"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
Linux for blind general discussion
blinux-list at redhat.com
Wed Aug 17 14:52:31 UTC 2022
Several years ago, I talked with Dave Bolnick who at that time was
Microsoft Accessibility Team lead and he told me the same thing about the
N.F.B.
Jude <jdashiel at panix dot com> .
On Wed, 17 Aug 2022, Butch Bussen wrote:
> It isn't just a rumor. I was heavily involved with gw micro at that time, and
> nfb's reasoning was it would stop development of screen readers. Gw was
> working with microsoft at that time and I got it directly from Doug.
> 73
> Butch
> WA0VJR
> Node 3148
> Wallace, ks.
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
>
> > That is hear-say, an old rumor that has been recycled countless times.
> > Glenn
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John G. Heim" <jheim at wisc.edu>
> > To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; "Butch Bussen"
> > <butchb at shellworld.net>; "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> > Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> > <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 11:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >
> >
> > Holy cow! Are you aware that the NFB once asked Microsoft to *NOT*
> > improve Narrator to the point where it would compete with Jaws? If you
> > think the NFB is incapable of forcing choices on people, you are very
> > sadly mistaken.
> >
> >
> >
> > On 8/16/22 09:36, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >> This sort of thing would never happen in Nebraska, or any state where the
> >> agency staff is of the NFB philosophy.
> >> Say what you want about the NFB, no organization is without its problems,
> >> but it is the core philosophy that formed the NFB that knows that society
> >> has low expectations of the Blind, and this is why the NFB believes in
> >> skills and high expectations.
> >> And with that, comes giving respect to the Blind, like the respect of
> >> choice.
> >> Yeah I know about the information of recent about NFB abuse, but this is
> >> organizational issues, unrelated to the philosophy. In fact, the fact
> >> that
> >> it has come up demonstrates that the NFB is no different than any other
> >> organization in interpersonal staff issues.
> >> And choice does not mean training center choices.
> >> Choice isn't always an option, just like if you took a vocational course
> >> in
> >> college, there are things you have to take, so to me, the lack of choice
> >> in
> >> this regard is different than computer software, where all the choices
> >> will
> >> reach the same end result.
> >> In states where the NFB philosophy is embraced, if a client said I want to
> >> use a Mac, or I want Window Eyes, then that is what they would get, no
> >> questions asked.
> >> They would not have to fight to get it.
> >> I simply cannot imagine a counselor saying that someone has to use the
> >> software that the counselor wants them to have.
> >> When I hear that stuff, I almost cannot believe it, but I know Butch well
> >> enough to know he wouldn't make that up.
> >>
> >> Glenn
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Butch Bussen" <butchb at shellworld.net>
> >> To: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >> Cc: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>; <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan
> >> Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>; <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 8:18 AM
> >> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>
> >>
> >> You are right. In Nevada, freedom pushed jaws to the rehab people and
> >> took them out for steak diners and so forth. I fought like hell to get
> >> them to buy window-eyes.
> >> 73
> >> Butch
> >> WA0VJR
> >> Node 3148
> >> Wallace, ks.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> >>
> >>> And where do these employers learn about jaws?
> >>> In fact, provide if you do not mind an example of how this works
> >>> exactly.
> >>> after all, unless I am incorrect, these employers are not personal Jaws
> >>> users, meaning someone they trust continues to sell them on an expensive
> >>> program instead of a largely free one.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Karen,
> >>>> Most employers don't want NVDA, and will only allow Jaws.
> >>>> In Nebraska, if an employer said put on whatever works, the counselors
> >>>> will
> >>>> use NVDA, because of the cost of Jaws.
> >>>> If some of the clients in a call center already use Jaws, but don't
> >>>> know
> >>>> NVDA, the counselor will use Jaws, because the other clients will need
> >>>> to
> >>>> learn one of the two.
> >>>> So it's all choice, but in the workplace, it depends on what the
> >>>> employer
> >>>> will allow.
> >>>> Also, sometimes scripts need to be made, and there are more Jaws
> >>>> scripters
> >>>> available than there are NVDA add-on writers.
> >>>> So this perception that Jaws is forced by rehab, from my 31 years in
> >>>> the
> >>>> business I can say is rubbish.
> >>>> Now, if a counselor did not know how to use NVDA, and either may be
> >>>> chosen,
> >>>> the rehab counselor is able to select the one that the counselor feels
> >>>> is
> >>>> best for the student and for the counselor's teaching.
> >>>> When it comes to part B moneys, which is used for non-vocational
> >>>> purchases,
> >>>> where a lot of Jaws purchases come from, it is in the agency's best
> >>>> interest
> >>>> to spend as little as possible, because that doesn't come back like VR
> >>>> expenditures do.
> >>>> Glenn
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 6:15 PM
> >>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The challenge with that example is that, as one often gets reminded,
> >>>> the
> >>>> rehab systems track record for facilitating employment for their
> >>>> clients
> >>>> is quite poor.
> >>>> With a high percentage of unemployment among our clients. Making,
> >>>> speaking personally, your buying Jaws for personal use not really
> >>>> reflecting how the system would respond to an alternative request.
> >>>> Now if someone from organized rehab said, okay freedom scientific, we
> >>>> are
> >>>> creating an employment program where our clients will train in Linux,
> >>>> needing a solid screen reader solution for the system. We will give
> >>>> you
> >>>> an
> >>>> exclusive development contract for s millions to create the tool.
> >>>> Fs would likely say where do we sign?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> True enough, but largely, rehab people typically use Windows at work,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> probably at home, but they need to cater to the needs of the client.
> >>>>> If a client used Linux, I doubt that any rehab counselor would
> >>>>> advocate
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> the client switch to Windows, unless that was needed for a specific
> >>>>> job.
> >>>>> In Nebraska, we purchased Jaws much more for personal use than we did
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> work related situations.
> >>>>> So if FS made a JFL, and people were using Linux, rehab would indeed
> >>>>> purchase a JFL product.
> >>>>> Glenn
> >>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 3:01 PM
> >>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> there was an interesting discussion a month or so back on the blinux
> >>>>> list
> >>>>> about how long it took completing tasks in the gui as apposed to say
> >>>>> command line, the comments were quite informative.
> >>>>> Still, fs has never marketed largely to the end user. Instead they
> >>>>> market
> >>>>> to the American rehab community.
> >>>>> how much market research has the rehab community done to support the
> >>>>> need
> >>>>> for choices?
> >>>>> How many rehab counselors support training in Linux?
> >>>>> one comment made by the subject of this thread about poor quality
> >>>>> speech
> >>>>> is a fine one...out of the box Linux has few speech choices.
> >>>>> everyone
> >>>>> brings their needs to the table there.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> if you want to get fs to care about Linux, you need to prove there
> >>>>> is
> >>>>> money for them there, from their main source of income.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Well since Orca seems to work on so many distros, I don't know why
> >>>>>> FS
> >>>>>> would
> >>>>>> not be able to do the same.
> >>>>>> If Jaws users could switch into Linux, it would be a real game
> >>>>>> changer,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>> I think with lots more Blind Linux users, we would start seeing
> >>>>>> accessibility in Linux not being a second thought.
> >>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>> From: "Karen Lewellen" <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>> To: "K0LNY_Glenn" <glenn at ervin.email>
> >>>>>> Cc: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>; "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>;
> >>>>>> <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:47 PM
> >>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Well technically freedom scientific does not exist any longer, being
> >>>>>> bought
> >>>>>> by another company.
> >>>>>> Still, I can respect why they, or nvda have not created their tools
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> Linux.
> >>>>>> That is because as I understand it, Linux is quite like clay. You
> >>>>>> can
> >>>>>> mold a distribution into almost anything. there are various
> >>>>>> personifications of the system, all sorts of ways and changes and
> >>>>>> options
> >>>>>> for creativity.
> >>>>>> however adaptive tools are often extensions of physical
> >>>>>> characteristics,
> >>>>>> hands, eyes, ears, brains, combinations of these.
> >>>>>> To build solid assistive tools one must have a solid foundation as
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>> were. that is part of why there have needed to be so few Apple
> >>>>>> efforts
> >>>>>> at
> >>>>>> inclusion, they created with, and then created in-house adaptive
> >>>>>> tools
> >>>>>> for various populations that were built into the system.
> >>>>>> Although Microsoft did not bother until much later, in theory at
> >>>>>> least,
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> consistency of windows is what makes it possible for freedom or the
> >>>>>> former
> >>>>>> gw micro or nvda to create something that can in theory work.
> >>>>>> Floor for the furniture is somewhat solid.
> >>>>>> Just my thoughts,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022, K0LNY_Glenn wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would like to see Freedom Scientific make a Jaws For Linux.
> >>>>>>> JFL
> >>>>>>> I'd certainly pay the yearly rental fee for it, and it would bring
> >>>>>>> many
> >>>>>>> more
> >>>>>>> users into Linux.
> >>>>>>> FS could, with its resources, possibly make it more robust than
> >>>>>>> Orca.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Glenn
> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>>>>> From: "Milan Zamazal" <pdm at zamazal.org>
> >>>>>>> To: <speakup at linux-speakup.org>
> >>>>>>> Cc: <Blinux-list at redhat.com>
> >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 12:08 PM
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: "Accessibility in Fedora Workstation" (fwd)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "KL" == Karen Lewellen <klewellen at shellworld.net>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> writes:
> >>>>>>> KL> What bothers me most are his lack of actual qualifications,
> >>>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> KL> absolute dismissal of what he has not experienced..as if he
> >>>>>>> KL> defines Linux usage for everyone. That attitude is dangerous,
> >>>>>>> KL> because he is educating those outside of the accessibility
> >>>>>>> KL> experiences, who will believe his ignorance is factual. he
> >>>>>>> has
> >>>>>>> KL> to be expert, it is his job.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Karen,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I know Lukas personally and I admire his skills and
> >>>>>>> qualifications.
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> also know first hand that he is open to constructive feedback and
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> believe he??Td be happy to be corrected about possible technical
> >>>>>>> inaccuracies in the interview. It may be also a good opportunity
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> find out what??Ts possibly missing in making anybody better
> >>>>>>> informed.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> As for ??oabsolute dismissal of what he has not experienced???,
> >>>>>>> what
> >>>>>>> reasonable free software alternatives to a less or more standard
> >>>>>>> desktop
> >>>>>>> with Orca and a software synthesizer can you see for a common
> >>>>>>> blind
> >>>>>>> user
> >>>>>>> who needs to use a fully working web browser, to read and process
> >>>>>>> text
> >>>>>>> documents, to be compatible with other computer users, etc.?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And let??Ts be realistic. We celebrate every single developer
> >>>>>>> hired
> >>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>> improve accessibility. This tells something about the state of
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> matters. We cannot expect that a single person will fix all the
> >>>>>>> kinds
> >>>>>>> of accessibility problems in all the environments. Lukas works at
> >>>>>>> his
> >>>>>>> job focusing on certain areas currently seen there as urgent ones
> >>>>>>> and I
> >>>>>>> appreciate this opportunity. Anybody else seeing a need to work
> >>>>>>> on
> >>>>>>> other areas is welcome to contribute to whatever sees fit, as I
> >>>>>>> do.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>> Milan
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
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