[Pulp-dev] PUP Process: "obvious consensus"

Thu Jun 15 20:42:12 UTC 2017

I _strongly_ disagree with the idea of a black or white +1 / -1 system, I
think it would be much more likely to encourage groupthink.  Not everyone
will be able to reach a clear, strong opinion about every topic,
particularly people less familiar or experienced with the subject area
under debate.  Those people are put in the position of either abstaining,
or "going with the flow", and the very act of deciding "yes, I am going to
vote for this" can suppress your reservations about something.

The consensus decision making document Brian linked seems like a good
model, although it seems to make a distinction between a reservation, a
comment, and a "vote against" which is poorly explained.   I'll also note
that under that model, +0/-0 are effectively "abstain with comment".  And
maybe that's fine, but to go back to my point earlier (which Michael did an
excellent job of expanding on), we should consider that a widespread
opinion of "(-0) I'm not voting no but I'm still concerned about XYZ" is
problematic.

On Thu, Jun 15, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Brian Bouterse <bbouters at redhat.com> wrote:

> I asked about some of these governance questions to a group of community
> managers from several open source projects that I meet with weekly. They
> said that if you don't have a BDFL (Pulp does not) the other very popular
> model is the lazy consensus model. I think lazy consensus is the spirit of
> pup1. I asked for some examples and they pointed me at the CentOS
> governance model [0][1].
>
> Also @daviddavis and I were talking and codifying the problem as what
> value should X be if X are the number of +1s required to pass a decision
> with zero -1 votes (vetos)? The CentOS governance model sets X = 0 by
> stating "There is no minimum +1 vote requirement". I'm also advocating for
> X=0 for the reasons I wrote in my earlier email. Practically speaking, I
> don't think an X=1, or X=2 will prevent many proposals that would have also
> passed with X=0.
>
> Regardless of the X value, we should continue the discussion so we can
> arrive at a decision on both pup1 and pup3. Thanks for continuing the convo.
>
> [0]: https://www.centos.org/about/governance/appendix-glossary/#c
> onsensus-decision-making
> [1]: https://www.centos.org/about/governance/voting/
>
> -Brian
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 11:46 AM, Ina Panova <ipanova at redhat.com> wrote:
>
>> And if we would remove all 'shades of grey' and go back just to +1 and -1
>> where people would need to make their mind up *clearly* which would lead
>> stronger arguments of doing or not doing this.
>>
>>
>>
>> --------
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ina Panova
>> Software Engineer| Pulp| Red Hat Inc.
>>
>> "Do not go where the path may lead,
>>  go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 5:30 PM, David Davis <daviddavis at redhat.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In this model of where only -1 votes stop the PUP from passing, wouldn’t
>>> it mean that there needn't be any consensus at all? In other words we could
>>> effectively strike the language about consensus from PUP-1. This model
>>> makes me worried that people other than those casting -1 won’t bother to
>>> vote or participate since only -1 votes matter.
>>>
>>> I personally like the idea of having at least 30% that are +1 or +0.
>>> This means that enough -0 votes can still block the vote, and also +0 votes
>>> goes towards helping the PUP pass. Thus +0 and -0 would both matter. I
>>> think this is a good compromise between the extremes of "broad buy-in" and
>>> "default to change."
>>>
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 10:36 AM, Brian Bouterse <bbouters at redhat.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We should (I thought we did) adopt a process that favors change and
>>>> does not have a "broad buy-in requirement". Any change that doesn't harm
>>>> the project should be allowed without broad buy-in. This empowers even a
>>>> single individual to enact change. This makes Pulp better because:
>>>>
>>>> * Everyone is empowered. A single individual can have a meaningful
>>>> impact.
>>>> * Anyone can stop an idea that will negatively affect the project or
>>>> community via veto.
>>>> * We avoid the tyranny of the majority [0] or supermajority.
>>>> * It avoids politics. If we start averaging, or counting votes
>>>> for/against in an offsetting way, there will be politics. Counting votes
>>>> for/against will create inequality because influential project members will
>>>> likely see their ideas adopted but others won't. Having a "default to
>>>> change and any core dev can veto" approach creates equality.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding how "obvious consensus" works with the "veto-or-it-passes"
>>>> model, if there are zero -1 votes cast, that means no one wanted to stop
>>>> the process. If no wants to stop it, and at least one is for it, then the
>>>> most sensible thing to do is to pass it. Since someone took time to write
>>>> the PUP there is obviously someone giving it a +1. If one person really
>>>> wants to go to place X for dinner (aka a +1), and there are no
>>>> counterproposals (aka a -1 with a suggestion) or strong preferences against
>>>> (aka -0 or +0) then the group will probably go to place X for dinner by way
>>>> of "obvious consensus".
>>>>
>>>> In summary, adopting a "default to accept or reject with even a single
>>>> veto" system creates an equal system. A system where, a single individual
>>>> can make a difference, and anyone can stop a bad idea from occurring. To
>>>> @mhrivnak's point about a change not meeting a broad range of needs, I
>>>> expect -1's to be cast in those cases, so this system is still very safe in
>>>> terms of protecting the projects needs and interests.
>>>>
>>>> [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority
>>>>
>>>> -Brian
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 7:53 PM, David Davis <daviddavis at redhat.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Not sure this is true. I actually abstained from voting on PUP-3
>>>>> because I was somewhere between a +0 and a -0.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 11:43 AM, Ina Panova <ipanova at redhat.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Having at least one  +1 is not impartial approach just because the
>>>>>> developer who , as you said, found the time for the research and writing
>>>>>> down the proposal obviously will vote as +1 :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ina Panova
>>>>>> Software Engineer| Pulp| Red Hat Inc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Do not go where the path may lead,
>>>>>>  go instead where there is no path and leave a trail."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 5:35 PM, Austin Macdonald <
>>>>>> amacdona at redhat.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This reminds me of the concept of a "Do-ocracy".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If developers take the time to research and write up a proposal,
>>>>>>> they have "done". It seems completely reasonable to default to the opinion
>>>>>>> of the people that cared enough to do the work. If it isn't the right
>>>>>>> decision, then someone must actively block it, simple as that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the rule should be "PUP passes if we have at least one +1
>>>>>>> and no -1s".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Pulp-dev mailing list
>>>>>>> Pulp-dev at redhat.com
>>>>>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/pulp-dev
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Pulp-dev mailing list
>>>>>> Pulp-dev at redhat.com
>>>>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/pulp-dev
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Pulp-dev mailing list
>>>>> Pulp-dev at redhat.com
>>>>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/pulp-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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