2008-05-19 meeting log
Jonathan Roberts
jonrob at fedoraproject.org
Tue May 20 19:46:21 UTC 2008
Thanks Craig,
I was just about to post minutes too :)
Best,
Jon
2008/5/20 Craig Thomas <bicycle.nutz at gmail.com>:
> May 19 15:59:31 <JonRob> ok, websites meeting :)
> May 19 15:59:44 * JonRob remembers to enable logging!
> May 19 15:59:48 * abadger1999 (n=abadger1 at 136.245.7.181) has joined
> #fedora-meeting
> May 19 15:59:55 <JonRob> <meeting>
> May 19 16:00:00 <JonRob> can i get a roll call please?
> May 19 16:00:10 * ianweller
> May 19 16:00:16 * juank_prada here
> May 19 16:00:21 * wolfy (n=lonewolf at fedora/wolfy) has left
> #fedora-meeting ("I can't figure out why women adore babies...
> especially since they leak at both ends!")
> May 19 16:00:23 * epkphoto here
> May 19 16:00:32 <ivazquez> Pong.
> May 19 16:00:53 * giarc_w pong
> May 19 16:01:01 <JonRob> let's see if mmcgrath is around too
> May 19 16:01:04 * mmcgrath here
> May 19 16:01:10 <JonRob> heh perfect :)
> May 19 16:01:18 <mmcgrath> JonRob: I always log this channel so if you
> ever need it ping me :)
> May 19 16:01:24 <JonRob> cool
> May 19 16:01:25 <JonRob> thanks
> May 19 16:01:32 <JonRob> right, have people seen the agenda?
> May 19 16:01:37 <JonRob> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Meetings
> May 19 16:01:59 * ianweller launches firefox...
> May 19 16:02:27 * rdieter is now known as rdieter_away
> May 19 16:02:48 * abadger1999 here
> May 19 16:03:04 * quaid is here
> May 19 16:03:09 <JonRob> perfect timing
> May 19 16:03:15 <JonRob> we're just about to cover wiki migration
> May 19 16:03:20 <quaid> yeah, didn't mean to be rude about putting
> that at the top :)
> May 19 16:03:22 <JonRob> care to fill us in quaid?
> May 19 16:03:33 * notting (n=notting at redhat/notting) has left
> #fedora-meeting ("Ex-Chat")
> May 19 16:03:34 <quaid> well, the time has come to jettison Moin
> May 19 16:03:41 <JonRob> np, (almost) anything goes on my watch!
> May 19 16:03:43 <ianweller> harray \o/
> May 19 16:03:43 <mmcgrath> currently planned for next Tuesday.
> May 19 16:03:46 <quaid> and next Tuesday 2008-05-27 we are migrating
> to MediaWiki
> May 19 16:03:57 <ianweller> what still needs to be done?
> May 19 16:03:57 <quaid> so
> May 19 16:04:18 <quaid> mmcgrath: can you help steer us to what
> Websites is up to for this migration?
> May 19 16:04:33 <quaid> I know Ricky et al have been all over it, but
> wider coverage with more resources is a good thing
> May 19 16:04:55 <mmcgrath> Yeah
> May 19 16:05:08 <mmcgrath> so the biggest problem is going to be
> fixing the syntax issues that came up from the migration script.
> May 19 16:05:12 <mmcgrath> mostly formatting.
> May 19 16:05:29 <mmcgrath> Its important to get the word out and look
> around at our commonly hit pages, etc.
> May 19 16:05:37 <ianweller> i'm working on project page headers
> May 19 16:05:42 <JonRob> common bugs etc/overview etc?
> May 19 16:05:44 <mmcgrath> ianweller and ricky have been working on a
> better mediawiki theme and look (they're excellent)
> May 19 16:05:52 <mmcgrath> JonRob: correct.
> May 19 16:05:58 <mmcgrath> _HOPEFULLY_ no content went missing.
> May 19 16:06:08 <mmcgrath> but with thousands and thousands of pages
> its hard to say for sure.
> May 19 16:06:16 <mmcgrath> so just in case the old wiki will be left
> up for a year.
> May 19 16:06:24 <ianweller> if anything we'll have a read-only copy of
> the old moin up
> May 19 16:06:27 <mmcgrath> it'll be read only, so you can always
> switch over to how it should look.
> May 19 16:06:42 <mmcgrath> we'll have a robots.txt to make sure that
> search engines don't pick it up.
> May 19 16:06:51 <mmcgrath> and we'll be monitoring the logs to make
> sure people aren't linking to it.
> May 19 16:07:28 <JonRob> ok
> May 19 16:07:42 <JonRob> so beyond pestering people to look, i saw
> quaid blogged earlier
> May 19 16:07:56 <mmcgrath> yeah, get the word out.
> May 19 16:08:09 <JonRob> are there any other concrete tasks that need doing?
> May 19 16:08:10 <epkphoto> the directory structure won't really change
> in this transistion, right
> May 19 16:08:13 <epkphoto> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/
> will still point to the websites page is assume
> May 19 16:08:20 <mmcgrath> also ping me, ianweller or ricky about
> stuff that doesn't seem right. like if a page didn't come up or
> something with the actual wiki software seems broken.
> May 19 16:08:31 <quaid> and one thing to note is the split of
> ownership in the future, in terms of content, org, and such
> May 19 16:08:34 <mmcgrath> epkphoto: correct, you can play for
> yourself at https://publictest1.fedoraproject.org/wiki/
> May 19 16:08:50 <JonRob> quaid: how's that planned to go?
> May 19 16:08:51 <quaid> in that Docs is stepping up to garden the wiki
> May 19 16:08:59 <JonRob> yay for docs :)
> May 19 16:09:04 <ianweller> anybody have any issues with the sidebar links?
> May 19 16:09:42 <quaid> that means setting how things could be so
> other groups follow it in the places they own/steward
> May 19 16:09:54 <ianweller> i plan over the next week to pile through
> every page on the wiki and make necessary addendums to ticket 31...
> May 19 16:09:57 <quaid> and making room for a hopefully big influx of
> people who help solve end-user problems
> May 19 16:10:23 <epkphoto> The content of the links looks good, i
> think....could the sidebar width be reduced, or does i18n prevent
> that?
> May 19 16:10:53 <ianweller> the sidebar width is exactly that of the main pages
> May 19 16:11:14 <epkphoto> ah, okay
> May 19 16:11:17 <juank_prada> footer notes overlaps if browser isnt maximized
> May 19 16:11:35 <ianweller> juank_prada: yeah i might fix that
> May 19 16:11:44 <quaid> I've been pondering this idea of 'ownership'
> and wondering if we want to make it more prominent
> May 19 16:11:49 <ianweller> lots of stuff crammed into the footer :/
> May 19 16:11:54 <quaid> also, the Talk functionality can be useful if
> it doesn't fill with spam.
> May 19 16:11:57 <juank_prada> ianweller, good :)
> May 19 16:12:15 <quaid> like, do we want to have a badge on a page
> that highlights who 'owns
> May 19 16:12:17 <quaid> the page?
> May 19 16:12:26 <quaid> and is there a way to do that in an automagic
> way v. manual maintenance?
> May 19 16:12:30 <JonRob> quaid: could we use the wiki banners that the
> art team have done?
> May 19 16:12:33 <ivazquez> It still shows CC-BY-SA. Were we going to
> change that?
> May 19 16:12:44 <quaid> ivazquez: yeah, we need to change that :/
> May 19 16:13:09 <ianweller> what license are wechanging it to?
> May 19 16:13:12 <quaid> JonRob: like that, yes ...
> May 19 16:13:13 <mmcgrath> ivazquez: yeah.
> May 19 16:13:15 * ianweller 's spacebar is borked :<
> May 19 16:13:20 <quaid> so a page is owned by: a person, a SIG, a subproject
> May 19 16:13:21 * fugolini
> (n=francesc at host56-184-dynamic.11-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has
> left #fedora-meeting
> May 19 16:13:25 <mmcgrath> ianweller: we'll be leaving the license alone.
> May 19 16:13:26 <quaid> ivazquez: OPL
> May 19 16:13:40 <quaid> sorry, that was ianweller
> May 19 16:14:06 <JonRob> quaid: i think this is definitely a good idea
> May 19 16:14:21 <JonRob> i'm not sure about down to the level of an individual
> May 19 16:14:21 <quaid> what I'm thinking of might be a plugin?
> May 19 16:14:27 <ianweller> once again, i'm getting the subproject
> headers setup.
> May 19 16:14:28 <JonRob> but certainly sub-project/sig
> May 19 16:14:33 <quaid> and could be implemented over time
> May 19 16:14:40 <quaid> in terms of automagic, that is
> May 19 16:15:07 <JonRob> ok, so obviously this is something that docs
> and websites are going to have to work closely on in the future?
> May 19 16:15:11 <quaid> yeah
> May 19 16:15:12 <juank_prada> but then individual pages wouldnt have
> owner which at the end would make all those ownership not to good
> May 19 16:15:44 <ianweller> i wouldn't have individual ownership, ifa
> page needs to be owned by *one* user they can make a subpage under
> User:username
> May 19 16:15:51 <ianweller> imho
> May 19 16:15:53 <quaid> juank_prada: right, there is one reason for
> going to the individual level.
> May 19 16:16:05 * stickster actually hopes that ownership becomes an
> outmoded concept on the wiki.
> May 19 16:16:11 <quaid> I'm not sure, haven't thought it through
> May 19 16:16:17 <quaid> stickster: now hold on son!
> May 19 16:16:20 <ianweller> stickster: agreed +1000000
> May 19 16:16:21 <ianweller> ;)
> May 19 16:16:24 <quaid> stickster: we don't have the concept right now
> May 19 16:16:39 * stickster thinking in terms of more authoring hands.
> May 19 16:16:52 <quaid> do you think that badging a page will deter
> contributions?
> May 19 16:17:07 <stickster> badging as in... individual, or a subproject?
> May 19 16:17:16 <quaid> whatever, really
> May 19 16:17:23 <stickster> The former more than the latter I think
> May 19 16:17:26 <quaid> if it feels like an individual is a problem,
> call it SIG/subproj
> May 19 16:17:32 <juank_prada> badging would make information more reliable imho
> May 19 16:17:49 <quaid> I'm thinking of accountability, mainly
> May 19 16:18:03 <quaid> I want to be able to run a tool that can
> detect when a page last lost sponsorship and become orphaned
> May 19 16:18:05 <ianweller> i think what would makeinformation more
> reliable is if it is actually reliable, per se ;)
> May 19 16:18:10 <quaid> maybe sponsor is the better terminology
> May 19 16:18:13 <stickster> ah
> May 19 16:18:19 <quaid> ah!
> May 19 16:18:28 <ianweller> whoever owns the page, who cares? its
> what's in the page that matters.
> May 19 16:18:42 <quaid> ianweller: several factors:
> May 19 16:18:43 <ianweller> if an edit needs to be made, i don't think
> you need to contact the owner, unless its policy
> May 19 16:18:47 <stickster> I'm thinking in terms of being a total new
> person with a yen to edit. I get my FAS2 setup, click over to the wiki
> and... "This page owned by John Public."
> May 19 16:18:49 <quaid> 1. too few people relied upon to watch the entire wiki
> May 19 16:18:58 <quaid> 2. possibility that page changes fall between the cracks
> May 19 16:19:10 <quaid> 3. some places get lots of watchers, others fewer
> May 19 16:19:10 <stickster> n00b .oO {Oops, is it still OK for me to edit?}
> May 19 16:19:22 <quaid> stickster: right!
> May 19 16:19:40 <quaid> how about, "This page is sponsored by the
> Astronomy SIG, please contact them if you have any questions while
> editing."
> May 19 16:20:00 <JonRob> quaid: i think that's perfect
> May 19 16:20:00 <juank_prada> sounds good to me
> May 19 16:20:04 <ianweller> can we do that in <!-- comments --> so it
> doesn't show up on the page?
> May 19 16:20:06 <JonRob> for people visitng the page that's all they
> need to know
> May 19 16:20:14 <ianweller> only while they'reediting?
> May 19 16:20:18 <stickster> As long as we are empowering people to "be bold."
> May 19 16:20:21 * ianweller hates this spacebar
> May 19 16:20:21 <quaid> ianweller: that's another possibility, sure; i
> see that value
> May 19 16:20:22 <JonRob> what's more important imho is that the
> sig/individual who owns it stays on top of their content
> May 19 16:20:37 <ianweller> JonRob: +1
> May 19 16:20:38 <JonRob> and keeps an eye to know that it's accurate/up-to date
> May 19 16:20:51 <quaid> JonRob: right, so it is a SIG role "the
> Documentor" who watches those pages for certain, and makes sure other
> SIG members do too
> May 19 16:21:10 <JonRob> quaid: yeah pretty much
> May 19 16:21:34 <mmcgrath> Side note to you guys, you should be able
> to actually log in to the wiki now at
> https://publictest2.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ with your FAS username and
> password.
> May 19 16:21:34 <quaid> so, then, the reason for having it visible in
> the read-only side
> May 19 16:21:46 <quaid> is to advertise that this is not abandoned
> content, etc. ... give it credibility
> May 19 16:22:00 <JonRob> quaid: that's a cool idea
> May 19 16:22:09 <JonRob> a big problem on the wiki now is knowing what's recent
> May 19 16:22:11 <quaid> fwiw, I would like automagic that put it in
> the edit notes, too, so one didn't have to reload if you forget :)
> May 19 16:22:30 <juank_prada> thats what i was thinking about reliability :P
> May 19 16:22:32 <JonRob> ok...so with this in mind
> May 19 16:22:41 * quaid sees Tasks being added ...
> May 19 16:22:42 <JonRob> is there something we can pull out of this to
> put on a task list :p
> May 19 16:22:46 <quaid> :D
> May 19 16:22:47 * fbijlsma has quit ("Leaving")
> May 19 16:22:47 <JonRob> lol yes
> May 19 16:23:01 <JonRob> would you like to add it and take ownership for it?
> May 19 16:23:04 <quaid> * research MW plugin to manage page sponsorship
> May 19 16:23:06 <JonRob> quaid that is
> May 19 16:23:26 <quaid> * visible badges to show sponsorship and make
> people feel empowered/emboldened and not afraid to edit
> May 19 16:23:27 <epkphoto> mmcgrath: so when users log in with FAS,
> will we still have separate wiki accounts, or will that be a things of
> the past?
> May 19 16:23:27 <JonRob> cool...if all are happy, shall we move on to
> the next agenda item?
> May 19 16:23:32 <ianweller> i don't think we need an extension.
> extensions just make things messy, we could just use a template.
> May 19 16:23:40 <ianweller> something like {{sponsor|Ian Weller}}
> May 19 16:23:49 * ianweller can write one fastlike
> May 19 16:23:55 <quaid> * process to get SIGs/Subprojs to sponsor pages
> May 19 16:24:04 <mmcgrath> epkphoto: a thing of the past.
> May 19 16:24:09 <epkphoto> cool
> May 19 16:24:19 <quaid> ianweller: interesting; we should talk about
> that out of the meeting :D
> May 19 16:24:25 <quaid> JonRob: those are the tasks I see
> May 19 16:24:35 <JonRob> ok quaid: are you happy to own those?
> May 19 16:24:46 <quaid> one for a designer, one for me (research
> plugin), and one for ... well, who "owns" sponsorship?
> May 19 16:24:49 <quaid> is that a Docs thing ?
> May 19 16:24:59 <JonRob> i would have thought so
> May 19 16:25:02 <quaid> research plugin == me + ianweller I hope :D
> May 19 16:25:05 <JonRob> in a wiki gardening role
> May 19 16:25:06 <JonRob> ok sure
> May 19 16:25:21 <quaid> ok, I'll handle/delegate that one
> May 19 16:25:24 <JonRob> i'll add them to the tasks list and ping the
> art list following the meeting to hunt down a designer owner
> May 19 16:25:27 <quaid> are you editing the tasks page?
> May 19 16:25:29 <quaid> thx !
> May 19 16:25:31 <JonRob> not now
> May 19 16:25:43 <quaid> ok, I'll let you add them to not get too many
> chefs in the soupcon
> May 19 16:25:43 <JonRob> right...next item!
> May 19 16:25:47 <quaid> rock!
> May 19 16:26:13 <JonRob> let's review the stuff that's on the task
> list now and see if people have progressed over the week, what we can
> do to help out etc!
> May 19 16:26:23 <JonRob> (woah, i def use too many "!")
> May 19 16:26:38 <ianweller> !!!!!
> May 19 16:26:41 * quaid wasn't teasing, he swears it's so!
> May 19 16:26:57 <JonRob> Juan and Craig, how have things gone with
> get-fedora lately?
> May 19 16:27:15 <giarc_w> nothing new to report, from me
> May 19 16:27:39 <JonRob> any questions or things you'd like help with?
> May 19 16:27:59 <JonRob> and any possibility of getting a date set for
> a draft version that we could start thinking about implementing?
> May 19 16:28:15 * stickster high-fives mmcgrath
> May 19 16:29:04 <giarc_w> well, i wonder if we are even on the right
> track with the work we have started, considering we are going to be
> pushing the i386live cd iso ?
> May 19 16:29:32 <giarc_w> what do people think?
> May 19 16:29:59 <JonRob> i personally thought that if we refined the
> language we had a pretty good direction
> May 19 16:30:10 * JonRob looks for link
> May 19 16:30:19 <juank_prada> not sure about what craig have done..
> ive been quite busy this week so i havent had the chance to work on
> that
> May 19 16:30:19 <juank_prada> thing is so far we have working and
> fancy get-fedora section
> May 19 16:30:25 <juank_prada> the "fancy" animations can quickly be
> removed and we would end up with something similar to what opensuse's
> webiste has right now
> May 19 16:30:30 <juank_prada> which is a 3 steps selection that i
> still think is a good thing to do for new users
> May 19 16:30:39 <giarc_w> right
> May 19 16:30:56 * juank_prada has quit ("Leaving")
> May 19 16:30:58 <giarc_w> the 'bling' can just be removed, and the
> basic idea is the same
> May 19 16:31:09 * juank_prada (n=juanky at 200.114.38.35) has joined
> #fedora-meeting
> May 19 16:31:17 <JonRob> even toned down bling could be a nice touch i think
> May 19 16:31:23 <giarc_w> http://craigt.fedorapeople.org/get-fedora-2/get-fedora
> May 19 16:31:37 <juank_prada> sorry... wireless here is not that good
> May 19 16:31:39 <juank_prada> did i miss something?
> May 19 16:31:56 <JonRob> nothing really, no
> May 19 16:32:04 <JonRob> ok, looking at it for myself
> May 19 16:32:15 <giarc_w> actually, wrong link: sorry
> May 19 16:32:18 <giarc_w> this is the latest:
> May 19 16:32:19
> <giarc_w> http://craigt.fedorapeople.org/get-fedora-drafts/get-fedora.html
> May 19 16:32:36 * JonRob looks at latest
> May 19 16:32:52 <mmcgrath> maybe next to "32 bit PC" we'll want to put
> "Normal Laptop and desktop computers)
> May 19 16:33:01 <juank_prada> +1
> May 19 16:33:01 <JonRob> mmcgrath: +1
> May 19 16:33:04 <ianweller> +1
> May 19 16:33:07 <giarc_w> yeah, the language def needs help
> May 19 16:33:13 <JonRob> a few simple changes to the language will
> make it much more newb friendly
> May 19 16:33:18 <ianweller> hey is there an easy way to check what bit
> processor you have on windows/mac?
> May 19 16:33:26 <ianweller> (mac with intel)
> May 19 16:33:58 <juank_prada> mac would be using x86_64... arent all
> those using intel core 2 duo?
> May 19 16:34:04 <JonRob> beyond that, if we toned down the bling and
> made the fonts a bit smaller
> May 19 16:34:09 <JonRob> i think we've got something good here
> May 19 16:34:21 <ianweller> juank_prada: i know that the ubuntu CDs
> have little labels saying what processor types go with what
> architechture
> May 19 16:34:23 <juank_prada> JonRob, font issue is fixed with current fp.o site
> May 19 16:34:26 <ianweller> iirc
> May 19 16:34:27 <JonRob> ok cool
> May 19 16:34:29 <giarc_w> (hm, the latest code is not there i
> guess...users could 'go back' and click previous steps and begin from
> that step)
> May 19 16:34:33 <mmcgrath> I think we shouldn't shy away from telling
> people to use i386 even though they have an x86_64 box.
> May 19 16:34:52 <mmcgrath> Kind of as a "if they don't know, just do i386"
> May 19 16:35:02 <juank_prada> yeah
> May 19 16:35:02 <ianweller> hmm. i think instead of having a vertical
> approach to doing that, why don't we do a horizontal slide, if we're
> using javascript anyway?
> May 19 16:35:28 <JonRob> so maybe at the start of the page we could
> have a "not sure? download this" link
> May 19 16:35:29 <giarc_w> mmcgrath, right, exactly...if they don't
> know we know it works
> May 19 16:35:32 <juank_prada> horizontal isn that great.. what if you
> need a click on the left nav menu
> May 19 16:35:37 <JonRob> along with a mirror list link for the pros
> May 19 16:35:51 <mmcgrath> I'm not sure how to word that. Its hard to
> say something like that in few words that will be translatable.
> May 19 16:35:54 <JonRob> and then we could jump into the automated
> choose your own adventure style for those who are in between
> May 19 16:35:57 <ianweller> juank_prada: what i'm thinking of is
> somethingl ike this, at the bottom of the page--
> http://my.deviantart.com/services/#subscription
> May 19 16:36:42 <juank_prada> JonRob, i think we should first settle
> thing about the top ten things to do with the website before focusing
> on get-fedora
> May 19 16:36:47 <ianweller> except more progressive, not tab-like
> May 19 16:37:06 <juank_prada> ianweller, oh i se.. nice thing :)
> May 19 16:37:27 <JonRob> juank_prada
> May 19 16:37:38 <JonRob> i believe we were carrying both these tasks in parallel
> May 19 16:37:48 <JonRob> but nobody stepped up as owner for the new
> look and feel task
> May 19 16:37:54 * mmcgrath brb, phone
> May 19 16:38:07 <JonRob> but, i agree you have a point here
> May 19 16:38:26 <giarc_w> we need artists for new look and feel, no ?
> May 19 16:38:37 <JonRob> yeah, i was hoping mizmo would be here today
> May 19 16:39:00 <JonRob> everyone saw this post right:
> May 19 16:39:00
> <JonRob> https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-websites-list/2008-May/msg00094.html
> May 19 16:39:01 * ianweller could maybe do something.
> May 19 16:39:16 <JonRob> just quickly before we move on
> May 19 16:39:21 <juank_prada> yeah
> May 19 16:39:26 <juank_prada> thats what im talking about
> May 19 16:39:29 <JonRob> can i poll people on there thoughts on get-fedora
> May 19 16:39:53 <JonRob> is this a task that's worth progressing with
> before we have the new look and feel in place?
> May 19 16:40:18 <juank_prada> if we are making changes to other
> sections like the front page... we might end up with a one click
> download in there so it wont be necesary to do it again in the
> get-fedora
> May 19 16:40:24 * tibbs has quit ("Konversation terminated!")
> May 19 16:40:32 <JonRob> juank_prada
> May 19 16:40:33 <quaid> juank_prada: except for the people who want
> more than one click :)
> May 19 16:40:47 <JonRob> and also that we're putting
> get.fedoraproject.org on cds and websties
> May 19 16:41:05 <JonRob> along with join.fedoraproject.org, i think
> these are the two main domains we agreed upon
> May 19 16:41:12 <quaid> right, we do need a comprehensive get it page
> May 19 16:41:20 <juank_prada> quaid, of course.. what i mean is... if
> we are showing the one click method in the front page it wont be
> needed in the get-fedora so we can focus on the long process
> May 19 16:41:23 * mmcgrath back
> May 19 16:41:41 <quaid> juank_prada: still, we'll need some form of it
> May 19 16:41:44 <ianweller> i think we need a large banner that
> prompts the user to i686 gnome live CD on both the index page and
> get-fedora, since that's the most popular, and then on the index page
> a link to "more architechtures and downloads", and on get-fedora, its
> just right there ina javascript selector under that
> May 19 16:41:46 <quaid> for people who come via get.fp.o
> May 19 16:42:14 <abadger1999> "more architectures, more choices"
> May 19 16:42:15 <quaid> it seems safe to work on this task in parallel
> with the new look/feel
> May 19 16:42:22 <ianweller> abadger1999: +1 :D
> May 19 16:42:26 <JonRob> so long as everything is css themeable
> May 19 16:42:31 <JonRob> and compatible with the rest of fp.o
> May 19 16:42:55 <giarc_w> the css is re-used already, we have just
> added javascript
> May 19 16:43:01 <giarc_w> and not in the markup
> May 19 16:43:04 <JonRob> giarc_w: ok cool
> May 19 16:43:08 <quaid> the only risk
> May 19 16:43:09 <giarc_w> one .js file
> May 19 16:43:16 <quaid> is if the new look forces horiz or vert
> May 19 16:43:18 <quaid> :)
> May 19 16:43:28 * quaid is quiet now
> May 19 16:43:32 <JonRob> ok...
> May 19 16:43:48 <giarc_w> the markup so far is simple <ul>s , so they
> should flow with new page layouts
> May 19 16:44:20 <JonRob> i'm happy to leave this with juank_prada and
> giarc_w for now
> May 19 16:44:27 <JonRob> and come back to it again next week
> May 19 16:44:34 <JonRob> i know we haven't made a lot of definite progress
> May 19 16:44:38 * cyberpear
> (n=cyberpea at pool-71-191-60-156.washdc.east.verizon.net) has joined
> #fedora-meeting
> May 19 16:44:53 <JonRob> but i'm not we're likely to achieve much more in here
> May 19 16:45:04 <JonRob> better to discuss on the list, brainstorm more ideas
> May 19 16:45:10 <JonRob> and keep trying until we find something we like?
> May 19 16:45:27 <juank_prada> yeap that sounds good we cant decide
> based only on one idea
> May 19 16:45:27 <JonRob> and perhaps blog it on planet, and get feed
> back from plenty of other people too
> May 19 16:46:06 <JonRob> if it's OK then, we'll move on?
> May 19 16:46:14 <giarc_w> ok with me
> May 19 16:46:25 <JonRob> although i fear we're going to end up with a
> similar discussion next
> May 19 16:46:27 <juank_prada> giarc_w, would you work on mizmo's
> desgin (the one showed in a paper) ? and i start working on something
> else to show?
> May 19 16:46:53 <JonRob> juank_prada: did you make progress with a
> list of items that we need to do to create a spins.fp.o site?
> May 19 16:46:57 <giarc_w> the .pdf she scanned in from a her notebook ? :)
> May 19 16:47:03 <giarc_w> yes
> May 19 16:47:05 <giarc_w> i will
> May 19 16:47:14 <juank_prada> giarc_w, great :)
> May 19 16:47:37 <juank_prada> JonRob, well i wrote a note to the ml
> asking some questions that need to be answered imho
> May 19 16:47:44 * JonRob notes he has a 2100 cut-off, looks for
> somebody else who's willing to lead when i vanish
> May 19 16:47:52 <JonRob> juank_prada: i saw that
> May 19 16:48:06 <JonRob> shall we pick this point up on the list then
> following the meeting?
> May 19 16:48:31 <JonRob> if we start the ball rolling, others are sure
> to join in the conversation :)
> May 19 16:48:31 <juank_prada> thing is.. we need to answer that in
> order to start working on a script to build the site or something else
> May 19 16:48:48 <JonRob> juank_prada: that's cool, we'll take it from there then
> May 19 16:49:04 <juank_prada> as right now i cant seem that we have a
> clear idea on what to do with spinis
> May 19 16:49:30 <JonRob> shall we move on?
> May 19 16:49:39 <juank_prada> yeap
> May 19 16:49:46 <JonRob> ricky's not here
> May 19 16:50:04 <JonRob> so giarc_w - did you have a chance to think
> about the domain list and a common look and feel
> May 19 16:50:17 <JonRob> or are we going to hold on this until we have
> new look and feel (tm) in place
> May 19 16:50:52 <juank_prada> JonRob, ricky wanted us to talk about
> licensing/policy about templatings and CSS
> May 19 16:51:02 <JonRob> juank_prada - yep we're getting there
> May 19 16:51:05 <JonRob> it's on the agenda :)
> May 19 16:51:23 <juank_prada> oh.. sorry ^^
> May 19 16:51:38 <giarc_w> i have, but have no progress on actual work yet
> May 19 16:52:03 * tw2113 (n=tw2113 at host-194-154-111-24.midco.net) has
> joined #fedora-meeting
> May 19 16:52:09 <JonRob> ok no problem, we'll revisit this next week too then?
> May 19 16:52:16 <giarc_w> yes please :)
> May 19 16:52:24 <tw2113> michaelbeckwith present and accounted for sir *salutes*
> May 19 16:52:41 <JonRob> right, last on tasks is the new look and feel
> May 19 16:52:46 <JonRob> (hey tw2113 :))
> May 19 16:53:18 <JonRob> is somebody willing to take this up and chase
> it with art to get a definite plan in place?
> May 19 16:53:20 <tw2113> i wanted to be here and on time, but had
> someone show up late, so i got to cover and whatnot
> May 19 16:53:28 <JonRob> np
> May 19 16:54:18 <juank_prada> JonRob, i thin mizmo is working on some
> usability test to start working on look and feel of the site
> May 19 16:54:30 <juank_prada> but it would be better to ask her
> May 19 16:54:34 <JonRob> ok cool - i'll try and follow up with her
> May 19 16:54:42 * viking-ice_
> (n=johannbg at 85-220-82-146.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is) has joined
> #fedora-meeting
> May 19 16:54:53 <JonRob> and i'll parse that conversation and get it
> into a comprehensible form!
> May 19 16:55:18 <JonRob> oh gosh we're only half way through the agenda!
> May 19 16:55:32 <tw2113> link plz
> May 19 16:55:41 <JonRob> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Websites/Meetings
> May 19 16:55:43 <JonRob> i have to go
> May 19 16:55:58 <JonRob> can i ask someone to take over for me?
> May 19 16:56:34 * giarc_w needs to head to a meeting in 5, maybe if we
> are only .5 way, we continue next week ?
> May 19 16:56:50 <JonRob> show of hands?
> May 19 16:57:05 <JonRob> some of the stuff is going to be a pretty
> invovled discusion
> May 19 16:57:08 <JonRob> some will be much quicker
> May 19 16:57:13 <epkphoto> +1 continue next week
> May 19 16:57:16 <JonRob> and at least one item can go entirely!
> May 19 16:57:25 <giarc_w> +1 if we can get the license question sorted now ?
> May 19 16:57:35 <ianweller> +1, agree with giarc_w
> May 19 16:57:41 <JonRob> can someone take that for me....really have to run!
> May 19 16:57:46 <JonRob> i'll keep logging
> May 19 16:57:46 <giarc_w> ok
> May 19 16:57:52 <JonRob> and post minutes etc tomorrow
> May 19 16:57:55 <giarc_w> thanks JonRob
> May 19 16:57:58 <JonRob> np
> May 19 16:58:00 <giarc_w> I need to run as well,
> May 19 16:58:01 <JonRob> thanks for coming all
> May 19 16:58:05 <JonRob> bye!!
> May 19 16:58:09 <juank_prada> bye :)
> May 19 16:58:10 <giarc_w> so, what license is our websites code under ?
> May 19 16:58:33 <giarc_w> we have had more than one question on the
> m-l and from users wanting to use the code
> May 19 16:58:48 <giarc_w> we should also have that info on the site,
> should we not ?
> May 19 16:59:03 <epkphoto> well, the static pages say, "All Rights Reserved."
> May 19 16:59:14 <juank_prada> it should be in the footer or in the Legal link
> May 19 16:59:22 <ianweller> or both
> May 19 16:59:50 <epkphoto> "We are working on licensing the texts of
> this website. Texts contributed after 2006-02-19 or by members of the
> EditGroup are licensed under the terms of the Open Publication
> License v1.0 without options, except where otherwise noted. All other
> content is not licensed for copying or redistribution, except where
> otherwise noted."
> May 19 16:59:54 <juank_prada> well.. coyright isnt exactly for
> templating ist it?
> May 19 16:59:56 <epkphoto> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal
> May 19 17:00:30 <juank_prada> why is the legal note in the wiki too?
> May 19 17:00:46 <ianweller> because i put it there
> May 19 17:00:51 * abadger1999 (n=abadger1 at 136.245.7.181) has left
> #fedora-meeting
> May 19 17:01:00 <ianweller> should wedo something different?
> May 19 17:01:02 <giarc_w> ok, well does the word 'Text' cover our
> markup/css/js ?
> May 19 17:01:27 <giarc_w> i read that as content, not code, but i have
> no idea with such matters
> May 19 17:01:29 <juank_prada> shouldnt it be a static page along with
> the rest of the site to be translated too?
> May 19 17:01:44 * epkphoto has quit ()
> May 19 17:01:47 <tw2113> i don't think markup/css can be copyrighted, personally
> May 19 17:01:58 <ianweller> its code, code can be copyrighted
> May 19 17:02:04 <giarc_w> sure it can
> May 19 17:02:05 * abadger1999 (n=abadger1 at 136.245.7.181) has joined
> #fedora-meeting
> May 19 17:02:06 <juank_prada> giarc_w, i think that are two different
> things... one is the code and another is the content shown
> May 19 17:02:13 <tw2113> one of the best ways to learn and be inspired
> is by looking at the markup and whatnot of others
> May 19 17:02:14 <giarc_w> juank_prada, right
> May 19 17:02:32 <ianweller> tw2113: you can be 'inspired' without
> breaking copyright, most of thetime ;)
> May 19 17:02:35 * epkphoto (n=epkphoto at 129.21.241.155) has joined
> #fedora-meeting
> May 19 17:02:37 <giarc_w> and i am not sure that legal stmnt is
> covering both, is it ?
> May 19 17:02:46 <juank_prada> dont think so
> May 19 17:02:52 <juank_prada> it talks about content
> May 19 17:02:56 <juank_prada> not code or styles
> May 19 17:03:09 <giarc_w> ok, so the short answer seems to be 'we
> don't know' what license the code us under?
> May 19 17:03:22 <ianweller> you can copyright art, and html/css is in
> its own right 'art', so you can copyright html/css
> May 19 17:03:34 <ianweller> oh wait that's not the argument.
> May 19 17:03:35 * ianweller hides
> May 19 17:03:40 <tw2113> something i remember reading about in a legal
> type statement for freelancing, was the idea of a client trying to
> copyright an entire website, but the freelancer stated that he's going
> to take the code stuff with him and modify as he saw fit, or
> something, for other projects he gets
> May 19 17:04:25 <juank_prada> tw2113, is hard to copyright code in a
> website as pretty much all websites are coded the same way
> May 19 17:04:44 <tw2113> not worth the bother to try and copyright
> that part, if you ask me
> May 19 17:04:52 * nim-nim (n=nim-nim at fedora/nim-nim) has joined #fedora-meeting
> May 19 17:05:40 <juank_prada> i remember someone letting know in the
> ml that the template could be used as a base ...
> May 19 17:06:37 <giarc_w> yeah, the sentiment is share it, but i don't
> think we are explicit about that anywhere
> May 19 17:06:58 <juank_prada> we should decide how to license that....
> and just paste it into the legal notes
> May 19 17:07:28 <ianweller> isn't there something in the CLA about it?
> May 19 17:07:38 <ianweller> since everybody who contributed to it was
> under the CLA, afaik
> May 19 17:08:41 <giarc_w> ok, can someone chase that ? and find out if
> 'fedora' has a license for the web sites code already and what it is?
> and if not, what that will be
> May 19 17:09:18 <juank_prada> we should post the ml... marketing and
> websites somebody have to know
> May 19 17:09:19 <giarc_w> i suspect the license is not our choice, but
> mandated by higherups
> May 19 17:09:25 <giarc_w> right
> May 19 17:09:54 <ianweller> talk to RH legal?
> May 19 17:10:13 <giarc_w> ...something like that i guess, i don't know who
> May 19 17:10:16 <juank_prada> ianweller, sound a logic thing to do
> May 19 17:10:53 * giarc_w needs to get going, already late
> May 19 17:11:03 <giarc_w> see you all later
> May 19 17:11:16 <quaid> hmm
> May 19 17:11:25 <quaid> well, the CLA is there as a fall back in the
> case of no license
> May 19 17:11:46 <juank_prada> giarc_w, see you later :)
> May 19 17:11:50 <quaid> and it grants a copyright license to do a
> bunch of stuff, and it applies to all contributions including the
> html/css most likely
> May 19 17:12:05 <quaid> it would be better, IMO, to declare an actual
> license we prefer
> May 19 17:12:15 <quaid> and as the originators of the code and runners
> of the project on fedorahosted.org
> May 19 17:12:28 <quaid> afaik we can choose any license that is
> acceptable to Fedora.
> May 19 17:12:52 <quaid> that is, licensing of upstream software is at
> the discretion of the actual upstream itself, which in this case is
> the Websites subproject, right?
> May 19 17:13:02 <juank_prada> yeap
> May 19 17:13:24 <quaid> I mean, we could go back and get approval from
> everyone in the chain, but it's arguable that the CLA covers that
> already, and if we don't choose a bad license ...
> May 19 17:13:24 <juank_prada> so... shal we decide?
> May 19 17:13:36 <quaid> well, looks like too many people are gone from
> this meeting
> May 19 17:13:48 <quaid> but it could be resolved with an on list discussion
> May 19 17:14:24 <juank_prada> alrite then...
> May 19 17:15:10 <juank_prada> we should really end this meeting now
> and settle thing in the ml or next meeting... no progress es being
> made
> May 19 17:15:23 <quaid> +1
> May 19 17:15:28 <ianweller> +1
> May 19 17:15:30 <epkphoto> +1
> May 19 17:15:31 <ianweller> (or talk to RH legal.)
> May 19 17:15:46 <ianweller> i figure that's the safest
> May 19 17:16:00 * mether has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
> May 19 17:16:33 <tw2113> works for me
> May 19 17:17:04 <ivazquez> ISTM that licensing of the web stuff is
> indeed Fedora's domain. Perhaps it should be brought up to the board?
> May 19 17:17:31 <ivazquez> Hrm, wait. The web stuff falls under the CLA.
> May 19 17:17:41 <ivazquez> Alright, RH legal it is.
> May 19 17:18:24 * nim-ni1 has quit (Connection timed out)
> May 19 17:20:36 * mether (n=ask at fedora/mether) has joined #fedora-meeting
> May 19 17:21:40 * juank_prada has quit ("Leaving")
> May 19 17:21:54 * juank_prada (n=juanky at 200.114.38.35) has joined
> #fedora-meeting
> May 19 17:23:06 <quaid> ivazquez: by RH Legal, you mean what?
> May 19 17:23:56 <ivazquez> We should figure out if it's possible to
> put the website layout under another license independent of the CLA.
> May 19 17:24:07 <quaid> this is an interesting question, so far I
> think everyone has just picked a license.
> May 19 17:24:10 <quaid> ah, possible.
> May 19 17:24:42 * quaid doesn't see why not but INAL
> May 19 17:24:52 <ivazquez> Likewise.
> May 19 17:25:13 <quaid> although the just lettiing anyone pick a
> license is how we ended up with the GNU FDL 1.0 *spit* on Fedora Docs
> May 19 17:25:22 * mdomsch has quit ("Leaving")
> May 19 17:25:37 <ivazquez> If we can, then we should decide what to
> put it under and then let the board have the final yea or nay.
> May 19 17:25:56 <quaid> so, we assign that to spot and ask him nicely
> to find out for us and bring back a license recommendation or
> requirement
> May 19 17:26:05 <ivazquez> Agreed.
> May 19 17:26:19 * J5_ (n=quintice at nat/redhat-us/x-495ab33371d438ce)
> has joined #fedora-meeting
> May 19 17:26:19 * J5 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
> May 19 17:27:50 <ivazquez> Alright, I suppose we're done for now then.
> May 19 17:28:01 <ivazquez> </meeting>
>
> --
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