Meeting Log - 2008-10-20

[Ricky Zhou]

21:59 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Fedora Websites - Who's Here?
21:59 < juank_prada> ok then lets go for the one click method
22:00  * juank_prada is here somehow
22:00  * CB6 is here 
22:00 < ricky> I guess ianweller_food's at dinner now
22:00 -!- Irssi: #fedora-websites: Total of 21 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 20 normal]
22:00 < CB6> nope he's at food :P
22:00 < ricky> quaid: Are you around?
22:01 < ricky> All right, so I thought we'd just go through the tasks really quickly, and then continue discussing get-fedora
22:01 -!- nman64 [n=n-man at fedora/nman64] has quit Remote closed the connection
22:01 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Fedora Websites - Tasks
22:01 < ricky> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Tasks
22:02 < ricky> No update on usability research yet, although as mizmo-out said, anybody help out by just getting people to download Fedora using various options, etc.
22:03 < ricky> quaid: Any update on the great CMS search, or is there too much docs stuff going on before release at the moment?
22:03 -!- stickster is now known as stickster_afk
22:04 < CB6> I thought that was already found?
22:04 < ricky> Nope, or at least I never saw any recent discussion about it on the websites, docs, or infrastructure lists.
22:06 < ricky> I guess this will probably come up more after the release - docs stuff must be pretty crazy now :_)
22:06 < ricky> **:-)
22:06 < ricky> fedoraproject.org/contact - thanks to ylynfatt for getting this page done
22:06 < ricky> Hopefully it'll reduce a lot of misdirected webmaster@ emails
22:06 < CB6> http://cmscritic.com/
22:06 < ricky> Anybody have comments/suggestions for this page?
22:07 < juank_prada> i would reduce the screenshot size though
22:07 < ricky> Hmm, by how much?  The text is already barely legible at the current isze
22:08 < ricky> **size
22:08 < CB6> http://www.cmsmatrix.org/ this site compares diff CMS
22:08 < ricky> Do you mean that it should be squarer?
22:08 < juank_prada> not really
22:08 < CB6> can you add lightbox to it?
22:08 < juank_prada> well im not sure.. bit i find that such a big image is just way to much for an informative site
22:09 < CB6> SEO ... content is king
22:09 < ricky> For a single image, I think lightbox is probably - we can probably make it smaller and link it to a larger screenshot, though
22:09 < juank_prada> sounds better
22:09 < CB6> wonder if we could add lightbox into wiki.. lol would be nice
22:10 < CB6> would sure clean the site up
22:10 < ricky> juank_prada: Feel free to test those changes in fedora-web.test and we can get those pushed
22:10 < ricky> Any other thoughts on this (particularly about the content/wording)
22:11 < juank_prada> ok as soon as i have the time i'll do it :)
22:11 < ricky> Cool, thanks
22:11 < ricky> a0
22:11 < ricky> Oops
22:11 < ricky> All right, then
22:12 < ricky> tw2113 isn't around to talk about docs.fp.o - last I heard, it just needed some polishing up
22:12 < ricky> (Anybody is free to help him out with this, by the way)
22:12 -!- giarc [n=cwt at ool-435162cf.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #fedora-websites
22:13 < ricky> giarc: Hey :-)
22:13 < ricky> ianweller_food's at food, so we'll skip the MW one
22:14 < giarc> ricky, hi
22:14 < ricky> On the infrastructure side of things - I'll be freezing the website to what's in git right now shortly, so if there are any pressing changes, make them today
22:15 -!- ianweller_food is now known as ianweller
22:15 < ricky> Also, we now have a fedora-web.test repo, which http://publictest15.fedoraproject.org/ gets built from every 10 minutes
22:15 < ricky> It's open to anybody in the web group, so feel free to mess around and try stuff out on that one
22:15 < ricky> Nothing on spins.fp.o recently
22:15 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Fedora Websites - get-fedora
22:16 < ianweller> oh dear.
22:16 < ricky> Heh.
22:16 < ricky> So we had this huge discussion about get-fedora before the meeting :-)
22:16 < ianweller> i'm so confused :P
22:17 < CB6> about what?
22:17 < ricky> It's looking like we'll be building on http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/webdesign/get-fedora/ for the main get-fedora page, and keep something similar to what we have now for the "experienced users" page
22:17 < ianweller> about the get-fedora conversation we had earlier
22:17  * juank_prada is unhappy with current aproach but is willing to help on that
22:17 < ricky> What aren't you clear about?  :-)
22:17 < ianweller> but i'll let ricky summarize it for meeting purposes ;)
22:18 < CB6> I agree with the whole confusion part.. when I first started with computers it was insane with all the different protocols, and then not really knowing which OS to select. There should be an option to explain things on the side IF people want it
22:18 < ricky> I think that's something that's covered in the install guide
22:18 < ricky> (in-depth explanation of every single option)
22:18 < ricky> So for those that don't mind documentation, the info is there
22:19 < ianweller> i think if we cover ppc and kde in the sidebar i really like mizmo-out's design
22:19 < ricky> (http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f9/en_US/ch-new-users.html#sn-howto-download)
22:19 < CB6> http://publictest15.fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora should be an OR button between the two protocols otherwise it will confuse
22:19 < ianweller> we really need to fix our torrents page. more organization. but that's another topic
22:19 < ianweller> if we're going to direct people to torrents.fp.o for main torrents
22:19 < ricky> Yeah, definitely
22:20 < ianweller> i guess maybe i could help with that.
22:20 < ianweller> i feel like i've been slacking on the websites front
22:20 < CB6> no need to waste peoples time and resources when a simple "or" would solve it lol
22:20 < ricky> The point is to make it as easy as possible, even if it means showing the most common option on the main get-fedora page
22:21 < ricky> All of the options are still completely exposed to users that know what they want
22:21 < giarc> are we use this:
22:21 < giarc> http://publictest15.fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora
22:21 < CB6> Options is what linux is all about :)
22:21 < juank_prada> i dont see an OR as confusing thing... you either get A or B
22:21 < giarc> for those users ?
22:21 < ianweller> ricky: i need to talk with you sometime about working on torrents.fp.o. hopefully i can remember tomorrow
22:22 < ricky> ianweller: Sure thing, I can show you where all of the scripts, for making that are - just ping me whenever you're interested
22:22 < CB6> Select A or B is pretty straight forward everyone has a multiple choice test LOL..
22:22 < ricky> juank_prada: It can be confusing if the person doesn't know what each means
22:23 < ricky> Multiple-choice tests can be failed, single-choice tests can't :-)
22:23  * ricky wins the bad analogy contest :-P
22:23 < ianweller> CB6: a simple "install or upgrade" is much easier than a "live cd or dvd AND architechture AND delivery method"
22:23 < giarc> ricky, are we planning on using this get-fedora at publictest15 for the 'users who know what they are looking around for' ?
22:23 < juank_prada> single choices restrict your freedom ^^
22:23 < CB6> ianweller totally...
22:23 < ianweller> juank_prada: and that's why we have sidebars!
22:23 < ricky> giarc: For users that know what they want, we'll probably use http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora, since they probably already know exactly what they want
22:23 < ianweller> i think we're moving into pre-meeting discussion+rant+thing btw
22:24 < giarc> ok
22:24 < ricky> (So 1 click for those people vs. going through a wizard)
22:24 < CB6> yep
22:24 < ricky> Nobody's freedom is being restricted - all choices are still available
22:24 < ricky> We're just showing the most common useful one the most prominently
22:24 < CB6> can always click back lol
22:25 < ianweller> i'm +1 for mizmo's design, as long as we have a summary over ppc and kde in the sidebar.
22:25 < ricky> That's why we need to make sure that the sidebar handles the special cases well
22:25 < ianweller> and if we include the multiple-cd set alongside the upgrade DVD
22:25 < giarc> i like the page at publictest15, but think we are doing the right thing by using mizmo-out 's design
22:25 < CB6> would be cool if respin etc was all there
22:25 < ianweller> CB6: 'see all spins'
22:25 < ricky> It's already linked from there :-)
22:26 < ianweller> which spins.fp.o is another project. ;P
22:26 < CB6> http://publictest15.fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora I quite like how this is laid out
22:26 < ricky> Everything is downloadable within two clicks from get-fedora, with the vaaast majority of people getting it in one click
22:27 < ricky> CB6: I love how that was designed as well, but it still ends up presenting a large number of users with options that they don't need
22:27 < ianweller> the pt15 one looks VERY sleek and professional, but i think mizmo-out's wins by content/usability
22:27 < juank_prada> from my point of view we are divergin the user to lots of different pages just to get different (yet similar) things while they could get most of them in one single page... im not a usabillity expert but i rather have to click three times on a page than waiting for the server to show up another page
22:27 < giarc> ianweller, right
22:27 < ricky> juank_prada: The vaaast majority of people will just get it in one click, though
22:28 < ricky> I think it's perfectly fine to make people that already know what they want make that extra click to get to the "experienced user" page
22:28 < CB6> Do we have test servers pinging to see what servers have what content up etc?
22:28 < ianweller> i think anyone who clicks the experienced user page also knows how to work their way around the mirrors ;)
22:28 < ianweller> but that's another hasty generalization that can cause people to start yelling at me
22:28 < ricky> CB6: Yeah, there's a mirror crawler, which is how download.fp.o knows where to redirect people
22:29 < CB6> cool
22:29 < ricky> (mdomsch is the mastermind behind all of the mirrors stuff, if you're interested in how that works)
22:29 < ricky> OK, so let's try to distill this into what we need to get done
22:29 < ianweller> mdomsch is a magician :D
22:30 < ianweller> 1) write sidebar content
22:30 -!- tw2113 [n=tw2113 at fedora/tw2113] has joined #fedora-websites
22:30 < juank_prada> ok im not saying anything else about get-fedora, just lets start coding mizmo-out' mockup
22:30 < ricky> The main two things are: Sidebar links (make sure that they catch inexperienced users that need something other than i686 Desktop Live CD)
22:30 < ricky> and having links to the upgrade guide/"How do I use this file?"
22:30 < juank_prada> i think the site will look way to overwhelmed by links... specially the sidebar
22:31 < ianweller> maybe a sidebar with the heading "What?" would work :P
22:31 < ricky> Hehe
22:31 < CB6> As far as I'm concerned as long as people can get the right content as fast as they want then great. I just want to insure all the options are readily available to everyone.
22:31 < ianweller> CB6: they will be, don't you worry :D
22:31 < ricky> CB6: They are - it'll be on a page just like http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora
22:31 < ianweller> are we gonna move the current get-fedora to get-more-fedora
22:31 < ianweller> or something liek that
22:32 < CB6> As long as we don't bombard people with garbage like Microsoft.. there's really no flow to their sites
22:32 < ricky> ianweller: Probably - haven't thought about the name yet :-)
22:32 < ricky> quaid: Are you around for a quick docs question?
22:33 < giarc> what date do we need to be done by? for translations?
22:33 < ricky> I told the l10n team that we'd try to give them 3 weeks before release (which is hopefully more than they need)
22:34 < ricky> That gives us around 2 weeks to have the strings for the English version finished
22:34 < giarc> so 2008-11-03 ?
22:34 < ricky> Yup
22:35 < giarc> do we know what we are putting in the sidebar?
22:36 < ricky> All right, so I'll ask some docs people for the docs links under resoures
22:36 < ricky> giarc: Sounds like a good thing to get out there
22:36 < ricky> So there are a few options..  They could have an arch that's not i686, or they might want the KDE spin, for example
22:37 < CB6> Why is there no search function on fedoraproject? Is it just too much of a resource hog?
22:37 < ricky> CB6: daMaestro has done some work on a search - you might be able to talk to him about that
22:37 < juank_prada> CB6, most of fp.o is static content and a search engine would probably need some databes content to index the info
22:38 < giarc> which are the most popular spins?
22:38 < giarc> KDE
22:38 < CB6> title of the page is one of the most important components of SEO
22:38 < ricky> Well, KDE and Desktop are only ones that go on get-fedora (vs. stuff on spins.fp.o, I think)
22:38 < giarc> ok
22:39 < ricky> CB6: Heh, they're all the same now, but we have the ability to change them per-page if you have suggestions
22:39 < giarc> so, KDE spin, PPC and 64 bit in the sidebar?
22:39 < CB6> ricky lol that's not good at all
22:39 < ricky> The thing is the KDE spin has i686 and x86_64 versions too :-/
22:40 < giarc> we could just link to the i686, same as we do for the liveCD
22:40 < ricky> CB6: We're already the first google result for "Fedora" :-)  (but it'd still be great if you wanted to change some titles)
22:40 < giarc> with a more...
22:41 < ricky> giarc: Ah, good point - i686 will work for x86_64 anyway
22:41 < giarc> right, same logic
22:41 < giarc> diff spin
22:41 < CB6> ricky agreed it would be beneficial to hold the Fedora name aspect for the primary part of the title then add - page subject title after
22:41 < ricky> What I want to avoid is users wondering if "X Y Z" combination is available or not, then searching like crazy
22:41 < giarc> ok, so, seems like we know what we are starting with in the sidebar anyway...
22:42 < ricky> But hopefully, those users can look through the full table of what we offer
22:42 < CB6> hopefully people take the time to also have it on the page so X Y Z is also available as google looks for key words there
22:44 < giarc> ricky, i think our 'let me look around...' is sufficient for people looking for specific things if they are not readily apparent
22:44 < ricky> Hmm.  Do you think we can get away with leaving out x86_64 on the sidebar?
22:44 < giarc> to not worry too much about what is NOT in the sidebar
22:44 < ricky> It's not really all that important unless you have >4 GB of memory...
22:44 < giarc> i would think PPC more than 64bit
22:44 < ricky> Then we can worry about KDE and ppc
22:45 < ricky> And we'd have a version of http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/webdesign/get-fedora/ with just KDE links or just PPC links
22:45 < giarc> interesting idea
22:45 < ricky> Any other suggestions for handling those sidebar links?
22:45 < CB6> a lot of people these days have 4gb of memory
22:46 < giarc> yeah, and x86_64
22:46  * ricky wonders if the i686 installer could automatically detect that and use the PAE kernel
22:47 < giarc> so it seems to me we have enough of an idea to get started? is that opinion shared?
22:47 < ricky> I still find that the majority of people that insist on using x86_64 don't have >= 4 GB of memory.  That's just my experience from listening in #fedora, though :-)
22:47 < giarc> ricky, heh
22:48 < ricky> OK, so I'll get Mairin's version of get-fedora into the test repo and we can all start playing around with it
22:48 -!- J5 [n=quintice at c-76-24-17-105.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)
22:48 < ricky> (Also, please feel free to ask in #fedora-websites if you run into git trouble or anything like that - it can be really confusing)
22:49 < ricky> So to work on the test site, you should git clone ssh://git.fedorahosted.org/git/fedora-web.test.git if you're in the web group, or git:// otherwise
22:49 < juank_prada> then are we making one page for each spin and each arch?
22:49 < juank_prada> arent we failing here with the DRY principles?
22:49 -!- juank_prada [n=juank at 190.144.43.10] has quit Remote closed the connection
22:50 -!- juank_prada [n=juank at 190.144.43.10] has joined #fedora-websites
22:50 < ricky> juank_prada: We'll probably just have a page for i686, ppc, and live KDE.
22:51 < juank_prada> ricky, you mean one for all of them?
22:51 < ricky> For other options, I think it's reasonable to expect users to look at the full table of downloads.  Those three are enough to get anybody started with using Fedora
22:51 < ricky> One for each (so it'd still be at most two clicks from get-fedora
22:51 < juank_prada> i still think we are providing same options in different ways which may confuse users more
22:51 < giarc> i think we can do it with one, no?
22:52 < ricky> The nice part is that 99% of users won't need to make any choices.  They'll be at correct place at the first page
22:52 < giarc> let people looking for other things use what we have now?
22:52 < ricky> What we have now is having them all on one page
22:52 < giarc> right, i meant the part 'let me look around'
22:53 < giarc> :-}
22:53 < ricky> Oh, that part will be the same as what we have now
22:53 < ricky> The "sea of links," as mizmo-out put it
22:53 < juank_prada> murphy said that everything that could be wrong will be wrong, so if we provide the link to a sea of links some how a noob user will get in there getting lost again
22:53 < giarc> ok, and i think we can have mizmo-out 's design, add KDE/PPC/64bit to the sidebar and be done?
22:54 < ianweller> juank_prada: that's their problem then, if they see past the "duh"
22:54 < ricky> juank_prada: They'd have to click the "I know exactly what I'm looking for" link first
22:54 < ricky> Then they'd realize the mistake and go back if they don't know what to choose
22:54 < juank_prada> yeah.. im looking for fedora!
22:54 < juank_prada> so ill click there
22:55 < ricky> Worst case, there's always /get-help :-)
22:55 < ricky> OK, so anything else on get-fedora?
22:55 < giarc> not here
22:56 < ricky> I think we have a pretty good idea of what needs to happen in the next two weeks now
22:56 < ianweller> (please no)
22:56 < ricky> ianweller: Hehe
22:56 < juank_prada> i'll just please ianweller
22:56 < giarc> so, ricky, you are getting mizmo-out 's design into git test repo, we all work on it ?
22:57 < ricky> Yup
22:57 < ricky> There's always the mailing list for more discussion
22:57 < giarc> got it :-}
22:57 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Fedora Webites - Open Floor
22:57  * ianweller looks at his non-existant watch
22:57 < ricky> Anything more about websites in general?  We're almost at the hour mark
22:57  * giarc facepalms at the thought of more discussion
22:57 < ricky> Hehe
22:57 < ricky> That's what meetings are for :-)
22:58 < giarc> for 6 months!
22:58 < giarc> ?
22:58 < giarc> anyway
22:58 < ricky> Let's close it up, then
22:58 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Fedora Webites - Meeting End
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