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Re: [K12OSN] a prospective client - k12ltsp and logo



Interestingly, I love OO programming.  I just think you need to know what
you are doing and why before diving in.

Jon

On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Julius Szelagiewicz wrote:

> Jon,
> 	you and me, buddy are showing our age ;-). the young 'uns. they
> find objectionable any programming that is not oo. I have yet to see a
> decent business system written in object oriented approach, where the
> shoe-horn wasn't used to make the darned thing work for a business. The
> thing is, that business tasks are generally linear and require correct
> sequencing. For instance, looking up price before the account is known is
> plain wrong and trying to check the inventory without the account may
> loose you best customers. You may have objects dealing with every
> granular task, but you have to string them into valid sequences to achieve
> a good result. This may seem obvious to you, but I have not interviewed
> even one young programmer well versed in any oop that actually understood
> it. Sometimes I think that people that get oo "religion" forget that life
> itself is linear and despite best efforts of Java developers, all attempts
> to reverse time have failed. julius
>
> On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Jonathan Bartlett wrote:
>
> > > 	The real reson why kids, or grownups, should not start with
> > > assembler is not that you can't write good code in it, but that you have
> > > to be pretty darn good programmer with understanding of hardware to be
> > > able to do this.
> >
> > I've actually found that it is writing in assembler that enables you to
> > have an understanding of the hardware.  It is _very_ hard for people to go
> > from programming in the abstract to learning the nuts and bolts of how
> > computer memory operates.  However the other direction is not so hard.  If
> > you have no basis for programming at all, I think it's much better to
> > start with learning how the computer itself operates, then working up to
> > how good programmers put this into practice.  That's the approach I'm
> > working on in my book that I'm writing (well, it's kind of stagnating
> > right now) -
> >
> > http://www.eskimo.com/~johnnyb/computers/ProgrammingGroundUp/ProgrammingGroundUp.pdf
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > > 	Basic can be an excellent tool to teach, but the expectations are
> > > so much higher now then they were in the dark ages when the computer
> > > memory was measured in KB, not GB that simple languages can be tought only
> > > to adults. Object oriented programming has been around in many forms for
> > > decades, but only in the last 5 years the computing power on the desktop
> > > became good enough to actually teach kids. This is great. Make sure you
> > > teach them problem solving as well, otherwise I'll keep interviewing
> > > "programmers" that can't figure out the solution to even simplest business
> > > problems. julius
> > >
> > > On Sun, 10 Nov 2002, Steve Wright wrote:
> > >
> > > > Steve Langasek wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >On Sat, Nov 09, 2002 at 08:55:24AM -0800, Jonathan Bartlett wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>Honestly, why not start them in assembler?  Kids will usually learn
> > > > >>anything, it's us who have to start off slowly.
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >Because most people I know who started out in assembly are terrible
> > > > >programmers... :)  Better to teach them basic concepts in programming
> > > > >first, so they have a chance to accomplish something in a higher-level
> > > > >language and can therefore recognize why most things are horrible to code
> > > > >in assembly...
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Exactly.  Programming these days is more about concepts than raw coding.
> > > >
> > > > Kids need to understand about objects and message-passing.  Logo is a
> > > > good introduction to procedures, as it is abundantly clear that little
> > > > can be done without using procedures, and it basically forces the
> > > > programmer to break down their code into the smallest workable components.
> > > >
> > > > Then, stepping up to Java 'formalizes' this process with the
> > > > introduction of classes and clearer (than Logo) formal descriptions of
> > > > what goes where.
> > > >
> > > > This is in great contrast to the old days of 'BASIC' where you ended up
> > > > with a single monlithic code that was incredibly complex and impossible
> > > > to re-use.  These days, there is no place in the professional
> > > > programming world for this type of coding style and teaching it to kids
> > > > does more to paralyse than it does to enable. (I spend hours warping my
> > > > mind around new concepts, after the poisoning it got from basic +
> > > > assembler.  8-)
>
>
>
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