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Re: [K12OSN] ATTN: Redhat Developers (OT)



Quentin,
	did you contact RH? Not that they would fix all the problems right
away, but at least they could get an earfull. Eric has done a tremendous
job in making RH distro usable and dare i say, friendly. julius

On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, Quentin Hartman wrote:

>          This is exactly why I have abandoned Redhat on all linux machines
> I control but my LTSP machine. My search for another distro started when I
> got my iBook and decided I wanted to run Linux on it. I also decided at
> that point that if I could run the same distro on my iBook as I ran on my
> desktop, it would be awfully nice. So the search began. I tried every linux
> distro I could find that claimed even marginal support for both ppc and
> i386 architecture. After many installs, I ended up returning to one of the
> first ones I tried, Gentoo.
>          For those of you who don't know, Gentoo is a source-based
> meta-distribution, where every package that is installed is also compiled
> on your system. See www.gentoo.org for more info. The biggest draw for
> Gentoo is their package system, Portage. It has to be one of, if not _the_,
> most elegant and usable package management system I have ever used. An
> Order of magnitude more powerful than RPM, less arcane than APT; it is,
> IMHO, the closest thing the community currently has to a perfect package
> manager. Which is not to say that it _is_ perfect, it still has many
> weaknesses, but that is not the point of this post...
>          I am currently working on a big server upgrade. I am replacing /
> rebuilding a handful of servers, and adding a couple new ones to add new
> functionality. All told, I am installing or building 9 servers. I started
> this with the intention of moving everything to RH 9. I made this choice
> because RH is the distro I really cut my teeth on and was therefor the one
> I was most familiar with and also because of RH's good support. Well, part
> way through setting up my third server, I got caught in dependency hell yet
> again. Now you should know two things. First, IMHO, exactly what I was
> trying to install is beside the point; suffice it to say that it was a very
> prominent (although complex) security monitoring program. I feel that it is
> beside the point because I have been caught in RPM dependency hell more
> times than I can count for virtually every size and type of application out
> there. This was simply the "straw that broke the camel's back". Second, a
> year ago, I would have just fought through it like I had in the past. I
> would have just accepted it as part and parcel of the Linux experience. An
> annoying side effect to using the software I like and believe in. This
> time, after spending 45 minutes fighting nested dependencies, I said "fsck
> it" and started installing Gentoo.
>          I am now about halfway done migrating all of my machines to
> Gentoo. It's taking a long time, since every package I install has to be
> compiled at least once. I think that is acceptable. While I "waste time"
> waiting for something to compile, someone else is "wasting time" fighting
> dependencies. The difference is I can work on something else while software
> is compiling, the dependency fighter cannot.
>          This is turning more of a "Gentoo is great" rant than I had wanted
> it to, so I'm going to reign myself in now. That was not my intent in
> posting this. I just wanted to echo the sentiment that package management,
> especially in RPM -based systems, needs some very serious attention. I know
> there are tools that make it easier, but in my experience, they have proven
> buggy and unfinished. And besides, the "official" tools really should be
> the best, should they not? Especially in the world of OSS where there are
> no legal constraints to keep the best code and features from being
> integrated into the "official" tools. Anyway, I guess the bottom line is
> that Redhat has lost in me a long-time user, customer, and advocate to
> another distro simply because of their infuriating package system. There
> HAS to be a better way, and maybe I will give them a try if they figure
> something out, but it may be too late.
>
> -Quentin-
>
> At 05:15 PM 6/5/2003 -0500, you wrote:
> >First of all, let me say I am still a Redhat fan and Redhat remains my
> >Distro of choice. However, there has to be something done about the way
> >Redhat handles packages. Someone on another list summed it up best when he
> >said:
> >
> >Most other distros have a package system that's aware of what's needed for
> >packages, is aware of where to get the dependencies, and is willing to get
> >them and install them for you automatically. For what it's worth, this
> >very problem is why I quit using RedHat.
> >
> >I can't help but agree with that point. The number one reason people stop
> >using Redhat (or never start in the first place) is because of the package
> >management. I could go on and on but you get the idea of this message. I
> >think I am speaking for the entire community when I ask the developers:
> >Are there any plans for revamping the package management in Redhat? Must
> >we continue to strip out up2date and the such in order to replace it with
> >apt-get or another package? How much longer will "RPM hell" continue to be
> >the blotch that runs so many away from the Redhat Linux Distribution?
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Caleb Wagnon MCP A+
> >Network Administrator
> >Fordyce Public Schools
> >Fordyce, Arkansas 71742
> >(870) 352-2968
> >
> >
> >-----------------------------------------
> >Fordyce Public Schools Redbugmail System.
> >    "Fordyce----Home of the Redbugs!!"
> >http://redbugs.dsc.k12.ar.us/
> >
> >
> >
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