Meeting Log - 2009-06-19

[Ricky Zhou]

17:00 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Who's here?
17:00 < ricky> hiemanshu, markg85, mizmo, ianweller, mchua, onekopaka_away, nb, anybody I forgot: ping
17:01 < nb> oh
17:01  * nb is here
17:01  * nb forgot about the meeting
17:01  * markg85 is here
17:01  * hiemanshu will be here in 5 mins
17:02 -!- mchua_ [n=mchua at host232.155.212.137.conversent.net] has joined #fedora-websites
17:02 < ricky> mchua_: Hey
17:02 -!- mchua [n=mchua at nat/redhat/x-f7551ede865e4856] has quit Nick collision from services.
17:02 < mchua_> hey, sorry I'm late; took a while to reconnect to wifi.
17:02 < mchua_> can someone pastebin me a backlog?
17:02  * mchua_ pulls up task list
17:03 < ricky> mchua_: http://dpaste.com/57245/
17:03 < mchua_> thanks, ricky
17:03 -!- mchua_ is now known as mchua
17:03 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Release
17:03 < ricky> Everything went pretty smoothly with the release
17:04 < ricky> We tried a new way of working with git branches, which worked out really well :-)
17:04 < mizmo> hi
17:04 < mchua> hey mizmo!
17:04 < ricky> The one hitch was that there were some docs links that weren't right on release day, so we had to do last-minute fixing :-/
17:04 < ricky> Next time, I'll send out "please check this website" emails to websites, docs, and design lists.
17:05 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Task List
17:05  * ricky hands it over to mchua 
17:05 < mchua> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Tasks#The_list
17:05 < mchua> so, people did check their email, and the list should be all up to date :)
17:05  * mchua is new, and begs pardon for the many questions and the learning on the job
17:06 < mchua> but before we all start getting busy again, i was wondering if the team had any targets for f12 - what do we want to accomplish this round?
17:06 < mchua> reading through the list, a lot of things seemed scattered to me, I couldn't tell where it was all going, but I may be missing something
17:07 < mchua> ricky, mizmo, ianweller, quaid, jonmasters... folks who have been around here longer, any thoughts of where we're headed?
17:07  * hiemanshu pardons for being late
17:07 < ricky> My main goal is to get join.fp.o much more friendly.  That'd be a big gain.
17:07 < hiemanshu> ricky, i would rename that as Noob proof
17:08 < hiemanshu> We have people asking us stuff in #fedora that can be found on the site
17:08 < ricky> Ah
17:08 < hiemanshu> for example people asked for links for x86_64
17:08 < ricky> Having join info at fp.o would be nice also because it would be translated.
17:09 < ricky> Ah, x86_64 downloads are another issue we'll have to think on for F12 :-/
17:09 < markg85> ricky, isn't the only thing missing on j.fp.o a clear description of what those category's mean?
17:09 < mizmo> this is really hard to do without understanding what exactly fedora is meant to be
17:09  * mchua agrees with n00bproof join.fp.o, but isn't sure exactly what that means
17:09  * giarc shows up late
17:09 < ricky> mizmo: Sorry, which part were you referring to?
17:10 < mizmo> ricky: are we a distro for developers or are we a 'consumer desktop' distro
17:10 < ricky> I think n00bproof is too strong a term, even.  I can see how a page like http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/PackageMaintainers/Join could be confusing to anybody.
17:10 < mizmo> ricky: the difference between those two is a difference of a million miles in the approach to take for fpo
17:11 < hiemanshu> ricky, we should have explain as though you were teaching a 8 year old
17:11 < ricky> hiemanshu: Based on what you've seen in #fedora - what kind of person do you think wants x86_64 downloads?
17:11 < hiemanshu> ricky, people who just want to try those
17:11 < hiemanshu> The thing is the links are not on the get-fedora page, which should have been there
17:12 < mchua> hrm.
17:12 < hiemanshu> you need to click another button and people ignore that and waste more thing getting that question answered
17:12 < hiemanshu> it should be made obvious to people
17:12 < mizmo> hiemanshu: what kind of people are these? these are technical people no?
17:12 < ricky> Can we profile each specific type of user into more categories than just "developer vs. consumer" ?
17:12 < mchua> so, I'm not sure if this would be a useful metric at all, but https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Brainstorms#j.fp.o_experience was one thing I've been thinking of.
17:12 < hiemanshu> mizmo, non technical
17:12 < mchua> "one possible effectiveness metric for our website might be the number of contributions each release gets from new contributors (i.e. contributors whose first contributions were in that release) - in other words, "does join.fp.o work"?"
17:12 < mizmo> hiemanshu: you're telling me a non-technical person insisted on x86_64?
17:13 < hiemanshu> mizmo, yes
17:13 < mizmo> hiemanshu: if i mentioned the word 'x86_64' to my mom, she would be like, 'huh?'
17:13 < mizmo> hiemanshu: so on the scale of my mom <=> linus torvalds, what do you mean by "non-technical"? because i think we have very different definitions
17:13 < hiemanshu> mizmo, people how have some idea or heard from friends want 64 bit OS just because they have a 64 bit proc
17:13 < mizmo> hiemanshu: the very fact the person was talking to you in IRC right away tells me they are at least a little technical
17:14 < mizmo> hiemanshu: this was in IRC, right?
17:14 < hiemanshu> mizmo, non technical means who does not want to try to get this way around
17:14 < hiemanshu> yes
17:14 < mizmo> my mom doesn't know how to use IRC or even what it is
17:14 < mizmo> hiemanshu: can you reword that? im not sure what you were trying to say
17:14 < hiemanshu> there way*
17:14 < ricky> I'm slightly confused at how somebody knows enough to be aware that there is an x86_64 version, but doens't click the "show me all options" link.
17:15 < ricky> Maybe the wording is confusing?  Should that link be "show me all options" instead of "show me all options on one page" ?
17:15 < hiemanshu> mizmo, according to me a Non Technical user is one who knows he has a computer and a OS, but does not know what to when he has problems and comes to IRC
17:15 < mizmo> well we could make the show me all options stuff more obvious
17:15 < hiemanshu> ricky, below download link add looking for x86_64, find it here
17:15 < mizmo> hiemanshu: okay that's a very big difference in my definition of a non-technical user, who is someone who has a computer perhaps but who doesn't know how to use IRC and just wants to try out linux
17:16 < mchua> so... wait, hang on a second. before we get into the definition of a nontechnical user looking for x86_64 stuff, maybe we should figure out what improvements we want from the website this release.
17:16 < ricky> hiemanshu: That would very possibly be confusing to somebody that doesn't know whether they need x86_64 or not though
17:16 < mchua> hiemanshu, it sounds like you want to make sure folks looking for 64-bit stuff can find it.
17:16 < markg85> Just a crazy idea but what if the download page in done in a question like way?
17:16 < hiemanshu> Make every thing _obvious_ so we dont have people asking us stuff
17:16 < markg85> for example:
17:16 < giarc> if x86_64 is too hard for some users to find, couldn't we just add a lozenge like we have for KDE etc?
17:16 < mizmo> mchua: i think the goal should be, for get.fpo, keep the newb-focused stuff the same, but make the 'more options' link way more obvious
17:16 < markg85> Do you have more than 3GB of memory? (x64)
17:17 < mizmo> giarc: if we added a lozenge for everything people have asked for a lozenge for, the lozenge list would be longer than richard stallman's beard
17:17 < markg85> then download that x64
17:17 < mizmo> markg85: i dont even know how much ram is in my laptop
17:17 < mchua> it's hard to figure out what words like "obvious" and "intuitive" and "user friendly" mean.
17:17 < markg85> mizmo, ^_^
17:17 < ricky> giarc: That's another possibility, but it'd quickly get complicated, because then we'll have to account for KDE x86_64 live media too
17:18 < hiemanshu> markg85, i586 with PAE supports 64GB ram
17:18 < mizmo> mchua: okay make the more options link more prominent and eye catching, is that better than 'obvious' ? o_O
17:18 < hiemanshu> RAM*
17:18 < mizmo> hehe
17:18 < giarc> mizmo, heh, sure...but we *can* continue to say no to all the other requests
17:18 < ricky> Then there will be two links that match somebody that wants the KCD x86_64 live media.
17:18 < markg85> hiemanshu, ... true
17:18 < mchua> mizmo: way better. :)
17:18 < mizmo> giarc: what makes x86_64 more important than all the others?
17:18 < giarc> ricky, had not thought of that
17:18 < giarc> mizmo, nothing, just that seems to be a constant complaint
17:18 < mchua> mizmo: making it prominent and eye catching so that people who want the non-default dl option will be able to find it, I reckon?
17:19 < mizmo> giarc: the others are constant as well :)
17:19 < mizmo> mchua: yep
17:19  * markg85 would still like to point to this option: http://fedora.mageprojects.com/
17:19 < hiemanshu> My aim to decrease people asking the same stuff on #fedora by making it Obvious
17:19 < mchua> markg85 also had a cool idea with the questions-based page, which I'm guessing has a similar motivation... letting people who want (or need, but don't know that they want) the non-default option land at the right place.
17:19  * giarc needs to run for 5 mins ( boss bellowing for me )
17:19 < mizmo> markg85: huh? you're saying we shold go from having 2 links where people complain about not having others, to having one link? and how does that help exactly?
17:19 < hiemanshu> and add a documentation link before download actually starts
17:20 < mchua> hiemanshu so, reducing repetitive questions on #fedora. which you see the x86_64 thing crop up on a lot?
17:20 < mizmo> i think it's okay to have a questions => link for the non-default download page, but not for the front download page
17:20 < ricky> mchua: One general problem we've had with websites is that we don't have a clear decision making process.  That's one other area I'd like to improve.
17:20 < mchua> ricky: I'm starting to understand what you mean by that. :)
17:20 < hiemanshu> mchua, not only those, those are once in a while, but make them so obvious that an 8 year old can download it
17:20 < mizmo> hiemanshu: we have documentation links before the download starts. see the grey 'resources' boxes next to each link?
17:21  * mchua frantically trying to summarize things people want to work on
17:21 < mizmo> we provide the install guide, release notes, and a link to the full docs site
17:21 < hiemanshu> mizmo, i mean people to get-fedora page and start downloading and overlook those resources
17:21 < ricky> mchua: It's tough, because on one hand, we don't want any suggestion to instantly go live, and on the other hand, we don't want suggested changes to completely fall to the side.
17:21 < mizmo> hiemanshu: that is on the get-fedora page.
17:21 < markg85> mizmo, all i'm saying is that it would be a nice idea to have the most common options appear at the download page. If that's like my idea on that link or just 2 seperate links... both will do fine i think
17:21 < markg85> separate
17:22 < hiemanshu> mizmo, change them a little so that people will first click a link where it make it _obvious_ then another link to start download
17:23 < mizmo> hiemanshu: that doesn't make sense to me, though, because you said that people were complaining about having to click another link to get to x86_64. but to me, it sounds like you are suggesting forcing everyone to click another link to get links to documentation?
17:23 < mizmo> i guess i'm simply just not following
17:23 < hiemanshu> mizmo, you have got me wrong
17:23 < markg85> another think i would like a lot is just by looking at the user-agent of the user visiting the download page then select a default download architecture based on that
17:23 < mizmo> it sounds like you are suggesting:    get-fedora => documentation links => download link
17:23 < mchua> okay, uh... hang on. I want to see if I'm hearing everyone correctly here.
17:23 < mchua> mizmo wants to help people who want the non-default dl option find the non-default dl-option by making it more prominent and eye-catching.
17:23 < markg85> the user agent tells the architecture so why not use that valuable info
17:23 < mchua> markg85 wants to help people who want (or need, but don't know that they want) the non-default option land at the right place.
17:23 < mchua> hiemanshu wants to reduce repetitive questions on #fedora (example: x86_64) by making resources that 8-year-olds could use.
17:23 < hiemanshu> get-fedora =>Docs link =>15 sec delay to download
17:24 < mizmo> markg85: how do you know the user is downloading the image for the same computer they have the browser open on?
17:24 < mchua> ricky wants to have a clear decision making process on the websites team that balances ease-of-experimentation with moderation to make sure changes are good ones.
17:24 < mizmo> markg85: in many situations someone is trying to download a linux image for a machine that is broken.
17:24 < mchua> and I'm trying to figure out what the hell is going on. :) and raise the number of new contributors in this release through improving the website.
17:24 < ricky> I'm kind of against going by the user agent.  That can cause major confusion if I go to the library to download Fedora, for example
17:24 < markg85> mizmo, well the same can be asked for the situation as it currently stands. you just don't know
17:25 < mizmo> markg85: right which is why it's better to have the user select than auto select it for them and get it wrong.
17:25  * mchua wonders if we agree on the purpose and audience of the design details we're debating about...
17:25 < hiemanshu> mizmo, where there is a download now button add another button download x86_64
17:25 < mizmo> markg85: if the page changes based on the machine you're on, then it becomes more difficult for folks like hiemanshu to help people because they may not even be looking at the same page anymore
17:25 < mizmo> mchua: i think we really need to start there
17:25 < hiemanshu> and below that why x86_64
17:26 < markg85> mizmo, true
17:26 < mizmo> i do not want to add more buttons to the main get fedora page.
17:26 < mizmo> there are enough as it is.
17:26 < mizmo> we worked really hard to simplify it down to where it's at now.
17:26 < mizmo> i think the problem with get fedora
17:26 < mizmo> is that it's difficult for more technical users to use.
17:26 < ricky> If the x86_64 link on get-fedora is as prominent as the 32 bit one, you will almost definitely get new questions in #fedora asking whether people need 32 bit or 64 bit.
17:26 < ricky> I've seen that myself back when get-fedora was http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora-all
17:26 < mizmo> so i think our goal for f12 should be to address the 'view more options' so that it's easier to find for those users.
17:26 < hiemanshu> ricky, that why i said a link below to a page why x64
17:27 < markg85> mizmo, my issue with getting f11 x64 was that it's currently guesswork to even find it
17:27 < mchua> uh... folks, before we start talking about specific implementation ideas, can we take a step back and breathe a little and figure out where everyone is coming from?
17:27 < mizmo> markg85: exactly. so we shold make the full page of 'other options' easier for you to find
17:27 < ricky> hiemanshu: Nobody ever clicks those links.  If anybody bothered to click the install guide linnk first, all their questions would be answered.
17:27 < mchua> I'm feeling a bit like I'm watching ships pass each other in the night right now...
17:27 < mizmo> markg85: eg we could have a button that says, 'View more options (x86_64, ppc, KDE, and more)'
17:27  * giarc is back, ( june birthdays here at work... )
17:28 < mchua> hey, giarc. discussion is a bit scattered at the moment. I'm trying to keep up with all the threads. :)
17:28 < hiemanshu> ricky, yeah that could be one thing, people just dont want to read
17:28 < ricky> mizmo: Ooh, that's a good idea.
17:28 < markg85> mizmo, that's yet another possible idea
17:28 < mizmo> ricky: yeh we could do them in fine print
17:28 < ricky> Yeah.
17:28 < mizmo> ricky: so people looking for the keyword 'x86_64' would skim and it would jump out at them
17:29 < ricky> As it is, I'm not crazy about grouping KDE and PPC together :-(
17:29 < mizmo> ricky: then we avoid having a matrix of the combinatorial options on the front page, but at tthe same time the keywords the technical users are working for are there
17:29 < giarc> mizmo, sort of like a tag cloud?
17:29 < ricky> Yes, that's good.
17:29 < hiemanshu> Yes thats better
17:29 < mizmo> giarc: sort of. i wouldn't do the different font sizes the way a tag cloud is though.
17:29 < mizmo> giarc: they should be consistent
17:29 < markg85> a reason why people don't look at the install guide (didn't look at it myself so just guessing here) is that there is so much text in it that it scares people away
17:29 < ricky> I agree with markg85 
17:29 < giarc> mizmo, right, ok
17:29 < mizmo> people don't want to read text on get.fpo. they want to get f. :)
17:29 < hiemanshu> markg85, +1
17:29 < mizmo> any solution that involves users reading more text = FAIL
17:30 < hiemanshu> people hate to READ
17:30 < ricky> Here's a sad fact:
17:30 < markg85> i personally always move away from pages that have way to much text :P
17:30 < ricky> The table of contents of our install guide: http://docs.fedoraproject.org/install-guide/f11/en-US/html/ is about as long as the entire openSUSE Live CD install guide: http://en.opensuse.org/Installation/11.1_Live_CD
17:30 < markg85> specially if they start with a bunch of notices at the top
17:30 < mizmo> yet people keep propposing we add more text ot the screen :)
17:30 < ricky> And their install guide is filled with screenshots too.
17:30 < ricky> I want an install guide like that :-)
17:30 < mizmo> ricky: that's insane
17:30 < ricky> (And here's their DVD install guide: http://en.opensuse.org/Installation/11.1_DVD_Install)
17:30 < hiemanshu> ricky, i could try that
17:31 < ricky> To anybody interested on working on something like that: Please make sure to talk to the docs team first
17:31 < ricky> I wouldn't want to start any documentation projects without letting them know and hearing their thoughts on it first.
17:31 < hiemanshu> ricky, i ll do this part, i ll write the install Docs with Screens
17:31 < giarc> ricky, wow, that is striking
17:32 < mizmo> the docs team is planning a new system for displaying the docs
17:32 < markg85> ricky, well.. you can make all the screenshots prior to making the documentation..(or not?)
17:32 < hiemanshu> markg85, you can
17:32 < markg85> hiemanshu, if i install fedora i might just do that :D
17:32 < ricky> markg85: Making the screenshots shouldn't be an issue, the main thing would be communicating to the docs team about this
17:32 < hiemanshu> markg85, we can take this up together. what say?
17:33 < markg85> hiemanshu, ask me again after my exams in just over one week
17:33 < mizmo> okay so, so far our goals for f12 are:
17:33 < mizmo> - make get.fpo better for technical users
17:33 < ricky> mizmo: Do you know if they're looking at changing the format of the docs, or just the infrastructure for the docs site?
17:33 < mizmo> - makes docs.fpo better
17:33 < mizmo> ricky: not sure :( i would imagine both
17:33 < ricky> Hopefully :-)
17:34 < mizmo> do we have any other goals for f12
17:34 < mizmo> i have one :)
17:34 < mizmo> - improve www.fpo. it's a bit sparse right now. we could have a bit more information on what fedora is and why you'd want to use it. a section with profiles of real fedora users with picutres
17:34 < markg85> mizmo, just wondering.. are there plans for a new decoration theme in fedora 12?
17:35 -!- mchua_ [n=mchua at nat/redhat/x-ffcdfe22a665039d] has joined #fedora-websites
17:35 < ricky> - Get a decision-making process that we can stick to :-)
17:35 < hiemanshu> mizmo, a user gallery
17:35 < mizmo> markg85: what do you mean by decoration theme?
17:35 < markg85> mizmo, a nodoka replacement?
17:35 < mizmo> hiemanshu: yeh exactly! a gallery of real fedora users, where you can learn how fedora changed their life kind of thing
17:35  * mchua_ wonders if she got disconnected, and sheepishly asks for another backlog.
17:35 < mizmo> markg85: not afaik
17:35  * mchua_ vows to get a proxy this weekend.
17:35 < ricky> mchua_: http://ricky.fedorapeople.org/2009-06-19.log
17:35 < giarc> ricky, +1
17:36 < mchua_> Thanks again, ricky.
17:36 -!- mchua [n=mchua at host232.155.212.137.conversent.net] has quit Nick collision from services.
17:36 -!- mchua_ is now known as mchua
17:36 < mizmo> okay so we have 4 goals so far
17:36 < markg85> mizmo, oke. i really would like to see something else other then that blue stuff
17:36 < mizmo> 1) get.fpo
17:36 < mizmo> 2) www.fpo
17:36 < mizmo> 3) docs.fpo
17:36 < mizmo> 4) decision process
17:36 < hiemanshu> mizmo, something like where people can add their own images and say something
17:36 < ricky> mizmo: Also join.fp.o :-)
17:36 < hiemanshu> mizmo, 5) User Gallery
17:36 < mizmo> markg85: okay but right now we're having a websites meeting. i suggest bringing that up on the design team list
17:37 < ricky> One thing I'd like everybody to keep in mind is that everything we do has to be translatable.
17:37 < markg85> mizmo, ^_^ sorry, for me websites is designing as well
17:37 < ricky> I know it can feel limiting at times, but I really don't want to move back to relying on things that are 100% English-only.
17:38 < hiemanshu> ricky, is there a Geo IP redirector?
17:38 < mizmo> ricky: has anything we've proposed so far been problematic for translation?
17:38 < mizmo> ricky: or is just the timing so we can get translations out a concern?
17:39 < ricky> mizmo: I haven't sen anything yet other than RSS feeds.
17:39 < mizmo> k
17:39 < mchua> current list o' goal-ness: get.fpo, www.fpo, docs.fpo, decision process, user gallery, join.fpo, translation.
17:39 < ricky> News is a tough one.  I'd love to have news on the site, but I wouldn't want english-only news front and center on the Chinese home page.
17:39  * markg85 note to self: install fedora 11 in dutch and see how much is really dutch
17:39 < mizmo> any other ideas? or should we move on to prioritization?
17:40 < hiemanshu> mizmo, Geo IP redirector
17:40 < mchua> +1 prioritization
17:40 < ricky> hiemanshu: That's probably an infrastructure team thing :-)
17:40 < hiemanshu> thats with the websites right? must be wrong :P
17:40 < ricky> We try to keep the pages totally static so that it's a breeze on release day though.
17:41 < mizmo> i think maybe get.fpo should be a top priority cuz we get so many complaints
17:41 < ricky> mizmo: +1 to moving on prioritization
17:41 < hiemanshu> ricky, auto redirect to the local language, is it there or needs to be implemented?
17:41 < ricky> 17:41:06 < mizmo> i think maybe get.fpo should be a top priority cuz we get so many complaints
17:41 < mizmo> decision process too
17:41 < ricky> hiemanshu: That's implemented in that if you set your language priorities in your browser, you'll see the right one automatically.
17:41 < mchua> mizmo: maybe we should have everyone reorder the list the way they think it should be prioritised
17:41 < mchua> and see where we end up
17:42 < hiemanshu> mizmo, make the goals list and we know how to prioritize them
17:42 < mchua> hiemanshu: get.fpo
17:42 < mchua> www.fpo
17:42 < mchua> docs.fpo
17:42 < mchua> decision process
17:42 < mchua> user gallery
17:42 < mchua> join.fpo
17:43 < ricky> Here's my tohught: get.fpo, decision process, docs.fpo, join.fpo, www.fpo, user gallery (and translation is something that happens throughout)
17:43 < mchua> translation
17:43 < ricky> **thought
17:43 < mchua> (that was a list, not my ordering)
17:43 < mizmo> ricky: i'd bump www a bit higher just because of its prominence
17:43 < mizmo> maybe swap docs and www
17:43 < mchua> my ordering is join.fpo
17:43 < mchua> decision process
17:43 < mchua> get.fpo
17:43 < mchua> docs.fpo
17:43 < mchua> www.fpo
17:43 < mchua> user gallery
17:43 < mchua> translation
17:43 < ricky> mizmo: I'm trying to think in terms of "what does a user want to do that's currently hard for them to do"
17:44 < hiemanshu> get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, join.fpo, user gallery
17:44 < mchua> markg85, thoughts?
17:44 < markg85> my order: get.fpo www.fpo join.fpo user gallery decision process
17:44 < markg85> translation
17:44 < mchua> I think we have a clear front-runner with get.fpo.
17:44 < ricky> I see "get documentation/help" as a more important task than "find out what Fedora is" for now, although maybe I can be convinced otherwise :-)
17:45 < mchua> does anyone other than me think something is more important than get.fpo in terms of work-on priority?
17:45 < mchua> I'm *totally* willing to be convinced of this.
17:45  * giarc needs to run, can some one post a log of the meeting so I can catch up?
17:45 < ricky> giarc: Will do, thanks for coming!
17:45 < markg85> and why. get and www are identical to me. join.fpo is slightly more annoying
17:45 < giarc> thanks ricky
17:45 < ricky> mizmo: www is talking about the main page more, while get is specifically about the get-fedora page
17:46 < ricky> join.fp.o and docs.fp.o are both thing that span over into a bunch of other groups in the Fedora Project.
17:46 < hiemanshu> ricky, my order is in what users actually do
17:46 < mizmo> ricky: if the front page of fpo isn't appealing, you wont have people needing to get help with it
17:47 < mizmo> :)
17:47 < hiemanshu> mizmo, i dont think most of the people would even join, you might get people to docs and not join
17:47 < ricky> I guess, but I don't really see our front page as the way that most people find out what Fedora is right now (although that could be seen as a problem that we need to fix)
17:47 -!- Sonar_Guy [n=Who at fedora/sonarguy] has joined #fedora-websites
17:47  * mchua notes that ultimately, people will vote with their feet, so the stuff that happens is the stuff individuals are going to want to work on themselves
17:47  * mchua looks back at votes
17:47 < ricky> Rather, I think most people get directed to fp.o through things like news sites, or other things which is where they first find out exactly what Fedoar is.
17:48 < ricky> **Fedora
17:48 < markg85> people please know the first impressions rule
17:48 < markg85> they are what makes a person join or leave
17:49 < mizmo> ricky: it is the 'official' definition of what fedora is though (or at least it should be) because we can't control what news media outlets explain us as (and sometimes they get it quite wrong)
17:49 < markg85> right now (just being fair) my first impressions with both the fedora site and distribution are far from good and i'm in this world for a few years
17:49 < ricky> True.  I don't think I'm fully clear on exactly what we're trying to do with the front page
17:49 < mchua> I agree with markg85; first impressions are important.
17:49 < markg85> fedora runs good one just ONE pc here (and there are roughly 6)
17:49 < hiemanshu> To tell the truth fp.o just isnt attractive
17:49 < mchua> So, I tallied up all our priority lists.
17:49 < mchua> get.fpo is the front-runner. decision process is not far behind. www.fpo, docs.fpo, and join.fpo seem more or less on par... not many people incredibly excited about translation or user gallery, but that could be a small-team-takes-it-on thing.
17:50 < markg85> so making that very abstract it means that fedora runs as intended on 1 out of every 7 pc's!! that's not good at all
17:50 < mchua> all these are separate pieces - separate pieces that interact, but separate pieces.
17:50 < mizmo> ricky: well right now the front page is kind of bare. visiting it, you don't really get an idea of why you would want to use fedora or what it can do for you
17:50 < ricky> markg85: That is probably a development issue and maybe not websites though.
17:50 < mizmo> ricky: i'd like it to be more like the fedora community tour page
17:50 < ricky> I'd love to have something like that.
17:51 < mizmo> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/community/pages/tour/
17:51 < mchua> question: does anybody want to run point on the fp.o page?
17:51 < markg85> ricky, i know but that issue ends up by a person going to the fedora website
17:51 < mizmo> we break it down and explain what YOU can do with it
17:51 < markg85> and that's where they find... not what they are looking for: answers
17:51 < ricky> All right, so I'll agree with www being before docs then :-)
17:52  * Cheshirc wanders in
17:52 < ricky> So what's next now that we have some priorities?  Should we start discussing each in detail and getting some research into what we need?
17:52 < mchua> my impression of current order: get.fpo is the front-runner. decision process is not far behind. www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo in that order. nobody really picking up on translation or user gallery.
17:52 < mizmo> sounds right mchua
17:52 < mchua> well, i think we need to figure out who's going to run point on each thing.
17:52 < markg85> and please all of you look with a objective view at fp.o and tell me what you see
17:52 < mizmo> mchua: well except i think translation is a thread that runs across all of them
17:52 < ricky> mchua: Translation isn't so much of a task on its own, just something to keep in mind throughout.
17:52 < mchua> because right now we have N cooks trying to make N pots of soup.
17:53 < markg85> what i see: a superman packager !!! and a very short description of fedora
17:53 < mchua> ok, then someone should be on point for making sure translation is incorporated into all projects.
17:53 < mchua> else we'll drop translation and then look back at f12 and go *wap* why did we forget?
17:53 < mizmo> ricky: do you have those top 10 tasks for www.fpo handy somewhere?
17:53 < mizmo> i vaguely remember them being on your fedora people site?
17:53 < ricky> Let me find those
17:53 < mchua> the problem i've seen here in the brief time I've been around is that people keep colliding into each others work
17:54 < hiemanshu> mizmo, one immediate thing is to update MediaWiki
17:54 < mchua> http://ricky.fedorapeople.org/fedora-web
17:54 < mchua> mizmo: ^
17:54 < ricky> Ah, cool.
17:54 < ricky> THanks
17:54 < ricky> hiemanshu: That's kind of a separate issue that will have to be discussed with Infrastructure
17:54 < ricky> But like I told you, it's not very likely unless there is a serious pressing need.
17:54 < markg85> mizmo, could you tell me what you currently like on fp.o?
17:55 < mchua> markg85, hiemanshu, can we hang on a moment until we figure out who's working on what?
17:55 < mizmo> so our get.fpo goal we're prioritized highly today
17:55 < hiemanshu> ricky, following the Fedora rule, latest and greatest
17:55  * ricky certainly likes get-fedora.  It's one of the pages that we've put the most work/polish into.
17:55 < mizmo> is #8 on the fedora-web list
17:55  * markg85 waits...
17:55 < mchua> thanks markg85 :)
17:55 < mizmo> we've got #1 on that list done
17:55 < mizmo> #2 is our docs.fpo item from today
17:55  * hiemanshu sits next to markg85 
17:55 < mizmo> #3 is the www.fpo item, and #5 is also
17:55 < mizmo> #4 is join .fpo
17:56 < mizmo> #6 - what's happening in fedora - we haven't really identified today so we can drop it in priority
17:56 < mchua> even after looking at the old list, I'd go by the ordering we chose before. It seems more... pertinent to right now.
17:56 < mizmo> #9 fedora bling - we didnt bring that up - but i think it's good too. if we had something like spreadfirefox.com but for fedora
17:56 < mizmo> mchua: i think #8 in the old list needs to be #1 now though
17:56 < hiemanshu> mizmo, fedora shop?
17:57 < ricky> Yeah.
17:57 < mchua> mizmo: yeah, I meant the one we just did in this channel with get.fp.o as #1
17:57 < mizmo> mchua: oh i agree we should stick with the ordering we came up with today
17:57 < mizmo> mchua: sorry i misunderstood ya
17:57 < ricky> hiemanshu: Hehe, that's another thing that has been discussed with fedora marketing, but not much luck :-(  I'd love to see the efforts for that start up again
17:57 < mchua> the old list has tonnes of resources though which is great
17:57 < hiemanshu> ricky, i can help push up people
17:58 < ricky> hiemanshu: spevack is one person that I remember heading that up, he can probably get you in touch with whoever has the latest on that.
17:58 < mizmo> i would like to take point on get.fpo
17:58 < mchua> so our ordering from the discussion just now is get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo, translation, and user gallery.
17:58 < hiemanshu> mchua, user gallery one step up please
17:59 < ricky> Decision process is still a tough one that will be a part of everything else :-(
17:59 < mchua> hiemanshu: get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo, user gallery, and translation. though things won't be done unless someone steps up like mizmo just did for get.fp.o.
18:00 < mchua> +1 to mizmo taking point on get.fp.o, btw. :)
18:00 < ricky> Mind if we discuss some of the properties of a good decision making process for a moment?
18:00 < mchua> can we have other people step up to take point on some other stuff first?
18:00 < hiemanshu> mchua, i am a PHP guy and go the user gallery
18:00 < mchua> hiemanshu: you want to take point on the user gallery?
18:00 < hiemanshu> do the*
18:00 < ricky> I'll gladly take docs.fp.o and decision process
18:00 < mizmo> good decision making process != saying yes to every suggestion, because that's like making dinner by dumping out the contents of your fridge into a pot.
18:00 < hiemanshu> mchua, yes
18:01 < markg85> mchua, i'm joist going for www.fp.o and get.fp.o
18:01 < markg85> just*
18:01 < hiemanshu> i ll help markg85 with www.fp.o
18:01 < mchua> sweet. okay, we have mizmo on get.fp.o, hiemanshu on the user gallery, markg85 on www.fp.o and working with mizmo on get.fp.o, ricky on decisionmaking process and docs.fp.o, which is perfect because I wanted to work on join.fp.o.
18:01 < mizmo> id like to take the make www.fpo have a section like the fedora community tour section task but its a subtask of www.fpo
18:01 < markg85> hiemanshu, add your name to it on the wiki plz
18:01 < mchua> nobody is doing translation yet.
18:01 < ricky> Some properties I desire of a decision making process:
18:01 < hiemanshu> markg85, where?
18:02 < ricky> 1) Not a dictatorship :-)
18:02 < markg85> hiemanshu, brainstorms?
18:02 < ricky> 2) Bad ideas (for some definition of bad) get rejected
18:02 < ricky> 3) Good ideas (for some definition of good) don't get sidelined
18:02  * markg85 would like the time now
18:02  * mchua checks list: mizmo on get.fp.o, with markg85's help, hiemanshu on the user gallery, markg85 on www.fp.o with hiemanshu's help, ricky on decisionmaking process and docs.fp.o, mchua on join.fp.o, translation as a "we need to find someone."
18:02 < mizmo> backseat driving is undesirable i think
18:03 < mchua> markg85: it's 2:04pm, or 18:04 UTC if I did math correctly.
18:03 < ricky> The definitions of good and bad will be deeply tied into what the goal and the target audience of the website is.
18:03 < mchua> 2:04 for me in Boston, EST.
18:03  * markg85 is not pointing to the real time :P
18:03  * mchua is confused
18:03 < hiemanshu> 23:34 here
18:03  * markg85 means the time to propose something here
18:03 < mizmo> ricky: which we still haven't really solidifed on :(
18:03 < ricky> markg85: Propose away.
18:04 < markg85> oke
18:04 < ricky> mizmo: Yeah.  It's important that we do so that we have a basis for saying yes and no to things instead of bickering endlessly :-/
18:04 < markg85> mizmo, ricky mchua hiemanshu : i would like you all to go to fp.o and get.fp.o and write down what you really like. because the rest is what has to change or go
18:05  * hiemanshu will be back in 10 mins
18:05 < markg85> personally i like nothing on www.fp.o and just a few things in get.fp.o
18:05 < ricky> That's kind of subjective.
18:05 < ricky> I'd rather have the purpose/audience in mind for the website before doing something like ths.
18:05 < mchua> markg85: +1 - I'll do it, can you shoot out an email to the list reminding people? some folks couldn't make this meeting but would probably chime in.
18:05 < markg85> ricky, it is but if we combine all our opinions ^_^
18:05 < mizmo> i dont think thats useful if we dont know who our audience is
18:05 < mchua> ricky: anything we do would be subjective; I don't think it's going to get us everything, but I think it's a good starting point.
18:06 < mizmo> we should rather, for each target audience user type, summarize what that type of user would like vs wouldn't like about the site
18:06 < ricky> I'd rather phrase the like/dislike thing as: X user in our target audience will have a hard time doing Y task in our website's purpose.
18:06 < mizmo> if www.fpo was targeted for me, it would be mostly blank
18:06 < ricky> Instead of "X is ugly, I don't like it"
18:06 < mchua> we're also users. we're not the only users, and we're a special weird involved type of user, but we're users, and this will also help us get our assumptions on the table.
18:06 < hiemanshu> mizmo, as i said, make it so anyone who reads likes it
18:06 < mizmo> the user classifications we could target
18:06 < ricky> I think that is totally impossible :-)
18:07 < mchua> besides, if markg85 is running with this, then that's his prerogative. :)
18:07 < mizmo> (1) i've never used linux before. i don't know what IRC is. i heard i should try it because it would make bill gates cry.
18:07 < markg85> i just think this would be a very nice point to start with
18:07 < mizmo> (2) i've used linux before, but not fedora. you'll have to win me over.
18:07 < markg85> mchua, yes i will run this
18:07 < mizmo> (3) i've been using fedora 4eva and it's awesome!
18:07 < mizmo> i think depending on which section we've got, we'd care about 1, 2, or 3 in a different priority order
18:07 < mchua> mizmo, ricky - well, markg85 isn't saying "everybody has to do this," he's saying "if you could do this please, it would help me think about some things I might not be considering just yet."
18:08 < mizmo> for www.fpo we would care more about 1 & 2
18:08 < ricky> Maybe what we need is a feedback form or email.
18:08 < ricky> Like: Let us know what you're doing with Fedora at blah at fp.o
18:08 < markg85> mchua, i will add that task to.. myself on the tasklist
18:08 < ricky> Because I have absolutely no idea what types of users are
18:08 < mchua> if people want to do that, they can do that. markg85 was telling us what he's planning on doing with the project he offered to run point on.
18:09 < hiemanshu> We should have something on first page like, here for the first time, back again
18:09 < mizmo> im not going to do it because i dont think my opinion is very useful
18:09 < mizmo> :(
18:09 < hiemanshu> i ll do it
18:09 < mchua> similarly, if mizmo asks for a hand on get.fp.o, she'll ask us to pitch in, and ricky was asking for input on decisionmaking a few minutes ago and people were chiming in...
18:09 < markg85> I would say: first ask it on the websites list. if the feedback is to diverse there (thus not useful) then move it to a more populated list like jsut fedora
18:09 < hiemanshu> and help markg85 with that
18:10 < mizmo> the problem is that
18:10 < mizmo> if you dont think about the audience you are trying to reach
18:10 < mizmo> and you just randomly ask people
18:10 < mizmo> your results are going to be way skewed
18:10 < mizmo> and probably not in a way you would want them to be if you had actually thought about what audience you want to reach first
18:10 < mizmo> if you know the audience you want to reach, then you can survey THEM
18:10 < ricky> I don't think we're applying the soon-to-be extant decision making process here.
18:10 < mizmo> and weigh the results appropriately based on who answered the question
18:10  * ricky agrees with mizmo
18:10 < mizmo> and how high on your priority list that user class is
18:10 < mizmo> eg
18:11 < hiemanshu> mizmo, +1
18:11 < mchua> I agree, and I also think that this shouldn't stop markg85 from moving forward.
18:11 < mizmo> if linus torvalds tells me he thinks get.fpo sucks
18:11 < mizmo> but i want to target people who have never used linux before
18:11 < markg85> mizmo, i agree and disagree
18:11 < mizmo> than linus' opinion is probably not something i should weigh as heavily as the girl walking down the sidewalk
18:11 < mizmo> who doesnt use linux
18:11 < markg85> mizmo, you just have to start somewhere
18:11 < mchua> markg85 + 1
18:11 < mizmo> markg85: you have to know where you are going before you can start walking there
18:12 < mizmo> if you head off without a map you dont know if you're going to end up anywhere useful and how much time you are going to waste going the wrong way
18:12 < ricky> I just don't want to have flamewars based on subjective opinions start up.  Please :-)
18:12 < mchua> mizmo + 1 also. I think the "know what you're aiming for" thing is a very good thing. I also think that knowing that *while* starting means you'll eventually figure it out.
18:12 < markg85> mizmo, the users don't mather for me because every single one will do fine. users from websites: fine. users from documentation: fine.. anyone is fine so there is no real target
18:12 < mchua> or rather, that if you know you don't know, and start moving with that in mind, you'll soon know.
18:12 < mizmo> huh
18:13  * mchua blinks, reboots mel.speaks_english module
18:13 < mizmo> markg85: if our target was beginning linux users, the resulting design would be a million miles away from a design primarily targeted for experience technical users
18:13 < ricky> I think we have some fundamentally conflicting opinions about what information to use and what information to discard thoguh.
18:13 < ricky> **though
18:13 -!- onekopaka_away is now known as onekopaka
18:13 < onekopaka> hello.
18:13 < mizmo> i mean heres the thing right
18:13  * mchua has to leave in 15 minutes.
18:13 < mizmo> what i do, is design UI
18:13 < mizmo> and there's a process to it
18:14 < mchua> hey onekopaka - you came in the middle of a somewhat frantic meeting. :)
18:14 < mizmo> and one of the essential things you have to identify up front, is who is this UI for
18:14 < markg85> mizmo, you are right but right now i see fp.o as (boldly said) useless. so in my point of view anything and any input will do fine
18:14 < mizmo> if i went and designed UIs willy-nilly asking my friends what they thought about it, i would be making a big mistake
18:14 < onekopaka> mchua: I ran from my school bus home.
18:14 < onekopaka> to home*
18:14 < markg85> mizmo, once there is some input from one list (websites) you can choose to get further with other groups or bast "the new design" on just the input from the websites list
18:14 < markg85> hey onekopaka
18:14  * onekopaka catches up
18:15 < mizmo> markg85: the reason www.fpo sucks RIGHT NOW is because that is the approach that has been taken in the past - it doesn't matter
18:15 < ricky> What if the input is wrong?  What do we do then?
18:15 < mchua> onekopaka: we're talking about the projects we want to work on for f12 - in order, they're get.fpo, decision process, www.fpo, docs.fpo, and then join.fpo, translation, and user gallery.
18:15 < hiemanshu> Make some assumptions, and work out the best we can
18:15 < mizmo> markg85: but what i am telling you right now as a professional design practicioner is that is the wrong approach, a good design hinges on identifying and prioritizing your target users
18:15 < markg85> mizmo, then where do you suggest i gather feedback?
18:15 < mizmo> markg85: it depends who you have identified as your target users!
18:15 < mchua> onekopaka: right now it's mizmo on get.fp.o, with markg85's help, hiemanshu on the user gallery, markg85 on www.fp.o with hiemanshu's help, ricky on decisionmaking process and docs.fp.o, mchua on join.fp.o, translation as a "we need to find someone."
18:15 < mizmo> markg85: if your target users are beginners, then you go to where you can talk to beginners and ask them
18:16 < mizmo> markg85: if your target users are experienced hackers, then you go and ask experienced hackers what they think
18:16 < markg85> mizmo, that's the biggest problem of fedora.. there isn't one group!
18:16 < onekopaka> yep
18:16 < mizmo> markg85: if you dont think about *who* you are talking to, you're going to get way skewed results
18:16 < mizmo> markg85: that's right there are multiple groups,
18:16 < mizmo> (1) never used linux before
18:16 < hiemanshu> you make a general idea of stuff and continue
18:16 < mizmo> (2) have some tech experience, used another linux
18:16 < mizmo> (3) current fedora users
18:16 < mizmo> what we should decide
18:16 < mizmo> is in what order do we care about these users
18:16 < mizmo> for each project we are talking about taking on
18:16 < mizmo> then
18:16 < markg85> oke stop :P
18:16 < mizmo> you can ask epople in each category, but weigh them appropriately
18:17 < hiemanshu> we care for 1 first and then 2
18:17 < mizmo> hiemanshu: i agree
18:17  * ricky agrees as well
18:17 < mizmo> hiemanshu: for www.fpo we care about 1, then 2
18:17 < markg85> mizmo, then lets say i want to target beginning linux users. users that have installed fedora but not users that haven't used any linux ever yet
18:17 < mizmo> hiemanshu: for docs.fpo, we care a little less about 1, because if they don't use it they don't need help yet
18:17  * mchua looks at the time, and now has to leave in 10 minutes. Can we move towards wrapping up?
18:17 < ricky> Perhaps for join.fp.o, we care more about 2 and 3.
18:17 < mizmo> markg85: then talk to beginner users and ask them what they care about www.fpo
18:17 < mchua> can any of this discussion go to list, or to next week?
18:17 < markg85> mizmo, so where do i start then and that's probably the biggest group :P
18:17 < hiemanshu> ricky, i would say 3 for join.fpo
18:18 < ricky> mchua: I think it might be good to get some of these disagreements worked out - we'll post logs to list later if you have to go
18:18 < markg85> mizmo, i did on my school with 5 persons and all where ashamed that opensource software brings that crap out.. and they said that because it wasn't fully working on any of there pc's
18:18 < mizmo> markg85: thats neither here nor there, though
18:19 < ricky> OK, so now that we have some groups and some priorities, where do we go from here?
18:19 < hiemanshu> ricky, Feedback
18:19 < hiemanshu> from users
18:19 < markg85> finally we are moving a bit
18:19 < mizmo> i dont know if i can meet next week because ill be in berlin
18:19 < mizmo> but what i will try to do
18:20 < mizmo> is have a summary of get.fpo tasks to usability test
18:20 < mizmo> and maybe some initial test results
18:20 < ricky> Cool.
18:20 < ricky> mizmo: For the rest of us, can you give some advice on how to go about getting these tests/feedback?
18:21 < mizmo> maybe a good systematic approach that you can adapt as you've got resources
18:21 < mizmo> is have a print out of the page(s) you're working on
18:21 < mizmo> and show it to three never-used-linux-before people (maybe parents, maybe friends, maybe co-workers)
18:22 < mizmo> then take some screenshots and make them available somewhere maybe on the wiki
18:22 < mizmo> and go into different tech IRC channels and try to grab 3 people who are familiar with linux
18:22 < onekopaka> Mozilla's feedback system, Hendrix, seems like a good tool for collecting feedback
18:22 < mizmo> and then go into #fedora-devel to get feedback from experience hackers
18:22 < mizmo> and for the page you're working on
18:22 < mizmo> come up with a list of questions to get feedback on
18:22 < mizmo> eg for get.fpo i'm going to ask
18:22 < mizmo> 'if you wanted to download x86_64, what would you click on?'
18:23 < mizmo> 'if you were going to install fedora on your machine today, which link would you click on?'
18:23 < mizmo> have at least 5 questoins to ask and note any other stuff the people you talk to note about the page
18:23 < mizmo> onekopaka: ive not heard of it
18:23 < onekopaka> mizmo: yep. http://hendrix.mozilla.org/
18:23 < hiemanshu> make the default page for Mozilla a feedback page
18:24 < onekopaka> mizmo: and the source is in mozilla CVS in mozilla/webtools/hendrix
18:24  * mizmo takes a look
18:24 < mizmo> onekopaka: i think having osmething like that for the website would be good (altohugh we already get messages to webmaster at fpo)
18:24 < mizmo> but here we're talking more about very targeted feedback
18:24 < mizmo> in response to questions/tasks we come up with rather than open format
18:24 < onekopaka> yeah
18:24 < onekopaka> but feedback in general
18:25 < ricky> Yeah, webmaster@ email is usually not very feedback-related at the moment.
18:26 < onekopaka> it's more complaining about servers that aren't ours
18:26 < ricky> Heh
18:26  * onekopaka curses underneath his breath about those emails
18:26 < ricky> OK, so tasks for next week:
18:26 < mizmo> hehe
18:27 < ricky> Can all task owners strat a thread on the mailing list stating their task and actoins
18:27 < ricky> Then they can post updates on that thread?
18:27 < mizmo> sure
18:27 < hiemanshu> ricky, i am new here so might need some help :P
18:27 < onekopaka> hiemanshu: you're on the fedora-websites-list, right?
18:28 < hiemanshu> just joined in
18:28 < ricky> So one task is to gather feedback in the way that mizmo described
18:28 < ricky> For any person that you interview, make sure to get some background on what category of user they fall in.
18:28 < onekopaka> ricky: should I be updating the task list on the wiki at this point?
18:29 < ricky> onekopaka: That'd be great if you can
18:29 < markg85> mizmo, sant me to go through with asking for feedback on fp.o on the websites mailing list or now? the question i will ask is: What do you really like about this site: fp.o, get.fp.o. If it where gone what would you miss?
18:29 < onekopaka> mmkay I've got it open in my browser for editing
18:29 < markg85> sant = want
18:29 < ricky> mizmo: Does that sound like the right kind of question, or do you have any other suggestions for markg85?
18:30 < mizmo> markg85: that sounds like the right question but i dont think the websites list is the right place to ask
18:30 < ricky> Should the questions be more task-focused?
18:30 < ricky> Like: Show me what you would do if you wanted to download the x86_64 KDE live cd
18:30 < mizmo> ricky: yeh, for www.fpo though forming a task like that is a bit trickier
18:30 < ricky> True.
18:30 < mizmo> markg85: i can handle asking the questions for get.fpo if you can handle www.fpo
18:30 < markg85> mizmo, want me to crosspost it to: fedora, fedora-devel, fedora-websites and fedora-design ?
18:31 < mizmo> markg85: i think the question you've come up with will work for www.fpo
18:31 < mizmo> markg85: i wouldn't spam mailing lists, i would ask in the venues i suggested above (friends, #fedora, #fedora-devel)
18:31 < ricky> markg85: People in real life could be good as well - especially for the people that don't know what Fedora or Linux is
18:31 < hiemanshu> I change that and put it up for User Gallery
18:33 < onekopaka> ricky: I think we should really have a Websites/Tasks/Feedback page for Feedback-related tasks to keep the task list cleaner
18:33 < onekopaka> ricky: what do you think about that?
18:34 < ricky> Yeah, that sounds better than spamming the mailing list
18:34 < hiemanshu> onekopaka, +1
18:34 < nb> ricky, /me would go to torrents to download everything :)
18:34 < nb> but i dont know how many people know about torrents.fedoraproject.org
18:34 < ricky> OK, so does everybody know what to work on?  If so, we can close for the week :-)
18:34 < onekopaka> recently, I've been cleaning the wiki up
18:35  * hiemanshu is ready to fire up
18:35 < markg85> mizmo, for the question. don't make it questions because that again will scare users away. That one question i made up will probably do fine for fp.o and get.fp.o
18:35 < ricky> Oh, one more thing - how is this meeting time for everybody?
18:35  * mchua --> train - logs plz!
18:35 < hiemanshu> Midnight here, fine with me
18:35 < mchua> this time is fine
18:35 < ricky> Only a couple of people filled out mchua's whenisgood thing, so this time was pretty much based on 4 peoples' times.
18:35 < nb> is pretty good for me, i don't normally work till about 30m inst from now
18:35 < nb> altough sometimes i would have to work
18:35 < onekopaka> ricky: good for the summer, but once school starts again it'll be a pain
18:35 < markg85> ricky, this time is fine for me
18:35 < ricky> onekopaka: Heh, I'm in the same situation, actually
18:36 < nb> don't really include me in your planning, my schedule changes every week
18:36 < ricky> OK, for those reading on the mailing list: if you didn't fill in your time, please do so
18:36 < ricky> I think mchua's whenisgood thing is closed now, so we'll figure out some way to get times.
18:36 < ricky> nb: Heh, no worries
18:36 -!- ricky changed the topic of #fedora-websites to: Websites Meeting - Meeting End
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