Meeting Log - 2009-01-12

[Ricky Zhou]

22:01 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-meeting to: Websites Meeting
22:01 < ricky> So who's here?
22:01 < ivazquez> Pong.
22:01 < ricky> ianweller, quaid, mizmo_ , stiv2k, anybody that I missed: ping
22:01 < stiv2k> pong
22:02 < mizmo> yo
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22:03 < ricky> So we'd like to make it our goal to improve join-fedora like we did to get-fedora last release
22:03 -!- mizmo_ [n=duffy at 66.187.234.199] has quit "Leaving"
22:03 < ricky> mizmo: Do you think we can do the same sort of "what do users want to do" analysis on join-fedora?  
22:03 < mizmo> certainly :)
22:03 < rsc_> oh, Robert Scheck - was waiting #fedora-websites.
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22:04 < mizmo> the target user is obviously someone who is not currently involved in fedora
22:04 < ricky> We've already heard some comments on what bits can be confusing, like the categories being too broad, and how it links to FAS with little explanation about mailing lists, etc.
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22:05 < mizmo> for all the different 'career paths' we currently suggest
22:05 < ricky> When people want to contribute, do they normally pretty much know exactly what tasks they'd like to do?
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22:05 < mizmo> we should research the steps the various teams have as part of the joining process, they definitely differ and not all involve FAS
22:05 < stiv2k> ricky: I was rather intrigued when I first joined and saw all the categories
22:05 < mizmo> (eg artteam, where fas membership is really not meaningful)
22:06 < mizmo> there are probably some people who go and know exactly what to work on,
22:06 < mizmo> but plenty who want to help but aren't sure where their help might be needed or what they might do
22:06 < stiv2k> ricky: though I knew for fact that I would want to be doing something technical, I wasn't sure if I wanted to do Infrastructure or OS developer
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22:06 < mizmo> i think one special case too, for the users who aren't sure what to do, is that we assure them that you don't have to be a programmer to make a difference
22:06 < ricky> Yeah - Marc Ferguson sent some emails out, but I guess it was aroud holidays and not many people responded :-(
22:07 < mizmo> i think probably consulting with an ambassador who recruits folks would be really eye-opening here, but i know i've heard from a number of folks i tried to recruit, "well, i'm not a programmer, so how am i going to help?"
22:07 < ivazquez> Perhaps it's a marketing issue then.
22:07 < stiv2k> you should probably say it out right on the join-fedora page
22:07 < ricky> Should there be more text explaining this on join-fedora, or is the problem outside of the website?
22:08 < stiv2k> that programming skills or computer expertise is not required
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22:08 < stiv2k> for all teams
22:08 < ivazquez> We need to make it seem that Fedora is more of a group of varied skills instead of a technically-oriented hive.
22:08 < ricky> Would it be logical to have separate areas for people that want to do technical things vs. not?
22:08 < stiv2k> the problem is, fedora is mostly a technical project
22:08 < stiv2k> 99% of people I interact with on a daily basis have no idea what fedora is
22:09 < stiv2k> the only thing people know is windows.
22:09 < stiv2k> what a world we live in :(
22:09 < mizmo> right but the people you interact with on a daily basis aren't in large percentage our target for this page, stiv2k
22:09 < ricky> Yeah, but even out of those people that know about Fedora, how many people know that they don't need to be a coder to get involved?
22:09 < mizmo> our target is people who already know what fedora is and want to help fedora
22:10 < mizmo> we have to assume they have some intent to help fedora, or to at least learn about what helping fedora entails
22:10 < mizmo> if they dont even know what fedora is they wont be on this page
22:10 < stiv2k> ricky: mizmo: exactly, very little, in fact, the "people" i was just talking about, as soon as I mention the word 'linux' to them, they get scared... they have no idea that they could still be an INVALUABLE help to the community
22:11 < mizmo> stiv2k, well i mean, im not sure how much help they can be if they don't know what linux is?
22:11 < stiv2k> mizmo: artwork?
22:11 < stiv2k> translations
22:11 < mizmo> stiv2k, we really encourage our artists to use FOSS tools
22:11 < ricky> For something like join-fedora, maybe more text/content vs. less content can actually be more reassuring to users
22:12 < mizmo> stiv2k, translations, maybe, but why would they be motivated to help if they dont understand what it is they are helping
22:12 < stiv2k> i know what you are saying, mizmo
22:12 < ricky> When I first started looking into contributing to Fedora, it was hard to get one view of all the parts of Fedora - I spent many hours following links on the wiki before that
22:12 < mizmo> they don't have to be linux users i guess, but they have to have a rough idea of what it is
22:12 < ivazquez> Maybe we need to de-emphasize the more technical roles.
22:13 < mizmo> well i think the 'you have to be a programmer' is a common myth
22:13 < mizmo> it could just be a banner ad or something on the screen
22:13 < mizmo> "Not a programmer? Don't worry!"
22:13 < ivazquez> Here's a crazy idea.
22:13 < mizmo> like, hopefully the different roles we would be illustrating on the page would make it clear enough, but just an additional emphasis, could be on the footer or in the sidebar
22:14 < ivazquez> Why don't we get rid of the "OS Developer" and "Web Dev or Admin" image links, and instead put those roles behind a "Other Roles" text link?
22:14 < ricky> Should we go for a separation of technical jobs from non-technical jobs?
22:14 < ricky> Like have the non-technical ones all in one section or in a separate page?
22:15 < mizmo> well the problem with that
22:15 < mizmo> is roles like docs can be non technical or they can be quite technical
22:15 < mizmo> same with artwork
22:15 < mizmo> eg charlie on the art team, he writes programs that generate artwork for us
22:15 < mizmo> and he wrote a plymouth theme
22:16 < ricky> Yeah, but when he first joined, did he have anything particular in mind?
22:16 < mizmo> also some folks who do admin work, they might not consider themselves programmers, they write scripts
22:16 < mizmo> i think he had an interest in graphics
22:16 < ricky> Ah
22:17 < ivazquez> The issue is not technical versus non-technical.
22:17 < ivazquez> The issue is programmer versus everything else.
22:17 < ricky> So what I said about getting a view of all parts of Fedora - I meant something kind of like this: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/index.xml?showlevel=2
22:18 < mizmo> oh i like that chart ricky
22:18 < ricky> So basically a listing of teams and what they do, so it's easy for somebody to say "hey, I can help with X task"
22:18 < mizmo> if i was an artist wanting to contribute to gentoo that might be confusing tho
22:19 < mizmo> like what is 'portage' ?
22:19 < ivazquez> I look at that chart and I'm lost.
22:19 < mizmo> what is 'pr'
22:19 < mizmo> but i like how projects are listed out with team members
22:19 < ivazquez> It's far too much for the average person to take in.
22:19 < ricky> I don't know about that.  It does show off the huge number of ways to contribute
22:20 < mizmo> but its not clear what they are
22:20 < ricky> And I do prefer it to clicking through 20 wiki links
22:20 < mizmo> its like looking at an org chart to see how many different teams there are, which is nice, but if i try to examine each one its not clear what the team does
22:20 < ricky> I guess we kind of have fragments of a hart like that at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join
22:21 < ricky> But the teams are spread all around, and this information is hidden behind the 6 links on join.fp.o
22:21 < mizmo> rather than being org-chart based, our wiki join page is skills based
22:21 < ivazquez> I think Join needs to be separated out into subpages. Can MW do that?
22:22 < ricky> ivazquez: Yeah, ask ianweller when he's around
22:22 < ricky> Do we have a good ide aof what the problems are with the current join-fedora setup?
22:22 < ricky> **idea of
22:22 < ricky> Are there serious improvements that we can make on what we have now?
22:23 < ivazquez> I think this is what we need to find out.
22:23 < mizmo> well
22:23 < mizmo> i think:
22:23 < mizmo> 1) it's a bit lean on content.
22:23 < ricky> The number one failure right now I think is the big link to FAS
22:23 < mizmo> 2) it dumps you out to the wiki which is a bit disorienting. i think it would be better if the individual role pages were on fpo not on the wiki
22:24 < ricky> People end up going to FAS and thinking that the group list is all they have to look at
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22:24 < ivazquez> Agreed. That grey box needs to go.
22:24 < ricky> Agreed
22:24 < rsc_> I think, we should describe some positiones and hand out some links.
22:24 < mizmo> 3) i agree dumping people out to fas is bad
22:24 < rsc_> and not directly a FAS link.
22:24 < mizmo> depending on the team they want to join this may be the absolutely wrong thing to do
22:24 < mizmo> we dont want people signing up for art group in FAS if they are new to fedora for example
22:24 < mizmo> it just creates annoying busywork
22:24 < mizmo> for the maintainers
22:24 < ivazquez> I don't think the role pages being in the wiki is bad. I just think that Join needs to be split up and the subpages need to be the targets.
22:25 < ricky> I don't think I've seen a single team that needs people to sign up for FAS in the first step
22:25 < rsc_> I think, each team needs a real "join" page, similar as the ambassadors have.
22:25  * ricky looks for the template link..
22:25 < mizmo> ivazquez, actually two fudcons ago we did a usability test of fpo, and one of the comments that came up with our (admittedly sole tester) was he did not like how he kept being bounced back and forth between the wiki and the webpage
22:25 < baig> ?
22:25 < mizmo> if you are new and not used to fedora, it can be disorientating i think to be bounced between what look like two separate sites
22:25 < ivazquez> How did he get bounced back to the web page?
22:26 < mizmo> he was trying to download something i think? the test log is on the wiki somewhere
22:26 < baig> ?
22:26 < mizmo> we gave him 10 different tasks i think, i dont remember which one bounced him but
22:26 < ivazquez> It would be interesting to take a look at that.
22:26 < ricky> Here's an example of what onekopaka was working on for making join pages more consistent on the wiki: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Onekopaka/JoinTemplate
22:27 < ricky> It's really hard to avoid jumping to the wiki once you start looking at group-specific stuff
22:27 < mizmo> im looking for it
22:28 < mizmo> ricky, well i think that the descriptions we have in the join page on the wiki should be www.fpo.org,
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22:28 < ivazquez> Okay, I'm going to ask a really dumb, and potentially explosive question now.
22:28 < mizmo> i think the individual team links gonig to the wiki is okay, that's where the teams do their business
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22:28 < ivazquez> Now that we've replaced moin with MW, why can't we have the web pages be part of the wiki?
22:29 < rsc_> Still performance.
22:29 < mizmo> here is is ivazquez https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-June/msg00231.html
22:29 < ivazquez> Thanks.
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22:29 < mizmo> - FAS - why can't I click on logo to go back to fedoraproject.org?
22:29 < mizmo> - why does it look so different than the Fedora site?
22:29 < ricky> I guess we probably could, once translations get worked out.  We do get a bit more control over markup and everything with static pages, which has been really useful for stuff like get-fedora and the release countdown
22:29 < mizmo> it was FAS not the wiki
22:29 < mizmo> that threw him off
22:29 < mizmo> he didn't like that the site looked different and that the navigation was different
22:29 < ivazquez> Ah, yes.
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22:29 < mizmo> and if u click on the fedora logo on the wiki, it brings you to the wiki front page
22:29 < mizmo> it doesn't bring you to the fpo front page
22:30 < ricky> Ahh, that's on the TODO lits
22:30 < ricky> **list
22:30 < mizmo> that came up in a few of the tasks
22:30 < mizmo> though
22:30 < mizmo> that he didnt like bouncing between sites
22:30 < mizmo> i would not like using the wiki for the fedora website
22:30 < mizmo> the wiki has a lot of baggage
22:30 < mizmo> and ui clutter you want to avoid in a proper website
22:30 < rsc_> ricky: well, using Wiki rather static files makes IMHO translation more hard
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22:31 < ricky> rsc_: Yeah, I hope translators like being able to translate fp.o using their normal tools :-)
22:32 < mizmo> i mean if we say the scope of the join.fpo page is to:
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22:32 < mizmo> 1) attract new contributors
22:32 < rsc_> ricky: and I really like the small fast static pages rather the dynamic stuff which easily breaks away for us, once some servers hook up
22:32 < mizmo> 2) inform new contributors of the tasks they can do, the skills that are useful
22:32 < mizmo> 3) pass the contributors on in a smooth workflow to actually joining up with the individual groups they've selected
22:33 < ricky> I was thinking about 3)
22:33 < ricky> I'd say that the generic process for joining a group is: intro email to mailing list, talk to people, then FAS stuff
22:33 < mizmo> i think that the responsibility of join.fpo would be to  have pages on fpo that describe the roles, and once you've decided, yes, this is what i want to do or learn more about, you get passed over to the wiki where that team can maintain their new recruit documentation
22:33 < ivazquez> Yeah, let's give contributors a single path to get to where they want to go.
22:33 < ricky> How many groups are an exception to this rule?
22:33 < mizmo> ricky, art team, we dont want people signing up for fas
22:34 < mizmo> and in the art team, we want people to grab an item from the design queue and complete it
22:34 < ricky> Is it a "This is what I want to do" or a "this is the team that I want to help" that you want users to leave with?
22:34 < rsc_> mizmo: but the art team is not the only team
22:34 < ivazquez> Honestly, I'd rather have the former.
22:34 < mizmo> rsc_, the art team is not the only team, but if there is one process for all teams it will break the art team, which is the point of my bringing up the art team's case.
22:34 < rsc_> mizmo: I think, there are more FAS requiring teams rather non-FAS requiring ones.
22:35 < mizmo> rsc_, does that mean the art team should change?
22:35 < mizmo> rsc_, im not sure why you bring this up, what is your suggestion?
22:35 < ivazquez> Why doesn't the Art team use FAS?
22:35 < mizmo> ivazquez, why should we use it?
22:35 < mizmo> ivazquez, you do not need ssh or cvs access to anything to use inkscape
22:35 < ricky> I'm not sure what we'd do on fp.o, I'd just like to have some level of consistency in the 10s of join pages that we have on the wiki
22:35 < rsc_> mizmo: we should have an overall look. I would guess, art team is nearly the only team
22:36 < mizmo> ivazquez, we do not want 100's of users signed up for the art group in FAS who we never hear from on our art list nor who never actually DO any work for the art team, which would be the scenario if we used the FAS for our joining process
22:36 < ivazquez> There probably is no need for it, perhaps until we get a gallery up.
22:36 < ricky> ivazquez: But then they have a next step, which is group-searching.  Do you think that's a common point of confusion?
22:37 < mizmo> rsc_, again what are you suggesting though, that the art team change? just so things look consistent?
22:37 < ricky> Honestly, I wish we could have a more human element to this...  I remember seeing a Fedora Mentors team, but it seems completely inactive at this point :-(
22:37 < ivazquez> I think people generally know if they're a talker, writer, or artist.
22:38 < rsc_> mizmo: would such a change hurt?
22:38 < mizmo> rsc_, YES
22:38 < mizmo> rsc_, very much.
22:38 < rsc_> mizmo: why? Just because of having inactive users? That we already also have at ambassadors, packagers etc.
22:39 < rsc_> Having people in a group also makes them informing more easily about something - e.g. via FAS.
22:39 < mizmo> rsc_, i really do not want to get into it. already as is with our process, people still sign up for the art group in FAS. i get maybe 20 requests a week. i have enough on my plate without sending 20 emails a week, 'please read the wiki page, im not granting u access kthxbai'
22:39 < rsc_> note, that there can be overall announcements for all art team people, can't they?
22:39 < ricky> As far as I can tell, the art group is just for tracking and possible fedorapeople access, @fp.o aliases, etc., is that right?
22:40 < ivazquez> Okay, some thoughts here.
22:40 < mizmo> rsc_, when we have votes about the theme, which is already quite controversial, i do not want to have to deal with the 100 requests for the art group in one day i got last time of people who have no interest in contributing artwork but only want to influence the theme vote
22:40 < ricky> I have a feeling that once FAS gets taken out of the front line, the apply spam will decrease
22:40 < ivazquez> 1) This whole FAS vs. non-FAS tiff here is unimportant.
22:40 < mizmo> i want to be able to hold art group only votes that are actually art group only votes
22:40 < ricky> Ah, and votes
22:40 < rsc_> ricky: +1 :)
22:40 < rsc_> ricky: I think, FAS is necessary - even if it's the wrong discussion ;)
22:40 < ricky> +1 to what ivazquez is saying
22:40 < mizmo> fas doesn't belong on the front page of join.fpo
22:40 < ivazquez> 2) We can allow it to be a bit trickier to join a group if we can convince people that joining is worth it.
22:41 < ricky> We should bring up no-apply groups some time
22:41 < ivazquez> 3) We need join-fedora to be a bit more of a brochure than it currently is.
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22:42 < ricky> But there's also confusion about what belongs on fp.o, the wiki, and FAS
22:42 < mizmo> it would be nice if it were more human like ricky said. like i pick out what type of person i am - i'm a arty person. and i can fill out a form or something and it'll get me in touch with a real live human being, for a consultation or something to talk about what i could work on
22:42 < ivazquez> Right now it depends on the rest of Fedora to attract contributors. It's not standalone at all.
22:43 < ivazquez> If I were not using Fedora, hadn't heard about it, and all that, I'd take one look at join-fedora and say "So what? BFD.".
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22:43 < mizmo> it would be nice if we could view it as a lead-generation tool for a mentors group but like ricky said we dont really have an active mentors group
22:43 < ivazquez> It doesn't make me want to join.
22:43 < mizmo> it would be cool if it had profiles of people talking about their fedora joining process
22:43 < mizmo> like,
22:44 < ricky> On the other hand, some people might be intimidated by having an open field
22:44 < onekopaka> Sorry for being late
22:44 < ricky> We've had people send things closer to a resume to us, which is probably more formal than needed
22:44 < mizmo> "I was taking an electronics class and was using fedora electronics lab. I found a tool that needed changing to work for my class project. I joined the Fedora Electronics lab team and i was able to do blah blah that made things work awesome. yay me! yay fedora!" with a photo of the person
22:44 < ivazquez> Right now it's all about "Fedora, Fedora, Fedora!". Most people in the world don't care about Fedora. They care about "Me, me, me!".
22:44 < ricky> onekopaka: No worries, thanks for making it - we're talking about join-fedora again :-)
22:45 < ivazquez> So, we need to make it about them.
22:45 < mizmo> ivazquez, very good point
22:45 < mizmo> "I'm a digital artist and love making wallpapers. I joined the Fedora art team, and my artwork got used in Fedora! How cool is it to have my artwork be viewed by thousands and thousands of Fedora users? What great exposure!" --happy Fedora Art Team member
22:46 < ricky> At one point, mmcgrath had something like that under the Infrastructure section of the wiki
22:46 < mizmo> kind of gives you the 'whats in it for me'
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22:46 < ricky> Mentioning all the benefits of getting involved
22:46 < ivazquez> Well we don't want that buried on some wiki page 10 clicks in. We want that on join-fedora.
22:46 < ricky> Yup
22:47 < ricky> Brochure was a really good way of putting it, that's exactly what we're looking for
22:47 < mizmo> "I'm into website hacking, so I joined the Fedora websites team. I met the love of my life! We've been married five years now, and we named our first child 'Fedora'! Thank you Fedora!" --blissfulinbrisbane
22:47 < ricky> Hahah
22:47 < mizmo> (sorry couldnt resist)
22:47 < rsc_> mizmo: so you want to have some kind of feedback like companies do for worse products? ;-)
22:47 < rsc_> mizmo: the typical "I bought that product and it made my day"?
22:48 < ivazquez> People buy the product because of those, don't kid yourself.
22:48 < rsc_> sorry, but I think, such a box already has a non-well taste.
22:48 < ricky> rsc_: There was some humor in what mizmo said ;-)
22:48 < onekopaka> Mozilla's Hendrix is good for feedback
22:48 < rsc_> ricky: yes, but the idea behind sounds realistic, even it got abused already
22:48 < ricky> It feels just like get-fedora.  It's hard to cater to absolutely everybody
22:49 < mizmo> rsc_,no i am giving example little stories that could bring a human element to the page and also demonstrate specific benefits of joining fedora
22:49 < mizmo> rsc_, not typical 'omg this is awesome' actual examples
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22:49 < mizmo> that i was being facetious shouldn't mean what i was saying was a bad idea
22:49 < mizmo> people like stories and narratives
22:50 < mizmo> it draws them in
22:50 < mizmo> well, authentic stories and narratives
22:51 < ricky> We'll have to balance it out to not have too much of ad/salesman feel to it, I guess
22:51 < mizmo> yeh absolutely
22:51 < mizmo> we could maybe have a set of 5 narratives and only one would show up on the page at a time so you're not inundated with it
22:51 < ivazquez> No, I think that's what we need.
22:52 < mizmo> or maybe, have one narrative for each path
22:52 < mizmo> eg one artsy narrative, one people person narrative, one techy person narrative
22:52 < ivazquez> We need to sell people on becoming a Fedora contributor.
22:52 < mizmo> so the person more directly learns what's in it for them in the specific field they are considering
22:52 < ricky> So one component to market Fedora to people, and then the next component is to make sure that the various wiki Join pages are approachable and hopefully somewhat consistent
22:52 < mizmo> yeh
22:52 < mizmo> and i think the marketing material belongs on FPO, but the details of joining are okay on the wiki
22:53 < ricky> Yeah, so it'll be two separate parts to work on
22:53 < onekopaka> I don't know if everyone saw Template:Join_template
22:53 < mizmo> we could dig in and do some of the reserach / wiki gardening to make sure the wiki side of it is up-to-date and approachable, but it's not sustainable in the long term, i think we need the individual teams maintaining them
22:53 < ricky> So how will a user get from the marketing page to joining a team once they're all sold on  it?
22:54 < mizmo> ricky, we could do it kind of like the get fedora page lol, which might be kind of cheap but,
22:54 < ivazquez> <a href="/wiki/Join">Join Fedora!</a>
22:54 < mizmo> well let me walk you through what i'm thinking
22:54 < mizmo> 1) i go to join.fedoraproject.org
22:54 < ivazquez> After the brochure, that should be all we need.
22:54 < ricky> onekopaka: Yeah, I linked everybody to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Onekopaka/JoinTemplate
22:54 < ivazquez> If we need more than that when we're doing it wrong.
22:54 < mizmo> i see a very nice splashy page that talks about how fedora is a community and how anybody can pitch in and help out,
22:54 < ivazquez> *then
22:55 < mizmo> and here's the type of people we need. which type of person are you?
22:55 < mizmo> 2) i click on the artsy person link, and i get the artsy person details page
22:55 < mizmo> on the artsy person details page, i see a testimonial from a fedora art team member about how being a member of the art team gave them so much exposure and great resume building experience
22:55 < ricky> Do we feel that the types and the content on http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join could need some work as well?  This goes back to the coder vs. non-coder again, I guess
22:55 < ivazquez> We should get rid of the icons and instead have pictures of current contributors doing the tasks instead.
22:56 < rsc_> Maybe we can rework the /wiki/Join into join.fp.o?
22:56 < mizmo> then i see a chart of the various teams that need artistic help. i see a description of how the docs team needs artists to draw diagrams fr the docs. towards the bottom of the docs team description box, it says, 'sound like fun to you?' next to it is a blue "join now!" button
22:56 < ricky> Picture 1: person staring at a computer, Picture 2: person staring at a computer :-D
22:56 < onekopaka> Ricky: it moved to the template namespace
22:56 < mizmo> 3) i click the blue join button and i'm whisked off to the join the docs team page on the wiki
22:56 < rsc_> ricky: nope.
22:56 < mizmo> ivazquez, i agree the icons were thrown together quickly and not meant to be used for this long lol
22:56 < onekopaka> The join template
22:56 < rsc_> ricky: one hackign at a computer, one talking with people, one working on graphics/figures.
22:56 < mizmo> i gotta run i got a bus to catch
22:56 < mizmo> later peeps
22:57 -!- mizmo is now known as mizmo-out
22:57 < ricky> mizmo: See you, thanks for helping out with this
22:57 < rsc_> ricky: but maybe as a comic-like picture, not as a real picture.
22:57 < ivazquez> Honestly, Join is fine where it is.
22:57 < ivazquez> No, real photos.
22:57 < mizmo-out> ricky, np
22:57 < ricky> Specifics like that can probably be worked out later
22:57 < ivazquez> I want people to see real people contributing to Fedora.
22:58 < mizmo-out> i think thats a good point ivazquez
22:58 < ricky> We do probably have a ton of great photography from FUDCon :-)
22:58 < rsc_> ivazquez: I meant using a real picture but making it comic-like.
22:58 < mizmo-out> a lot of folks at fudcon who had no contributed so much before said they felt more comfortable seeing people
22:58 < mizmo-out> it felt more like a community
22:58 < ricky> +1
22:59 < ivazquez> I want to see spevack standing in front of a group talking to them. I want to see mmcgrath standing in front of a whiteboard sketching out the network.
22:59 < ivazquez> I want to see people doing things for Fedora.
22:59 < rsc_> I want to see ricky designing a website :)
22:59 < ricky> Now that I think about it, those photos would be amazing
23:00 < ivazquez> Yes, the really would.
23:00 < rsc_> ivazquez: if we can resize the pictures well enough, that could get interesting
23:00 < ricky> So do you think the advertisement-like format will solve the "I need to be a coder" problem?
23:01 < ivazquez> No.
23:01 < rsc_> ricky: nope. Only the more human related things.
23:01 < mizmo-out> if they show people who aren't coders they will
23:01 < mizmo-out> really gotta run now lol
23:01 < ricky> OK, then we need to think about how to solve that
23:01 < ivazquez> Nothing other than a multi-million dollar advertising campaign will solve that.
23:01 < ricky> mizmo-out: Don't miss the bus for us :-)
23:01 < ivazquez> TV, newspapers, all that.
23:02 < ricky> I don't know.  If we make this a *big* talking point, I think the press will get ahold of it a bit
23:02 < ivazquez> But we *can* solve the "contributing is not worth my time" problem.
23:02 < ricky> So at least it'd be known to people that read Fedora reviews and stuff like that
23:02 < ricky> For example, everybody associates Fedora with upstream contribution
23:03 < ricky> How hard would it be to associate ourselves with needing non-technical contributors as well?
23:04 < ivazquez> Eleventy-seven.
23:04 < ricky> Actually, I'm pretty sure we could bug stickster_afk into really pushing this point in interviews and stuff :-)
23:04 < rsc_> hard. Fedora is known as "geek distribution" when hearing the noise around.
23:05 < ricky> Heh, I prefer "really likes contributors" to "geek" :-)
23:06 < ricky> OK, so I think we have a much clearer vision of what we want to do with join-fedora now
23:07 < ricky> onekopaka: Improving the wiki join pages will be a big job as well, in addition to the join-fedora work.  And I'll try to work on improving FAS for this as well (for example, making group/list much less prominent)
23:07 < onekopaka> Okay
23:08 < ricky> onekopaka: What was the new link to the join template again?
23:08 < ivazquez> I think we need to get rid of the grey box posthaste.
23:08 < onekopaka> I have robotics things to do
23:08 < ricky> ivazquez: Agreed
23:08 < onekopaka> Template:Join_template
23:09 < onekopaka> Bye
23:09 < ricky> See you
23:10 < ricky> stiv2k: Hey, if you're still around, I have a website edit that needs doing :-)
23:10 -!- onekopaka [n=9281fa64 at c-76-121-249-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #fedora-meeting []
23:10 < ricky> It's just deleting that box, but it'll get you used to the process of pushing changes to the site
23:11 < ricky> Anyway, this was a really useful meeting, everybody - thanks for coming!
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