2008-05-19 meeting log

Tue May 20 19:14:27 UTC 2008

May 19 15:59:31 <JonRob>	ok, websites meeting :)
May 19 15:59:44 *	JonRob remembers to enable logging!
May 19 15:59:48 *	abadger1999 (n=abadger1 at 136.245.7.181) has joined
#fedora-meeting
May 19 15:59:55 <JonRob>	<meeting>
May 19 16:00:00 <JonRob>	can i get a roll call please?
May 19 16:00:10 *	ianweller
May 19 16:00:16 *	juank_prada here
May 19 16:00:21 *	wolfy (n=lonewolf at fedora/wolfy) has left
#fedora-meeting ("I can't figure out why women adore babies...
especially since they leak at both ends!")
May 19 16:00:23 *	epkphoto here
May 19 16:00:32 <ivazquez>	Pong.
May 19 16:00:53 *	giarc_w pong
May 19 16:01:01 <JonRob>	let's see if mmcgrath is around too
May 19 16:01:04 *	mmcgrath here
May 19 16:01:10 <JonRob>	heh perfect :)
May 19 16:01:18 <mmcgrath>	JonRob: I always log this channel so if you
ever need it ping me :)
May 19 16:01:24 <JonRob>	cool
May 19 16:01:25 <JonRob>	thanks
May 19 16:01:32 <JonRob>	right, have people seen the agenda?
May 19 16:01:37 <JonRob>	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Meetings
May 19 16:01:59 *	ianweller launches firefox...
May 19 16:02:27 *	rdieter is now known as rdieter_away
May 19 16:02:48 *	abadger1999 here
May 19 16:03:04 *	quaid is here
May 19 16:03:09 <JonRob>	perfect timing
May 19 16:03:15 <JonRob>	we're just about to cover wiki migration
May 19 16:03:20 <quaid>	yeah, didn't mean to be rude about putting
that at the top :)
May 19 16:03:22 <JonRob>	care to fill us in quaid?
May 19 16:03:33 *	notting (n=notting at redhat/notting) has left
#fedora-meeting ("Ex-Chat")
May 19 16:03:34 <quaid>	well, the time has come to jettison Moin
May 19 16:03:41 <JonRob>	np, (almost) anything goes on my watch!
May 19 16:03:43 <ianweller>	harray \o/
May 19 16:03:43 <mmcgrath>	currently planned for next Tuesday.
May 19 16:03:46 <quaid>	and next Tuesday 2008-05-27 we are migrating
to MediaWiki
May 19 16:03:57 <ianweller>	what still needs to be done?
May 19 16:03:57 <quaid>	so
May 19 16:04:18 <quaid>	mmcgrath: can you help steer us to what
Websites is up to for this migration?
May 19 16:04:33 <quaid>	I know Ricky et al have been all over it, but
wider coverage with more resources is a good thing
May 19 16:04:55 <mmcgrath>	Yeah
May 19 16:05:08 <mmcgrath>	so the biggest problem is going to be
fixing the syntax issues that came up from the migration script.
May 19 16:05:12 <mmcgrath>	mostly formatting.
May 19 16:05:29 <mmcgrath>	Its important to get the word out and look
around at our commonly hit pages, etc.
May 19 16:05:37 <ianweller>	i'm working on project page headers
May 19 16:05:42 <JonRob>	common bugs etc/overview etc?
May 19 16:05:44 <mmcgrath>	ianweller and ricky have been working on a
better mediawiki theme and look (they're excellent)
May 19 16:05:52 <mmcgrath>	JonRob: correct.
May 19 16:05:58 <mmcgrath>	_HOPEFULLY_ no content went missing.
May 19 16:06:08 <mmcgrath>	but with thousands and thousands of pages
its hard to say for sure.
May 19 16:06:16 <mmcgrath>	so just in case the old wiki will be left
up for a year.
May 19 16:06:24 <ianweller>	if anything we'll have a read-only copy of
the old moin up
May 19 16:06:27 <mmcgrath>	it'll be read only, so you can always
switch over to how it should look.
May 19 16:06:42 <mmcgrath>	we'll have a robots.txt to make sure that
search engines don't pick it up.
May 19 16:06:51 <mmcgrath>	and we'll be monitoring the logs to make
sure people aren't linking to it.
May 19 16:07:28 <JonRob>	ok
May 19 16:07:42 <JonRob>	so beyond pestering people to look, i saw
quaid blogged earlier
May 19 16:07:56 <mmcgrath>	yeah, get the word out.
May 19 16:08:09 <JonRob>	are there any other concrete tasks that need doing?
May 19 16:08:10 <epkphoto>	the directory structure won't really change
in this transistion, right
May 19 16:08:13 <epkphoto>	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/
will still point to the websites page is assume
May 19 16:08:20 <mmcgrath>	also ping me, ianweller or ricky about
stuff that doesn't seem right. like if a page didn't come up or
something with the actual wiki software seems broken.
May 19 16:08:31 <quaid>	and one thing to note is the split of
ownership in the future, in terms of content, org, and such
May 19 16:08:34 <mmcgrath>	epkphoto: correct, you can play for
yourself at https://publictest1.fedoraproject.org/wiki/
May 19 16:08:50 <JonRob>	quaid: how's that planned to go?
May 19 16:08:51 <quaid>	in that Docs is stepping up to garden the wiki
May 19 16:08:59 <JonRob>	yay for docs :)
May 19 16:09:04 <ianweller>	anybody have any issues with the sidebar links?
May 19 16:09:42 <quaid>	that means setting how things could be so
other groups follow it in the places they own/steward
May 19 16:09:54 <ianweller>	i plan over the next week to pile through
every page on the wiki and make necessary addendums to ticket 31...
May 19 16:09:57 <quaid>	and making room for a hopefully big influx of
people who help solve end-user problems
May 19 16:10:23 <epkphoto>	The content of the links looks good, i
think....could the sidebar width be reduced, or does i18n prevent
that?
May 19 16:10:53 <ianweller>	the sidebar width is exactly that of the main pages
May 19 16:11:14 <epkphoto>	ah, okay
May 19 16:11:17 <juank_prada>	footer notes overlaps if browser isnt maximized
May 19 16:11:35 <ianweller>	juank_prada: yeah i might fix that
May 19 16:11:44 <quaid>	I've been pondering this idea of 'ownership'
and wondering if we want to make it more prominent
May 19 16:11:49 <ianweller>	lots of stuff crammed into the footer :/
May 19 16:11:54 <quaid>	also, the Talk functionality can be useful if
it doesn't fill with spam.
May 19 16:11:57 <juank_prada>	ianweller, good :)
May 19 16:12:15 <quaid>	like, do we want to have a badge on a page
that highlights who 'owns
May 19 16:12:17 <quaid>	 the page?
May 19 16:12:26 <quaid>	and is there a way to do that in an automagic
way v. manual maintenance?
May 19 16:12:30 <JonRob>	quaid: could we use the wiki banners that the
art team have done?
May 19 16:12:33 <ivazquez>	It still shows CC-BY-SA. Were we going to
change that?
May 19 16:12:44 <quaid>	ivazquez: yeah, we need to change that :/
May 19 16:13:09 <ianweller>	what license are wechanging it to?
May 19 16:13:12 <quaid>	JonRob: like that, yes ...
May 19 16:13:13 <mmcgrath>	ivazquez: yeah.
May 19 16:13:15 *	ianweller 's spacebar is borked :<
May 19 16:13:20 <quaid>	so a page is owned by: a person, a SIG, a subproject
May 19 16:13:21 *	fugolini
(n=francesc at host56-184-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has
left #fedora-meeting
May 19 16:13:25 <mmcgrath>	ianweller: we'll be leaving the license alone.
May 19 16:13:26 <quaid>	ivazquez: OPL
May 19 16:13:40 <quaid>	sorry, that was ianweller
May 19 16:14:06 <JonRob>	quaid: i think this is definitely a good idea
May 19 16:14:21 <JonRob>	i'm not sure about down to the level of an individual
May 19 16:14:21 <quaid>	what I'm thinking of might be a plugin?
May 19 16:14:27 <ianweller>	once again, i'm getting the subproject
headers setup.
May 19 16:14:28 <JonRob>	but certainly sub-project/sig
May 19 16:14:33 <quaid>	and could be implemented over time
May 19 16:14:40 <quaid>	in terms of automagic, that is
May 19 16:15:07 <JonRob>	ok, so obviously this is something that docs
and websites are going to have to work closely on in the future?
May 19 16:15:11 <quaid>	yeah
May 19 16:15:12 <juank_prada>	but then individual pages wouldnt have
owner which at the end would make all those ownership not to good
May 19 16:15:44 <ianweller>	i wouldn't have individual ownership, ifa
page needs to be owned by *one* user they can make a subpage under
User:username
May 19 16:15:51 <ianweller>	imho
May 19 16:15:53 <quaid>	juank_prada: right, there is one reason for
going to the individual level.
May 19 16:16:05 *	stickster actually hopes that ownership becomes an
outmoded concept on the wiki.
May 19 16:16:11 <quaid>	I'm not sure, haven't thought it through
May 19 16:16:17 <quaid>	stickster: now hold on son!
May 19 16:16:20 <ianweller>	stickster: agreed +1000000
May 19 16:16:21 <ianweller>	;)
May 19 16:16:24 <quaid>	stickster: we don't have the concept right now
May 19 16:16:39 *	stickster thinking in terms of more authoring hands.
May 19 16:16:52 <quaid>	do you think that badging a page will deter
contributions?
May 19 16:17:07 <stickster>	badging as in... individual, or a subproject?
May 19 16:17:16 <quaid>	whatever, really
May 19 16:17:23 <stickster>	The former more than the latter I think
May 19 16:17:26 <quaid>	if it feels like an individual is a problem,
call it SIG/subproj
May 19 16:17:32 <juank_prada>	badging would make information more reliable imho
May 19 16:17:49 <quaid>	I'm thinking of accountability, mainly
May 19 16:18:03 <quaid>	I want to be able to run a tool that can
detect when a page last lost sponsorship and become orphaned
May 19 16:18:05 <ianweller>	i think what would makeinformation more
reliable is if it is actually reliable, per se ;)
May 19 16:18:10 <quaid>	maybe sponsor is the better terminology
May 19 16:18:13 <stickster>	ah
May 19 16:18:19 <quaid>	ah!
May 19 16:18:28 <ianweller>	whoever owns the page, who cares? its
what's in the page that matters.
May 19 16:18:42 <quaid>	ianweller: several factors:
May 19 16:18:43 <ianweller>	if an edit needs to be made, i don't think
you need to contact the owner, unless its policy
May 19 16:18:47 <stickster>	I'm thinking in terms of being a total new
person with a yen to edit. I get my FAS2 setup, click over to the wiki
and... "This page owned by John Public."
May 19 16:18:49 <quaid>	1. too few people relied upon to watch the entire wiki
May 19 16:18:58 <quaid>	2. possibility that page changes fall between the cracks
May 19 16:19:10 <quaid>	3. some places get lots of watchers, others fewer
May 19 16:19:10 <stickster>	n00b .oO {Oops, is it still OK for me to edit?}
May 19 16:19:22 <quaid>	stickster: right!
May 19 16:19:40 <quaid>	how about, "This page is sponsored by the
Astronomy SIG, please contact them if you have any questions while
editing."
May 19 16:20:00 <JonRob>	quaid: i think that's perfect
May 19 16:20:00 <juank_prada>	sounds good to me
May 19 16:20:04 <ianweller>	can we do that in  so it
doesn't show up on the page?
May 19 16:20:06 <JonRob>	for people visitng the page that's all they
need to know
May 19 16:20:14 <ianweller>	only while they'reediting?
May 19 16:20:18 <stickster>	As long as we are empowering people to "be bold."
May 19 16:20:21 *	ianweller hates this spacebar
May 19 16:20:21 <quaid>	ianweller: that's another possibility, sure; i
see that value
May 19 16:20:22 <JonRob>	what's more important imho is that the
sig/individual who owns it stays on top of their content
May 19 16:20:37 <ianweller>	JonRob: +1
May 19 16:20:38 <JonRob>	and keeps an eye to know that it's accurate/up-to date
May 19 16:20:51 <quaid>	JonRob: right, so it is a SIG role "the
Documentor" who watches those pages for certain, and makes sure other
SIG members do too
May 19 16:21:10 <JonRob>	quaid: yeah pretty much
May 19 16:21:34 <mmcgrath>	Side note to you guys, you should be able
to actually log in to the wiki now at
https://publictest2.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ with your FAS username and
password.
May 19 16:21:34 <quaid>	so, then, the reason for having it visible in
the read-only side
May 19 16:21:46 <quaid>	is to advertise that this is not abandoned
content, etc. ... give it credibility
May 19 16:22:00 <JonRob>	quaid: that's a cool idea
May 19 16:22:09 <JonRob>	a big problem on the wiki now is knowing what's recent
May 19 16:22:11 <quaid>	fwiw, I would like automagic that put it in
the edit notes, too, so one didn't have to reload if you forget :)
May 19 16:22:30 <juank_prada>	thats what i was thinking about reliability :P
May 19 16:22:32 <JonRob>	ok...so with this in mind
May 19 16:22:41 *	quaid sees Tasks being added ...
May 19 16:22:42 <JonRob>	is there something we can pull out of this to
put on a task list :p
May 19 16:22:46 <quaid>	:D
May 19 16:22:47 *	fbijlsma has quit ("Leaving")
May 19 16:22:47 <JonRob>	lol yes
May 19 16:23:01 <JonRob>	would you like to add it and take ownership for it?
May 19 16:23:04 <quaid>	* research MW plugin to manage page sponsorship
May 19 16:23:06 <JonRob>	quaid that is
May 19 16:23:26 <quaid>	* visible badges to show sponsorship and make
people feel empowered/emboldened and not afraid to edit
May 19 16:23:27 <epkphoto>	mmcgrath: so when users log in with FAS,
will we still have separate wiki accounts, or will that be a things of
the past?
May 19 16:23:27 <JonRob>	cool...if all are happy, shall we move on to
the next agenda item?
May 19 16:23:32 <ianweller>	i don't think we need an extension.
extensions just make things messy, we could just use a template.
May 19 16:23:40 <ianweller>	something like {{sponsor|Ian Weller}}
May 19 16:23:49 *	ianweller can write one fastlike
May 19 16:23:55 <quaid>	* process to get SIGs/Subprojs to sponsor pages
May 19 16:24:04 <mmcgrath>	epkphoto: a thing of the past.
May 19 16:24:09 <epkphoto>	cool
May 19 16:24:19 <quaid>	ianweller: interesting; we should talk about
that out of the meeting :D
May 19 16:24:25 <quaid>	JonRob: those are the tasks I see
May 19 16:24:35 <JonRob>	ok quaid: are you happy to own those?
May 19 16:24:46 <quaid>	one for a designer, one for me (research
plugin), and one for ... well, who "owns" sponsorship?
May 19 16:24:49 <quaid>	is that a Docs thing ?
May 19 16:24:59 <JonRob>	i would have thought so
May 19 16:25:02 <quaid>	research plugin == me + ianweller I hope :D
May 19 16:25:05 <JonRob>	in a wiki gardening role
May 19 16:25:06 <JonRob>	ok sure
May 19 16:25:21 <quaid>	ok, I'll handle/delegate that one
May 19 16:25:24 <JonRob>	i'll add them to the tasks list and ping the
art list following the meeting to hunt down a designer owner
May 19 16:25:27 <quaid>	are you editing the tasks page?
May 19 16:25:29 <quaid>	thx !
May 19 16:25:31 <JonRob>	not now
May 19 16:25:43 <quaid>	ok, I'll let you add them to not get too many
chefs in the soupcon
May 19 16:25:43 <JonRob>	right...next item!
May 19 16:25:47 <quaid>	rock!
May 19 16:26:13 <JonRob>	let's review the stuff that's on the task
list now and see if people have progressed over the week, what we can
do to help out etc!
May 19 16:26:23 <JonRob>	(woah, i def use too many "!")
May 19 16:26:38 <ianweller>	!!!!!
May 19 16:26:41 *	quaid wasn't teasing, he swears it's so!
May 19 16:26:57 <JonRob>	Juan and Craig, how have things gone with
get-fedora lately?
May 19 16:27:15 <giarc_w>	nothing new to report, from me
May 19 16:27:39 <JonRob>	any questions or things you'd like help with?
May 19 16:27:59 <JonRob>	and any possibility of getting a date set for
a draft version that we could start thinking about implementing?
May 19 16:28:15 *	stickster high-fives mmcgrath
May 19 16:29:04 <giarc_w>	well, i wonder if we are even on the right
track with the work we have started, considering we are going to be
pushing the i386live cd iso ?
May 19 16:29:32 <giarc_w>	what do people think?
May 19 16:29:59 <JonRob>	i personally thought that if we refined the
language we had a pretty good direction
May 19 16:30:10 *	JonRob looks for link
May 19 16:30:19 <juank_prada>	not sure about what craig have done..
ive been quite busy this week so i havent had the chance to work on
that
May 19 16:30:19 <juank_prada>	thing is so far we have working and
fancy get-fedora section
May 19 16:30:25 <juank_prada>	the "fancy" animations can quickly be
removed and we would end up with something similar to what opensuse's
webiste has right now
May 19 16:30:30 <juank_prada>	which is a 3 steps selection that i
still think is a good thing to do for new users
May 19 16:30:39 <giarc_w>	right
May 19 16:30:56 *	juank_prada has quit ("Leaving")
May 19 16:30:58 <giarc_w>	the 'bling' can just be removed, and the
basic idea is the same
May 19 16:31:09 *	juank_prada (n=juanky at 200.114.38.35) has joined
#fedora-meeting
May 19 16:31:17 <JonRob>	even toned down bling could be a nice touch i think
May 19 16:31:23 <giarc_w>	http://craigt.fedorapeople.org/get-fedora-2/get-fedora
May 19 16:31:37 <juank_prada>	sorry... wireless here is not that good
May 19 16:31:39 <juank_prada>	did i miss something?
May 19 16:31:56 <JonRob>	nothing really, no
May 19 16:32:04 <JonRob>	ok, looking at it for myself
May 19 16:32:15 <giarc_w>	actually, wrong link: sorry
May 19 16:32:18 <giarc_w>	this is the latest:
May 19 16:32:19
<giarc_w>	http://craigt.fedorapeople.org/get-fedora-drafts/get-fedora.html
May 19 16:32:36 *	JonRob looks at latest
May 19 16:32:52 <mmcgrath>	maybe next to "32 bit PC" we'll want to put
"Normal Laptop and desktop computers)
May 19 16:33:01 <juank_prada>	+1
May 19 16:33:01 <JonRob>	mmcgrath: +1
May 19 16:33:04 <ianweller>	+1
May 19 16:33:07 <giarc_w>	yeah, the language def needs help
May 19 16:33:13 <JonRob>	a few simple changes to the language will
make it much more newb friendly
May 19 16:33:18 <ianweller>	hey is there an easy way to check what bit
processor you have on windows/mac?
May 19 16:33:26 <ianweller>	(mac with intel)
May 19 16:33:58 <juank_prada>	mac would be using x86_64... arent all
those using intel core 2 duo?
May 19 16:34:04 <JonRob>	beyond that, if we toned down the bling and
made the fonts a bit smaller
May 19 16:34:09 <JonRob>	i think we've got something good here
May 19 16:34:21 <ianweller>	juank_prada: i know that the ubuntu CDs
have little labels saying what processor types go with what
architechture
May 19 16:34:23 <juank_prada>	JonRob, font issue is fixed with current fp.o site
May 19 16:34:26 <ianweller>	iirc
May 19 16:34:27 <JonRob>	ok cool
May 19 16:34:29 <giarc_w>	(hm, the latest code is not there i
guess...users could 'go back' and click previous steps and begin from
that step)
May 19 16:34:33 <mmcgrath>	I think we shouldn't shy away from telling
people to use i386 even though they have an x86_64 box.
May 19 16:34:52 <mmcgrath>	Kind of as a "if they don't know, just do i386"
May 19 16:35:02 <juank_prada>	yeah
May 19 16:35:02 <ianweller>	hmm. i think instead of having a vertical
approach to doing that, why don't we do a horizontal slide, if we're
using javascript anyway?
May 19 16:35:28 <JonRob>	so maybe at the start of the page we could
have a "not sure? download this" link
May 19 16:35:29 <giarc_w>	mmcgrath, right, exactly...if they don't
know we know it works
May 19 16:35:32 <juank_prada>	horizontal isn that great.. what if you
need a click on the left nav menu
May 19 16:35:37 <JonRob>	along with a mirror list link for the pros
May 19 16:35:51 <mmcgrath>	I'm not sure how to word that.  Its hard to
say something like that in few words that will be translatable.
May 19 16:35:54 <JonRob>	and then we could jump into the automated
choose your own adventure style for those who are in between
May 19 16:35:57 <ianweller>	juank_prada: what i'm thinking of is
somethingl ike this, at the bottom of the page--
http://my.deviantart.com/services/#subscription
May 19 16:36:42 <juank_prada>	JonRob, i think we should first settle
thing about the top ten things to do with the website before focusing
on get-fedora
May 19 16:36:47 <ianweller>	except more progressive, not tab-like
May 19 16:37:06 <juank_prada>	ianweller, oh i se.. nice thing :)
May 19 16:37:27 <JonRob>	juank_prada
May 19 16:37:38 <JonRob>	i believe we were carrying both these tasks in parallel
May 19 16:37:48 <JonRob>	but nobody stepped up as owner for the new
look and feel task
May 19 16:37:54 *	mmcgrath brb, phone
May 19 16:38:07 <JonRob>	but, i agree you have a point here
May 19 16:38:26 <giarc_w>	we need artists for new look and feel, no ?
May 19 16:38:37 <JonRob>	yeah, i was hoping mizmo would be here today
May 19 16:39:00 <JonRob>	everyone saw this post right:
May 19 16:39:00
<JonRob>	https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-May/msg00094.html
May 19 16:39:01 *	ianweller could maybe do something.
May 19 16:39:16 <JonRob>	just quickly before we move on
May 19 16:39:21 <juank_prada>	yeah
May 19 16:39:26 <juank_prada>	thats what im talking about
May 19 16:39:29 <JonRob>	can i poll people on there thoughts on get-fedora
May 19 16:39:53 <JonRob>	is this a task that's worth progressing with
before we have the new look and feel in place?
May 19 16:40:18 <juank_prada>	if we are making changes to other
sections like the front page... we might end up with a one click
download in there so it wont be necesary to do it again in the
get-fedora
May 19 16:40:24 *	tibbs has quit ("Konversation terminated!")
May 19 16:40:32 <JonRob>	juank_prada
May 19 16:40:33 <quaid>	juank_prada: except for the people who want
more than one click :)
May 19 16:40:47 <JonRob>	and also that we're putting
get.fedoraproject.org on cds and websties
May 19 16:41:05 <JonRob>	along with join.fedoraproject.org, i think
these are the two main domains we agreed upon
May 19 16:41:12 <quaid>	right, we do need a comprehensive get it page
May 19 16:41:20 <juank_prada>	quaid, of course.. what i mean is... if
we are showing the one click method in the front page it wont be
needed in the get-fedora so we can focus on the long process
May 19 16:41:23 *	mmcgrath back
May 19 16:41:41 <quaid>	juank_prada: still, we'll need some form of it
May 19 16:41:44 <ianweller>	i think we need a large banner that
prompts the user to i686 gnome live CD on both the index page and
get-fedora, since that's the most popular, and then on the index page
a link to "more architechtures and downloads", and on get-fedora, its
just right there ina  javascript selector under that
May 19 16:41:46 <quaid>	for people who come via get.fp.o
May 19 16:42:14 <abadger1999>	"more architectures, more choices"
May 19 16:42:15 <quaid>	it seems safe to work on this task in parallel
with the new look/feel
May 19 16:42:22 <ianweller>	abadger1999: +1 :D
May 19 16:42:26 <JonRob>	so long as everything is css themeable
May 19 16:42:31 <JonRob>	and compatible with the rest of fp.o
May 19 16:42:55 <giarc_w>	the css is re-used already, we have just
added javascript
May 19 16:43:01 <giarc_w>	and not in the markup
May 19 16:43:04 <JonRob>	giarc_w: ok cool
May 19 16:43:08 <quaid>	the only risk
May 19 16:43:09 <giarc_w>	one .js file
May 19 16:43:16 <quaid>	is if the new look forces horiz or vert
May 19 16:43:18 <quaid>	:)
May 19 16:43:28 *	quaid is quiet now
May 19 16:43:32 <JonRob>	ok...
May 19 16:43:48 <giarc_w>	the markup so far is simple <ul>s , so they
should flow with new page layouts
May 19 16:44:20 <JonRob>	i'm happy to leave this with juank_prada and
giarc_w for now
May 19 16:44:27 <JonRob>	and come back to it again next week
May 19 16:44:34 <JonRob>	i know we haven't made a lot of definite progress
May 19 16:44:38 *	cyberpear
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May 19 16:44:53 <JonRob>	but i'm not we're likely to achieve much more in here
May 19 16:45:04 <JonRob>	better to discuss on the list, brainstorm more ideas
May 19 16:45:10 <JonRob>	and keep trying until we find something we like?
May 19 16:45:27 <juank_prada>	yeap that sounds good we cant decide
based only on one idea
May 19 16:45:27 <JonRob>	and perhaps blog it on planet, and get feed
back from plenty of other people too
May 19 16:46:06 <JonRob>	if it's OK then, we'll move on?
May 19 16:46:14 <giarc_w>	ok with me
May 19 16:46:25 <JonRob>	although i fear we're going to end up with a
similar discussion next
May 19 16:46:27 <juank_prada>	giarc_w, would you work on mizmo's
desgin (the one showed in a paper) ? and i start working on something
else to show?
May 19 16:46:53 <JonRob>	juank_prada: did you make progress with a
list of items that we need to do to create a spins.fp.o site?
May 19 16:46:57 <giarc_w>	the .pdf she scanned in from a her notebook ? :)
May 19 16:47:03 <giarc_w>	yes
May 19 16:47:05 <giarc_w>	i will
May 19 16:47:14 <juank_prada>	giarc_w, great :)
May 19 16:47:37 <juank_prada>	JonRob, well i wrote a note to the ml
asking some questions that need to be answered imho
May 19 16:47:44 *	JonRob notes he has a 2100 cut-off, looks for
somebody else who's willing to lead when i vanish
May 19 16:47:52 <JonRob>	juank_prada: i saw that
May 19 16:48:06 <JonRob>	shall we pick this point up on the list then
following the meeting?
May 19 16:48:31 <JonRob>	if we start the ball rolling, others are sure
to join in the conversation :)
May 19 16:48:31 <juank_prada>	thing is.. we need to answer that in
order to start working on a script to build the site or something else
May 19 16:48:48 <JonRob>	juank_prada: that's cool, we'll take it from there then
May 19 16:49:04 <juank_prada>	as right now i cant seem that we have a
clear idea on what to do with spinis
May 19 16:49:30 <JonRob>	shall we move on?
May 19 16:49:39 <juank_prada>	yeap
May 19 16:49:46 <JonRob>	ricky's not here
May 19 16:50:04 <JonRob>	so giarc_w - did you have a chance to think
about the domain list and a common look and feel
May 19 16:50:17 <JonRob>	or are we going to hold on this until we have
new look and feel (tm) in place
May 19 16:50:52 <juank_prada>	JonRob, ricky wanted us to talk about
licensing/policy about templatings and CSS
May 19 16:51:02 <JonRob>	juank_prada - yep we're getting there
May 19 16:51:05 <JonRob>	it's on the agenda :)
May 19 16:51:23 <juank_prada>	oh.. sorry ^^
May 19 16:51:38 <giarc_w>	i have, but have no progress on actual work yet
May 19 16:52:03 *	tw2113 (n=tw2113 at host-194-154-111-24.midco.net) has
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May 19 16:52:09 <JonRob>	ok no problem, we'll revisit this next week too then?
May 19 16:52:16 <giarc_w>	yes please :)
May 19 16:52:24 <tw2113>	michaelbeckwith present and accounted for sir *salutes*
May 19 16:52:41 <JonRob>	right, last on tasks is the new look and feel
May 19 16:52:46 <JonRob>	(hey tw2113 :))
May 19 16:53:18 <JonRob>	is somebody willing to take this up and chase
it with art to get a definite plan in place?
May 19 16:53:20 <tw2113>	i wanted to be here and on time, but had
someone show up late, so i got to cover and whatnot
May 19 16:53:28 <JonRob>	np
May 19 16:54:18 <juank_prada>	JonRob, i thin mizmo is working on some
usability test to start working on look and feel of the site
May 19 16:54:30 <juank_prada>	but it would be better to ask her
May 19 16:54:34 <JonRob>	ok cool - i'll try and follow up with her
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May 19 16:54:53 <JonRob>	and i'll parse that conversation and get it
into a comprehensible form!
May 19 16:55:18 <JonRob>	oh gosh we're only half way through the agenda!
May 19 16:55:32 <tw2113>	link plz
May 19 16:55:41 <JonRob>	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Meetings
May 19 16:55:43 <JonRob>	i have to go
May 19 16:55:58 <JonRob>	can i ask someone to take over for me?
May 19 16:56:34 *	giarc_w needs to head to a meeting in 5, maybe if we
are only .5 way, we continue next week ?
May 19 16:56:50 <JonRob>	show of hands?
May 19 16:57:05 <JonRob>	some of the stuff is going to be a pretty
invovled discusion
May 19 16:57:08 <JonRob>	some will be much quicker
May 19 16:57:13 <epkphoto>	+1 continue next week
May 19 16:57:16 <JonRob>	and at least one item can go entirely!
May 19 16:57:25 <giarc_w>	+1 if we can get the license question sorted now ?
May 19 16:57:35 <ianweller>	+1, agree with giarc_w
May 19 16:57:41 <JonRob>	can someone take that for me....really have to run!
May 19 16:57:46 <JonRob>	i'll keep logging
May 19 16:57:46 <giarc_w>	ok
May 19 16:57:52 <JonRob>	and post minutes etc tomorrow
May 19 16:57:55 <giarc_w>	thanks JonRob
May 19 16:57:58 <JonRob>	np
May 19 16:58:00 <giarc_w>	I need to run as well,
May 19 16:58:01 <JonRob>	thanks for coming all
May 19 16:58:05 <JonRob>	bye!!
May 19 16:58:09 <juank_prada>	bye :)
May 19 16:58:10 <giarc_w>	so, what license is our websites code under ?
May 19 16:58:33 <giarc_w>	we have had more than one question on the
m-l and from users wanting to use the code
May 19 16:58:48 <giarc_w>	we should also have that info on the site,
should we not ?
May 19 16:59:03 <epkphoto>	well, the static pages say, "All Rights Reserved."
May 19 16:59:14 <juank_prada>	it should be in the footer or in the Legal link
May 19 16:59:22 <ianweller>	or both
May 19 16:59:50 <epkphoto>	"We are working on licensing the texts of
this website. Texts contributed after 2006-02-19 or by members of the
EditGroup are licensed under the terms of the  Open Publication
License v1.0 without options, except where otherwise noted. All other
content is not licensed for copying or redistribution, except where
otherwise noted."
May 19 16:59:54 <juank_prada>	well.. coyright isnt exactly for
templating ist it?
May 19 16:59:56 <epkphoto>	http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal
May 19 17:00:30 <juank_prada>	why is the legal note in the wiki too?
May 19 17:00:46 <ianweller>	because i put it there
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May 19 17:01:00 <ianweller>	should wedo something different?
May 19 17:01:02 <giarc_w>	ok, well does the word 'Text' cover our
markup/css/js ?
May 19 17:01:27 <giarc_w>	i read that as content, not code, but i have
no idea with such matters
May 19 17:01:29 <juank_prada>	shouldnt it be a static page along with
the rest of the site to be translated too?
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May 19 17:01:47 <tw2113>	i don't think markup/css can be copyrighted, personally
May 19 17:01:58 <ianweller>	its code, code can be copyrighted
May 19 17:02:04 <giarc_w>	sure it can
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May 19 17:02:06 <juank_prada>	giarc_w, i think that are two different
things... one is the code and another is the content shown
May 19 17:02:13 <tw2113>	one of the best ways to learn and be inspired
is by looking at the markup and whatnot of others
May 19 17:02:14 <giarc_w>	juank_prada, right
May 19 17:02:32 <ianweller>	tw2113: you can be 'inspired' without
breaking copyright, most of thetime ;)
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May 19 17:02:37 <giarc_w>	and i am not sure that legal stmnt is
covering both, is it ?
May 19 17:02:46 <juank_prada>	dont think so
May 19 17:02:52 <juank_prada>	it talks about content
May 19 17:02:56 <juank_prada>	not code or styles
May 19 17:03:09 <giarc_w>	ok, so the short answer seems to be 'we
don't know' what license the code us under?
May 19 17:03:22 <ianweller>	you can copyright art, and html/css is in
its own right 'art', so you can copyright html/css
May 19 17:03:34 <ianweller>	oh wait that's not the argument.
May 19 17:03:35 *	ianweller hides
May 19 17:03:40 <tw2113>	something i remember reading about in a legal
type statement for freelancing, was the idea of a client trying to
copyright an entire website, but the freelancer stated that he's going
to take the code stuff with him and modify as he saw fit, or
something, for other projects he gets
May 19 17:04:25 <juank_prada>	tw2113, is hard to copyright code in a
website as pretty much all websites are coded the same way
May 19 17:04:44 <tw2113>	not worth the bother to try and copyright
that part, if you ask me
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May 19 17:05:40 <juank_prada>	i remember someone letting know in the
ml that the template could be used as a base ...
May 19 17:06:37 <giarc_w>	yeah, the sentiment is share it, but i don't
think we are explicit about that anywhere
May 19 17:06:58 <juank_prada>	we should decide how to license that....
and just paste it into the legal notes
May 19 17:07:28 <ianweller>	isn't there something in the CLA about it?
May 19 17:07:38 <ianweller>	since everybody who contributed to it was
under the CLA, afaik
May 19 17:08:41 <giarc_w>	ok, can someone chase that ? and find out if
'fedora' has a license for the web sites code already and what it is?
and if not, what that will be
May 19 17:09:18 <juank_prada>	we should post the ml... marketing and
websites somebody have to know
May 19 17:09:19 <giarc_w>	i suspect the license is not our choice, but
mandated by higherups
May 19 17:09:25 <giarc_w>	right
May 19 17:09:54 <ianweller>	talk to RH legal?
May 19 17:10:13 <giarc_w>	...something like that i guess, i don't know who
May 19 17:10:16 <juank_prada>	ianweller, sound a logic thing to do
May 19 17:10:53 *	giarc_w needs to get going, already late
May 19 17:11:03 <giarc_w>	see you all later
May 19 17:11:16 <quaid>	hmm
May 19 17:11:25 <quaid>	well, the CLA is there as a fall back in the
case of no license
May 19 17:11:46 <juank_prada>	giarc_w, see you later :)
May 19 17:11:50 <quaid>	and it grants a copyright license to do a
bunch of stuff, and it applies to all contributions including the
html/css most likely
May 19 17:12:05 <quaid>	it would be better, IMO, to declare an actual
license we prefer
May 19 17:12:15 <quaid>	and as the originators of the code and runners
of the project on fedorahosted.org
May 19 17:12:28 <quaid>	afaik we can choose any license that is
acceptable to Fedora.
May 19 17:12:52 <quaid>	that is, licensing of upstream software is at
the discretion of the actual upstream itself, which in this case is
the Websites subproject, right?
May 19 17:13:02 <juank_prada>	yeap
May 19 17:13:24 <quaid>	I mean, we could go back and get approval from
everyone in the chain, but it's arguable that the CLA covers that
already, and if we don't choose a bad license ...
May 19 17:13:24 <juank_prada>	so... shal we decide?
May 19 17:13:36 <quaid>	well, looks like too many people are gone from
this meeting
May 19 17:13:48 <quaid>	but it could be resolved with an on list discussion
May 19 17:14:24 <juank_prada>	alrite then...
May 19 17:15:10 <juank_prada>	we should really end this meeting now
and settle thing in the ml or next meeting... no progress es being
made
May 19 17:15:23 <quaid>	+1
May 19 17:15:28 <ianweller>	+1
May 19 17:15:30 <epkphoto>	+1
May 19 17:15:31 <ianweller>	(or talk to RH legal.)
May 19 17:15:46 <ianweller>	i figure that's the safest
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May 19 17:16:33 <tw2113>	works for me
May 19 17:17:04 <ivazquez>	ISTM that licensing of the web stuff is
indeed Fedora's domain. Perhaps it should be brought up to the board?
May 19 17:17:31 <ivazquez>	Hrm, wait. The web stuff falls under the CLA.
May 19 17:17:41 <ivazquez>	Alright, RH legal it is.
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May 19 17:23:06 <quaid>	ivazquez: by RH Legal, you mean what?
May 19 17:23:56 <ivazquez>	We should figure out if it's possible to
put the website layout under another license independent of the CLA.
May 19 17:24:07 <quaid>	this is an interesting question, so far I
think everyone has just picked a license.
May 19 17:24:10 <quaid>	ah, possible.
May 19 17:24:42 *	quaid doesn't see why not but INAL
May 19 17:24:52 <ivazquez>	Likewise.
May 19 17:25:13 <quaid>	although the just lettiing anyone pick a
license is how we ended up with the GNU FDL 1.0 *spit* on Fedora Docs
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May 19 17:25:37 <ivazquez>	If we can, then we should decide what to
put it under and then let the board have the final yea or nay.
May 19 17:25:56 <quaid>	so, we assign that to spot and ask him nicely
to find out for us and bring back a license recommendation or
requirement
May 19 17:26:05 <ivazquez>	Agreed.
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May 19 17:27:50 <ivazquez>	Alright, I suppose we're done for now then.
May 19 17:28:01 <ivazquez>	</meeting>