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[Ambassadors] 2009-03-05 FAMSCO Meeting Summary

Hello and welcome to this seventh FAMSCO weekly meeting summary.

The latest meeting was hold on March 05th 2009 on #fedora-meeting

Francesco Fugolini
Max Spevack
Joerg Simon
David Nalley
Rodrigo Padula

Regreted attendees:
Susmit Shannigrahi

Francesco starts by announcing the meeting agenda :
1. Ambassadors Policies Coordination
2. Current tasks review
3. Budget

1. Ambassadors Policies Coordination
Francesco reminded everyone the aim of FAmSCo

"We are policy makers, we were elected to organize Ambassadors 
Project, and one of the main way is through policies".  

The conversation focused on the differences between "regional" 
decisions, and "global" decisions.

Everyone agreed that the way we handle these two decisions are 

For regional decisions -- what events to attend, how much swag to 
purchase, etc. -- the authority is left to the regional leaders.

For global decisions -- policy that impacts all Ambassadors -- the 
authority is left to FAmSCo.

We then discussed the specific issue of the Country List page, and the 
best way to clean that page up, and maintain it in the future.


While this sort of decision is a "global" one that should be left to 
FAmSCo, we were not clear about making that known last week, and that 
led to a confusing thread that ended up on Fedora Ambassadors list.

"Please REPLY to this mail (or you will be *removed* from the 
Ambassadors Country list.)"  

To prevent misunderstandings like this in the future, we decided:

-- FAmSCo has to be more firm about the decisions it makes in his 

-- FAmSCo is not going to micromanage the Ambassadors regions, and 
leaves this to Regional Leaders.

-- The CountryList page is to be made obsolete, then deleted, and 
replaced by an automatically created wiki page, based on Fedora 
Account System information. This task is to be handled by Joerg Simon.

-- Contact wiki pages, on the responsibility of Regional Leaders, are 
to be created for each region with primary contacts information in 
them. These will be used as entry points for people who need to 
contact Ambassadors. This task is to be handled by Max Spevack.  

By this time, we were over an hour, and the rest of the agenda was 

Francesco adjourned the meeting.

You can read the attached meeting log for detailed information.  
Title: 2009-03-05-famsco.log


fugolini10 minutes, then FAmSCo meeting18:49
RodrigoPadulaHello Guys!18:58
ke4qqqhi RodrigoPadula18:58
RodrigoPadulafamsco meeting now ?18:58
fugoliniyes, one minute18:59
fugoliniOk, who is here?19:00
* ke4qqq is19:00
* MrTom is19:00
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fugoliniSo, roll call please:19:02
fugoliniFrancesco Ugolini19:02
MrTomThomas Canniot19:02
ke4qqqDavid Nalley19:02
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spevackMax Spevack19:03
spevackke4qqq: sorry you had to miss the trip to CUE19:03
RodrigoPadulaRodrigo Padula19:03
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fugoliniGreat! Now, today agenda:19:04
* RodrigoPadula low power :(19:04
fugolini1. Ambassadors Policies Coordination19:04
fugolini2. Current tasks review19:04
fugolini3. Budget19:04
ke4qqqspevack: me too!19:04
fugoliniRodrigoPadula: I'll be brief19:04
fugolini1. Ambassadors Policies Coordination19:04
fugoliniLet me start with this really important task.19:04
fugoliniAs you know one of our primarily task is making policies19:05
fugoliniwhat this mean? We should be able to understand What to do, how to do it and, then, make sure what we have decided will be applied in the best way possible.19:06
fugoliniFAmSCo cannot monitor case per case (for material reasons) the correct application of the approved policies. This means it's necessary the involvment of local contacts in order to point each country in the right direct.19:06
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fugoliniIn a schematic way this is what this means: <Ambassadors> FAmSCo -> Local Contacts -> Country coordinators </Ambassadors>19:06
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* fugolini is talking about policy application19:08
spevackjust a clarification in terms -- I prefer to say FAMSCO -> Regional Leaders -> all other ambassadors19:08
spevackdoes that change the meaning of what you are trying to say?19:08
spevackRegional/Country Leaders is most correct, I suppose319:09
fugolinino, it's correct. I just add country coordinators, because I see each country, or more of the existing one, have some people who are in contact with Regional leader19:09
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spevackok.  sorry to interrupt!19:10
fugolinispevack: no problem, interrupt me when it's needed19:10
fugoliniFrom the current experience, I see that sometime there are missing chain passage (starting from FAmSCo), that leave country coordinators a not well defined guidelines.19:11
fugoliniSee, for example, the "CountryList transformation" discussion. It's clear that we need to give all the details needed to have a equivalent application of the policy around the world.19:11
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fugolinibut, before this, we need to be in direct, constant contact with Regional Leader: after they will get in touch with the local community19:12
fugolini(and, if not directly, through local coordinators)19:13
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fugolinispevack: tell me if something seems not clear19:14
spevackfugolini: it seems to me that what you are getting at is this:19:14
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spevackFAMSCO needs to take personal responsibility for ensuring that the conversation between regional leaders is happening often, and that we are doing everything we can to make sure that there is clear communication to them, because they are the ones who are then leading those regions/countries.19:15
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spevackfugolini: for example, there is a NA regional meeting tonight.19:15
fugolinispevack: 100% right :), in few words you focus the concept19:16
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spevackfor me, it is at 3 AM, so I cannot attend.  But I know to talk with ke4qqq and herlo and inode0 after the meeting to make sure that we share information19:16
fugolinispevack: great19:16
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* RodrigoPadula come back19:16
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kitalfugolini what do you mean with "one of our primarily task is making policies"19:17
* RodrigoPadula at BR Sales Kick-off19:17
fugolinithat one of our main task is giving a structure that could simplify but19:18
fugolinicoordinate ambassador project19:18
spevackRodrigoPadula: they still won't write me back about the duplicator.  i'm getting angry.  you see my emails.19:18
fugoliniIt's not the only one. I'm not talking about Ambassadors Project task, I'm talking about FAmSCo19:18
fugolinikital: have i clarified the point?19:19
kitalmaybe i get it later ;)19:19
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spevackkital: i think fugolini means that one of famsco's jobs is to deal with the "global policies" that all ambassadors follow, like event reports, etc.19:20
fugoliniWe are policy makers, we were elected to organize Ambassadors Project, and one of the main way is through policies19:20
fugolinispevack: right19:20
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fugoliniI want this point to be clear in order to move forward. Isn't it?19:21
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kitalit is clear19:21
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fugoliniSo, this is, concretely what I have in mind:19:21
fugolini1. When we take a decision/ approve a policy we need to set some deadlines.19:22
fugolinithis is a must. We need to be able to give Regional Leader some guidelines to better address the changes (i'll talk briefly about this during the "country list" example)19:23
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fugolini2. Regional leader should work talking with the community and make sure it has understand: the aims, the consequences and the actions to do19:25
fugolini3. FAmSCo should monitor policy application19:26
kitalok - but what policy?19:26
spevackthis seems fine.  What are the decisions that currently need to be made?19:26
spevackkital: exactly :)19:26
fugolinisure, here it is:19:27
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fugoliniYou know we decided to work on the Country List transformation (forgive me if i used this word)19:27
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fugoliniWe have missed the first point of this scheme. We had to give all the details needed to have a equivalent application of the policy around the world.19:28
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spevackfugolini: i'm a bit confused, i'm sorry.19:28
spevackI understand the *general* point that you are making19:28
spevackand I agree with it.19:28
fugoliniRe: [Ambassadors] Please REPLY to this mail (or you will be *removed* from the Ambassadors Country list.)19:28
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spevacknow i understand!19:29
fugoliniWe have broken the chain since the beginning and this was the result.19:29
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fugoliniIt was mine fault and this is why I thought to discuss with all the local contacts and FAmSCo members19:29
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* MrTom still doesn't19:29
kitali know that what i say now is very unpopular but we can only change the quality of ambassadors if we establish a higher entry level19:30
kital in nearly every other group you have to prove your willingness and ability to contribute19:30
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fugolinikital: the problem is not what it was asked, but how it was asked.19:30
spevackhang on, everyone19:30
kitalwe can not have both good quality and good quantity19:30
spevackwe have two different topics coming together here19:30
spevack 19:30
spevackthe fist topic is what francesco is talking about in a *general case*.19:31
spevackThat is this: "FAMSCo believes that there is a better way to organize the Country List, and we would like to make that a task that we are going to pursue."19:31
kitalthis is what i mean with quality19:31
kitalwe have a closed list to reduce stupid answers19:31
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kitaleven after big STOP from me as the list admin the users did not stop19:32
fugolinikital: now, I'm not talking about the content of the emails, just the way the policy application was handle locally.19:32
spevackfugolini's point is that we decided we wanted to do something about the country list -- and that this decision is *related* to the active/inactive question -- but before we clearly had a plan of action, one region of the world started an email chain about removing people.19:32
kitalthe only thing what i will do next time is put them on moderation19:32
spevackFrancesco's point is that this email chain should never have been started, because that wasn't the plan that we had agreed upon.19:32
spevackAnd francesco's further point -- and this is IMPORTANT -- is that the fault for this is not with susmit, but with FAMSCO collectively -- for not being more clear19:33
spevackthat last point is the MOST IMPORTANT ONE that francesco is trying to make.19:33
spevackfugolini: am i right?19:33
fugolini100% right19:33
spevackMrTom: does that make more sense now?19:33
MrTomyep thanks19:34
spevackfugolini: so the solution to this is that we must be more firm in our meetings and on famsco-list about saying "we have decided to do $FOO, and here are the steps and responsibilities"19:34
spevackthat's all.19:34
spevackit's a learning lesson for everyone.19:34
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fugolinispevack: right19:34
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fugolinithis what at the end the point19:34
ke4qqqso I am concerned that I don't want us to micromanage the regions or locales.... for instance my knowledge of the LATAM environment is next to nil, I know a handful of people there, but that's it, I'd feel awkward telling them how to do something19:35
spevackke4qqq: that's a good point.19:35
ke4qqqand more broadly trying to make every region the same19:36
spevackand in my opinion, there are two separate issues again.19:36
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spevackthe day to day management of a region -- organizing events, getting swag to the right places, trusting people with budget -- this is left entirely to the regional leadership19:36
spevackthough budget stuff does include me by necessity at times.19:36
spevackand i don't think we should mess with that at all19:36
spevackwe have built a model of local accountability that is good.19:36
spevack 19:36
spevackthe slightly separate issue19:37
spevackis in this particulare case of a global initiative -- here something as simple as cleaning up the CountryList page19:37
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spevackwhich really doesn't have anything to do with a particula region19:37
spevackwas suddenly turned into a regional issue, when it didn't need to be, and led to a lot of distraction, confusion, etc.19:37
spevack 19:37
spevackso the lesson19:37
spevackis to separate the regional management, which we have done well i think, from the administrative global stuff, which we are supposed to take care of without causing trouble for the regions.19:38
spevackke4qqq: your thoughts, sir.19:38
ke4qqqthat's a good delineation I think19:38
spevackfugolini: does that make sense?  is that what you're trying to say?  do you agree?19:38
fugoliniabsolutely. You are better than me giving the right concept in few word19:39
fugoliniI think we should take note of this, maybe creating a wiki page, in order to have a memory of this19:40
fugoliniand we have to apply it now with the current discussion19:40
fugoliniwe have set as goal: clean CountryList and we have to achive this one, isn't it? :)19:41
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spevackfugolini: and who is responsible for that goal?19:41
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fugoliniI could work on this task, naturally, if there are volunteers I don't want to19:42
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kitalthe country list is planned as a list where regional leaders have their local contacts ?19:43
kitalnot the Country List we have already - and where the cleanup should happen19:44
spevackmy opinion:19:44
spevackthis page19:44
kitali hope by the end of the month toshio will establish the new FAS changes19:44
spevackis relatively useless.19:44
spevackwhy is it useless?19:44
spevackbecause it requires a manual update, and while this was ok 2 years ago19:45
spevacknow Ambassadors is too big, and growing too fast.19:45
spevackjust look at the list of people on there19:45
spevackwho don't even have a wiki home page.19:45
spevack 19:45
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spevackit should be replaced with TWO SEPARATE things19:45
kitalthen we are able to use  people_by_key to create the automated countrylist19:45
MrTomand because it duplicates informations ... we shloud have the country list extracted from fas19:45
spevack(1) an automated country list19:45
spevackcoming from FAS19:45
spevackexactly right19:45
spevack 19:45
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spevack(2) a simple page that shows the primary contacts for any given region19:46
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spevacklike thi sone19:46
spevackbut for the whole world19:46
kitalok thats a statement :)19:47
ke4qqqso I like the idea of (2) but honestly don't see the purpose of (1) even if automated. Is there one?? If the intent is to have people contact regional leaders then at best it dilutes (2)19:47
spevackke4qqq: (1) simply fills the need for people who care about a global directory of ambassadors, but yeah, i kind of agree with you.  (2) is far more important than (1)19:48
spevackand (1) actually takes work, where (2) is a little bit of work, but mostly organizational19:48
ke4qqqspevack: who are those people?19:48
MrTomwell, isn't the NA wiki page a local "country list" page ? I find it too big (or maybe NA is too big and the list very small)19:48
spevackke4qqq: i don't know :)19:48
spevackke4qqq: but i'm not one of them19:49
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ke4qqqMrTom: it is, and It should be condensed19:49
spevackMrTom: you refer to this page19:49
ke4qqqspevack: neither am I19:49
kital10 minutes left for the meeting19:49
ke4qqqI think we should prefer to purge the countrylist page19:49
fugoliniI think for point 2, the collaboration of local leaders is needed19:49
ke4qqqand create (2)19:49
spevackke4qqq: +119:49
spevackfugolini: and those local leaders are all here in famsco19:49
fugoliniin fact :)19:50
MrTomand maybe 2 or 3 local contacts would be enough19:50
kitalso the automated country list is no longer needed?19:50
MrTomfor each regions19:50
spevackkital: what do you think?19:50
ke4qqqkital: it has a place, but I don't think it should be public, personally.19:50
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spevackif we were to vote, here is how I would write it -- "Should we remove the CountryList, and replace it with a regional contact page for the entire world, based off of the work that the North American region has already done?"19:51
kitallast week this was high prio :P19:51
fugoliniMrTom: I think local contacts should be whatever could be able to give a usefull answer to people19:51
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fugolinispevack: I think we should make a vote, just to have a point to start19:52
kitalShould we remove the CountryList - not for me19:52
MrTomwould the local contact list be manually created ?19:52
spevackMrTom: in my vision, it would be manually created by the leaders of each region.19:52
spevackkital: may i ask why you feel we need the CountryList, either in its manual or automated form?19:53
fugolinithat's the reason of a coordination19:53
kitalwhen i want to be a Ambassador and do not want to depend on a regional leader how can i be found19:53
kitalis it a must to be a team player?19:53
ke4qqqperhaps we'd have each region have a page and transclude it to a single page?19:53
ke4qqqkital: not you don't have to be a team player....but it does solve the problem that started this entire conversation19:53
kitalbtw - i am a teamplayer ;)19:54
fugolinikital: we are a horizontal community, with someone with more responsability. I think we are all a team, but we working in local team. I think we should encourage team (group) work19:54
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spevacki think compromise is easily reached here.19:55
spevacksort of what i said earlier.19:55
spevackwhile I personally tend to agree with ke4qqq that the CountryList might not be needed, I do understand why some people might find it useful, for reasons like what kital says.19:55
spevackso i would say that If and only If we can automate its generation, then it is still worth having as an "index of all ambassadors, generated fro FAS"19:55
ke4qqqkital: CountryList was one of the top 10 viewed pages on the wiki iirc.... I'd rather when people look at that they see people who we know will respond to them (assuming the people looking are outside the community) If we need such information - seems like we could build a script to query fas for famsco and the like.19:56
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spevackbut the regional contact/leadership page, built in coordination with the regional leaders, is far more important.19:56
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fugolinike4qqq: +111119:56
spevackLet me ask this simple question:19:56
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kitalok how is the decission?19:56
spevackDo we all agree that the equivalent of CountryList should *either* be automatically generated or *not exist at all*?19:57
spevackThat the manual process is broken?19:57
spevackCan we get a +1/-1 to that?19:57
spevackRodrigoPadula: ?19:57
spevacki think rodrigo will agree ;)19:58
spevackeither way, that's a lot of +1s19:58
RodrigoPadulasorry, i'm slow because I'm in a meeting19:58
spevackso, now that we all agree on that.19:58
spevackI think that we should indicate on the CountryList page that it is going away in its current form and is going to be automated if possible.19:59
kitalautomated Countrylist will replace the verification page19:59
spevackgreat.  The question that remains is simply "who is leading this effort?"20:00
spevackwonderful!  thank you!20:00
spevacknow that this decision is made20:00
spevackthe second decision is simple:20:00
spevackWe use the NA regional page as an example, and ask each region to produce something similar, and NA to "refresh" their page.20:01
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spevackthen we combine it all together, and advertise the page like crazy.  It should become the most viewed page in all of Fedora Ambassadors20:01
fugoliniThat's why we need coordination, and I volunteer to help in this way20:01
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kitalok my task is Countrylist will replace the verification page20:02
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spevackdelhage: go ahead20:03
delhageis that 1 page or 1 page per region?20:03
fugolinisure, I think we have brake the rule20:03
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spevackdelhage: not sure yet, IMHO.20:03
ke4qqqdelhage: each region does a page and we transclude to a single, at least that's what I see.20:03
spevackdelhage: maybe one landing page that links to individual regional pages.  One page would get really long.20:03
delhagemakes sense20:04
ke4qqqthough countrylist is gigantic by those standards :)20:04
spevackso, that was a long hour, but I think in the end we all have managed to understand each other, make some decisions, and determine ownership of tasks, so I also consider it a valuable hour.20:05
fugoliniok, 1. we had kital for automated process20:05
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fugolini1.  Automatically generated country list -> kital20:05
spevackfugolini: assign #2 to me20:06
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fugoliniah ok20:06
spevackfugolini: the regional pages20:06
fugolini2. individual regional pages -> spevack20:06
* spevack will also take care of the meeting log for tonight.20:06
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fugoliniFor the clarification of the wide process I'll write an email to Ambassadors, in order20:06
fugolinito avoid other broken-chain effect20:07
spevackfugolini: for double clarification, would you send your email to famsco-list first, so that we can see if there is anything in it that might cause more confusion? :)20:07
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MrTomspevack, shouldn't i do it as i already write the summary ?20:07
spevackstickster: stop spamming our channel with your nick changes :)20:07
fugolinispevack: no problem. I'll do this.20:07
spevackMrTom: i was just going to run irc2html and send it to you :)20:08
spevackMrTom: but whatever, you can do it all :)20:08
MrTomif it's done, send it to me, i'll take care of it from next meeting20:08
spevackMrTom: ok20:08
fugolinispevack: anything from budget side to say?20:08
spevackfugolini: nothing that can't wait until next week :)20:08
fugoliniso we can adjourn the meeting, if there isn't something special to add.20:09
spevackthanks to all for your time tonight20:09
fugolini== Meeting adjourned ==20:09
fugolinithank you spevack to have lead this discussion20:09
delhagethanks for letting me crash the party at the end ;)20:10
spevackfugolini: my pleasure.  I think I am good at summarizing what everyone is trying to say in a way that everyone can understand20:10
spevackdelhage: i hope you encourage the others in #fedora-ambassadors to be equally bold :)20:10
... join!#fedora-meeting -> sparli(n=sparli nat/redhat-in/x-923b0e8e79d84eed)20:13
... join!#fedora-meeting -> sdziallas(n=sebastia p57A2CFCD dip t-dialin net)20:14

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