 < ricky> Ooookaay then.  Let's get started.
20:26 < ricky> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Tasks
20:26 < ricky> quaid: ping - any updates on CMS searching?
20:26 < mizmo> ricky, pong
20:26 < ricky> Woo
20:27 < ricky> Guess not - docs is pretty busy with release stuff around now
20:27 < ricky> mizmo: Do you know what the status of myfedora is?
20:27 < mizmo> ricky, ive been working on css bugs today
20:27 < mizmo> ricky, my deadline for that is the 12th
20:28 < ricky> Ah, cool.
20:28 < mizmo> beyond that, im not sure. we'll definitely be needing to do design & planning for beyond but i dont know when J5 / lmacken want to start on that
20:28 < mizmo> i dont think we've gotten a lot of user feedback unfortunately :(
20:28 < ricky> Any idea roughly when it'll be ready to deploy?
20:29 -!- ke4qqq_ [n=ke4qqq at uclug.org] has quit "Lost terminal"
20:29 < mizmo> ricky, nope :(
20:29 < mizmo> it's on public test 16 now
20:29 < ricky> All right - no problem
20:29 < mizmo> but thats all i know
20:29 < mizmo> :( sorry!
20:30 < ricky> If you need any help with CSS, etc. feel free to poke websites-list
20:31 < ricky> So relase update: we're hopefully string-frozen for F10.  I'll try to get the tagline from marketing-list in as well today
20:31 < ricky> So the big thing to discuss: the new get-fedora
20:31 < mizmo> sure
20:32 < ricky> Here's what we have for now: http://publictest15.fedoraproject.org/get-fedora
20:32 < ricky> We probably need some icons for the buttons
20:32 < ricky> Does that seem pretty clear/simple for users?
20:32 < rsc> there are scrolling bars inside of the page...that's worse.
20:33 < rsc> to me the new page is more confusing ;)
20:33 < ricky> rsc: Blech - can you send a screenshot?  I'll take a look in a bit
20:33 < mizmo> ricky, i think we should hide the other download options,
20:33 < ricky> Which other options?
20:33 < mizmo> ricky, like, hide the div with javascript, make the 'let me look around' the link to trigger it visible
20:33 < mizmo> ricky, at the bottom of the page
20:34 -!- tw2113 [n=tw2113 at fedora/tw2113] has joined #fedora-meeting
20:34 < ricky> tw2113: Hey
20:34 < mizmo> altho
20:34 < mizmo> maybe that section could be deemphasized in a better way
20:34 < tw2113> websites mtg right?
20:34 < ricky> Yup
20:34 < mizmo> like maybe take the light tan bg off of the upgrade section, and stick it on the other download options section
20:34 < tw2113> MichaelBeckwith
20:34 < mizmo> greyish backgrounds tend to de-emphasize
20:34 < rsc> ricky: http://labs.linuxnetz.de/get-fedora.png
20:35 -!- mether [n=sundaram at 59.96.22.184] has quit Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
20:35 < ricky> rsc: Thanks - I'll probably ask you to test another version a bit later
20:35 < mizmo> that's really wonky rsc
20:35 < mizmo> id put overflow: hidden
20:35 < mizmo> to stop it
20:35 < mizmo> rsc, what screen resolution do you have?
20:35 < ricky> Yeah, that should fix it
20:35 < rsc> mizmo: 1024x768 but the wide screen variant of that.
20:36  * ricky should send out a call for browser testing
20:36 < rsc> mizmo: so you definately missed testing with usual 1024x768
20:36 < ricky> rsc: Does http://sphe.res.cmu.edu/get-fedora work?
20:36 < mizmo> rsc, weird, i did the original mockup on a 1024x768 laptop
20:36 < ricky> rsc: we haven't done much browser testing yet :-/  Been concentrating on content mostly
20:37 < mizmo> rsc, does http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/webdesign/get-fedora/ scroll too?
20:37 < rsc> ricky: better, yes.
20:37 < ricky> mizmo: I might have changed some paddings, etc. to cause the problem
20:37 < mizmo> could be
20:37 < rsc> mizmo: no, but seems to have a fixed width, while ricky has not.
20:37 < ricky> I tried to make it take up more of the screen
20:37 < mizmo> do a diff between the two and maybe the problem will be easier to find im thinking
20:37 < mizmo> ah okay
20:38 < ricky> I think you overflow: hidden; fix worked
20:38 < rsc> I'm still not in favor about having the live stuff as first option there.
20:38 < ricky> But yeah, for anybody that's reading, test in as many browsers as you can get access to
20:38 < mizmo> yeh its good not to waste space
20:38 -!- mether [n=sundaram at 59.96.22.184] has joined #fedora-meeting
20:39 < ricky> mether: Hey, if you're around, we're looking at the new get-fedora (http://publictest15.fedoraproject.org/get-fedora) - you always have a lot of suggestions :-)
20:39 < ricky> mizmo: Do you think the KDE page should have a DVD link as well?
20:40 < ricky> A KDE user could upgrade from the DVD, but I'm not sure if it belongs on that page.
20:40 < ricky> Also, do you think we need to be clearer about what combos don't exist?
20:40 < ivazquez> I think it should. We don't want to give KDE users a reason to complain.
20:40 < ricky> For example, there are no Live CDs for PPC
20:40 < mizmo> ricky, yeh i think the dvd link would be fine for kde
20:40 < ricky> All right, I'll add that back - thankfully the strings will be the same.
20:40 < tw2113> remove some clicks for the weird KDE fans
20:40 < mizmo> ricky, just show the dvd for ppc and have a statement at the bottom saying so live cd is available
20:41 < ricky> if anybody has any string changes, please give them now - I can hopefully sneak in one or two more
20:41 < ivazquez> "Upgrade to Fedora 10 from an Older Fedora" should probably be "Upgrade to Fedora 10 from an older version".
20:42 < mether> ricky: i was suggesting adding the logos to the blue boxes on the side earlier
20:42  * ricky makes some of these changes to see how it looks
20:42 < mether> ricky: example, where it says "KDE fans, go here", add the gears logo to the left
20:43 < ivazquez> Why doesn't the KDE page mention KDE at all?
20:43 < ivazquez> In fact, it talks about GNOME.
20:43 < ricky> ivazquez: Oops, I missed that
20:43 < mether> ricky: and instead of the fedora logo on the cd cover, we can have the kde logo there instead
20:44 < mether> also, it isnt clear from the page that live cd's are installable
20:44 < mizmo> "It's everything you need to try out Fedora—and if you like it, install it right from the desktop! "  ? mether ^^
20:44 < ricky> Here's a version implementing some of the changes suggested: http://sphe.res.cmu.edu/en/get-fedora
20:44 < ivazquez> And some more bike-shedding: "4.3GB, ISO format, 1 DVD disc image for PowerPC-compatible PCs"... "PCs" should probably be "computers".
20:45 < mether> mizmo: i dont see that sentence in the get kde page i am looking at
20:45 < mizmo> mether, ah okay
20:45 < mizmo> it should probably be copied over from the front page
20:45 < mizmo> ivazquez, +1
20:45 < ricky> Changed
20:46 < ricky> Oh, I missed the change on the KDE one.  Adding
20:46 < mether> "get a completely free copy of fedora media" would be better, i think
20:46 < mizmo> ricky, on the kde page i'd change it to Get Fedora 10 KDE Desktop Edition Now
20:46 < mizmo> the title
20:46 < ricky> Sure
20:46 < mether> is there a particular reason to highlight ppc so much
20:47 < mether> hardly anybody uses it
20:47 < ivazquez> Marketing.
20:47 < ivazquez> "Ubuntu has a PPC version! Go try it!"
20:47 < ivazquez> Oh look! A huge button showing ours.
20:47 < ricky> Heh
20:48 < mether> i dont know. marketing should be about giving people, what they want instead of promoting obscure arch's i think
20:48 < ivazquez> Having said that, I am amenable to putting the KDE button over the PPC one.
20:48 < ricky> I don't think it's that prominent
20:48 < ricky> We want PPC users to not have to navigate through http://sphe.res.cmu.edu/en/get-fedora
20:48 < ivazquez> Sometimes people want a PPC version.
20:49 < ricky> Er, http://sphe.res.cmu.edu/en/get-fedora-all
20:49 < mizmo> mether, i think the target there is mac os x users who want to try this linux thing
20:49 < mizmo> mether, who might be frightened by the all options screen
20:49 < ivazquez> There's still a scary amount of PPC Macs out there.
20:49 < mether> mizmo: ah ok. if we have a good reason, then sure
20:49 < ricky> OK, so http://sphe.res.cmu.edu/en/ should be updated with everything we mentioned so far (apart from adding images)
20:50 < ricky> mizmo: Does the gray box work, or should it be lighter?
20:50 < mizmo> ooh i think it worked
20:50 < ricky> Cool
20:50 < mizmo> id give it a bit more padding though on the top
20:50 < mether> so should we say, "Classic Macintosh users, upgrade to Fedora" or some thing like that
20:50 < mizmo> er margin
20:50 < ivazquez> Did we decide on the "Older Fedora" wording?
20:50 < mizmo> mether, 'classic' makes people think os 9
20:50 < ivazquez> "Classic Mac" refers to 68k.
20:51 < mether> how do we say ppc macs in mac parlance
20:51 < ricky> Oh yeah - "Older Fedora" or "Older Version" ?
20:51 < ivazquez> NewWorld Macs
20:51 < mether> i am sure they dont use "ppc"
20:51  * ricky thinks "Older Version" might make more sense
20:51 < mizmo> mether, do you have a better suggestion?
20:51 < ivazquez> And fix the capitalization please :P
20:51 < mizmo> mether, it's a tricky one
20:51 < mizmo> mether, because you dont want to drive intel mac users to download the wrong thing
20:51 < mether> mizmo: "power pc"?
20:52 < mizmo> mether, i agree tho tha tppc is kind of jargony
20:52 < mizmo> mether, yeh that's probably better
20:52 < wwoods> "Macintosh G3/G4/G5"?
20:52 < ricky> ivazquez: The capitalization where?
20:52 < mether> i am not sure of the terminology familiar to mac users
20:52 < ivazquez> NewWorld is the appropriate term.
20:52 < mether> never used one
20:52 < mizmo> wwoods, i have an old mac i dont use under my desk. i have no idea which G it is :)
20:52 < ivazquez> "Older Version". Drop the caps.
20:52 < ricky> Ah, OK
20:52 < wwoods> yeah, but it's G-something
20:52 < mizmo> - i think kde should be over ppc in the banners on the right
20:53 < ivazquez> G3 and newer PPC Macs are called "NewWorld".
20:53 < mizmo> - i think we should rename ppc to "power pc"
20:53 < wwoods> ivazquez: nobody calls them that
20:53 < ricky> ivazquez: Hmm, what about headings like: "Get Fedora 10 KDE Desktop Edition Now " ?
20:53 < mizmo> - i think the grey area - more options - should have a bit more margin on the top
20:53 < ivazquez> Mac techs call them that.
20:53 < ricky> mizmo: sorry, lost track of that - doing now
20:53 < mizmo> ricky, it's all good, i figured its prolly hard to find them all embedded in the chat so i tried the - trick hehe
20:54 < ricky> mizmo: How does it look now?
20:54 < wwoods> ivazquez: mac techs who dealt with OldWorld macs, maybe. none of the mac techs I've talked to have ever uttered that word.
20:54 < mizmo> ricky, the margin is perfect now :)
20:54 < ricky> Cool
20:54 < wwoods> nor any mac users.
20:54 -!- knurd is now known as knurd_afk
20:54 < mether> also instead of saying, "desktop live cd or install dvd", can we say "Desktop Live CD or Regular DVD". I am trying to avoid giving the impression that live cd is not installable"
20:54 < wwoods> I'll agree that it's the most accurate and precise term, but it's not common parlance at all.
20:54 < mether> i saw a few users still confused about that in fedoraforum
20:55 < ricky> Does that sound good to everybody? ^
20:55 < mether> for upgrade, is preupgrade a better recommendation than the dvd image. wwoods?
20:55 < wwoods> ooh. um.
20:56 < wwoods> No. DVD is more reliable
20:56 < mether> it screwed up at times, still in my testing
20:56 < ricky> Should it be "Regular DVD," or something else?
20:56 < ricky> "Regular" sounds a bit weird to me
20:56 < wwoods> there are some (uncommon but known) cases where preupgrade doesn't work yet
20:56 < wwoods> e.g. /boot on dmraid, ppc, /boot <150MB
20:57 < wwoods> preupgrade may be the recommended method for F11 though.
20:57 < mether> can we still highlight preupgrade somewhere in there?
20:57 < ricky> Cool
20:58 < ricky> mether: We'll have to consider how recommended/supported preupgrade is and how late we are in the websites process. 
20:58 < mether> hyperlink to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Preupgrade
20:58 < mizmo> mether, im not sure we really want the target users of this page using preupgrade right now
20:58 < mizmo> mether, i would wait until it's more stable
20:58 < mether> yes, we can post pone changes to Fedora 11
20:58 < ricky> Adding a single line might not hurt, but I'm not sure if users would get confused at the additional option
20:58 -!- ubertibbs [n=tibbs at fedora/tibbs] has quit "Konversation terminated!"
20:58 < mether> if some of the changes are late
20:58 < wwoods> yeah I really don't think preupgrade is something to talk about for this audience yet
20:58 < mizmo> mether, i agree that having 'install' in the 'install dvd' header is probably causing some of the live cd confusion
20:59 < ricky> All right, let's leave preupgrade for next release.
20:59 < mizmo> mether, im trying to think of a better way to pose it
20:59 < wwoods> furthermore, by the time it *is* the right thing, we should have PackageKit popping up a dialog for it
20:59 -!- drago01 [n=linux at chello062178124130.3.13.univie.teleweb.at] has quit Remote closed the connection
20:59 < wwoods> so you probably won't have to worry about it.
20:59 < mizmo> 'Desktop Live CD'  &  'DVD Media'  ?
20:59 < mizmo> 'Full DVD' ?
20:59  * ricky would like to s/Live CD/Installable Live CD/, but that would make everything too long :-/
20:59 < ricky> Full DVD sounds good
20:59 < mether> mizmo: its not a full dvd
20:59 < mether> mizmo: its a subset of packages
20:59 < mizmo> mether, it's full-er lol
20:59 < mizmo> how about...
21:00 < mether> well yes, but that sounds awkard
21:00 < mizmo> nah
21:00 < mizmo> hmm
21:00 < ricky> Super-size, Large, and Medium (no small)
21:00 < mizmo> ricky, is there no space for 'Installable Desktop Live CD' ?
21:00 < ricky> mizmo: We can see how it looks in a second.
21:01 < ricky> Hm.
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21:01 < ricky> How can we differentiate between Installable GNOME Live CD and Installable KDE Live CD?
21:01 < ricky> (Without making it that long)
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21:01 < mizmo> ricky, hm where is that text
21:02 < mizmo> oh
21:02 < mizmo> its the banner text
21:02 < ricky> The sidebar buttons
21:02 < ricky> Yeah
21:02 < mizmo> okay a couple ideas:
21:02 < mizmo> for
21:02 < mizmo> 'Get Fedora 10 Desktop Edition Now Live Media Enabled!'
21:02 < ricky> On the download page itself, I can replace "Live Media Enabled!" with "Installable Live CD"
21:02 < mizmo> on the front page
21:02 < mizmo> i would suggest, next to 'Live Media Enabled!' also do 'Installable!'
21:03 < mizmo> oh oh
21:03 < mizmo> thats even better ricky!
21:03 < ricky> Cool
21:03 < mizmo> with the banner
21:03 < mizmo> i wouldn't do a banner for the main get fedora
21:03 < mizmo> what i would do
21:03 < mizmo> is a breadcrumb trail like bar at the top
21:03 < mizmo> of the ppc and kde pages
21:03 < mizmo> 'Back to the main 'Get Fedora' page'
21:03 < mizmo> something like that
21:03 < ricky> Hm.
21:05 < ricky> Like this?  http://sphe.res.cmu.edu/en/get-fedora
21:06 < ricky> I'll probably make the font smaller, etc. - just getting the text in there
21:06 < mizmo> ricky, i'd do it above the 'fedora for you'
21:06 < ricky> OK
21:06 < mizmo> ricky, and put a 1 px light grey border along the bottom
21:07 < ivazquez> Maybe just a little "<< Back"?
21:07 < ivazquez> Let me find a fancy arrow :P
21:07 < ivazquez> ⇐, U+21D0
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21:08 < ricky> Here's how it looks now: http://sphe.res.cmu.edu/en/get-fedora-kde
21:10 < ricky> Adjusted it a bit
21:10 < pjones> ivazquez: how's that read?  "un-yields"?
21:10 < ricky> Is that clearer, or should we try the arrow?
21:11 < ricky> Actually...
21:11 < ivazquez> Well, it does unyield the page transition :P
21:12  * ricky added <<
21:12 < mether> mizmo: do we have a Fedora 10 banner for the front page?
21:13 < ricky> Also, any thoughts about the tagline?
21:13  * ricky is ready to go with: "Fedora 10 - Fire it up."
21:13 < tw2113> no complaint here
21:13 < mether> can we connect it to Solar theme somehow?
21:13 < ricky> Heh.  I looks kind of funny with the period.
21:13 < mizmo> mether, not yet
21:14 < mizmo> ricky, i like it
21:14  * ricky agonizes too much about these things...
21:14 < mizmo> ricky, theres a better character for <<
21:14 < ricky> But period or no period?  ;-)
21:14 < mizmo> attention to detail is a good thing :)
21:14 < mizmo> no period.
21:14 < ricky> Cool
21:15 < ricky> Hopefully it's a good string for translators to work with
21:15 -!- kital [n=Joerg_Si at fedora/kital] has quit Remote closed the connection
21:15 < ricky> All right, so how's everything looking now?
21:15 -!- kital [n=Joerg_Si at fedora/kital] has joined #fedora-meeting
21:15 < ricky> Check the docs links, wording, the way stuff is linked, etc.
21:16  * ricky wonders if the hover effect for the light buttons looks too much like the dark buttons
21:16 < mizmo> ricky, can u use this »
21:16 < ricky> Sure - /me looks that up
21:16  * ivazquez is not a fan of overloading guillemots for that
21:17 < mizmo> ricky, kde is still below ppc on the front page
21:17 < mizmo> ivazquez, oh i didnt realize they were used for anything but arrows
21:17 < mizmo> (*--*)
21:17 < mizmo> u could try this →
21:17 < ivazquez> They're quotation marks in several languages.
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21:18 < mizmo> some ideas, hehe →↠⇨⇒⍈➔➜➞➩➪➤
21:18 < ricky> Haha
21:19 < ricky> The arrow looks pretty nice (check now)
21:19 < mizmo> depending on your irc client's font, that may or may not look crazy lol
21:19 < ivazquez> I like ↫, but the other one is flipped the wrong way: ↬
21:19 < mizmo> _1 shipit
21:19 < mizmo> er
21:19 < mizmo> +1 shipit
21:19 < mizmo> ricky, ah i just noticed on the kde page, there isn't enough of a margin between the buttons on the right and the text in the main body
21:20 < ricky> What resolution are you looking with?
21:20 < ricky> We may have to resize those columns when we get icons for the butons
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21:20 < ricky> Also, do the download boxes at http://sphe.res.cmu.edu/en/get-fedora-kde look a little spacey?
21:21 < ricky> The alternating gray made it look more natural before
21:21 < mizmo> ricky, it's 1450 x 960 i think
21:21 < mizmo> ricky, i think if you set a margin of say 20 px it'll be good no matter what resolution
21:21 < ricky> All right - I'll try using non-percent units
21:22 < mizmo> ricky, spacey?
21:22 < mizmo> ricky, i dont see any issues with them
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21:22 < mizmo> but maybe im not looking at the right thing? im looking at the blue download buttons?
21:22 < ricky> I mean the entire section with all the download info
21:23 < ricky> It's all indented a bit, so there's space around each section
21:23 < mizmo> ricky, it looks okay to me
21:23 < ricky> All right, it's just me, then
21:23 < mizmo> i did notice it the first time i hit the kde page,
21:24 < mizmo> but it doesn't bother me
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21:25 < ricky> All right, is the text thing fixed for you now?
21:26 < mizmo> ricky, it looks better, but could stand to use a bit more padding
21:26 < mizmo> maybe 10 px more, something like that
21:27 < ricky> How about now?
21:27 < mizmo> perfect :)
21:27 < mizmo> i think maybe the back to main fedora page
21:27 < mizmo> should be blue so it stands out more
21:27 < mizmo> maybe a bit bigger font
21:27 < ricky> All right
21:28 -!- ianweller_afk is now known as ianweller
21:28  * ianweller rolls in
21:28 < ricky> How about now?
21:28 < mizmo> ricky, the 'visited' link color is really light so it's still hard to read
21:29 < mizmo> it's like a light periwinkle
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21:30 < ianweller> what are we looking at?
21:30 < ricky> http://sphe.res.cmu.edu/en/get-fedora-kde
21:30 < mizmo> ricky, it might be cool to float this to the left of the KDE explanation text: http://wiki.kde.org/img/wiki_up/klogo-small-crystal-128.png
21:31 < ricky> Is that any better?
21:31  * ianweller yells at networkmanager
21:31 < mizmo> ricky, it is
21:31 < mizmo> it's just dark enough its easier to read now
21:32 < ricky> mizmo: any idea how much I should size it down (pixels)?
21:32  * ricky isn't great at estimating this stuff
21:32 < mizmo> ricky, maybe 90x90?
21:32 < ricky> All right
21:33 < mizmo> i think it'd be good to make the first mention of the text 'K Desktop Environment (KDE)' in that paragraph link to kde.org
21:33 < mizmo> so people can take a look at it see if its what they want
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21:33 < ricky> Good idea
21:34 < ricky> mizmo: Same with GNOME or not?
21:35 < mizmo> ricky, well, with the GNOME one we don't really mention it as being GNOME
21:35 < mizmo> and we don't have an explanatory paragraph
21:35 < mizmo> i think it's okay to leave it out from that page
21:35 < mizmo> maybe on the KDE page
21:35 < ricky> All right
21:35 < mizmo> "The K Desktop Environment (KDE) is an alternative desktop environment for Fedora. (The default desktop environment is GNOME.)"
21:35 < mizmo> and make GNOME a link to gnome.org
21:36 < mizmo> but that might just be too confusing to be useful
21:37 < ricky> Yeah, I think it's fine now
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21:42 < ricky> Looks like it's still a bit big
21:43 < mizmo> really?
21:44 < mizmo> im not suggesting the 90x90 for the button, but for the paragraph
21:44 < mizmo> (does that make more sense?)
21:44 < ricky> Oh, for what paragraph?
21:44 < mizmo> the kde explanation paragraph
21:44 < ricky> Ohhhhh
21:44 < mizmo> like, have it float to the left or right of the paragraph, and have it link to kde.org
21:44 < mizmo> id do maybe a 24x24 icon for the banner button
21:44 < ricky> Gotcha
21:45 < mizmo> sorry for the confusion :)
21:45 -!- lfoppiano [n=lfoppian at fedora/lfoppiano] has quit "Ex-Chat"
21:46 < ricky> No worries
21:46 < ricky> Could it still be a bit large?
21:46 < ianweller> ricky: have you been testing this with browsershots.org? :)
21:47 < mizmo> ricky, yeh, maybe 60x60 would be better
21:47 < ricky> Nope, not yet - browser testing's going to be "fun"
21:47 < mizmo> ricky, i think put a clear: both on the paragraphs below it will stop them from cascading
21:48 -!- greenlion [n=greenlio at fedora/greenlion] has quit "Ухожу"
21:49 < ricky> How is that?
21:53 -!- sharkcz [n=dan at plz1-v-4-17.static.adsl.vol.cz] has quit "Ukončuji"
21:54 -!- petreu [n=peter at fedora/petreu] has quit "( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: www.XLhost.de )"
21:55 < ricky> Heh, looks like we went waaay over time today :-)
21:55 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Channel is used by various Fedora groups and committees for their regular meetings | Note that meetings often get logged | For questions about using Fedora please ask in #fedora | See http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/FedoraMeetingChannel for meeting schedule
21:55 < ricky> Thanks for coming, everybody - we can keep it going in #fedora-websites 
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