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Subject: Re: Red Hat 9



Message: 13
Subject: Re: Red Hat 9
From: Joe Klemmer <klemmerj webtrek com>
To: psyche-list redhat com
Date: 25 Mar 2003 22:17:54 -0500
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 18:29, Gerald Henriksen wrote:

> While I agree some of the decisions Red Hat has made have been
> necessary and even good (even if Red Hat has screwed up the
> implementation and public relations aspects of at least some of them)
> they are also apparently ignoring a lot of their existing and (at
> least until now) loyal customers.

        This is crap.
 
> I certainly can't recall messages on any of the Red Hat mailing lists
> or any survey asking for Red Hat to price their Linux product at the
> same price levels Microsoft charges, yet that is exactly what Red Hat
> has done (and in at least 1 case when you extend the price over a 3 or
> 4 year lifetime of a product Red Hat is actually more expensive than
> Microsoft).

        More crap.
 
> The base Red Hat product line (8.0, 9, whatever next) is no longer
> suitable for business or the average home user.  You cannot expect a
> company or joe user to upgrade their operating system every year
> (which is now necessary given the 12 month limit on bug/security
> fixes).

        Even more crap.
 
> To get a reasonable period of security fixes you have to move up to
> the enterprise line of products, which starts at a minimum of twice
> the price and has more restrictive licensing terms.

        Ditto.
 
> So your average person at home now has a choice of Windows XP at $300
> or Red Hat Enterprise Workstation at $300 ($60 a year after the first
> year for access to security fixes).  Guess what, XP comes with full
> multimedia capabilities including MP3 and DVD, as well as a full range
> of software available for purchase including games, tax software, etc.
> Which would you choose?  And by the way, so far at least Microsoft
> still offers free security fixes in the base price.

        This is a very long message that is the epitome of FUD.  Let's leave
this $#|t out of the redhat lists.

--
Farewell neighbor.  Thank you for giving us a safe place for so many
years.
                Fred Rodgers - 1928-2003
 

Ok I agree, this list is for productive help for each other and enough of the whining crap. If you want to whine go to windoze. I for one am tired of reading a bunch of garbage.

Just a sysadmin's thoughts,,,,,,,,,,

Marcie
 

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Best way to update to RH9 from 8.0 ? (Raul Acevedo)
   2. Re: Red Hat 9 (Eric Burke)
   3. Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9 (Gerald Henriksen)
   4. Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9 (Jesse Keating)
   5. Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9 (Justin Zygmont)
   6. Re: Best way to update to RH9 from 8.0 ? (Justin Zygmont)
   7. Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9 (Michael Smith)
   8. Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9 (Gerald Henriksen)
   9. Re: Crack for MD5 Passwords? (Justin Zygmont)
  10. Re: Red Hat 9 (Ed Wilts)
  11. Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9 (Ed Wilts)
  12. quotas on nfs mounted filesystems. (Aaron Konstam)
  13. Re: Red Hat 9 (Joe Klemmer)
  14. Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9 (Joe Klemmer)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: Raul Acevedo <raul cantara com>
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 15:44:18 -0800
To: psyche-list redhat com
Subject: Re: Best way to update to RH9 from 8.0 ?
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

Mike Vanecek wrote:

 > Of course, that does not really help all the applications one has
 > installed that are in /var or /usr (such as chkrootkit, spamassassin,
 > wormscan, www apps, and so on). Might as well start from scratch.

Yep, it pretty much is starting from scratch.  For major releases I
don't mind; it gets me to learn more about what's new and improved about
the release, and makes sure my system stays pretty clean.

I'm not sure I recommend this for hundreds of systems, but for the three
machines I administer for home and work use, it's fine.

Raul

--__--__--

Message: 2
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 15:57:11 -0800
From: "Eric Burke" <eburke burkecentral net>
To: psyche-list redhat com
Subject: Re: Red Hat 9
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

Hi,

> I certainly can't recall messages on any of the Red Hat mailing lists
> or any survey asking for Red Hat to price their Linux product at the
> same price levels Microsoft charges, yet that is exactly what Red Hat
> has done (and in at least 1 case when you extend the price over a 3 or
> 4 year lifetime of a product Red Hat is actually more expensive than
> Microsoft).

The base product is $39.95...... much lower than MS XP at $300.

>
> The base Red Hat product line (8.0, 9, whatever next) is no longer
> suitable for business or the average home user.  You cannot expect a
> company or joe user to upgrade their operating system every year
> (which is now necessary given the 12 month limit on bug/security
> fixes).

It is just as suitable for business and the home user. No company
upgrades every year, where most home users that actually do anything
besides IRC and such do. Most corporate systems are still actually
running Windows NT or Windows 2000, with no plan to move to XP.

>
> To get a reasonable period of security fixes you have to move up to
> the enterprise line of products, which starts at a minimum of twice
> the price and has more restrictive licensing terms.

The enterprise products are still cheaper than Microsofts, as well as
the support.

>
> So your average person at home now has a choice of Windows XP at $300
> or Red Hat Enterprise Workstation at $300 ($60 a year after the first
> year for access to security fixes).  Guess what, XP comes with full
> multimedia capabilities including MP3 and DVD, as well as a full range
> of software available for purchase including games, tax software, etc.
> Which would you choose?  And by the way, so far at least Microsoft
> still offers free security fixes in the base price.

The average home user still has the choice, that is correct. If
multimedia is the big concern to you, then choose what is good for you.
I prefer functionality. I prefer the .ogg format for my music. Games is
the issue, but there are more and more of those made with native linux
code, for example, Unreal Tournament 2003, Return to Castle Wolfenstien,
and soon coming out Doom 3. Those are cutting edge games.

As for security fixes..well...we can always go back to the old way if
you do not want to upgrade by following the software you need the most
and applying errata as it comes out. More time consuming, sure, but all
the security fixes will still be there.

Of course this is all just my 2 cents which does not amount to much...

Regards,

Eric Burke

>
>
>
>
> --
> Psyche-list mailing list
> Psyche-list redhat com
> https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/psyche-list
>
>

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: Gerald Henriksen <ghenriks rogers com>
To: psyche-list redhat com
Subject: Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:22:31 -0500
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 15:40:11 -0800, you wrote:

>Gerald Henriksen wrote:
>
> > So your average person at home now has a choice of Windows XP at $300
> > or Red Hat Enterprise Workstation at $300 ($60 a year after the first
> > year for access to security fixes).  Guess what, XP comes with full
> > multimedia capabilities including MP3 and DVD, as well as a full
> > range of software available for purchase including games, tax
> > software, etc.  Which would you choose?  And by the way, so far at
> > least Microsoft still offers free security fixes in the base price.
>
>Huh?
>
>Why does the average person need the Enterprise Workstation???

Starting with Red Hat 8.0 errata are only provided for 12 months after
release.  The only products with errata periods longer than 12 months
are the products in the Enterprise line.

So you have a choice, upgrade to a new version of Linux yearly or move
to the Enterprise line.

For most of us on these lists upgrading will be the likely option,
however your average home user currently using Windows will not want
to be forced into upgrading their OS yearly.

>I've been using Red Hat since 1995 and never, ever once paid for a
>security fix.  As far as I can tell, Red Hat will never charge for it
>either.

It just won't be provided after 12 months.

--__--__--

Message: 4
From: Jesse Keating <hosting j2solutions net>
Organization: j2Solutions
To: psyche-list redhat com
Subject: Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:33:03 -0800
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

On Tuesday 25 March 2003 16:22, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> It just won't be provided after 12 months.

Wrong.  popular releases will be supported for longer, releases such as 6.2 or
maybe even 7.3.  If you read the fine print, it's "at least 12 months" not
"at the most 12 months".  Seems to me that people are getting really worked
up over a whole lot of sillyness.

--
Jesse Keating RHCE MCSE
http://geek.j2solutions.net
Mondo DevTeam (http://www.microwerks.net/~hugo/)

Was I helpful?  Let others know:
 http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating

--__--__--

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:15:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Justin Zygmont <jzygmont solarflow dyndns org>
To: Jesse Keating <hosting j2solutions net>
Cc: psyche-list redhat com
Subject: Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

we'll see very soon, at the end of the month 6.2 and 7.0 will expire.  I'm
curious if there will be any package updates, but I somehow doubt there
will.

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, Jesse Keating wrote:

> On Tuesday 25 March 2003 16:22, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> > It just won't be provided after 12 months.
>
> Wrong.  popular releases will be supported for longer, releases such as 6.2 or
> maybe even 7.3.  If you read the fine print, it's "at least 12 months" not
> "at the most 12 months".  Seems to me that people are getting really worked
> up over a whole lot of sillyness.
>
>

--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:02:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Justin Zygmont <jzygmont solarflow dyndns org>
To: psyche-list redhat com
Subject: Re: Best way to update to RH9 from 8.0 ?
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

> Obviously no one outside of Red Hat can speak fron actual experience in
> updateing to 9. Having said that I can tell you that my experience upgrading
> from various versions to the latest and greatest version have for the most
> part been very successful. Based on my personal experience I have no problem
> doing upgrades.

I have.  Expect breakage.

--__--__--

Message: 7
Subject: Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9
From: Michael Smith <psyche custom87 net>
To: psyche-list redhat com
Organization:
Date: 25 Mar 2003 16:05:09 -0900
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

After 12 months, up2date goes away if you don't use enterprise.

THIS THREAD IS GOING OVERBOARD.
On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 15:33, Jesse Keating wrote:
> On Tuesday 25 March 2003 16:22, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> > It just won't be provided after 12 months.
>
> Wrong.  popular releases will be supported for longer, releases such as 6.2 or
> maybe even 7.3.  If you read the fine print, it's "at least 12 months" not
> "at the most 12 months".  Seems to me that people are getting really worked
> up over a whole lot of sillyness.
>
> --
> Jesse Keating RHCE MCSE
> http://geek.j2solutions.net
> Mondo DevTeam (http://www.microwerks.net/~hugo/)
>
> Was I helpful?  Let others know:
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=jkeating

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: Gerald Henriksen <ghenriks rogers com>
To: psyche-list redhat com
Subject: Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 19:46:28 -0500
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003 16:33:03 -0800, you wrote:

>On Tuesday 25 March 2003 16:22, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
>> It just won't be provided after 12 months.
>
>Wrong.  popular releases will be supported for longer, releases such as 6.2 or
>maybe even 7.3.  If you read the fine print, it's "at least 12 months" not
>"at the most 12 months".  Seems to me that people are getting really worked
>up over a whole lot of sillyness.

I am aware of the "at least 12 months" clause, and note that 8.0
actually gets about 15 months (8.0 is listed as terminating the end of
this year).

All that in reality means is that the length of time will vary
depending on whether Red Hat meets their typical 6 month release cycle
and how different each release is.  In other words, if the next
release after 9 is basically similar to 9 then the effort to extend
9's errata period is minimal.  On the other hand if the next release
is a substantial change (as the hints are certainly indicating is the
plan, of course contingent on other factors in the OSS world) then the
errata for 9 will terminate shortly after 12 months.

Either way the wording ensures that you cannot plan to use any of the
base line of Red Hat Linux in any sort of non-experimental or personal
role because you cannot plan on multi-year support.

--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:08:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Justin Zygmont <jzygmont solarflow dyndns org>
To: psyche-list redhat com
Subject: Re: Crack for MD5 Passwords?
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

yes, it will do all types..

On Tue, 25 Mar 2003, Aaron Konstam wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 02:11:15PM -0500, John Kodis wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 24, 2003 at 04:26:44PM -0600, Ronald W. Heiby wrote:
> >
> > > Does anyone know where I can find a copy of Crack that runs on RH
> > > 8.0 and deals with MD5 passwords?
> >
> > Crack doesn't seem to be well maintained these days.  You might try a
> > program called "john the ripper", which handles md5 hashes and will
> > build successfully with minimal effort.
> >
> > --
> > John Kodis                                    Goddard Space Flight Center
> > kodis mail630 gsfc nasa gov                      Greenbelt, Maryland, USA
> > Phone: 301-286-7376                                     Fax: 301-286-1771
>

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:09:54 -0600
From: Ed Wilts <ewilts ewilts org>
To: psyche-list redhat com
Subject: Re: Red Hat 9
Organization: (ewilts)
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 06:29:04PM -0500, Gerald Henriksen wrote:
> So your average person at home now has a choice of Windows XP at $300
> or Red Hat Enterprise Workstation at $300 ($60 a year after the first
> year for access to security fixes).  Guess what, XP comes with full
> multimedia capabilities including MP3 and DVD, as well as a full range
> of software available for purchase including games, tax software, etc.
> Which would you choose?

And Red Hat Linux comes with a full office suite, a Photoshop clone, a
bunch of other utilities, web development tools, and a whole bunch more.
You don't need to pay extra for Microsoft Office, Photoshop, and other
imaging software, nor a project management suite.  Add them all up and
you'll see that Windows is a *lot* more expensive.

>And by the way, so far at least Microsoft
> still offers free security fixes in the base price.

As does Red Hat.  However, your pricing is suspect.  Windows XP Pro is
$299.  Red hat Enterprise is $179/year for the download edition and $299
per year for the standard edition.

In the first 90 days, Microsoft offers you absolutely no support.  Red
Hat offers telephone and web-based support.  If you need assistance
setting up a desktop, this could save you a bunch.  The standard edition
includes both phone and web support with service level guarantees and
extends this for the entire year.  Microsoft support costs $245 for
phone support *per incident*.

--
Ed Wilts, Mounds View, MN, USA
mailto:ewilts ewilts org
Member #1, Red Hat Community Ambassador Program

--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:12:19 -0600
From: Ed Wilts <ewilts ewilts org>
To: psyche-list redhat com
Subject: Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9
Organization: (ewilts)
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

On Tue, Mar 25, 2003 at 08:15:58PM -0500, Justin Zygmont wrote:
> we'll see very soon, at the end of the month 6.2 and 7.0 will expire.  I'm
> curious if there will be any package updates, but I somehow doubt there
> will.

6.1 support has been terminated for quite a while.  We simply grab the
6.2 srpm and recompile it for the 6.1 system.  Next month, I suspect
that I can take a 7.x srpm for a security update, do an rpm --rebuild,
and I'll be off to the races.

--
Ed Wilts, Mounds View, MN, USA
mailto:ewilts ewilts org
Member #1, Red Hat Community Ambassador Program

--__--__--

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2003 20:54:32 -0600
From: Aaron Konstam <akonstam Trinity Edu>
To: Psyche <psyche-list redhat com>
Subject: quotas on nfs mounted filesystems.
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

We have a series of machines that share the same nfs mounted user
directories. This nfs mounted filesystem has quotas enabled on the
server and one can indeed run quota on the server to find out your
quota. But on the clients the running is supposed to work through a
call to rpc.rquotad on the server. We can't make that work.

Does anyone know the trick.
--
-------------------------------------------
Aaron Konstam
Computer Science
Trinity University
715 Stadium Dr.
San Antonio, TX 78212-7200

telephone: (210)-999-7484
email:akonstam trinity edu

--__--__--

Message: 13
Subject: Re: Red Hat 9
From: Joe Klemmer <klemmerj webtrek com>
To: psyche-list redhat com
Date: 25 Mar 2003 22:17:54 -0500
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 18:29, Gerald Henriksen wrote:

> While I agree some of the decisions Red Hat has made have been
> necessary and even good (even if Red Hat has screwed up the
> implementation and public relations aspects of at least some of them)
> they are also apparently ignoring a lot of their existing and (at
> least until now) loyal customers.

        This is crap.

> I certainly can't recall messages on any of the Red Hat mailing lists
> or any survey asking for Red Hat to price their Linux product at the
> same price levels Microsoft charges, yet that is exactly what Red Hat
> has done (and in at least 1 case when you extend the price over a 3 or
> 4 year lifetime of a product Red Hat is actually more expensive than
> Microsoft).

        More crap.

> The base Red Hat product line (8.0, 9, whatever next) is no longer
> suitable for business or the average home user.  You cannot expect a
> company or joe user to upgrade their operating system every year
> (which is now necessary given the 12 month limit on bug/security
> fixes).

        Even more crap.

> To get a reasonable period of security fixes you have to move up to
> the enterprise line of products, which starts at a minimum of twice
> the price and has more restrictive licensing terms.

        Ditto.

> So your average person at home now has a choice of Windows XP at $300
> or Red Hat Enterprise Workstation at $300 ($60 a year after the first
> year for access to security fixes).  Guess what, XP comes with full
> multimedia capabilities including MP3 and DVD, as well as a full range
> of software available for purchase including games, tax software, etc.
> Which would you choose?  And by the way, so far at least Microsoft
> still offers free security fixes in the base price.

        This is a very long message that is the epitome of FUD.  Let's leave
this $#|t out of the redhat lists.

--
Farewell neighbor.  Thank you for giving us a safe place for so many
years.
                Fred Rodgers - 1928-2003

--__--__--

Message: 14
Subject: Re: [psyche] Re: Red Hat 9
From: Joe Klemmer <klemmerj webtrek com>
To: psyche-list redhat com
Date: 25 Mar 2003 22:20:50 -0500
Reply-To: psyche-list redhat com

On Tue, 2003-03-25 at 19:22, Gerald Henriksen wrote:

> Starting with Red Hat 8.0 errata are only provided for 12 months after
> release.  The only products with errata periods longer than 12 months
> are the products in the Enterprise line.

        With the average Joe User of Linux being used to upgrading every 3 or 4
months how does hading 3 or 4 times as much time for support a bad
thing?

--
Farewell neighbor.  Thank you for giving us a safe place for so many
years.
                Fred Rodgers - 1928-2003

--__--__--

--
Psyche-list mailing list
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https://listman.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/psyche-list

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