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Re: [K12OSN] ATTN: Redhat Developers (OT)

Gentoo *is* great, the software compiles specifically for the machine you
are installing it on--on the fly.  BUT, you'd better have a fast connection
and decent hardware (or you will wait for the compiles FOREVER).

For those that want to USE their box today though, you may not want to go
that route.  You're probably not going to install Debian or Slackware (as
rock solid as they are), so where do you turn?  Mandrake, RedHat (and
Knoppix if you don't mind a bit of tweaking once you get it on your HDD). 
Yopper is very nice.  But this is OT.  I'm don't want to get into distro
wars but gee guys, back when I started with GNU/Linux I compiled everything
from scratch (without the beauty of Gentoo) so IMO it's like comparing
broadband to my formerly well-used 56K modem--tracking down RPMS, vs,
apt-get/urpmi.  Wazza problem?

Linux has gone from geeks only to user-friendly in almost no time.  If you
hate apt-get command line, use Synaptic.  Again, wazza problem?  I must be
missing something here or maybe (looking at where we've been) I'm just
happy with the rapid *progression* of the state of RPM Management tools...

It's all good.  You hate RPMs, then there's always DEBs, Slack, or rolling
your own...  Choice is a wonderful thing...

James Jensen

--- Quentin Hartman <qhartman lane k12 or us> wrote:
>          This is exactly why I have abandoned Redhat on all linux
> machines 
> I control but my LTSP machine. My search for another distro started when
> I 
> got my iBook and decided I wanted to run Linux on it. I also decided at 
> that point that if I could run the same distro on my iBook as I ran on my
> desktop, it would be awfully nice. So the search began. I tried every
> linux 
> distro I could find that claimed even marginal support for both ppc and 
> i386 architecture. After many installs, I ended up returning to one of
> the 
> first ones I tried, Gentoo.
>          For those of you who don't know, Gentoo is a source-based 
> meta-distribution, where every package that is installed is also compiled
> on your system. See www.gentoo.org for more info. The biggest draw for 
> Gentoo is their package system, Portage. It has to be one of, if not
> _the_, 
> most elegant and usable package management system I have ever used. An 
> Order of magnitude more powerful than RPM, less arcane than APT; it is, 
> IMHO, the closest thing the community currently has to a perfect package 
> manager. Which is not to say that it _is_ perfect, it still has many 
> weaknesses, but that is not the point of this post...
>          I am currently working on a big server upgrade. I am replacing /
> rebuilding a handful of servers, and adding a couple new ones to add new 
> functionality. All told, I am installing or building 9 servers. I started
> this with the intention of moving everything to RH 9. I made this choice 
> because RH is the distro I really cut my teeth on and was therefor the
> one 
> I was most familiar with and also because of RH's good support. Well,
> part 
> way through setting up my third server, I got caught in dependency hell
> yet 
> again. Now you should know two things. First, IMHO, exactly what I was 
> trying to install is beside the point; suffice it to say that it was a
> very 
> prominent (although complex) security monitoring program. I feel that it
> is 
> beside the point because I have been caught in RPM dependency hell more 
> times than I can count for virtually every size and type of application
> out 
> there. This was simply the "straw that broke the camel's back". Second, a
> year ago, I would have just fought through it like I had in the past. I 
> would have just accepted it as part and parcel of the Linux experience.
> An 
> annoying side effect to using the software I like and believe in. This 
> time, after spending 45 minutes fighting nested dependencies, I said
> "fsck 
> it" and started installing Gentoo.
>          I am now about halfway done migrating all of my machines to 
> Gentoo. It's taking a long time, since every package I install has to be 
> compiled at least once. I think that is acceptable. While I "waste time" 
> waiting for something to compile, someone else is "wasting time" fighting
> dependencies. The difference is I can work on something else while
> software 
> is compiling, the dependency fighter cannot.
>          This is turning more of a "Gentoo is great" rant than I had
> wanted 
> it to, so I'm going to reign myself in now. That was not my intent in 
> posting this. I just wanted to echo the sentiment that package
> management, 
> especially in RPM -based systems, needs some very serious attention. I
> know 
> there are tools that make it easier, but in my experience, they have
> proven 
> buggy and unfinished. And besides, the "official" tools really should be 
> the best, should they not? Especially in the world of OSS where there are
> no legal constraints to keep the best code and features from being 
> integrated into the "official" tools. Anyway, I guess the bottom line is 
> that Redhat has lost in me a long-time user, customer, and advocate to 
> another distro simply because of their infuriating package system. There 
> HAS to be a better way, and maybe I will give them a try if they figure 
> something out, but it may be too late.
> -Quentin-
> At 05:15 PM 6/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >First of all, let me say I am still a Redhat fan and Redhat remains my
> >Distro of choice. However, there has to be something done about the way
> >Redhat handles packages. Someone on another list summed it up best when
> he
> >said:
> >
> >Most other distros have a package system that's aware of what's needed
> for
> >packages, is aware of where to get the dependencies, and is willing to
> get
> >them and install them for you automatically. For what it's worth, this
> >very problem is why I quit using RedHat.
> >
> >I can't help but agree with that point. The number one reason people
> stop
> >using Redhat (or never start in the first place) is because of the
> package
> >management. I could go on and on but you get the idea of this message. I
> >think I am speaking for the entire community when I ask the developers:
> >Are there any plans for revamping the package management in Redhat? Must
> >we continue to strip out up2date and the such in order to replace it
> with
> >apt-get or another package? How much longer will "RPM hell" continue to
> be
> >the blotch that runs so many away from the Redhat Linux Distribution?
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Caleb Wagnon MCP A+
> >Network Administrator
> >Fordyce Public Schools
> >Fordyce, Arkansas 71742
> >(870) 352-2968
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------
> >Fordyce Public Schools Redbugmail System.
> >    "Fordyce----Home of the Redbugs!!"
> >http://redbugs.dsc.k12.ar.us/
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
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