"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)

Linux for blind general discussion blinux-list at redhat.com
Sun Aug 14 04:34:24 UTC 2022

And where do these employers learn about jaws?
In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how  this works exactly. 
after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal 
Jaws users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an 
expensive program instead of a largely free one.

On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:

> Karen,
> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors will
> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't know
> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need to
> learn one of the two.
> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the employer
> will allow.
> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws scripters
> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in the
> business I can say is rubbish.
> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be chosen,
> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels is
> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational purchases,
> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best interest
> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
> expenditures do.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,  the
> rehab systems track record for facilitating  employment for their clients
> is quite poor.
> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients.  Making,
> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we are
> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system.  We will give you an
> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work, and
>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would advocate
>> that
>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific job.
>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did for
>> work related situations.
>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
>> purchase a JFL product.
>> Glenn
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux list
>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
>> command line,  the comments were quite informative.
>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they market
>> to the American rehab community.
>> how much market research has  the rehab community done to support the need
>> for choices?
>> How many rehab counselors support  training in Linux?
>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality speech
>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.  everyone
>> brings their needs to the table there.
>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you  need to prove there is
>> money for  them there, from their main source of income.
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why FS
>>> would
>>> not be able to do the same.
>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game changer,
>>> and
>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
>>> Glenn
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
>>> bought
>>> by another company.
>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools for
>>> Linux.
>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is  quite like clay. You can
>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and options
>>> for creativity.
>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical characteristics,
>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid  foundation as it
>>> were.  that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple  efforts
>>> at
>>> inclusion, they  created  with, and then created in-house adaptive tools
>>> for various  populations that were built into the system.
>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at least,
>>> the
>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
>>> former
>>> gw  micro or nvda to create something that can in theory  work.
>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
>>> Just my thoughts,
>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
>>>> JFL
>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring many
>>>> more
>>>> users into Linux.
>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than Orca.
>>>> Glenn
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net> writes:
>>>>    KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications, and
>>>>    KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
>>>>    KL> defines Linux usage for everyone.  That attitude is dangerous,
>>>>    KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
>>>>    KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual.  he has
>>>>    KL> to be expert, it is his job.
>>>> Hi Karen,
>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and qualifications.  I
>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and I
>>>> believe he’d be happy to be corrected about possible technical
>>>> inaccuracies in the interview.  It may be also a good opportunity to
>>>> find out what’s possibly missing in making anybody better informed.
>>>> As for “absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced”, what
>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard desktop
>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common blind user
>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process text
>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
>>>> And let’s be realistic.  We celebrate every single developer hired to
>>>> improve accessibility.  This tells something about the state of the
>>>> matters.  We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the kinds
>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments.  Lukas works at his
>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones and I
>>>> appreciate this opportunity.  Anybody else seeing a need to work on
>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I do.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Milan

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